he wants to cash in just like canseco did

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Formely stef32

Ding Ding. Tell em what he's won Bob!

I think the only big thing in there (because almost all of it was already told by Hamilton) was the part about the doping going on before Armstrong joined the team. Kind of blows a big whole in the Armstrong as doping king pin theory.

P.S.- I already have a copy pre-ordered on my Nook app.

....and to all those that backed him both financially, and verbally, just another kick in the teeth.

He cheated, he got caught, he lied, and asked for assistance professing his innoncence for years.....nice, real nice

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>X
If you run long enough....something is bound to happen

It is very sad... eventually the same will happen to Lance... on a much larger scale of course.

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how do you write this stuff about Hamilton and say what you do about Armstrong?

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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Tyler Hamilton is simply a "tool". He gets popped because he too stupid to get popped then feels the need to out everyone else for a few bucks. He lived that life with all these guys and I hope he can sleep at night. I doubt it.
I lost any respect for the guy long ago.

So "omerta" He lived that life and now should keep his mouth shut about doping?

yes, he should shut up, move on, get a real job like everyone else. seems like some guys just can't stay away from the spotlight, even if it means playing the role of the reformed, righteous former doper. would he be doing this if he didn't want/need the income and the attention? he was a douche, and he should just get a job at the local car wash and make an honest living doing hard work.

Sure but that doesn't mean you have to use a thread title that creates all kinds of ugliness in my mind. How am I supposed to erase that?

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A douche? No, he was a Hero!

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ring=tyler%20;#36396

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I am waiting for Georgie's stuff to come out if it ever does. I would bet he knows some shit about almost everyone that has swung a leg over a bike in the peloton. No one really hates him, and he married a Podium girl.

I am going to ask what is potentially a really stupid question, so, don't tear into me too much. We keep hearing how these guys doped for years. When are we going to learn how they beat all the testing? I know EPO testing has not been around forever, but, what I want to hear from these guys is how did they beat the testing?

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Ashenden and others have already shared this. Its actually discussed daily on twitter. Go read Jonathan Vaughters twitter feed (hes verified, so its not just some kook), and go read Ashenden's various interviews. There's tons of info on how they beat it.

The information is already readily available in books or in many places on the net. It is not really a mystery at all on how to do it. It is especially easy when you always or nearly always have advance notice of the drug tests (which apparently the usps team did). If you're technically savvy (or paying big bucks to technically savvy, uh, "doctors" for advice), it is remarkably easy to beat every test if you do your homework.

Most smart and unbiased drug testers will tell that it is very, very hard to catch dopers via urine and blood tests. Sure, they catch a few, but easily 95% of doping athletes (that are on a clever program) will beat the tests. Especially when some types of PED or practices simply have no test at all for them. And when, in cycling, the compounds of interest don't actually have to be in your system at all during competition.

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Thanks for info. I am curious to see how it was done.

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More details in this article.

Alomg with the USPS who else was their sponsors ? In there lies the answer to your question.

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Hincapie's testimony will eventually come out. It will be interesting to see what the Lance apologists will say about that.

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Well back in the era of Tyler and Floyd the testing was pretty much set up to allow cheating. Floyd's case is a great example. They allowed up to a 4:1 testosterone/epitestosterone ratio (normal is 1:1), but only when you exceeded the ratio did they test for the presence of synthetic testosterone. Cheaters just had to keep their steroid consumption low enough to stay below the limit.

I have to admit that I will get the book. I raced during that era and just got my ass handed to me whenever those guys showed up. It will be interesting to finally find what was really going on. At the time, I just figured those guys were just way more talented. I am sure many were more talented, just not that much better!

some guys just can't stay away from the spotlight, even if it means playing the role of the reformed, righteous former doper.

Hardly. Like Floyd, Tyler has paid and paid for his sins... and he will continue to. He is far from getting rich on anything. I don't really care what his motivation is... the truth is nice. Lance? Doesn't look like it.

Asked and answered....they were coerced into cooperating or they wer paid.

Didn't you see Uncle Phil's rant.....er, interview?

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I think the only big thing in there (because almost all of it was already told by Hamilton) was the part about the doping going on before Armstrong joined the team. Kind of blows a big whole in the Armstrong as doping king pin theory.

