Tim is a good friend of mine and even though it is a long drive for me, if I am healthy, I might go race it to support him. Would be great if you and Mark could come.

So you are another older person with a run problem? :) Sorry to hear but the statics do not lie.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

yeah, i don't really know him, but he stepped out big when he left kirkwood to buy and run china peak. at the beginning of the biggest drought in recorded california history. so, yeah, i'd love to see if we can help bring him some summer business and, really, that place ought to be an endurance sport disneyland in the summer.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

You could look at it that way. Or you could look at it as giving a curious newcomer a cheaper alternative than requiring a full year membership.

I'm also a member of the Sports Car Club of America. Annual dues are +/- $90, depending on your region and level of membership. Membership is required to compete in a sanctioned event like an autocross or rallycross. For non-member newbies just wanting to try an event, " 'Weekend' Memberships" (actually 5 days) are available for, you guessed it, $15. You can apply up to two Weekend Memberships towards a Annual Membership upgrade, as long as they were purchased within the last 60 days.

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"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"

Chris M
You can thank Annika, as she was the person who advised me....
Pete

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2017 Cervelo P2
2017 Cervelo S2
itraininla.com
#itraininla

i would be happy looking at it that way if we had something other than fewer people participating than last year. and last year was below the year before. and so on for the last 4 years.

i'm not saying that 1-day fees are the reason. but i have been complaining about this for about the last 5 years, predicting this. our service fees are too high. people vote with their feet. they're voting. against us. so, we can tell them what a great deal they're getting. or we could take the approach that it's our behavior, not theirs, that needs to be reconsidered.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So what would you discount it to specifically for the events you are talking about.

If your suggesting like $5-$8 for a 1 day license to do a $50 pool sprint, ok cool. But I also think you would have to acknowledge you likely lose that person to doing annual fee if "cost" is really this big of a deal. Because $8 for beginners would likely view it as "wow so I can do 6 races before I need to be a member financially".

So I get what your saying and agree with what your saying. But at the same time at some point there has to be line in sand so that it doesn't devalue the actual membership.

So again are we down to $3-7 difference as the breaking point of whether people would do it or not. $10 if you think pool sprint should be $5 license fee.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I'll tell you one thing you get that I did not see mentioned here, you push the profit margin for the RD. This has been the dirty little secret(at least was) that if you sign up for a race, pay the one day fee and then don't show up, the RD keeps that money. In some races that is $1000's of dollars. After the race is over the RD goes through and pulls out all the no shows(maybe even DNF's) and then pays the one day fees to USAT. Unless the system has changed, that is what I remember used to happen.

And it makes sense in that the athlete did not take advantage of the USAT insurance by not showing up, but shouldn't said athlete get that money back? Just saying....

I cringe when I see confusion on race morning or packet pickup for first timers on the fees. It seems like it could be a very simple math formula to bake these fees into races in terms of how many people are typically members of USAT and how many one-day licenses you spend. Average it out, bake it into the race fees ... the RD pays USAT a certain amount and we're done.

The downside, of course, is you've deincentivized people from buying the yearly membership to avoid paying the race-by-race fees. But again, I think math ultimately solves this problem.

Hidden or add-on fees suck. I don't think people say "screw this sport" because of them, but they're annoying and don't make for a great first impression from people who are already likely nervous and intimidated walking into their first race.

Whenever the USAT fees pop up in conversation, I always compare it to other "Olympic" sports in which I've competed. There is a broad range of fee structures, but most only require you to pay some form of membership in order to be included in the national or international pool of athletes; kind of the entry into an being (or attempting to be) an elite (at least in your age group). Not sure how swimming jibes, but it seems to me that USAT took its cues from USAC: if you want to race at all, you must be targeting that top 1%, therefore must be a member of some stripe. USAT calls being included in the rankings a feature, but, realistically, that just isn't the case. The problem is that the vast majority of people taking part in triathlon view it more as pursuit of a healthy lifestyle, rather than trying to make it to the Olympics or (de facto) Kona. You can run a 5k, 10k, or marathon every weekend of the year and never (directly) pay USATF, even if the course is certified. Not typically the case with triathlon.

