Awesome!

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Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

Pretty great.

Not sure how "awesome" that is. If I'm in the crowd, I'm assuming he's calling all of those people on the podium with him dopers.

I don't know if Colom would be dumb enough to continue to dope, but since AGers aren't tested much (if at all), what's to stop him if he did? I know it's been discussed (countless times), but I think KQs should be tested.

I'm not sure if we should blame him for your bad assumptions!

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

It's a very reasonable assumption.

I get it: Sam's point was that dopers suck, vis-a-vis the symbolism of IM trophy at the ready to wax his sports bottle. Very clever.

Who/ what is Colom?

As a very minimum, people in the crowd will assume that someone in the M35-39 is a doper. But it is reasonable to assume that the word would be out in Frankfurt that the winner was a former pro cyclist doper and I'd wager to assume that there were a number of boos in the crowd that accompanied him being called up on stage as the European IM Champion. Next stop for Colom is to win the M35-39 championship in Kona and call himself the World Champion. Kind of sucks, but I guess he served his penance and is allowed to race.

I just feel it is important that people know what is going on. In the case of Michael Weiss it is obvious and the bulk of pros make is clear that there was a doping infraction in his past. In the case of Colom he's quietly competing away and winning with minimal scrutiny. At least Weiss is being tested frequently. Weiss is trying to earn a living with the transparency that goes with being a pro. Colom is kinda flying under the radar (not entirely, but low enough that the efforts of guys like Sam should be commended).

Dev

which one is Colom?

Blue jeans and black/white shirt. Third from right holding M trophy chest level.

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Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

The guy that's yelling and holding one arm up.

They guy next to him in the red shirt doesn't look too impressed either...

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Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

Here are the splits for Sam and his podium peers:

Colom, AntonioESP 00:55:44 04:21:34 03:18:39 08:42:04
Kunath, SvenGER 01:02:43 04:41:590 2:58:51 08:49:39
Gyde, SamBEL 01:06:57 04:38:57 03:05:31 08:57:41

Is that Dieter standing next to Sam? I loved Sprockets.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

This is awesome. I applaud Sam.
Triathlon shouldn't be a refuge for convicted bike dopers.


..

Well played, Sam.

Agreed, the pros seem to be doing a decent job about speaking out and I am glad we have some people doing the same in the AG ranks. But Sam gets the win for presentation.

Are you implying that Colom is still doping?

Well played indeed. Bravo

It really doesn't matter. As it is has been said before he doped and built a doped engine. You can't unscramble the eggs, it has been shown that the benefit is long lasting so thus he is still benefiting regardless of whether or not he stills. Regardless of Weiss's background, I think the thing he has done is at least going thru great lengths to show others that he is being tested and continually being tested. I think at a bare minimum convicted, willful athletes should be subjected to drug testing on a continuous and random basis just like standard substance abuser for normal rec drugs and alcohol.

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You mean the dude who, even though I'd never even heard of him prior to this thread, just absolutely looks like a Euro-pro cyclist doper guy? That one?

Now, why would you say that?



John

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---

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

I kind of figured it would be the one guy acting like an NFL wide receiver after making a first down catch in a pre-season game.

Not if I have any thing to say about it. Now it is just going to fuel my fire that much more. I'm going to beat that piece of shit. See you in Kona colom, asshole!!

I think you and Sam Gyde are going to be unstoppable at Kona after this. Got rip it up boys!

In any case, as he has served his time and allowed to race under the WADA code, there is nothing to be done, however, on their second round, former dopers do need an additional degree of scrutiny. Those in the pro ranks have it from their peers and from the testers.

Those in the age group ranks can fly under the radar so it is up to all of us age groupers to make sure that all peers are aware of who they are racing.

On a related note, while this does not affect Sam Gyde in terms of getting a Kona slot (I think he may already have had one from last year from winning his age group), it does affect the first guy who did not go to Kona from Frankfurt due to rolldown. Sucks to be that guy.

Why would it be reasonable to think that he is calling ALL of the people on the podium dopers? What would the odds be that of all of the people on the podium, he is the only clean athlete and all of the rest are dopers? Doesn't seem reasonable.

Yes, because he's sharing the podium with women who are clearly doping.

If I wear a t-shirt to a race as a spectator that says "dopers suck", are you also assuming that I'm calling every athlete there a doper?

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Yeah, if I was in the audience I would just assume he was taking a general stand against dopers in general, not someone on the podium with him, that would never occur to me.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

Couple of general points here, and this is all old info, but I think that it is worth pointing out again. Is Weiss being tested? I don't know, but probably. I mention him out because you brought him up. It's difficult to know just who is being tested, etc. For instance, do you get tested or file whereabouts? Dan pointed this out in his long pieces on anti-doping.

Here is the USADA list, updated quarterly. Granted, he's not a USA athlete.

http://www.usada.org/...thlete-test-history/

You can clearly see who is tested, how many times, updated quarterly. It usually takes about a month or so after the quarter ends for them to update. I file whereabouts. I have not been OOC tested this year. I don't show up on the list above. Other US athletes file whereabouts, but do not show up. So, you can't definitively say which US athletes are and aren't subject to filing whereabouts based on this list of tests. But, you can clearly see which US athletes are tested and how often. It does not say if these tests are in or out of comp though.

Here is the WTC page on results management as well as the registered testing pool page.

http://www.ironman.com/...t.aspx#axzz36eRYfYRg

http://www.ironman.com/...l.aspx#axzz36eRYfYRg

You can see who, according to WTC, is subject to filing whereabouts and therefore, out of comp testing. But, it's a tricky issue. Great Britain, for example, pulled any long course athlete that used to be in their system from filing whereabouts and being subjected to testing under the British tri federation. So now, that responsibility falls wholly on WTC for athletes like Tim Don, Rachel Joyce, Jodie, Leanda, etc. I name those folks because I am 99% sure that in the past they were subject to testing from British tri.

Blah, blah, blah, it's tough to know just who's tested, how much, etc. WTC does do quite a bit of testing, that's been stated and pretty well verified. What isn't really verified, has been asked, is who is tested, full results disclosure, etc. The WADA 2012 report lists a summary of all of the WTC, ITU testing as well as a few others I believe. A quick Triathlon summary, you could probably break it down further into ITU/WTC as well as a couple of other types of testing. Total samples in-comp 2054 Urine with 20 AAFs and 19 ATFs. Total sample out-of-comp 1541 Urine with 2 AAFs and 14 ATFs. Total in and out of comp blood 101 and 344, respectively with no AAFs nor ATFs. AAF = adverse analytical findings, ATF = atypical findings. But, neither are necessarily sanctionable. And, you can further get to some of the individual NADOs, etc. but that would take some time. You can't find the individual athlete on those reports.

http://www.wada-ama.org/...tions/annual-report/

http://www.wada-ama.org/...A-AR-2012-Web-EN.pdf

Again, a lot of this was covered by Dan in past articles. But, it ends up getting lost a bit because attention spans or short or until the next questionable athlete ends up on the podium.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

While there is some evidence that is true for steroids and possibly some other peds, EPO has been shown to possibly result in long term negative affects after someone stops using it.

There's a reason there isn't a legal system in the civilized world that functions like this. Obviously companies like WTC are allowed to forbid whoever the heck they want to... that doesn't mean they should.

