Why not pay for an annual license?

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no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

dave, please, take the snowflake verbiage to the lavender room. these aren't bullies. they're questioners. based on USAT's own math that brooks quoted ($.24 toward member benefits) as well as i can tell USAT is spending about $4 million a year for these benefits and that's not including salaries (because USAT appears to place this in a different cost bucket).

we need all kinds of folks in our sport.

good idea, dave. i agree with you.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Dan,

I spoke in a different tone at the beginning of this entire thread. Someone asked what $15 membership got them. I said exactly what they wanted- access to a membership race + insurance from said race that they weren't a member of. In the same light, if you go to Lifetime fitness, you have to pay a guest fee to enter. People then said even after that very statement of fact, that they dont see any benefit from the $15 membership fee. The benefit is simply being able to race a race for which you aren't a member of. I'm not sure where the discount is?

Dan are you asking where you access the membership benefits? That will be when you login to your account. Then click on "my account"....Next page look on the right under "exclusive sponsor discounts". That will bring up the sponsor page.

Partner Discounts- 13 company discounts for training (trainingpeaks, QR, 2xu, etc)

Travel Discounts- 4 company discounts for flights, and rental cars (apparently i mis-spoke no longer are hotels on there)

Supplier Discounts- 3 different companies under this part (not sure of what they provide or used any of them).

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Triathlon/Membership-Services/Benefits/Discounts/Member-Discounts

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

i know where the member benefits page sits. i just linked to it. it's just that my ears perked up when you said if i travel and stay in a hotel that i get half my annual membership money back. i just don't see that.

so, i just don't think calling me (or anyone) lazy and a bullshitter and a liar because we don't recognize that these values is helpful, because i really don't think there is a travel value that i can access. there are far easier ways to achieve value for hotel rooms, rental cars, and airlines.

were i running USAT i would stop all that running around looking for phantom discounts and instead focus ALL my attention on getting bikes to races cheap.

i've just been elected the president of our industry association, and i'm taking a different tack. rather than telling folks they should be TBI members because of patriotism or some such thinking, i'm going to try to generate real value that attaches to membership. the only reason people are annual members of USAT is because they need annual membership to attend a particular race, or because it's cheaper than several 1-days. the last time i polled, 5 percent of slowtwitchers said they'd be annual USAT members if such membership sat above and beyond a fee for race insurance. in other words, there is virtually no recognition of a member benefit.

therefore, there either needs to be a member benefit, or if there is then USAT ought to to a better job of explaining it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I guess we again can agree to disagree. I know what these folks are, and I use the correct words to identify them. These folks never use facts, just attack.
So if you can show me any of them that use facts, not fake news, but real facts we can all cross check, then great, they would just be questions.
But they are making accusations, assumptions, etc without any facts that can be cross checked to back them up. Just like I see all the time in the media now which is basically nothing more than fake news. Sure would hate to see ST be nothing more than that also.

So, as is being asked, can you or anyone else provide facts that can be crossed checked for these negative comments being made about USAT? I am all ears.
Are they perfect? Nope. Could anyone that is complaining do a better job? Probably not.

Let's take the example that was posted recently about USAT rankings and how they are not done either in a timely manner or at all. Folks, as usual, starting posting and attacking USAT for this. Well, I even had a person who had been posting the negative stuff on ST PM with the issues, his facts, about why USAT was 100% at fault.
I took the initiative to write the USAT ranking group with this persons concerns on races and asked for status. They got back to me twice in the same day and guess what, one of the results have never been sent and received even though this guy said the RD had sent weeks ago. On the second race,USAT had found differences between what was sent to them and what the RD had posted on their website for results and had asked the RD for clarification . I thought this was a great going beyond by the USAT ranking group. I sent this info back to the person who did not say much back to me. I said I thought he should go back on ST and apologize since he had made accusations about the USAT ranking group on ST that were totally false. Nothing happened so I then posted what USAT sent me back. Did anyone respond that wow, that was great that USAT was doing a great job trying to make sure things were correct before posting rankings? Nope. Why not????????

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

: As an amateur triathlete, more money goes towards National Team stuff than towards actual membership services and you want me to be happy with a potential hotel/ flight discount, even though I don't fly or stay in hotels?


Can you explain that to me. 10 % goes toward national team (which is the elites); 24% goes towards member services, or am i reading my own chart wrong? US National Team Programs and National Office Operations aren't the same. Many of the people that you email when you have an issue are part of the national office operations and do nothing with "elites". Could you claify?



---------------------------------------
The clients aren't happy and expressing why. Then, you guys are telling us why we're wrong. None of the benefits offered by USAT appeal to me as an athlete (I suppose that means I'm too lazy to use them).


What helmet do you wear? Do you use body glide? Do you use online training? What tri suit do you wear? Use tape for recovery? There are 13 different discounts that are specific to help athletes, if you can't find 1 of them to use, fair enough.