I can absolutely see the case for USAT certification from the RD perspective. Much less so from the "casual competitor" perspective.

Other than running, my primary lens for this is versus wrestling in which (until you hit the senior/Olympic/masters age) you can compete in folkstyle meets without paying any USAW dues, but you need to be a member to compete events that channel/funnel you to being a part of team USA. At the senior/Olympic age, there are basically no "weekend warrior" events and scant few at the masters level. But that is due to the nature of the sport and general public perception. It just never had its version of Jim Fixx.

to me, it's not the money. it truly is "the thought that counts." we have migrated from a sport that used to welcome beginners and first timers toward competitive bike racing:

- we read 1st person accounts of how a black person does a triathlon and feels isolated and borderline unwelcome. what that black person doesn't know is that almost everybody feels that way now in his or her first race unless brought by friends. too many of us hang out with our clubs under our custom printed pop up tents. very few of us walk up to people who look like they might be first timers or, at least, at the race alone, with an outstretched hand: "hi, my name is dan. how was your race today?"

- we do a poor job of explaining the simplest of the rules so, predictably, we have a lot of people who pass on the right, ride on the left, don't understand the draft zone and so forth. so we yell at them, of course, for what they did, rather than educate them on what we take for granted but they don't know.

- likewise doping. waaaay too many people still think if a doctor prescribes it it's legal for competition, because USAT completely washes its hands of anti-doping education and newcomers don't even know what USADA is.

in short, we are no longer a welcoming sport. if we explained that we have a newcomers program that includes discounts, and information, and community building, and instruction, and smiles, and answers, that would solve it. we explain that for your first race you get *this* and this includes a discount on your one-day fee. i don't care if the discount is $5. it at least is a recognition that the costs add up and we're cognizant of that.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I always compare it to other "Olympic" sports in which I've competed. There is a broad range of fee structures, but most only require you to pay some form of membership in order to be included in the national or international pool of athletes
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Most triathletes have had experience with running events through USATF. Entry fees are rather cheap. The required paperwork before the race is minimal. The entry fee posted is exactly what you pay (unless you're using one of those online registration companies that charge a ridiculous amount for 'processing'- but that's a different thread). The RD pays USATF for the insurance and the courses are certified by an official that comes out and measures the course.

Triathlon's additional fees do not guarantee that the course was accurate or even measured. Most will not see any actual benefit from the membership fee. The fees typically go towards people that do very little to grow the amateur side of the sport.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

The whining post that will never die...
It could be worse. It could be mandatory membership if you wanted to compete. Just about every single NGB has some sort of "one day fee" if one does not buy an annual membership. No one forces you to do USAT sanctioned events. That's what makes this system work OK. If you want to race a USAT sanctioned race you can. If you don't you can. Try cycling races that are not USAC.

I choose to support "my" NGBs (USAT, USAC, USA Swimming, USMS). I buy an annual membership, get a magazine, accident insurance, voting rights & some warm fuzzies knowing I'm supporting Olympic athletes.

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#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

Na, that's not true.

(Edit) although I agree with all your other points, just not the summation tagline (/edit)

Whenever you enter any new group/sport/tribe/whatever you've gotta spend some time understanding thier ways/rules/etiquette.

Tri's got some tent-clique stuff, but that's negilgable, overall its really welcoming.

yep

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Most will not see any actual benefit from the membership fee. The fees typically go towards people that do very little to grow the amateur side of the sport.

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No actually most are too lazy to use the benefits that are attached with the membership.

ETA: If you travel and stay in a hotel or flight once a year, your discount that can gain from it likely covers half your fee on one tri trip. So this whole narrative that members receive no benefits or your paying all these elites and staff members is mostly bullshit. Just because you don't think the value is there doesn't give you the right to make up information.

ETA # 2- here is what USAT publishes as money spent (on the dollar).