"In any case, as he has served his time and allowed to race under the WADA code, there is nothing to be done, however, on their second round, former dopers do need an additional degree of scrutiny."

to me, it seems like a couple of things ought to be expected. first, if USAT, the DTU, and other NFs are getting money from sanctioning races like roth, IM germany, other IM and challenge races, et al, a lot of that money ought to be funneled back into elite AG drug testing. that ought to be demanded by the race organizers and the competitors.

second, when you dope in cycling, as a pro, you serve your time and you're back in the peloton. not so in triathlon, in the pro or the AG ranks. yes, you can race. but i think you're going to be booed until you also offer up your explanation in transparency. i don't understand the cheating mindset. but i do believe in redemption. but i don't believe in redemption unless it is sought.

i think a lot of slowtwitchers and AG triathletes would give colom a much better welcome if he handled his situation as did some of the discovery/postal cyclists who were popped. maybe he has. but if he has i haven't read his explanation as to how and why he doped. if we can find that explanation and apology i'm happy to let slowtwitchers read whatever i can find. maybe herbert or somebody else knows of something i don't. but it's clear triathlon, as a community, will not welcome you back until you earn your way back.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Speaking of AG'ers standing on podiums behind former professional with questionable pasts….

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
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you have me at a disadvantage. i don't know even from the photo who you're referring to. but i certainly hope it's somebody with a PROVEN questionable past.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

That's me in the grey Zoot shirt standing next to Laurent Jalbert at 70.3 Worlds. He was 3rd, I was 4th in M40-44 in 2011.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...ot-confess-to-doping

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

I fully agree that sport 'ought' to be clean or that it is a 'privilege' to race either professionally or at the championship level. I'm on board with funneling some money into testing, pro and championship level age group testing. There's got to be some amount of altruism in that, and doing the testing because it's the 'right thing to do'. It's a cost, WTC says that it's a cost. USAT is going to say it's a cost. How is that cost going to be justified?

There was a big cat-fight after IMFF yesterday because of the combined MPro/WPro/AG start. Of course, some of us 'expected' that the start would have been men pros, women pros, a gap, and then age groupers, but it wasn't. That seems relatively 'easy'. But, how is the cost of 'fair play' going to be demanded? I'm on board with it.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

No, it's not.

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#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

ok, who's the photoshop wizard that will put Sam in that picture?

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--------------------------------------------
TEAM F3 Undurance

Just photoshop his t-shirt on to me. And make me look angry. :)

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

i don't think anybody who got popped, of any stature, in any era, should expect to be given a free pass back into the community. i think it's less of a stain on your reputation if your doping infraction was for - and there is nomenclature i recently read that fits this perfectly, i just don't remember it - androgenic agents or oxygen carrying capacity on the one hand versus stimulants and pain killers and the like on the other hand.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"It's a cost, WTC says that it's a cost. USAT is going to say it's a cost. How is that cost going to be justified?"

because i just paid 800 fucking dollars to enter your race and you owe me a clean race. and that race - especially if it's ironman - is far and away responsible for more of the discretionary money an NF takes in than any other single source, so the NF owes the RD a clean race.

i don't think that means that you test all the AG winners. i think you target those who deserve to be targeted. whether it's a tax agency or an anti-doping agency, those with suspicious profiles get targeted. anybody who's a previous doper fits a suspicious profile. if i'm clean the last thing i want is for people to suspect me and for nobody to test me.

and that's what happens. that's how we've caught a few dopers recently. USADA and USAT have stepped to the plate and aided testing in no-draft races. but i don't know how much of it was AG.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I would pay a higher entry fee to help defer the cost of testing.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

At what it costs to enter an IM, I want EVERY AGer who qualifies for Kona at all races to be tested while they are accepting their slot and paying their money. 100%.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Very valid point. I raced a local iron distance last year in Germany for less than a third of the usual IM fee. Even this race tested AGers (and the winner was positive btw).

Money is no argument to me (unless they post a breakdown of the costs which validates them). Too much of the race fees goes into the WTC pockets.

can someone explain to me what the doping code is for Age Groupers?

I don't see the point of testing for Age Groupers, they are not professional athletes and I think it is unreasonable for them to have to go to the effort to get TUE's etc. They make zero money out of this sport. More importantly it would take $$$ away from testing pro's who's livelihoods depend in large part on their results.

It's probably an unpopular view, and by no means am I excusing AG dopers, they're not only cheaters but pretty pathetic ones at that. Age groupers shouldn't need to monitor their supplements, make sure they don't eat contaminated meat ;) etc.

Maybe 5 or so AG'ers could be targeted each race, but only tested for certain drugs, i.e. EPO/Steroids not more inadvertent ones.

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__________________________________________________
http://twitter.com/willrc91 --- instragram.com/willrc91

So you are saying they should have ignored Kevin Moats?

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Read my last line....that was a blatantly obvious example of cheating, just look at him....He is a very rare exception.

Although there is a grey line when it comes to getting testosterone.

But I stand by my point that funds for testing athletes can't be directed towards AG'ers at the expense of proper Pro testing

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__________________________________________________
http://twitter.com/willrc91 --- instragram.com/willrc91

Why are the Euro trophies sooo much nicer than the pieces of aluminum we get here in the States? :)

D

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Team Every Man Jack

http://www.teamemj.com

I see lots of older guys that I race against that look like Kevin!! We all ask is it possible?

If I am paying 800 bucks to enter the AG race, I want part of my AG money to test the Kona Qualifiers in my AG to prove they are not cheating. The money to test the Pros
should be coming from Pro money, sponsors, etc.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Completely agree that all KQ should be tested! Maybe even add the cost into the Kona fee. It already is $750 or so, what is another $50 (or whatever a test would cost).

 
>Although there is a grey line when it comes to getting testosterone.

What grey line? Seems like a razor-sharp line to me.

No. I am not

But if you stand on the podium and wear that shirt and that pose and that expression, I'm not automatically going to know that you are talking about one person. Particularly if am not, say... someone who has thousands of posts on Slowtwitch, . Perhaps I might not know the doping story here. Do you think they announced his doping at the awards? Do you think most of that crowd was following it? If so, I think you dramatically overestimate them. I had never even heard of Colom before a couple of weeks ago and I do have thousands of posts on Slowtwitch. I certainly didn't know him by sight until this thread

So maybe, just maybe I might be a little confused as to who you mean. Do you mean all of them? Do you mean one in particular? Which one. Hell we had somebody on this thread ask that question. In the very least, if I'm one of the other athletes on that podium, I'm having my moment that I've worked so hard for brought down by your protest.

Recognizing the collateral damage isn't dismissing the value of the protest. I don't think Colom should have been allowed to compete at all.

I think this is how the system should work. Kona qualifiers pay for the testing....not a tax on everyman. Every person who signs up for Kona pays an extra $200 (pick your number). $200 x 2000 entries and you have $400K going to test next year's round of qualifiers (it is a bit late to test this year's round of qualifiers once they got their slot because if they doped to get it, they stole from someone else...need to nail them before they get their slot...although some testing between accepting the slot and Kona might not be a bad idea).

In any case although Colom is allowed to race, and gets his second chance at racing (although he no longer does it for money), as slowman says, easier acceptance to the tri community would come if he reached out to integrate into the community. I don't think that Nina Kraft gets quite the same wrath even though she arguably cheated Natasha Badmann out of the biggest prize in our sport. Colom has not technically cheated anyone out of anything in triathlon (let's assume for a second that he is clean these days). He only cheated out other cyclists of a Protour contract with the likes of Astana and Katusha (although one could debate that the field of dopers is so deep for those jobs that if one guy chooses to not dope, there is a lineup from here to Almaty district in Khazakstan to step up and fill that slot on the team). To some degree, I don't care that much that he doped while playing the dice to be a pro cyclist. But if he wants to race in competitive triathlon (which Kona qual is), we need to know that he's clean these days.

In fairness, as he is not in the English language media, perhaps in the Spanish media he talks openly with fellow athletes and competitors about how he has moved on, is racing clean and would be glad to be tested at any time. Does anyone know if he is talking that way in his home country?

People can get it for medical reasons....not just performance enhancing. Obvioulsy this has been abused, especially by Moats!

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__________________________________________________
http://twitter.com/willrc91 --- instragram.com/willrc91

KM didn't need a prescription for his mirror.

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float , hammer , and jog

I'm in no mood to pay for your KQ. You wanna go to Kona? Awesome! You pay the testing costs when you get your roll down and qualify. Sign the check and pee in the jar please... next! I'm not going to subsidize your dreams.

 
>People can get it for medical reasons....not just performance enhancing. Obvioulsy this has been abused, especially by Moats!

There is no gray line. TUE=OK. No TUE=cheating.

I'm having my moment that I've worked so hard for brought down by your protest. //

If you are the athlete on that podium who did not dope, then your who cares whatever place you got, that no one was ever going to know about or see(except for some family, friend, or the few that actually hang around awards) just got national and international attention. I would say they need to thank Sam for plucking them from obscurity to their 15 minutes of fame. Personally i applaud Sam, i would love to see video of that ceremony. Usually the winner goes down the line and shakes hands with everyone, it would be great to see him stick his out then do the pull up and hair slick back. That would be priceless, anyone there and see this ceremony close up?

You obviously don't know the actual costs for these tests.

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Twitter
Instagram

Question: Last week I had a cold and mild flue. I went to the pharmacy and got some 'sudafed' to help get better. I started taking it on Friday and by last monday I was fine and stopped taking it.

Now as an age-grouper (hoping to go pro later this year) do I really need to worry about either getting a TUE or going through the banned WADA list (Pseudoephedrine is banned) to make sure I am not ingesting something illegal for professional athletes??

I think it is a ridiculous situation for the average-joe! But perfectly acceptable, indeed 100% necessary for a pro, whose livelihood is tied to the sport.

The only time I could see a system of AG testing working, is WTC announcing that it would drug-test certain Agers at Kona. Since the majority of the athletes there are hard-core and could be expected to take note of what goes in their body and it was announced well in advance it could both work and be fair/reasonable. It takes out areas of ambiguity. Which there would be if AG testing and hence requiring TUE's and checking the WADA code was enforced haphazardly at only some races. A 12hr IM athlete shouldn't be expected to worry about TUE's etc.

Just my thoughts, feel free to tare me down.

EDIT FWIW before Noosa last year I came down ill, but out of respect for myself and others I didn't take sudafed.

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__________________________________________________
http://twitter.com/willrc91 --- instragram.com/willrc91

Well, do you? I have never ordered one nor done one. I can't imagine it would be more than a couple hundred dollars when bought and administered in a mass amount. Whatever the cost, build it into the Kona fee. I would be happy to pay it. When I consider how much money I spent in 2012 to qualify at IMNYC and then do Kona bringing along my wife and son for both trips, whatever the tests cost are miniscule to all my other costs.

A 12hr IM athlete shouldn't be expected to worry about TUE's etc. //

Well if you are 60 to 80 years old, 12 hours is a very good time, even a record in some AG's. Don't worry, if you are a MOP they are not coming after you, so you can sleep with your cold medicines at night. But for the pointy end of the race, they train like pros most of them, they get perks for performance, they should have to endure at least some of what pros have to. Tighten the list of banned substances, get rid of the where are you now rule that pros follow, and it would be pretty painless and easy. Except for those that are doping of course, but that would be the point, right?

 

>Just my thoughts, feel free to tare me down.

That's a different argument. I was just arguing that the line is clear. Not that the line is drawn in the right place.

I could listen to arguments that the bar is set too high to get a TUE, causing undue expense and stress on people with truly legitimate, severe medical conditions.

But with regards to pseudoephedrine, it's a threshold substance, like caffeine. 150 micrograms/ml, which is over the recommended dose of over-the-counter Sudafed. You were fine. Unless you were also on a diuretic, in which case pseudoephedrine is flat-out banned. (masking agent type stuff). That is a bit confusing. But in your case it works as it was supposed to. It lets you do commonsense stuff to help your flu, but would nail a doper using the stuff to dangerously cut weight or mask some other drug.

Of course making even more common-sense rules for AGers creates two problems. First, it creates gray areas. Second, it means that WADA, or whoever, has to maintain two separate rulesets. Both of those create more confusion.

I think the system, as-is, strikes a reasonable balance. I could see tweaking some things (lower-cost TUEs, maybe make a few more things threshold substances), but I think WADA, in general, pretty much nails it. (except for possibly being X years behind the state-of-the-art)

Some very good points, you summarise the issues very well.

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__________________________________________________
http://twitter.com/willrc91 --- instragram.com/willrc91

I'm not sure what the value is in testing Kona qualifiers, if it is only at the point of time of qualifying. KM was nailed by an OOC test, I suspect people of his ilk are smart enough to not 'glow' at the time of competition. OOC testing for age groupers would present additional challenges...

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Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!

. [pink] Good to know Zoot doesn't take on dopers, otherwise I might have pegged the guy in the red shirt as JaJa

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Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!

I guess you would never want to do Worlds as an AGer. They do random tests for finishers of all times. The first year they did this, a number of racers all of the sudden drop out from going.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

lol I have, (well actually I got gastro night before and pulled out). I highly doubt taking sudafed when I'm sick makes me a cheater :-) Especially since I wasn't anywhere near a triathlon.

Worlds, like Kona are reasonable places where you could test athletes. They could be more expected to check what goes into their body rather then the casual athletes who make up the vast majority of WTC races.

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__________________________________________________
http://twitter.com/willrc91 --- instragram.com/willrc91

The benefits of EPO may not be long lasting BUT the benefits of the training you did for YEARS on EPO do last a lifetime.

From someone who coaches athletes who have to race (and have raced) against Colom what he did for years as a cyclist is still cheating the AG triathletes he races against today. He wasn't a hack cyclist either, he was winning stages and races from 2004-2009 (2009 Paris- Nice stage)

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

Agreed. One million times over. Not just the strength gain, but the preferential coaching, sponsorship, gear, race experience, and lifestyle gain to continue to train at a level far above a non-doper. A doper gets improvement in everything on top of everything repeatedly as he/she wins and wins. Lance took his doping winnings and used it to buy even more and better training to make him even better. A former doper is far faster for the rest of his life than he would be having never doped at all. Allowing once to race against normals is bullshit. Take a stand like this guy did. Bravo!

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----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

"He only cheated out other cyclists"

Hey Dev ... the training benefits he gained in his doped up years of training are life long.

As well ... saying he dos not do it for money any longer I would question. He has sponsors AND he has a business centered around coaching (HA), and a triathlon team called something like "Toni Coloms World" (its on his race kit)

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

I know you will all be well ahead of me at that point in the race and will probably be watching you pass by on the Queen K for sure. I can't wait to yell some shit at this first class douche as he cheats his way towards the finish.

That picture of him on the podium pisses be off beyond words. What a dick.

BTW, Sam has quickly become one of my favorite dudes in the sport. Fun guy to follow.

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New Training/Racing Log - http://www.earthdaykid.com/blog --- Old Training/Racing Log - http://colinlaughery.blogspot.com

HAHAHAHA!!

For the major items (EPO, etc), start at $1000 and go up. Per test, per substance.

http://www.asada.gov.au/about/fees.html - That's the Australian costs, US runs very similar.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

If WTC wants - they can. They make millions of dollars in profit every year. Shouldn't be a big deal to order some tests at least for the Top10 AGers in Kona.

Wow, they really get you in Australia. I am an orthopedic surgeon in the US. I just called my lab and was told a blood EPO test is less than $100 and urine about $300. So if you get a mass discount as WTC would negotiate, it would be even cheaper.

You would be the guy that can do it. Kill it! See you in steelhead next month... id like to shake your hand....a good 15 minutes after you finish of course.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Just read this. Apparently the jury is still out on this.


http://velonews.competitor.com/...hancing-drugs_317590


And maybe he is beating your athletes and others because he was pretty friggin awesome to begin with? And the doping allowed him to win against other dopers.

Agreed, You can dope a donkey and it will never win the Derby....nobody is a saint. People, cheat and lie everyday, why would the tri sub set of people be any diffrent?

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks" so bang the "dopers suck" drum just not to loud.

Sure the lab test is cheaper but you also have to factor in the person who takes the test, travel, etc. You can't trust that dopers are just gonna walk into their local LabCorp and take the test.

Interesting excerpt from the article:

Vaughters said he has seen riders drop well below their pre-EPO baseline abilities, and claims the effect last years in some cases.
The effect is called erythropoietin hyporesponsiveness. It’s well documented in cancer patients who take large quantities of EPO to stay alive. EPO receptors become desensitized and there can even be damage to bone marrow where red blood cells are produced.
More concerning still is a condition called pure red cell aplasia. When medical patients are maintained at high doses of EPO, the body can develop antibodies against EPO itself; these antibodies are unable to distinguish between natural and synthetic forms. The result is a permanent and sometimes dangerous reduction in red blood cells.

Personally I don't buy that the physiological gains from a period of doping are positive once the athlete stops, so I am not averse to letting them back into sport, once appropriate suspensions have been served. I don't debate that former dopers had better access to training, infrastructure, doctors, physiologists etc, but then again, at the age group level there are plenty of guys who do well at Wall Street, or in the tech world, or law or accounting that have enough money to buy any access to the best doctors, coaches and trainers, so that's not really a point worth even discussing.

The main point for discussion is once ex dopers serve their sentence, if they are going to come and play in triathlon, let's at least force them to make an effort to be open book and show they are doing it clean now. Sam Gyde laid down a firm message to Colom at Frankfurt on the podium. Colom can respond and be transparent about how he supports clean sport moving forward and does not want to bring his cycling past practices to triathlon. That would be some kind of a start. Right now, it seems like he has the same mindset as Vino or Contador...He doped, he sat in the penalty box and now he is racing again, so don't bother him. Except he is not racing cycling where he did the equivalent of Robben's or Messi holding an opponent and getting a penalty. In triathlon terms what he did was more like match fixing in FIFA football, and before fans would allow him back in he'd have some explaining to do.

Never said he wasn't physiologically very good to begin with ... he'd have to be of course' and that's not what anyone questions ... everyone just wants a level playing field

So lets take the cheaters Vande Velde & Zabriskie and the Velo--news stuff out and let me ask you a question. --- If you trained incredibly hard for say 3-4-5 years and each winter you take a period of light training to re-generate, re-motivate etc. Does all that training you did the year(s) before simply put you back at ground zero because you took a light month of training? IMO If a person can train harder / more AND RECOVER better each year (for whatever reason they can) the training effect doesn't just dis-appear. I understand the effect of the doping product is gone. Not the effect of training ... if that were the case athletes wouldn't improve year to year

I know this is ST, but I'm not looking for a pissing match. ;-) It's an honest question. If you don't agree based on your own wisdom from training & racing (not from velo news) I'm good with that.

Best,

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

How should he "open the book" and I really don't know what that means?

I don't think many care what Colom or Gyde have to say.

Yes I agree. What you did the year before has benefits in the following years in non-cheaters. Would be silly to not agree with that.

Now back to Colom, he got popped 5 years ago. We don't know what has happened in those years. It looks like he still wanted to race bikes so I would also assume he was getting tested, but its cycling, who really knows. But I'm gonna assume he was clean. So every year without doping, his training load would decrease and decrease right? Plus you have the Vaughters quote where he has seen guys worse off after getting off this stuff. But who really knows right? Maybe it lasts forever maybe it doesn't.

 

>I don't think many care what Colom or Gyde have to say.

Well the thread has >4000 views in just a few hours, which isn't bad. And you made it to post 83.

W.r.t Colom, not many care, but enough stakeholders in the cleanliness of the pointy end of AG competition do. Culture isn't going to enforce itself. I've got Gyde's back on this one.

Bravo.

You go girl!

You do look like you were very happy about it at the time.

I wonder if Sam Gyde would wear the same top if he won and Colom got third. Sure, call out dopers, but not only when they beat you.

I don't know Sam's travel plans and if he even has seen this thread yet on his return home from Frankfurt. I THINK it is the first time the two have gone head to head. He seems like a straight up guy and stands behind what he believes in. Hey, the guy has even come on ST and defended powercranks to folks on ST and not backed away on that, so I would imagine that he is even more passionate about the topic in the picture.

It was 2 years before Jalbert got popped. I had no idea who he really was.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

Well done. Dopers that fess up, and try their best to compete cleanly and show that they are doing so, deserve a second chance. Dopers that just go under the radar and try to satisfy their hunger for success like this one however, not so much.

I'd be interested in the opinions of the other top American age group racers in Kona in 35-39. Beck, Zucco, Inkinen, Burke, Harms? Just to name a few. I suspect some, due to their personal businesses being tied to the sport, can't really speak out.

Personally, I think some advantage is retained, and I question if a former doper should be allowed to compete in a championship event in any sport related to cycling. On the flip side, how much time are we actually talking about? 3-5 minutes on the bike? The guy is clearly very fit and very strong.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

This is the crux of the problem. OOC testing is the ONLY way to really deter AG dopers. I would guess most of them are taking EPO in small doses and then stop at least a week before competition. So they are clean when they race. Kona and 70.3 Worlds AG qualifiers appear to have virtually zero chance of being tested, especially OOC.

I understand the arguments against AG OOC testing, none least the cost of it, but it just seems there must be some low hanging fruit that could be enacted as a deterrent because right now, if I'm thinking of doping my way to Kona or 70.3 Worlds as an age-grouper, I see absolutely no risk of being caught. For the record I'm not good enough, though my wife has qualified a number of times and she's never had the faintest hint that someone could show up at the door asking for a test. Now I know many poeple don't want that to be able to happen from a privacy perspective, but given the hours required to train to achieve these goals I would think most of the potential qualifiers (not MOP'ers) would want this to be at least a possibility.

I just fundamentally disagree that any age groupers should be tested. As an age grouper I line up to do my best and the only one I am really racing is myself. I find it pathetic that age groupers cheat with PEDs, but I am not going to make it my business to involve myself in your deplorable behavior. If I set my mind to it, I hopefully will qualify for Kona. If beating a cheater is part of it, so be it.

I do think what Sam Gyde did was a little different. He called out a professional cheat who is now racing age group. And I do understand where people are coming from with their calls to clean up the age group ranks. For me it is not that important. I think there are others who feel the same way.

What will we do when this happens

http://now-thats-amateur.blogspot.com/...o-x-chromosomes.html

Is it fair?

So you want to catch only the stupid or careless dopers?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I think you guys may be looking at 2 different things.

I doubt ASADA has its own lab, so it'd be contracting out the test analysis. I suppose it's possible, but the capital expenditure, liability, etc would make this unlikely. Thus the cost ASADA is charging would include the overhead of having someone to liase with the lab. ASADA would also be responsible for "results management" I believe, thus they need people and systems to keep track of the tests, test results, and have processes in place to deal with what happens when someone fails a test. That would add cost over and above what a lab would charge simply to collect samples and analyze results. The lab Dnowak contacted, on the other hand, is only responsible for the "lab" portion (i.e no "results management").

Sort of the difference between paying for "parts" or "parts and labor."

Also, the costs of Australian lab tests will be more expensive because Australian lab equipment requires special calibration to correct for the fact that the country is upside-down :)

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__________________________

I tweet!

the one with the reasonably hot girlfriend apparently...
http://tri-mag.de/...014-hawaii-18?page=2

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if you can read this
YOU'RE DRAFTING!

There seems to be a big enough supply of them to make it worthwhile though.

Also, what about just getting a sample from everyone and only testing a portion of those sampled? And maybe just not telling anyone that not all samples are tested, could be a cheaper way to deter doping.

I don't believe that is the cost for detecting synthetic EPO but rather just getting an EPO level. However, part of the problem is that there are only two (at least as of about 18 months ago when I was doing research on this) labs that are certified to do USADA level testing in the US. I was looking at putting together a team that would be randomly tested during the year, and 4 random tests on 20 riders would have run me $80,000+ for a year. This includes the costs of sending someone out, doing a certified collection, analyzing and reporting results.

Even if you limit it to KQ/70.3 Worlds and possibly 20 random selections per race, and are able to get the cost down to $750 per test, that's $45,000 per race (20 men, 20 women, 20 random). 177 WTC races, and it comes to slightly more than 7.9 million in costs per year. Just to test for EPO. Add in testosterone and other tests, and just keep adding. Even if you limit it to KQ or Worlds, that's still in the neighborhood of 6 million per year.

I've put forth the theory that top amateurs that consistently KQ, achieve USAT All American status, or qualify for any Team USA slot get put into the random testing pool for the next year, but again you run into the testing costs, and people scream bloody murder if you ask them to pay an extra $20 a year to cover it, or they scream about invasion of privacy, etc etc.

Everyone is all for amateur and increased drug testing until it comes time to pony up $$ or pee in a cup themselves. (Even though technically if you are a USAT license holder you could be tested anyway, same for any major federation such as USATF, USA Cycling, etc.)

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

 
>Even if you limit it to KQ/70.3 Worlds and possibly 20 random selections per race, and are able to get the cost down to $750 per test, that's $45,000 per race (20 men, 20 women, 20 random). 177 WTC races, and it comes to slightly more than 7.9 million in >costs

That sounds about right. The NFL does ~14,000 tests at a cost of $10M. That comes to $715/test. However that's a full-spectrum test, including recreational drugs and the full WADA spectrum except HGH. Probably a lot of economies of scale come into play once you get into the thousands, however.

At least this would be a start. Have a better idea? You could add some OOC testing that would maybe catch more Kevin Moat type folks.

For a lot of these older folks, just looking at them would give you a clue as to who you might want to do OOC testing on.

It has been interesting has I have gotten better running older that I am now having some folks ask if I am taking something to get the results I do. I would love to be in a testing pool, would
be quite an honor.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I know when they first said at the Germany worlds that random AG folks would be tested, it caused a number of folks on TeamUSA that were going to stay home so anything you do will start to slow it down.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Sign me up for the extra $20 bucks a year and hand me the cup to pee in! I have nothing to hide.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

If you have a USAT license, you are in a testing pool. It's just a very unlikely to be tested group. What I'm talking about is putting any of the categories I mentioned in the "Have to update the website with whereabouts" testing pool.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

JD, I would draw the line with updating whereabouts for AGers, even those top pointy end athletes. Just ping them with an random OC test at their home of residence.

The whereabouts is an dangerous line if you have to update daily/weekly. Much in life can change and I don't want that to be part of a sport for the hobby category athletes (even if it's not a hobby for AA athletes, etc).

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Get him, Dan!

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Yep, I am in some of the categories you suggest so yep, sign me up.


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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yes, I know. You're all for "effective" drug testing, but as long as it's not too intrusive. The odds of finding a top AG athlete at home and available for a drug test at random is probably less than 10%, unless you show up in the middle of the night.

USADA whereabouts are required once a quarter, with one specific 60 minute window a day tied to a location. If this changes, that can be filed with an email, a text or through their mobile app. I don't think that's too intrusive, but I'm probably in the minority on that one.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

So it seems the crux of the problem is that groups like the USADA aren't really that concerned with catching dopers. If they were they would find a way to make testing cost effective. Certainly they could care less about AGers it would seem.

In a country the size of the USA and with its population, having 2 labs that can do testing and the hoops that need to be jumped through, well of course it is going to cost a lot and take a lot of time.

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Ian

How has your team testing being going?

Eta: I'm for basic testing if your going to do testing. I think it's completely unnceccessry to go to that length. Let's get an in comp testing working first and actual testing being done before we get into this complex process. How many AGers are we even testing now? Less than 300 in a year I imagine?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

That's beneath you. You know it wasn't feasible due to lack of funds. If I happened to win the lottery, I'd fund it myself. Until then, it's a potential, nothing more, unless you know someone willing to pony up $100k to be the title sponsor for a 20 person team.


Did you miss the initial segue into this? We were talking about the costs to test the KQ/World qualifiers at all WTC events. It expanded slightly. Ballpark cost to test the KQ/World groups and 20 random people from every WTC event is ~ 8 million a year minimum. I'm all for that as well. However, as Ken pointed out, if you test at the event, you catch only the stupid and the careless.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Having been on the M35-39 podium at Kona two of the last three years I think I qualify here. I applaud what Sam did in Frankfurt and was hoping that some of the guys at Vegas would have done something similar last year.

If I had to share a podium with Colom, I would make an attempt to get the other guy(s) on the podium to do something similar to what Sam did so that we could make it known to this guy that he isn't welcome.

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_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |

JD, I was asking because your one of the biggest proponents of AG testing. I've always been kinda anti-AG testing (I'd like to see the pro testing program cleaned up before we actually think an AG testing with any teeth is going to work) because it's way to complex and not really going to ever matter, and everyone seems to talk big about it but then fail when it comes to actual execution of a AG testing program. But we currently have it *technically*, as anyone in USAT can be tested at any time period. You (or your team) created an team specifically to promote clean racing. I think a lot of this shows that AG testing is great on paper. It's great to talk about and dream about how we are going to create this great complex program, and then what happens? How many people are tested per year? Which is why, I think until we actually get people tested on a regular basis, talking about an complex system, is more just talk.

My question about your team and you admitting that there isn't a lot of testing being done due to funding is what is happening to the rest of the sport, just on a complete larger scale. There simply isn't the funding to do AG testing at a manageable level.
ETA: So yes while being popped at races is only going to catch the dumb and stupid, to me that's the 1st and most necessary step before we add whereabouts, and out of competition testing, etc. Let's just first start out with getting athletes actually tested, and then see how to better manage it. I've not been to AG Nationals nor worlds, so others can chime in on how many athletes were tested there. If you want to do AG testing, then lets see some actually tests being collected and see if we can manage to increase the numbers of tests before we try and change the complexitity of the testing programs.

Simply get more athletes tested would be my 1st goal. This whole whereabouts for AG'ers is not the step I would currently push for with this young of a program and as few tests as they are actually collecting.
ETA #2- Race day allows for testers to have the greatest access to the athlete pool at any one point. I would like to see the sport actually getting tests performed a lot more than we currently are, even if only the dumb and stupid would get caught. That to me is where we need to start.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

If you don't mind, how many times have you been tested, either at a race or OOC? I'm just curious.

Never....well, at least in triathlon. Back when I was competing for a spot on the USRowing worlds team in '01 I got to pee in a cup at trials. That was it.

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Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |

This thread main it much easier to get out of bed and onto my bike this morning.

Not everyone is. I'm with ajthomas

How much would it cost to start biological passports for top AGers (ie: KQ and/or top 3AG)? As some ppl mentioned, you wouldn't have to test more than a few...you just don't tell the athletes that. That'd be enough to make quite a few guys and gals nervous and possibly not race.

And presumably there is, in your mind, close to a zero probability of you ever having to pee in a cup, at the behest of WTC?

See, this is what I meant when I said earlier there must be some low hanging fruit. Let's make some assumptions, and suggest there is a 0.1% chance of you being asked to pee in a cup after your next Ironman race (in your mind). In other words, a one in a thousand chance.

But then suddenly WTC does ask a random handful of podium finishers to do just that after some of their 140.6 or 70.3 races. Word gets around. Now you think, hmm, it's still pretty unlikely they ask me to pee in a cup, but I guess there's alot more chance now. Maybe (again, in your mind), the chance has now gone up to 1.0%. One in a hundred.

In other words, in this example, in your mind the perceived chances of you being asked to pee into a cup after an Ironman has increased by a factor of ten! You now percieve it to be ten times more likely you could be tested. Not twice as likely, ten times as likely!

Now considering many AG dopers are likely doing it pretty blind - ie. just injecting a little EPO at a time and hoping for the best - and given many of them have professional careers they would not want to be tarnished by being caught cheating at a sport, I think that a large percentage of them would be deterred by the scenario above. I may be wrong, but this is my gut feeling.

Now I understand this is looking only at in-competition testing, but if the perception grows that in-competition testing is being done more frequently then that could also raise the perceived probability of OOC testing occuring. At least enough of an effect to deter those really worried about their reputations. Maybe I'm way off base on all of this, but based on this thread and other threads on the topic, it seems to me that WTC could be doing something more at a relatively low cost to deter AG doping.

But isn't the point of the bio passport, to have the athletes baseline tested and then use random tests to compare to the baseline values? Then randomly test and recheck against the baseline?

So if you've never had your blood checked, they cant really test it against any baseline can they, and therefore the passport is meaningless to that athlete right?

Help me out if I'm wrong on that.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I would agree. Bio passports are off-the-charts impractical and too expensive for AG testing. It's a shame of course, because it's about the only fool-proof way to catch careful dopers. But at least in my scenario above I think a lot of potential AG dopers would be deterred from doing it.

Kevin Moats was tested OOC , so it can happen if the powers to be want it to happen.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I don't know, man...I'm totally ignorant of the process. I honestly have not taken the time to read up on how it's done. I was just assuming they kept the samples and could test them at a later date if need be.

I agree with your point. Want to improve AG testing, then actually do AG testing. Don't sit behind this idea that you can get tested anywhere at anytime, because to me, that's too easy of an out for why we aren't doing more testing. Of course I also don't think anyone really wants to do AG testing for various reasons (funding, hobby sport, looks bad, etc etc). So it's really just argumentative fodder for folks.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

With that process, I'm pretty sure you have to get a baseline of testing on the athlete and then when you retest down the road, you can compare it to the baseline test. If any abnormalities show up, that's when they are "busted" without an actual positive testing. That's how Mark Fretta, of the ITU was busted a few years back, as he never had a positive test when he was given the ~10 year ban or however long it was.

So in that process, you cant just say you have the process. Athletes will either know they have been baseline tested or not. So any athlete that didn't get baseline tested, would then only have to worry about an actual positive test, as the baseline comparison wouldn't be applicable.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Yes, quite. And of the three I have to wonder how much of it is "looks bad" as far as WTC is concerned. If the UCI, FIFA etc can be seen to be turning a blind eye to doping in their sports, what kind of conflict of interest does WTC have? Similar to the NBA etc. I have to imagine. These are essentially for-profit, self-policing organisations. So you're right. All this is probably just more verbal masturbation on the topic and nothing is going to change.

I will say this... I have been coached by Sam and this made me proud to see... he is not only incredibly talented but devoted to clean racing and training... his work ethic is amazing (which he showed me through his coaching)... he has balls the size of basketballs for doing this. he doesn't back down from what he believes in (powercranks being one of those things ;) ) and I respect him for that... way to go Sam!!!!

I don't really know cost numbers, but passport would be really expensive. Again, as I pointed out earlier to use the pros as an example. I haven't been tested enough to have a 'passport'. You can look at the USADA list that I posted and kind of surmise that at least several of those pros on the list who have been tested in excess of say 2 or 3 times in the fist 2 quarters might have enough info for a passport.

Passport testing for age groupers would be very expensive. I mean the way that an NGB would have to do it. You can go down to 'AnyLabTestNow' and get a CBC pretty cheaply. That gives hematocrit and hemoglobins, but I don't think that it gives reticulocytes...which have been pointed out as important in some of the cycling revelations.

There would have to be some standard of control, etc. That's why there are only certain accredited labs...I think.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Very cool that Sam sticks up for powercranks since I love them also and get beat up a little on ST for this. :o)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I've said it ever since cycling took it on the chin in regards to doping. If you as a sport can get away with having an doping program in pretty much "theory" only, you are going to go with that.

ETA: I laughed my ass off when Lance was getting roasted by ESPN "experts" a few years back. It was as if suddenly there was an ton of cycling experts who were talking about how dirty cycling was. Yet they wouldn't say a world about their precise NFL and it's shitty drug program standards.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

And here's my fear of why that wouldn't work. Testing gets announced as all KQ/World qualifiers. Program goes into effect, and because only the dumb and stupid get caught you get maybe 4 or 5 people caught out of all the tests for 2 years. WTC wonders why they are spending 8 million+ a year to catch 4 people. Conclusion is that there is no AG doping and program gets scrapped.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

I'd much rather see a program that shows actual testing numbers and sticks to it, and not just sitting behind this general guise of "well you can get tested at any moment, so stop doping". That to me is to easy to sit on your hands and pound your chest and say "see we are doing something about testing....we just aren't testing often, but well you better not dope because we may still show up at your house".

ETA: Of course because of finances (I don't believe for a sec WTC spends $8mil a year on AG testing), WTC/USAT can live with the scare tactic drug program. That's all we are going to be able to ever have. You'll never see a program that dedicates lots of testing to certain athletes. It's always going to be the very very random/few tests, and WTC/USAT/Rev3 can put out a cute press release out each year, "Please be advised with our drug program that you can be tested at any moment", regardless if they actually do any substantial testing from that ruling.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

8 million would buy you approximately 10,000 tests. I'd rather see 10,000 random OOC tests performed on proven top achievers than on race finishers.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

The day WTC spends $8mil on AG testing, I'll glady sit back and STFU and let them do it however they want to do it.
ETA: Is that their annual budget on AG testing, $8mil? Is that verified anywhere? I have a hard time believing WTC has paid for and/or performed ~10k AG drug tests. Bravo to them if they have, I just would like to see it verified somewhere.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Memory fail?

The 8 mil is what I guesstimated it would cost to test all the KQ/WQ + 20 random people at each WTC event.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Sighs, that is the issue with AG testing. WTC doenst want to spend $8mil on AG testing. That's the whole point, we are just all racing under a guise of AG drug testing.

ETA: I should also add this applies to USAT/Rev3/name of your local RD in terms of actually doing an AG testing. It's too much of an hobby sport and too much of an for profit industry, to really have an affective doping program, an program that will go after it's own customers in the process. Yes USAT is an non-profit. No one wants to actually spend the money and make the athletes spend more money to make an program that has 10k tests per year. That's where we are at, and likely will always be at. We are going the way of the NFL much more than an WADA sanctioned sport, and that's because there is no need for the WADA approved doping tests. It's much easier to run a business like the NFL where they can dictate how little or more they want to spend on doping, than to be held accountable by HAVING to do an certain drug standard.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

But they would only have to test a fraction of that to have a massive deterrent effect on AG doping. The situation now is that age groupers see absolutely zero risk of being caught. Zero. But test just 5 age groupers (preferably podium finishers) at just 5-10 races each year and you would scare a lot of potential age group dopers away from doing it.

But right now it seems to me that WTC is just paying lip service to the idea of AG testing, apart from a handful of Kona finishers each year.

I also edited my comment to make it where the industry standard is to pay lip service to this issue, it's not just WTC. But it's precisely because we are talking about the hobby/business side of triathlon, not necesssarly the high performance/fairness side of racing.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I'm a little late to this party, but i do have some insight to add.
1) testing for EPO and testosterone is not "expensive", the earlier reference to australia is most likely for having a rep come and collect the sample, which is different than collect at a race. Testosterone tests are about $40.

2) Testosterone has a HUGE effect on recovery/endocrine responses, it is probably the most "valuable" drug for endurance athletes behind EPO, it also has a really short half-life and is hard to get a "overuse amount" nailed down. That is why it is the ONLY 0% tolerance drug from WADA unless you have an absolute value of 0 from an organic disability (testicular cancer or massive radiation). Every male over 50 has low T compared to when he was 25, and all you need for a script is a doctor to ask if you are tired, lethargic, less interested in sex, then they do the blood test and if you number is on the "low end" they will give you a script, then you can use extra on hard training days....see how that works. Abuse of it is so easy with a script.

3) WTC should be testing All KQ qualifiers and a few random FOPers, there is much more doping in AG racing than many people actually think, if you don't believe there is a cheating culture, what about drafting?

4)The profile of many AG triathletes, from personality type to socioeconomic status are more likely to be the type of folks who would dope. if you have the means and the motivation, it is more likely.

5) Dan said it best "I pay $800, WTC OWES us a clean race"

6) Doping does not continue as a long term benefit...as a matter of fact it does the opposite in many cases, that includes ALL types of doping, steroids, EPO, T...once you remove the "assist" your body returns to normal or worse, because you may have permanently F-ed up your production of (T, RBC's, etc) as your body adapted to having naturally occurring homeostasis disrupted. As a matter of fact, mitochondrial density starts to fade in days and Vo2 improvements associated with doping (or training) has been shown to return to "normal" in 12 weeks.

7) Colom is a doper and did serve his time, he should be tested and held to a higher standard, but his results don't actually look out of order...he had a 55min swim, not sure how much EPO will improve swim technique enough to top Sam by 11 minutes, His bike was not impressive for a World tour rider racing as an AGer (it is still impressive, but not ridiculous), and his run was slower than both 2nd and 3rd, by a reasonable amount. I'm not defending him, I think ALL dopers should get the LA treatment, life without parole in every sport governed by WADA. Doping is always a choice, regardless of what "reformed" dopers say. But his current result indicates more years of training than doping. Also, he's from Spain, so don't hold your breath that their ADA/NF would do anything even if he was doping, it would be up to WTC.

8) Biopassports should be required for every pro, as a part of the application process to get your license. What makes the biopassport effective is that only the ADA knows the results, so the athletes don't know what the ADA knows about their biochem and blood numbers. Which makes it impossible to duplicate through non-natural means.

I gave my little action some more clarification in the interview with Herbert. It expresses how I feel about it pretty well. It is a topic that is not easy to solve but it is good to know that WTC 'customers' of all levels are ready stand up and fight for a fair competition. Lots of people, lots of opinions and everybody has some valid points. Thanks everybody to support this little momentum and lets try to keep it alive. The M35 guys racing in Kona will for sure!
Sam
samgyde.com

Ok.. now I'm pissed about doping.

Go get him Sam. I love you have trained 100% on your powercranks and 100% indoor trainer. I have done the same and get nailed for it all the time. Frank was at my house the other day and was
talking about you. Would be great to see him test you with his icranks.

Kick butt at Kona.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

>UCI, FIFA etc can be seen to be turning a blind eye to doping in their sports, what kind of conflict of interest does WTC have?

The problem I think is that the UCI and others *aren't* turning a blind eye. They're all getting more serious. The "but, but NFL/NBA/FIFA!" excuse that pops up in every doping thread is become harder to manage when the NFL administers 14,000 tests per year and pop guys every month.

That creates a differential.

And the potential for AG triathlon to become a refuge for unrepetent dopers who still feel the need to dominate at elite level sports, but have been rejected from their own communities. (and deep sub-9:00 at Kona in the AG field is a quasi-elite level)

At one level, it's just wrong. It's not the "triathlon culture." We'd be relinquishing the sport to a culture that distinctly different from the ideal culture of triathlon that grew out of the 80's, etc. I take that seriously. I'm not going to listen to arguments that I shouldn't care about anyone else and should only be concerned about "doing my best." Eff that. I want to win. I want to come in 1st, not 8th. And I want to win by the letter and intent of the rules that we all race under. And I'm willing to pay extra to police those rules a little better.

>nothing is going to change.

I'm not sure the blase, resigned attitude is warranted. They got Moats!! That's a monumental victory right there! I bet Colom is on a priority list somwhere in the bowels of WTC.

No, we're not going to have UCI-calibre testing. Yes, we'll always have dopers. But I'm in the camp that we should grab the low-hanging fruit (though I hate that phrase) and test enough to catch the really stupid people, and enough to make prospective dopers think long and hard about possibly ruining their professional and social lives by being caught. That's enough for me.

Even at a race, a USADA (or other NF) rep still has to come and collect the sample. And testing to detect synthetic EPO and synthetic testosterone run about $400 each for just the test itself. (Synthetic testosterone is detected using a CIR {carbon isotope ratio} test). So if you test for both EPO and testosterone, it's $800 + collection/processing/whatever costs.


That's been pretty much agreed, with a few holdouts. The contention is the $$ and where that is going to come from.


True. See Joe Papp.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Re. point 7)

he rarely races in Spain, if he did, and he got results in National Championships or in any of the few independent races with doping tests he would be sanctioned. There is no separate PRO licence in Spain, so anybody can race and win and would get tested.

he anly races WTC events as an AG so he never gets tested.

And no, Spanish ADA doesn't test age groupers OOC, they sometimes send a targeted test to a random race to try to catch a rampant doper, but anyone who knows what he's doing won't get caught in a competition test, you have to be a fool for that to happen.

Contrary to what it looks like from outside, Spain doesn't try to hide dopers, at least not in minor sports, like triathlon. there is just not enough money to put a proper fight

I agree pretty much with all you said, except i would argue with you on this point #6 you posted;

6) Doping does not continue as a long term benefit...as a matter of fact it does the opposite in many cases, that includes ALL types of doping, steroids, EPO, T...once you remove the "assist" your body returns to normal or worse, because you may have permanently F-ed up your production of (T, RBC's, etc) as your body adapted to having naturally occurring homeostasis disrupted. As a matter of fact, mitochondrial density starts to fade in days and Vo2 improvements associated with doping (or training) has been shown to return to "normal" in 12 weeks. ///////

Just because levels return to normal does not mean there is no benefit left over. What about the strength, speed, muscle twitch, etc., that was gained during the very long periods of doping? As any athlete, especially a pro one can attest to, once you reach a certain level of speed, it is a 100 times easier to achieve it once you have laid off, or been injured, than it was to get there in the first place. You are just talking about numbers, i'm talking about performance. When i retired and was out for a very long time, i was able to come back at 50 and do a pretty decent 1/2 ironman on 6 to 9 hours a week of training. And it was solely because of how fast i was. There was a ton of muscle memory that was just laying dormant, but with just minimal training, it would awaken and i could get 95% of the way back on training that most would be out of shape with. That is the true long lasting advantage of doping. And if we are to believe that a lot of these ex pros are now clean, then how the hell are they going so fast still if they are so damaged by all the years of doping?

And it is not 0% tolerance on Testerone, looks like A-Rod actually got a TUE for it. That is going to be some shit hitting the fan there, no way he should have gotten that. But probably not that hard for a guy who did roids most his life to do a couple things to get some ridiculous low reading. It will be interesting to see what the numbers actually were when they granted him that TUE, certainly was not reported in the news when it was done. So someone is hiding something.

What is it you want to win? In the 35-39 age group the winner isn't beating Andy Potts or Jordan Rapp. Besides why should you get to decide that I get to pay for something I consider wasteful? It is amazing how easy it is to spend someone else's money.

What is it you want to win? In the 35-39 age group the winner isn't beating Andy Potts or Jordan Rapp. Besides why should you get to decide that I get to pay for something I consider wasteful? It is amazing how easy it is to spend someone else's money.

Actually, even muscle twitch recruitment/changes recede to original type/levels, all physiological gains recede, there is a decent amount of research on it and it is pretty unequivocal. That is not to say what you did, which may be residual "muscle memory" or psychological advantages. Either way dopers suck, but the fact is there aren't significant long-term advantages. In Colom's case, he doped, and because of it got to maintain a lifestyle of top notch coaching and training which IS a significant advantage, as we all know mileage on your legs doping or not provides significant advantages.

My main statement, was to clarify some common myths, which many people mistakenly believe. The outrage should be on the lack of testing, WTC makes a boat load of cash, they sure as heck aren't putting it into pro prize purses...so do something other than line your own pockets, especially now that Providence has taken their investment back out, they are leveraged on house money.

As for A-Rod, MLB is not a member of USADA/WADA, American professional leagues are closed private businesses and they don't answer to anyone, except congress (and only under threat of removing their anti-trust exemption). If you go to USADA or WADA site they actually have the zero tolerance TUE for Testosterone posted, since they get a decent amount of calls daily on it.

>What is it you want to win? In the 35-39 age group the winner isn't beating Andy Potts or Jordan Rapp.

Actually I'm a cyclist, occasionally a triathlete, so I'm projecting my argument because it's pretty similar. :) But the answer is, "I want to win races." I train hard. I fully understand it's recreational, I'm not ProTour, and I'd get dropped like a toilet seat by even the lowest-level pro. But I want to win races, nonetheless, against the categories that have been set up for amateur racing.

The desire to win races fairly is the entire underpinning of competitive sport.

And because it's cycling, I do actually win cash. Several hundred dollars so far this year. Yes, it's token money. But it covers the entry fees + gas!

>Besides why should you get to decide that I get to pay for something I consider wasteful?

The pat answer: Why should you get to decide that it's acceptable to allow cheaters into my sport, something I consider abhorrent?

The respectful answer: I don't get to decide. I get to use my speech to influence like-minded people towards a consensus that I agree with. That's all.

>It is amazing how easy it is to spend someone else's money.

My money too. I donated my own money to USAC's "RaceClean" program, above and beyond the compulsory amount. (It's tax deductible!)

IMHO a dick move

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Lewis

Would you be able to elaborate which move you are referring to? That might clarify your views.

Isn't a hobby sport like a triath-a-lon the perfect place for banned or retired professionals to continue an active lifestyle?

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Lewis

If there are studies to show that a long term comprehensive doping program leaves absolutely no benefit when the doping stops, I would be HIGHLY suspicious of the methodology. What we see in the real world seems to prove otherwise. Pretty much without question.

I think someone should take a beachball with Dopers Suck or Doper written on it and toss it to a doper on stage in Kona. Good money shot after he/she catches it.

Fark em this sport has no omertà

Dev I don't think Sam will let him beat him at Kona.:0) oh and herbert / Slowman the title of the sorry should have been
" Sam Gyde makes OUR point!".

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The one where he got on stage dressed like a homeless kid who wrote on himself with a marker

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Lewis

At present a professional athlete who dopes and gets caught can always come back to racing, if not pro then age group. With a life time ban the average age grouper who has a chance to qualify can still pay his money, and take part in a fair race. As it stands you pay your money and then have to chance your arm against cheaters who have unnatural benefits over your efforts. How can that be right?

Folks who say Colom is within the rules fair enough. But I say Sam is also within the rules to stand on stage in his T-shirt and make his protest so if you are going to fall on the side of Colom and say he is within the rules, don't critisise Sam because he is also within the rules.

F**& you former pro dopers, taking slots away from paying working age groupers.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

I don't get to decide that it is okay to allow cheaters in the sport. Only the actual cheaters decide that. And that occurs with or without drug testing. No one was popped for PEDs at Kona last year. Do you take that to mean it was a 100% clean race or that someone got away with cheating? You can build a dam to prevent water from flooding your town. Water has physical properties that are predictable. You cannot do the same thing to prevent cheating. The war on drugs has been a waste of a trillion dollars. More or less the same number of people use drugs now as they did in 1980.

That is a ridiculous statement. People were dying from EPO use right up until the late 00's. Since the change in attitude towards drug use, EPO use and the slow but steady death of the Omerta the deaths due to hearts stopping due to thick blood seem to have stopped. Weird that isn't it? I would say that the money spent on fighting drugs is a tiny percentage of the overall money that gets ploughd into sport so brands can market their goods and has been money very well spent. I would hate to think I get my Son involved in an activity that will eventually lead him to using PED's risking his health, just because its expected at a certain level in sport. I think the money has changed attitudes, saved lives and future generations from using PED's. Maybe you should have a think about what you have written in a wider context because I think you are just plain wrong.

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

If the guy served his time for doping then what else should he do? I read the article as a bit of sour grapes by Glyde. Nina served her suspension for doping and still still races and no one is calling for her to stop.

He should have had a life ban like Lance. Piss off from endurance sports, forget about what it feels like to stand on top of the podium and go and play golf with his friends.

These douches are not welcome in our sport. And we all should let them know it as much as we can.

I understand your feelings here but if the rules allow him to compete then he is allowed to compete.

Being 'allowed' to do something and whether you 'should' do something are very very different concepts.

He shouldn't be competing.

But he obviously has a different moral radar. Fark him and his ilk.

Without question? Christ, with the amount of armchair science-ing going on in this thread, we could find a cure for cancer.

First, most studies don't say "absolutely no benefit", just that the benefit is either negligible or offset by the downsides (damaged natural hormone production or uptake). After two years, the better training in the past starts to fade, and the reduced capacity starts to take it's toll.

Second, if anything, that's what we see in the real world. Lots of dopers come back from their bans weaker, tire more quickly, and fade faster than before. Jonathan Vaughters is one of the few people who have power files pre- and post-bans of riders, and his experience should carry a bit more weight than a Slowtwitcher's "I think".

If you think for a second that you (or any age-grouper short of Gyde and his sub-9 peers) stood a chance against a hypothetical dope-free Colom, you can stop deluding yourself. To become a doping euro-pro, you first have to become a euro-pro. You have to show enough potential in the junior and U23 ranks, prove to others that you're worth the investment - EPO ain't cheap, you know. You can't turn a mule into a derby winner, and each and every one of these busted dopers would be a top-level athlete without it.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

You are arm-chair sciencing as well as the rest. Cherry-picking studies that inevitably say "more research needed" and citing them as indesputible proof is not only arm chair science it is bad science dressed up as conclusive evidence.

And starting on the "these guys are great even if they hypothetically didn't dope, so shut up as they would have beaten you", is nothing less than a pathetic argument devoid of not only science but reason and common sense.

I have always asked why a number of triathletes, like Nina, who were caught using drugs, then raced after their penalty, do not have the same anger directed at them as do a few like Lance.

I guess at the end of the day is it worth all the negative energy being spent on a cheater, bully or whatever you want to call them? They really just want attention. So the best way to deal with these kind
of folks is to make them invisible! Never talk about them, etc. That would really drive them nuts.

And if you really wanted to make a statement, all the rest of the podium winners should have not gone up on the stage. Having him stand their by himself would have made a much stronger statement.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Oh boy...you are probably a nice guy (or gal), are very intelligent, and could defend your position reasonably well, even if most of us (including me) would disagree with your reasoning. But since this is slowtwitch, be prepared to have your entire family history, your educational background, your religious beliefs, and your morals attacked. Too bad...I would have liked for you to have the chance to explain your views. Good luck with that.

The "War on Drugs" is about psychoactive drugs, not EPO. EPO does not have the violence and fatality rates to be compared, and completely lacks the widespread addiction that is the inherent problem. It is a performance enhancer affecting a small sub population, with a miniscule fatality rate. The statement about the waste of money on the "War on Drugs" is astute for many reasons...