The benefits don't even apply to athletes purchasing a 1-day membership fee, which makes you wonder what the 1-day'ers get for their money (since it's not really covered in your expense report).

I already showed you what you got for the 1 day fee. Access to a member service that you arent a current member for. That's it. Doesn't need to be more, doesnt need to be less. You are an athlete wanting to do a race that you aren't a member for. You are going to have to pay for that opportunity. That's fair right? Now you may want it for less and great, I understand that.




The stuff I want from USAT (certified courses, more efficient officiating) aren't happening.


Great things to want, and course certs are one I read about a lot on here. Officiating I think is always going to be an issue because it's volunteer based. That's likely one of the last things they'll ever be able to fix.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I guess I continue to be in the minority in your opinion. With my membership I Get the USAT magazine, which I love to read, and think it is the best about our sport.
I have yet to use any of the discount USAT has, but I might in the future. I love the USAT ranking process that allows me to compare myself to others across the country for fun. I love that I am not forced to go to Nationals to try and get a TeamUSA spot but can try and work my butt off and get a decent ranking position to get a TeamUSA spot with a roll down, which I have had happen many times. I love that USAT can provide officials for races to try and make them as fair and safe as possible. I love that USAT is able to put on National events which for folks who have never been to one, they have no idea what they are missing. I love to watch a few of our best athletes compete in our sport in the Olympics. So these are just a few things off the top of my head that happen because I elect to pay for USAT dues to support the above. Now, you or others may think these are BS, but, some of us think they are not. And this gets to my comment about snowflakes and bullies. These folks can never accept that we all have different opinions and we should not be attacked for having them.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

i know where the member benefits page sits. i just linked to it. it's just that my ears perked up when you said if i travel and stay in a hotel that i get half my annual membership money back. i just don't see that.

----------

I errored by including hotel. But didn't error on the flight info, as united flight you get 2-10% discount. So if you fly 1 time a year on $500 flight, you get $10 back (20% of your discount). If you get 10% back on that $500 flight, you just gained back $50. So again, I errored by including hotels, at some point I know hotels were on there or I may have that mixed up. Flights + rental car have been a discount service pretty much the whole time.

So if you don't fly or rent a car, then yes you wont get any of the "travel" perks that I said were worth likely half your membership there. So that was my error for including hotel, but it is also a big incentive not to have because that likely would be used 10x more than flight/rental car.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Why do we need certified courses? I sure do not care. Just as long as we all race on the same course, why does it matter if it is off a few inches? And it is basically impossible to certify a swim course.

More efficient officiating? What the heck does that mean? Since most never ever step up to the plate and get certified to be an official at a race, again it is always someone else that is causing the issue, but they never jump in and try to help improve things.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave, that was a conversation I was having with previous poster. His comments are in regular font, my replies were in italic. I have no clue how to post each part of a post, when I wanted to talk about each segment.

But to answer your question, I think course certs are useful and not so useful. Like I've seen people have a big deal when they see an olympic with 22 mile bike instead of 40k. That I'm not so worried over. The most likely case for these races to have that odd distance is likely ease. IE, instead of having U-Turn in middle of a road where it's exactly that distance, they have it at a more safer place. Or they have an 22 mile loop instead of 24, etc.

Officiating is something that I just dont think ever really gets better. Too few officials out there, no real incentive to do it (IE it's volunteer based), and it's kinda hard. Like it's hard to do and then you have to deal with the consequences of the guy knowing he didnt draft, when you thought he did. Now I also think it's much different for your local run of the mill sprint vs IM type of event but I get that WTC is also still dependent on volunteers to do it (drivers + officials).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I agree.

Since I took the RD cert class, and USAT official cert class, etc., I feel I know a few things about this sport. I also have been an RD for a race where I live so I know first hand the BS an RD has to deal with from Type A athletes who think they are entitled. But they will never change, but I will also never change that I will not sit back and let the bullies win by not being challenged. If this makes me a bad person, so be it. I always stick up for the person, group, etc generally that are being attacked without facts.

I have never seen anything that says our courses have to be certified to a distance. In running that can be critical, like you cannot get into Boston without running a certified marathon course, but in Triathlon, totally different. Swim will always be different, even if you have anchors on the bottom since wind or current can still move them around. A bike turn around as to be, as you stated, put in a safe place, not just at a distance. Same happens for runs. So again, where is the issue? I see no rule that stated a race has to be specific certified distances, even though some like to complain. And it is always funny that they try to use a GPS unit for their justification. They are just not that accurate. I believe for run courses to be certified, they have to use the old wheel method?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

the only reason people are annual members of USAT is because they need annual membership to attend a particular race, or because it's cheaper than several 1-days. the last time i polled, 5 percent of slowtwitchers said they'd be annual USAT members if such membership sat above and beyond a fee for race insurance. in other words, there is virtually no recognition of a member benefit.

---------

Here's my question. Is being able to race "membership" races in and of itself a value that no one seems to see? Or is that not part of it, because that seems to be one part that is missing. It was missing from exactly what I said the 1 day license is for...... You get to race an USAT race, nothing more, nothing less.