$1 total:
.02- volunteer support
.04- IT
.04- Region support
.04- Grassroots
.05- Para triathlon
.06- Marketing/communications
.09- RD, officials, coaching education
.10- National Team Programs
.15- National office operations
.16- services to local sanctioned vents
.24- membership services/benefits


So like I said that's what they are putting out there. Want to call their bluff, I'm all for it, show us where/how; not just ST members talking. Show where the amateurs are getting screwed.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

pretty harsh words for your fellows! can you show me where on USAT's website i can access this benefit? i see the page with the list of benefits. i see the travel discounts. i'm not seeing it as clearly as you're explaining it. a little help?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Not harsh words, jusy tired of people talking as if it's gospel. If USAT is screwing amateurs just show us how/where?

Here is usat's funding per dollar. So I'm showing you what your money goes toward. Want to come up with a different narrative, great...just show us where the screw job is happening at.

https://www.teamusa.org/...ECFBC11CF369D4919A1A


ETA: Here is the breakdown if you dont click the link. It's per 1 dollar. All I can tell you is this is what they tell us. If you want to say they are full of shit, ok fine. Just show me where it's happening at. That's my whole point. Everyone talks about members not having much benefits or amateurs are screwed over. How?

$1 total:
.02- volunteer support
.04- IT
.04- Region support
.04- Grassroots
.05- Para triathlon
.06- Marketing/communications
.09- RD, officials, coaching education
.10- National Team Programs
.15- National office operations
.16- services to local sanctioned vents
.24- membership services/benefits

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Be careful, if you provide facts, how will these folks continue to bitch? Right, they never listen to facts. :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

you said the very people who YOU depend on to pay membership fees are liars (they make up information), they're lazy, and what they're saying is "bullshit." i consider those harsh words when spoken to the very people you need to pay up so that you can enjoy the benefits that USAT provides. me, i would speak to them in a different tone. but that's up to you.

and that goes for you, too, dave. and i say this as someone who does believe in the value of the annual membership, and i've had an annual membership off and on for many years, even in years i don't race. i don't dispute the value of the membership. i just don't see the reason to castigate those who are questioning the value.

now, to the question i asked. where is it that this travel benefit is described? "If you travel and stay in a hotel or flight once a year, your discount that can gain from it likely covers half your fee on one tri trip." can you show me how to access this? because i'm not seeing it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Nice breakdown, but where is the money that goes to pad the bank account? Last I saw they had 10's of millions in savings, how could that be if each and every dollar is spent and accounted for?

Dan there is no way that I am going to sit back and let a small group of snowflake bullies continue to attack USAT without pushing back. Why should they get an open platform to just foam at the mouth about USAT? We do not need these kind of folks in our sport. The only place I see this is on ST. I do not hear these negative folks at races. So if you think that challenging these folks is castigation, well, I guess we can agree to disagree.

No group or person is perfect. But, I would rather try to work with things than always be attacking. Nothing wrong with tough questions, which I love to ask. But if the intent is just to be negative,.. And what do these few do to help our sport? Do they help at races? Do they engage with USAT with ideas for improvement?
I have been around ST long enough to know these are the same folks who just always see life half empty, and many can just hide behind their keyboards since you do not force folks to use real names.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Good question, as I said, I can only show you what they provide. If you have the info to show then show it. That's my whole point. If the screw is on, just show where it's happening at.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So, let me see if I understand this correctly: As an amateur triathlete, more money goes towards National Team stuff than towards actual membership services and you want me to be happy with a potential hotel/ flight discount, even though I don't fly or stay in hotels?

I think you're falling into the same rut as USAT. The clients aren't happy and expressing why. Then, you guys are telling us why we're wrong. None of the benefits offered by USAT appeal to me as an athlete (I suppose that means I'm too lazy to use them). The benefits don't even apply to athletes purchasing a 1-day membership fee, which makes you wonder what the 1-day'ers get for their money (since it's not really covered in your expense report). The stuff I want from USAT (certified courses, more efficient officiating) aren't happening.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Are those numbers audited? Do they even have audited financial statements?

If not, they are not worth the PDF they were created in.

Nope, I do not believe the majority of clients are unhappy. There are always a few that no matter what, will bitch, always.

So, if you have some facts that show the majority of "clients" are unhappy, please post some data. And a reduction in USAT memberships does not show anything in specific other than all sports grow and contract over time.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep