I would agree. Bio passports are off-the-charts impractical and too expensive for AG testing. It's a shame of course, because it's about the only fool-proof way to catch careful dopers. But at least in my scenario above I think a lot of potential AG dopers would be deterred from doing it.

Kevin Moats was tested OOC , so it can happen if the powers to be want it to happen.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I don't know, man...I'm totally ignorant of the process. I honestly have not taken the time to read up on how it's done. I was just assuming they kept the samples and could test them at a later date if need be.

I agree with your point. Want to improve AG testing, then actually do AG testing. Don't sit behind this idea that you can get tested anywhere at anytime, because to me, that's too easy of an out for why we aren't doing more testing. Of course I also don't think anyone really wants to do AG testing for various reasons (funding, hobby sport, looks bad, etc etc). So it's really just argumentative fodder for folks.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

With that process, I'm pretty sure you have to get a baseline of testing on the athlete and then when you retest down the road, you can compare it to the baseline test. If any abnormalities show up, that's when they are "busted" without an actual positive testing. That's how Mark Fretta, of the ITU was busted a few years back, as he never had a positive test when he was given the ~10 year ban or however long it was.

So in that process, you cant just say you have the process. Athletes will either know they have been baseline tested or not. So any athlete that didn't get baseline tested, would then only have to worry about an actual positive test, as the baseline comparison wouldn't be applicable.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Yes, quite. And of the three I have to wonder how much of it is "looks bad" as far as WTC is concerned. If the UCI, FIFA etc can be seen to be turning a blind eye to doping in their sports, what kind of conflict of interest does WTC have? Similar to the NBA etc. I have to imagine. These are essentially for-profit, self-policing organisations. So you're right. All this is probably just more verbal masturbation on the topic and nothing is going to change.

I will say this... I have been coached by Sam and this made me proud to see... he is not only incredibly talented but devoted to clean racing and training... his work ethic is amazing (which he showed me through his coaching)... he has balls the size of basketballs for doing this. he doesn't back down from what he believes in (powercranks being one of those things ;) ) and I respect him for that... way to go Sam!!!!

I don't really know cost numbers, but passport would be really expensive. Again, as I pointed out earlier to use the pros as an example. I haven't been tested enough to have a 'passport'. You can look at the USADA list that I posted and kind of surmise that at least several of those pros on the list who have been tested in excess of say 2 or 3 times in the fist 2 quarters might have enough info for a passport.

Passport testing for age groupers would be very expensive. I mean the way that an NGB would have to do it. You can go down to 'AnyLabTestNow' and get a CBC pretty cheaply. That gives hematocrit and hemoglobins, but I don't think that it gives reticulocytes...which have been pointed out as important in some of the cycling revelations.

There would have to be some standard of control, etc. That's why there are only certain accredited labs...I think.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Very cool that Sam sticks up for powercranks since I love them also and get beat up a little on ST for this. :o)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I've said it ever since cycling took it on the chin in regards to doping. If you as a sport can get away with having an doping program in pretty much "theory" only, you are going to go with that.

ETA: I laughed my ass off when Lance was getting roasted by ESPN "experts" a few years back. It was as if suddenly there was an ton of cycling experts who were talking about how dirty cycling was. Yet they wouldn't say a world about their precise NFL and it's shitty drug program standards.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

And here's my fear of why that wouldn't work. Testing gets announced as all KQ/World qualifiers. Program goes into effect, and because only the dumb and stupid get caught you get maybe 4 or 5 people caught out of all the tests for 2 years. WTC wonders why they are spending 8 million+ a year to catch 4 people. Conclusion is that there is no AG doping and program gets scrapped.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

I'd much rather see a program that shows actual testing numbers and sticks to it, and not just sitting behind this general guise of "well you can get tested at any moment, so stop doping". That to me is to easy to sit on your hands and pound your chest and say "see we are doing something about testing....we just aren't testing often, but well you better not dope because we may still show up at your house".

ETA: Of course because of finances (I don't believe for a sec WTC spends $8mil a year on AG testing), WTC/USAT can live with the scare tactic drug program. That's all we are going to be able to ever have. You'll never see a program that dedicates lots of testing to certain athletes. It's always going to be the very very random/few tests, and WTC/USAT/Rev3 can put out a cute press release out each year, "Please be advised with our drug program that you can be tested at any moment", regardless if they actually do any substantial testing from that ruling.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

8 million would buy you approximately 10,000 tests. I'd rather see 10,000 random OOC tests performed on proven top achievers than on race finishers.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

The day WTC spends $8mil on AG testing, I'll glady sit back and STFU and let them do it however they want to do it.
ETA: Is that their annual budget on AG testing, $8mil? Is that verified anywhere? I have a hard time believing WTC has paid for and/or performed ~10k AG drug tests. Bravo to them if they have, I just would like to see it verified somewhere.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Memory fail?

The 8 mil is what I guesstimated it would cost to test all the KQ/WQ + 20 random people at each WTC event.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Sighs, that is the issue with AG testing. WTC doenst want to spend $8mil on AG testing. That's the whole point, we are just all racing under a guise of AG drug testing.

ETA: I should also add this applies to USAT/Rev3/name of your local RD in terms of actually doing an AG testing. It's too much of an hobby sport and too much of an for profit industry, to really have an affective doping program, an program that will go after it's own customers in the process. Yes USAT is an non-profit. No one wants to actually spend the money and make the athletes spend more money to make an program that has 10k tests per year. That's where we are at, and likely will always be at. We are going the way of the NFL much more than an WADA sanctioned sport, and that's because there is no need for the WADA approved doping tests. It's much easier to run a business like the NFL where they can dictate how little or more they want to spend on doping, than to be held accountable by HAVING to do an certain drug standard.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

But they would only have to test a fraction of that to have a massive deterrent effect on AG doping. The situation now is that age groupers see absolutely zero risk of being caught. Zero. But test just 5 age groupers (preferably podium finishers) at just 5-10 races each year and you would scare a lot of potential age group dopers away from doing it.

But right now it seems to me that WTC is just paying lip service to the idea of AG testing, apart from a handful of Kona finishers each year.

I also edited my comment to make it where the industry standard is to pay lip service to this issue, it's not just WTC. But it's precisely because we are talking about the hobby/business side of triathlon, not necesssarly the high performance/fairness side of racing.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I'm a little late to this party, but i do have some insight to add.
1) testing for EPO and testosterone is not "expensive", the earlier reference to australia is most likely for having a rep come and collect the sample, which is different than collect at a race. Testosterone tests are about $40.

2) Testosterone has a HUGE effect on recovery/endocrine responses, it is probably the most "valuable" drug for endurance athletes behind EPO, it also has a really short half-life and is hard to get a "overuse amount" nailed down. That is why it is the ONLY 0% tolerance drug from WADA unless you have an absolute value of 0 from an organic disability (testicular cancer or massive radiation). Every male over 50 has low T compared to when he was 25, and all you need for a script is a doctor to ask if you are tired, lethargic, less interested in sex, then they do the blood test and if you number is on the "low end" they will give you a script, then you can use extra on hard training days....see how that works. Abuse of it is so easy with a script.

3) WTC should be testing All KQ qualifiers and a few random FOPers, there is much more doping in AG racing than many people actually think, if you don't believe there is a cheating culture, what about drafting?

4)The profile of many AG triathletes, from personality type to socioeconomic status are more likely to be the type of folks who would dope. if you have the means and the motivation, it is more likely.

5) Dan said it best "I pay $800, WTC OWES us a clean race"

6) Doping does not continue as a long term benefit...as a matter of fact it does the opposite in many cases, that includes ALL types of doping, steroids, EPO, T...once you remove the "assist" your body returns to normal or worse, because you may have permanently F-ed up your production of (T, RBC's, etc) as your body adapted to having naturally occurring homeostasis disrupted. As a matter of fact, mitochondrial density starts to fade in days and Vo2 improvements associated with doping (or training) has been shown to return to "normal" in 12 weeks.

7) Colom is a doper and did serve his time, he should be tested and held to a higher standard, but his results don't actually look out of order...he had a 55min swim, not sure how much EPO will improve swim technique enough to top Sam by 11 minutes, His bike was not impressive for a World tour rider racing as an AGer (it is still impressive, but not ridiculous), and his run was slower than both 2nd and 3rd, by a reasonable amount. I'm not defending him, I think ALL dopers should get the LA treatment, life without parole in every sport governed by WADA. Doping is always a choice, regardless of what "reformed" dopers say. But his current result indicates more years of training than doping. Also, he's from Spain, so don't hold your breath that their ADA/NF would do anything even if he was doping, it would be up to WTC.

8) Biopassports should be required for every pro, as a part of the application process to get your license. What makes the biopassport effective is that only the ADA knows the results, so the athletes don't know what the ADA knows about their biochem and blood numbers. Which makes it impossible to duplicate through non-natural means.

I gave my little action some more clarification in the interview with Herbert. It expresses how I feel about it pretty well. It is a topic that is not easy to solve but it is good to know that WTC 'customers' of all levels are ready stand up and fight for a fair competition. Lots of people, lots of opinions and everybody has some valid points. Thanks everybody to support this little momentum and lets try to keep it alive. The M35 guys racing in Kona will for sure!
Sam
samgyde.com

Ok.. now I'm pissed about doping.

Go get him Sam. I love you have trained 100% on your powercranks and 100% indoor trainer. I have done the same and get nailed for it all the time. Frank was at my house the other day and was
talking about you. Would be great to see him test you with his icranks.

Kick butt at Kona.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

>UCI, FIFA etc can be seen to be turning a blind eye to doping in their sports, what kind of conflict of interest does WTC have?

The problem I think is that the UCI and others *aren't* turning a blind eye. They're all getting more serious. The "but, but NFL/NBA/FIFA!" excuse that pops up in every doping thread is become harder to manage when the NFL administers 14,000 tests per year and pop guys every month.

That creates a differential.

And the potential for AG triathlon to become a refuge for unrepetent dopers who still feel the need to dominate at elite level sports, but have been rejected from their own communities. (and deep sub-9:00 at Kona in the AG field is a quasi-elite level)

At one level, it's just wrong. It's not the "triathlon culture." We'd be relinquishing the sport to a culture that distinctly different from the ideal culture of triathlon that grew out of the 80's, etc. I take that seriously. I'm not going to listen to arguments that I shouldn't care about anyone else and should only be concerned about "doing my best." Eff that. I want to win. I want to come in 1st, not 8th. And I want to win by the letter and intent of the rules that we all race under. And I'm willing to pay extra to police those rules a little better.

>nothing is going to change.

I'm not sure the blase, resigned attitude is warranted. They got Moats!! That's a monumental victory right there! I bet Colom is on a priority list somwhere in the bowels of WTC.

No, we're not going to have UCI-calibre testing. Yes, we'll always have dopers. But I'm in the camp that we should grab the low-hanging fruit (though I hate that phrase) and test enough to catch the really stupid people, and enough to make prospective dopers think long and hard about possibly ruining their professional and social lives by being caught. That's enough for me.

Even at a race, a USADA (or other NF) rep still has to come and collect the sample. And testing to detect synthetic EPO and synthetic testosterone run about $400 each for just the test itself. (Synthetic testosterone is detected using a CIR {carbon isotope ratio} test). So if you test for both EPO and testosterone, it's $800 + collection/processing/whatever costs.


That's been pretty much agreed, with a few holdouts. The contention is the $$ and where that is going to come from.


True. See Joe Papp.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Re. point 7)

he rarely races in Spain, if he did, and he got results in National Championships or in any of the few independent races with doping tests he would be sanctioned. There is no separate PRO licence in Spain, so anybody can race and win and would get tested.

he anly races WTC events as an AG so he never gets tested.

And no, Spanish ADA doesn't test age groupers OOC, they sometimes send a targeted test to a random race to try to catch a rampant doper, but anyone who knows what he's doing won't get caught in a competition test, you have to be a fool for that to happen.

Contrary to what it looks like from outside, Spain doesn't try to hide dopers, at least not in minor sports, like triathlon. there is just not enough money to put a proper fight