Or are people saying there shouldnt be a organization that oversees the sport, and forces you to be a member of? Turn it into run races, where you dont need to be a member of to run in your local 5k?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

OK Dave -

I sent them a message asking about when duathlon nationals will be next year. Did not receive a response.

Perhaps since you like them and they like you, you could get an answer for us?

1/2 way through 2017 they should have 2018 scheduled....

Your analogy with United is incredibly flawed. First, the discount savings don't mean anything if the flight cost is far greater than you can find from a competitor. Second, United is one of the worst gougers on bike bag fees, so the $50 you claimed to have saved was just eaten up @ $200 each way for the bike bag. You need to look at a lot of factors when determining the lowest cost travel option from pt A to pt B.

Which race? LC or standard? Standard likely will be back in Bend in mid June based on 2 year cycles minimum (usually how it's setup). LC I have heard is going to be moved from May to later in year according to one of the threads on here. Couldn't remember where they said it was going.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

This is easy to answer, and I heard it directly out of Tim Yount's mouth at the Du townhall meeting in Bend Nationals. They do not know yet. Pretty simple. It could be early, like I have now see in the TEamUSA FB group posted they think it is April, https://www.facebook.com/groups/781961558480877/ or Tim said could be in October. So, until a contract is signed not possible to get a response. These type of questions get asked and answered from folks on the TeamUSA FB group. Tim will post answers to questions at times.

copied this as part of the discussion about your question from the FB group;.

I just called Greenville SC and they told me it's sometime in April 2018. They also told me that USAT will post all the information in July! April is a good time!
http://www.visitgreenvillesc.com/events/sports/

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Bend has had std already for 2 years and is done. I have a post on the TEamUSA FB page where I put all the USAT races, nationals and worlds that are known for the next many years at the top. Take a look, the known info is there and posted.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I see no rule that stated a race has to be specific certified distances, even though some like to complain. //

No Dave that is not the problem. I don't believe anyone here cares that much what the distance is given it is as close as possible to the genre of the race. What "WE" all care about is what is the actual distance. Like you said, don't care if it is exactly 1.5/40k/10k, just tell me what the actual race distances are. Don't be that RD that quietly shortens their course and don't tell anyone so that everyone goes home with a new PR and can now brag to their friends how fast there went. And of course it is a huge incentive to go back the next year too, fast courses(or short ones) always garner huge fields. With all the technology now that just doesn't fly anymore, so just tell us what it is. Is that too difficult a thing to ask? Is that being a snowflake? Is wanting to know what distance you raced make you a complainer, or USAT basher?


And if you still don't care about this, just ignore my post and move on.

How is this a USAT issue? Seems like you have an RD issue. If they do not provide accurate stuff, why do you do the race?

I had this battle with my co RD at the race at my lake. What he measured was not accurate. When I pushed him that we needed to tell athletes what it really was,
it got all upset and told me no one cares and has car distance was perfect.

I have seen RD's lie about water temps. I measured over 82 with my USAT approved tester, and the RD said it was under 78. When I confronted him that he had to follow the USAT rule for his sanctioned race, he told me to my face his races will NEVER be over 78.

So I 100% agree the RD should tell us the accurate distances. But this is not a USAT issue!!!!!!

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

this is why i was hoping you would run for USAT board. your scaling the one day fee to race distance is brilliant. it is a punishment to a newbie coming to sprint race paying $15 when their walmart bike is 1/4th that price already...., while to a 70.3 participant $15 is just a small percentage. As for perks of discounts, i love how you mention phanton. the hotel/car rental price just artifically raises the price, to account for the percentage discount USAT offers, yet you use many online booking sites you get that discount anyways. In addition with things like AirBnB, who the hell books hotels anymore?


most amatures will have one strong leg in tri, not all three. swim course is difficult to do yes... BUT 2/3s of tri participants are bike or run strong, which are courses easy to certify with a wheel. it gives them something to look forward to. for instance the bike strong user may want to compare their 20k tri bike leg to a 20km tt time. or runner, comparing their 10k tri run to and open 10k. course certification is useful also, as some may try to BQ in iron distance tri.

Unless the bike or run is 100% the same, like flat, no curves or turns, no wind, no humidity, no heat, you are never going to be able to compare.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I remember when the run boom took off, in the latter 70s. I was already a runner. It was a revelation to me when anyone could enter a footrace, rather than previously, when we all had to have AAU cards. There's a lesson in there somewhere.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

ETA # 2- here is what USAT publishes as money spent (on the dollar).

$1 total:
.02- volunteer support
.04- IT
.04- Region support
.04- Grassroots
.05- Para triathlon
.06- Marketing/communications
.09- RD, officials, coaching education
.10- National Team Programs
.15- National office operations
.16- services to local sanctioned vents
.24- membership services/benefits

Those are all very vague. Are there details published?