According to Andreau, Lance doped before he was on Postal. I'm pretty sure the majority of pros did. Rather than a "kingpin" think of it as a guy who was clearly the team boss, pushing and facilitating riders to perform beyond (or at least up to the limits of) their pay grade.

I find it funny that we hear stories from everyone who has gotten popped over the years and they mimic each other in methods drugs etc.

Then people say Frankie, Landis & Hamilton etc are discredited because they lied. Are they liars about things yes. Does that make them a liar about everything? No.

Why can't people see the forest through the trees?

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High level athletes are constantly told how special they are, directly or indirectly, most likely since they were kids. Take that away and then what?

I would submit that we don't know what "the truth" is, simply because in order to write and sell a book you have to write a story that is juicy enough. There are certainly enough memoir scandals in recent years to prove that you can't trust them. (and this has nothing to do with Lance.)

Where did you see this? Of course it still doesn't change the fact that people are trumpeting how LA got everyone to dope at USPS and he was the big doping kingpin (heck, that's why Tygart wanted to bring him down..to save cycling!)

Eric, good call :)......My statement.....I know exactly how doping was done in the pro peleton for a number of years, in fact, I know how you still could dope and never get caught (Floyd almost had it right, but got drunk that one night)......do I think the LA doped, in my simple opinion yes, do I think he was the only one, I'm laughing as I type this, no.
The issue I have is there is no smoking gun, just a bunch of very motivated witnesses (intimidation by USADA is very motivating), and a whole bunch of scientific nothing....Justice should be blind, with no bias, it should be fair, and seen to be fair.....innocent until "proven" guilty, not alledged...........this point of view may go back to my relative being sent to the Virginia colony for "stealing a loaf of bread" (no trial, husband not told, despite her being pregnant, and that he owned the bakery !!!!)

Why do I think LA stopped fighting....eventually he would have been in the Roger Clemens position, with no opportunity to take the 5th, and having to prove his innocence instead of the USADA proving his guilt.....now the USADA will have to show their cards in a future hearing, and LA then restart the crap throwing.

Really just one positive test, just one, is that too much to ask for....this would have been so much easier, and this forum would have to find something else to throw monkey poo about

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>X
If you run long enough....something is bound to happen

Lance said he had doped while being treated for cancer.

Lance is being brought down because he is famous/ infamous... the boss... the most famous cyclist of this generation... who managed to evade sanction during his career. Why waste tremendous resources pursuing little fish, when you can bag the Great White? Systematic doping on Postal would not have happen without his encouragement... and possibly his demand.

One positive test? Really, it would of made a difference? Why? Lance is beloved more than Tyler or Floyd ever were and when their positive test first came out, how many believed they were innocent? Look on these threads how Contrador was treated unfair. If there was one the same spin of witch hunt, unfair, cannot trust the process would of come out and it would be the same as it is now. There is plenty of evidence that would be allowed in any court of law. Your choice to believe if there is enough evidence or not.

Lance allegedly said he had doped. Which as even denied by the doctor. Of course once again this does not disprove what I said, but keep trying to push the "Lance is the bad man who made everyone in cycling dope" angle that Tygart wants everyone to believe.

Quote:

Systematic doping on Postal would not have happen without his encouragement... and possibly his demand.

COME ON. you damn well know it would have happened with our without him.

Would you, or if you have children would you let them, join a team sponsored by LA, with Bruyneel as DS and Ferrari as the team doctor?

More from Tyler:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...tm_campaign=features

What truly surprised me in this whole story is how corrupt the UCI is...

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I'm shocked shocked shocked that the guy who defied the ban on competing in apartheid South Africa is of questionable moral character.

X2.

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

It's too bad that he went down the road and now is taking it out on others.
I knew Tyler, raced with him. Nice, quiet, soft spoken guy.
I can remember back in 1998 in our local crit series after Tyler came back from camp with USPS he started lapping the field every week he was there. There were some big engines there and he made us feel like grand moms on trikes. The year before it was neck and neck.

Make sense now when I think about it for sure! 2% makes you lap a 1.5 miles circuit pretty quickly!

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CyclingSessions

BelieveLance.com website is coming soon.

Followed by the BelieveUCI.com quickly thereafter.

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Suffer Well.

The simplest way is probably plasma dilution. You learn in advance of your pending test (a test which looks for elevated numbers of red blood cells per unit volume), so your doctor sits you down with a saline drip and monitors your blood cell concentration until it is within passing limits. Then you head over to the test, pleased as punch because you are clean as a whistle.

I am interested to learn of his dealings, if he tells it, of working with Dr. Checchini whom he called "a great friend" back in the CSC/Phonak days. And of course, Checchini being "Mr. 60/Riis" doctor during his rein. It surprises me Checchini has not been called to task like Ferarri has.

I am also fascinated that no ones seems to be outlining how Phonak's ownership and directors are all running BMC now but that's another story entirely.

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@rhyspencer

So you continue to ignore/deny the positive test(s) that were swept under the rug? Just because no positives were formally announced/prosecuted does not mean they never existed.

Bad example if you're a Lance apologist. Canseco has been 100% right on basically everything.

That's what omerta means my friend!

That's apparently explained in great detail in Hamilton's book.

Really, it's easy. There's no test for blood doping, and EPO leaves the system quite quickly. So unless you're a total moron and are shooting EPO right before a stage instead of the day or week before, you won't get busted. Never mind that during the first part of the 'EPO era' there wasn't a test at all.

It's easy to beat a test when the test for what you're doing doesn't exist.

This kills me above all else... They lied before about being clean, so now that they fess up it's gotta be bunk because they're known liars. WTF?!? Simple logic exercise tells us it's not factually possible that they were lying in both cases; they either doped, or they didn't. So which is more credible, that they were lying before when they still had a contract/team to protect, or making shit up now that they have nothing to lose?

My favorite analog is the climate change deniers who try to discredit climate scientists, not with better data but simply by pointing out there was a time when it was believed the Earth was cooling... as if we must assume the science obviously can't be trusted ever again because they were wrong in the past. So by that reasoning, because it was once widely believed that the Earth was flat, all the scientific observations since that time which point to a round planet must not be credible. Apparently the science is all smoke & mirrors; and yet the Earth still exists in one form or another.

So then which is it? Is the Earth still flat? If the liar says he lied, then what's left to believe? Do the Lance-huggers' heads implode in logical contradiction, or are their brains simply not able to step back from the conundrum and re-evaluate the observable input?

Never mind your logic argument (which is sound)...

Hamilton in particular is putting himself in the crosshairs of one of the most famously litigious people in the country. Lance has his lawyers on speed-dial - shit, he probably just has them on hold, 24/7. He's sued an incredibly long list of people, for all sorts of shit.

The USA has libel laws. If what Hamilton says in his book is untrue - even a little of it - he has CERTAINLY opened himself up to a libel suit worth millions. If he's lying, Lance will take every penny he makes from this book and then some.

If Lance decides not to sue, on the other hand...........

You couldn't help yourself I see

JSA wrote:

I am going to ask what is potentially a really stupid question, so, don't tear into me too much. We keep hearing how these guys doped for years. When are we going to learn how they beat all the testing? I know EPO testing has not been around forever, but, what I want to hear from these guys is how did they beat the testing?

Even though he's been raked over the coals here for not being a lawyer, for being exasperated with the whole situation, and for, well, maybe being of a somewhat caustic disposition, Ashenden explains it all in pretty good detail: http://nyvelocity.com/...009/michael-ashenden

It works for me as far as I understand the science and the scientific process in general.

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Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

Good that this is all coming out. Let's now see if any of the organizing bodies do anything about it to stop doping in sport of cycling. I read this and think, the peloton is still doped up to this day and it's not going to end with the current system.

I am not going to wade into the discussion about anything other than logic.

This logic argument is not sound at all. While they cannot lie about being clean and being dirty about themselves. They can still lie about someone else being clean/dirty. In fact several people that we believe should know are still either covering up for Lance or discrediting Lance depending on what side of the fence the truth is on.

I am just pointing out that the logic is completely unsound and nothing else.

You're misrepresenting the argument on both sides. The wacko crowd are saying that BECAUSE they lied about doping, they MUST be lying about everything else and that they cannot tell the truth.

That question has nothing to do with the point I made.

I think logical people suggest if a person is willing to lie about one thing, how do we know when and when they are not lying? It gets to motives I guess. For me, it's very hard to believe Tyler and Floyd given the extent to which they have lied in the past. I am not sure those two even know where the truth starts and ends. George and company on the other hand are different for many people.

It was a good one though and I'll take that as a no.

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Follow the money. Tyler has now put in print things that if untrue, are grounds for a seriously hefty libel suit. If such a libel suit does not happen, occam's razor once again can come into play.

You got me, how can I argue against that "something may have existed"........and you need to call the USADA right now, because they sure haven't got any positive tests, and obviously you have all the info that they would love to have, and so would everyone else......just one positive test, just one, is that too much to ask for ?

.......keep throwing the monkey poo

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>X
If you run long enough....something is bound to happen

"While visiting Armstrong's home in Nice shortly before the 1999 Tour, Hamilton said he asked him if he had any EPO and Armstrong pointed to the refrigerator. Hamilton took it, thanked Armstrong and remarked to himself how cavalier Armstrong was about simply keeping it in the refrigerator."


This article makes Hamilton look more like a sleeze unless he's James Bond trying to take out the bad guy!

Paulo, you're a man of few words, but tell us why you dislike Lance so much.

Well to me one of the people most remarkable for not being mentioned so far is Ochowitz.

I will answer your question in a minute, but first I would like to know if you regret beating up your children as much as you did? Just answer that and I'll answer your question right away!

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You could argue against many of the detailed accounts of specific failed tests that were not prosecuted for one reason or another. They have been documented extensively. Or, you could continue to pretend that information is not out there, but I assure you I have read a lot of it myself so it certainly does exist.

Now, you could say the information about suppressed positive tests is wrong, but then you'd need to point out where and how the accounts are factually untrue to complete the argument. Perhaps all those accounts really are utter fabrications... but I personally find it hard to imagine that many people in legitimate positions of knowledge spending that much time totally making shit up when the simpler explanation that would plausibly tie it all together is that Lance really did do it.

Oh, and BTW, are you still waiting for "just one positive test" from Marion Jones? How is it she got her medals stripped?

wow. confirms my theory perhaps that all the ex-Postal guys getting caught after leaving Lance's team was not a random occurrence. Tyler, Floyd... all it took was one phone call. Vindictive.

Conjecture: no wonder Armstrong was so mad that Contador won the tour... it wasn't that he won so much as he didn't have the influence to make him pop hot, and thus was mad at the UCI.

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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I'm agog that you were surprised by that...unless that was supposed to be in pink.

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Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Canseco right about pretty much everything in his book

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When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
Ba Ba Booey

UCI = Mafia... when you finally believe it, it will be so much easier to understand how pro cycling works.

you are right, I never said he wasn't. All I'm saying is that he did it to make money so as Tyler.

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Formely stef32

I think we both agree that it's all about the $$$

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When all is said and done. More is usually said than done
Ba Ba Booey

"This article makes Hamilton look more like a sleeze..."

I don't agree. It shows a guy who was neck deep into doping and he's telling the truth now. IMO he is so much LESS of a sleeze for his honestly. 'Some people can't handle the truth.' It isn't always pretty or tidy.

I made this observation last week... it's eerily similar to the mafia. I studied the mafia a bit to add to my knowledge about clans and tribes hopefully applying it to the wars.

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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

That kind surprised too. That he is surprised I mean. It became apparent a while back. And I've wondered a lot about those riders mysteriously sick every so often. Sure some probably were but I'm sure a non negligible number were asked to leave as punishment for failing a doping test....those working with the UCI anyway.

Quote:

Of course it still doesn't change the fact that people are trumpeting how LA got everyone to dope at USPS and he was the big doping kingpin (heck, that's why Tygart wanted to bring him down..to save cycling!)

Quote:

That question has nothing to do with the point I made

You brought up the doping kingpin term and saving cycling. The question has everything to do with your point. I am of the opinion chasing the kingpins out will help clean up cycling for future riders. Again I ask:

Would you, or if you have children would you let them, join a team sponsored by LA, with Bruyneel as DS and Ferrari as the team doctor?

Even if it has nothing to do with your point, I'm interested. What's your answer?[/quote]

what, he wrote a book:? is he sure he did?? or does he want to blame his 'twin'? PINK

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That's the crazy part of all of this for me. I'm completely on board with then entire situation being corrupt from top to bottom, and yet I'm still surprised like you when the actual details come out. The truth is truly stranger than the heretofore fiction imagine about how it works.

What other forum does he have? He did the 60 minutes interview and other interviews for free. Books are a traditional way to release information.

Remember his website belivetyler.com? Looks like its been taken down, but the good news is you can still buy the merchandise here: http://www.cafepress.com/believetyler. I can somewhat understand someone lying to the doping agencies and others to protect your career initially, but this guy took it so far as to collect donations and sell crap to support a cause he knew was phoney. He was a local kid (grew up near where I lived for a long time) who did well, paid his dues on the circut, had a great story with the collarbone/grinding teeth, a nice little charity that collected used bikes for underprivledged families, and eventually went on to be a team leader at CSC and Phonak. If he just said "yeah, I did it like everyone else, sorry" and took his suspension, I'd have some residual admiration for him. Now, I think he's nothing but a douchebag. I wont give him the $1.25 or whatever royalty he gets by buying his book. Maybe I'll donate it to whatever charity his wife supports instead, she left the lying dipshit.

It took it really far. Like stratospheric levels of lying. But then, Lance Armstrong and co. were far better. They took the lying far far far away to an other galaxy...
So, I'll buy Tyler's book absolutely. He got caught. He was in a culture of cheating for over a decade, and everyone around him was lying and cheating, so he
just did the same, because that's all they knew, and maybe he didn't have the right support outside of cycling. It's not an excuse for what he did, but it surely helps
understand a bit the type of environment.

But I really have to laugh at those throwing rocks at Tyler and Floyd, when Lance has taken that to a whole new level...

Apartheid has been repealed since 1991, how old was Tyler when he defied this ban?

I understood the attitude/philosophy/motives of the UCI the day I went for an interview there (for a job). When the director of the UCI asked me what I thought about doping, his whole face froze when hearing my response, and that was the end of the interview (and of my chances to get the job).

It makes their whole attitude and way they treated riders like Obree even more un-stomachable. So worried about his inovations giving him an unfare advantage but supports a riding who is gaining an unfare advantage in another way.

It's very difficult. I'd suggest the numbers are the opposite: 95% getting caught.

If your girlfriend cheated on you, lied about it when you asked why she was suddenly spending so much time working late with a coworker, and then finally it comes out that she's having an affair, would you trust her?

The correct answer is no. And not ever trusting someone who has lied is a primary principle of the legal system.

Would that not exclude all testimony?

Shane

Sam's pretty much down to making shit up as (s)he goes along at this point...

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float , hammer , and jog

95% of cheaters are getting caught?? Either you didn't read DSW's previous message carefully, or you're way way off base.

I wonder what Lance would have done if he had got caught? Would he have taken the Dave Millar route and at least shown some remorse, or would have have gone down the "I am innocent" path like Hamilton.

If it is as it looks increasingly to be the case that Armstrong did dope then he has also lied, but he still has many fans.

What I find hard is the way different riders are treated. Some riders are found to be doping and no Pro Tour team would touch them with a barge pole or they at least have to work back up to a major team while others are welcomed back with open arms. Some riders lie and they are forgiven by many. Vervaldi hasn't ever put is hand up or shown any remorse dispite the fact that there was DNA evidence yet he still has many fans cheering him in the Vuelta and he was give a warm return to his team. Virenque lied through his teeth but came bounding back. It aslo annoys me that in other sports

If it is the case that Hincapie did dope it is annoying that he has got to end his career on his terms as a hero with no punishment.

Perhaps given that it seems many of the top riders of that era were doping perhaps a line should be drawn and we should just look forward?

In someways you feel sorry for riders of that era as it is likely many of the Cycling greats before them doped but will still be viewed fondly. Also other sports it is just brushed under the carpet to keep the ��$ rolling in from sponsors.

There are certain people you feel need to be removed from Cycling for it fully heal (Riis for one).

He got caught. And went the route: who do I need to pay?

Really? You think she was innocent in all of that? I seem to remember her maiden name being on some sort of receipt in the Puerto documents and then BOTH of them going on TV and lying up a storm about it...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

The list of positives the UCI is rumored to have swept under the rug is long. Lance hasn't been the only benefactor of their corruption...

Hey, collectors: this stuff is going to be worth big bucks someday as historical 'artifacts' of a huge blunder. Seriously. Kind of like that old US stamp where they printed the airplane on it upside down. That super rare stamp is worth a bundle, nearly a million bucks.

So stock up now while you can ...

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We must haves been in the same local races. I remember that too. Another thing I remember is that all the locals who supported him wore his foundation kits with the "I Believe" logo that had a little blood drop, referring to his situation at the time. How disgusting that Tyler allowed his friends to do that knowing inside that he'd humiliate them in the end.

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Dale Stephanos (Formerly PappaD)

Take it however you want it, in the end the question has nothing to do with my point and you still don't know my answer to it...despite thinking you do.

[/quote]
1) No I simply used a word that aptly describes what some people think of Armstrong in this whole thing.

2) I think it's funny when people start demanding answers to questions that are clearly them trying to avoid the point being made and trying to set someone up to bash them. If you really were interested in my thoughts you would first discuss the point I have made a few times instead of trying to set me up.

Hello. I'm earth. Have we met?

"There are certain people you feel need to be removed from Cycling for it fully heal (Riis for one). "


You're gonna need a bigger boat.

So, is the logical extension of this is, that if Armstrong confessed to doping, you wouldn't believe his confession because he had previously lied when proclaiming his innocence?

60 minutes for free!!!!! I don't think so

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Formely stef32

Sorry, I wasn't being specific enough. I was responding to post about the corruptness of UCI and was referencing to McQuaid.

Side note, guess who else was with McQuaid on that trip?

Hero! For sure.

Sean Kelly!

On a side note, did you know that Kelly tested positive in races in 1984 and 1988.

Now we can add Crow to the list of "liars" or people "looking for their 15 minutes fame" joining Tyler, Landis, JV, Frankie, Betsy, Anderson, USADA, WADA, AFLD and a few others I'm forgetting.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/...strong-investigation

No matter what people tell you, there wasnt money involved there. Same with Floyd. That was lance talking shit.

Not sure why you replied to me with this as I have not said either of those things (though from personal experience having nothing to do with any discussion or mention of LA I have nothing good to say about Betsy). I do have to call you out on the fact that the article only says she was questioned and says nothing of what she may or may not have said.

fully aware of that. The trip to SA and the fact that he was probably juiced for much of his career are two serious strikes against him. I think he probably gets uncomfortable any time David Harmon brings up doping.

Her comments were probably benign like everyone else's, in which case begs to question why LA folded.

Carl, nice job getting defensive in the face of an easily verified fact. I guess it did not fit your agenda so you had to do something. I am still wondering why you responded to me with that.

Echappist, half the time you can't understand Sean, so he may be telling Harmon where to get off or crying about his evil ways as a rider. LOL

jose has some love for l.a.
lanceyboy is being defended by jose
NICE!
http://www.sacbee.com/...ance-armstrongs.html

How do propose verifying what she said since that hasn't been publicized yet? Can't wait for your answer to this one.

You are dancing around the point I made. IMHO that just confirms that you have an agenda and posted the link with misinformation as a way to push that agenda and you got busted but just can't admit it.

Yep, it's Chris who's got an agenda...

On a related note, I am impressed that the PR company you work for is paying you overtime during a holiday weekend.

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How am I dancing around the fact her testimony isn't public and thus can't be verified?

So far LA is the only person who has been busted.

Well, here's a direct quote from someone who I think knows a bit more that either of us on this exact question:

"If you were careful and paid attention, you could dope and be 99 percent certain that you would not get caught�
-- Tyler Hamilton, 2012

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You are dancing around the fact that you presented the article as if said she made allegations when it did not contain anything of the sort and I called you on it.

I think you need to look up what allegation means because I didn't make any. If anything, you've displayed your bias

I have no problem admitting I have an agenda. I think people who lie in order to push their agenda or who misrepresent information to push their agenda should be called out for their bullshit.

On a related note I am impressed how obsessed you have become with me, posting about me even in threads I am not posting in. I would think a coach, especially a Portuguese one, would have way too much to do then sit on a forum all day and night insulting people in order to make himself feel better about himself.

Oh "nedbraden" your words cut so deep...

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The Triathlon Squad

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And yet, you seem to have all day, every day - to hang out here and post on ALL the Lance threads. Incessantly.

Almost like it's your job.

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float , hammer , and jog

Actually, if you notice my daytime, weekday posting went to nearly zero starting this past Monday. Coincidentally right when school started here...where I teach!

I do think it is nice that you jumped in to defend Paulo. It's cute when people defend obvious trolls like him. I do wonder when his next pouting leave of absence from the forum will occur...it should be about time for the next one.

But I really have to laugh at those throwing rocks at Tyler and Floyd, when Lance has taken that to a whole new level...

Lance is a doper and lied about it. Point conceded. When Lance subsequently asks "believers", fans, etc. for support, he does so through Livestrong, a organization that I can tell you first hand does wonderful work. Thus why LA is such a polarizing figure; it is a fabulous ethical/moral debate if the ultimate good he has achieved outweighs the years of cheating/lying. Contrast this to Tyler, who asked "believers" to donate to support his appeals process and defense costs. No greater good for society came from Hamilton, just asking for money to promote his own self interests. He is a scumbag.

I hadn't noticed. That implies a level of giving a shit I don't remotely have.

Paulo's a big boy (figuratively, if not literally). He can handle himself.

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float , hammer , and jog

Yet you commented on both. The BS meter is off the charts on you!

Quote:

1) No I simply used a word that aptly describes what some people think of Armstrong in this whole thing.

2) I think it's funny when people start demanding answers to questions that are clearly them trying to avoid the point being made and trying to set someone up to bash them. If you really were interested in my thoughts you would first discuss the point I have made a few times instead of trying to set me up.

1) Using a word is how things are brought up. If you're suggesting "kingpin" is inappropriate because events were happening before LA joined the team precludes it's appropriateness, you are wrong. Kingpins come and kingpins go. If you're suggesting that grown men gave in to doping with the others, okay. Forcing, encouraging, coercing, enabling, pressuring...what term would you prefer we use to describe LA's role?

2a) I don't need to set you up to be bashed.
2b)The question was actually my way of addressing your assertion that LA wasn't a kingpin. It's a coversational technique. One you have dodged twice.

Aren't we at the point where really, they were all juiced for much of their careers.

And a couple of LA's doctors.

Indeed, good point.

1) you still dance around the point I made. Yes, kingpins change but the argument put forth, that I am disputing using what Tyler said, was that LA was the one who got USPS doping.

2a) You seem to like to go for the insults a lot.
2b) I have no need to answer because it's obvious it was simply you trolling and because it has nothing to do with the actual discussion. No matter how much you claim otherwise or try to insult me, that fact won't change.

I think we reached that point many years ago. Now it just comes down to making excuses for doping in the past.

I'm waiting for bruyneel, the UCI, Carmichael, to all crash in flames too. Bunch of crooks. And using livestrong as a shield against doping accusations is by far the worst he has done.

I personally want to see the Livestrong tax filings from 2011 and 2012. IIRC, the amount for lawyer expenses went up quite a bit between 2008 and 2009, and I wonder if the same trend has continued.

But think of the foundation's jet fuel savings now that there's no need to dodge USADA controls.

It's funny how everyone says: it's a foundation that does a lot of good, and it must go on. I agree. It should. But not at all cost.
The Susan Komen foundation, despite doing a lot for cancer patients, survivors, etc. was under fire big time for its stand regarding
planned parenthood. People stood against the SK foundation, and it backtracked. Livestrong will survive even if Lance comes clean
(I think). Actually, given people's very short memory, I'm sure a good PR group will turn things around nicely after a few months of coming
clean, and maybe to everyone's advantage. This is America after all ;-)

If you believe that the truth sets you free, then it may be that Tyler is now free, Floyd is now free, Vaughters is free. Not rich, but free.

Lance has the jet, the dough, the broads, the Taiwanese houseboy named Tang (not starting anything here) and continues to be defiant, continues to rationalize his behavior, continues to "protect the brand", continues to receive adoration from sycophantic cycling fans and legitimate admirers of his good works for cancer. And, one presumes, he could feel that he cannot come clean because it would ruin Livestrong and would be selfish.

But he's not free, is he? He keeps living a lie. Or a bunch of them. But does he need to come clean? Can he live a great life with a clear conscience or without a clear conscience? Is it simply a question of being pragmatic? Does this way of living work? Can a man live a life of integrity anyway? Is his conscience clear? And do public (or private) confessions really set one free?

Or is Lance just a dick?

So many questions.

Tell me, oh sage online rabbis and grand arbiters of life....

It's verboten to suggest such a thing, but the world would not be significantly, if at all, worse off without LiveStrong. (the .org that is, not the .com).

1. Charitable giving is not a zero-sum game, but it's close to it. Money that would have gone to LiveStrong.org will instead go to other charitable organizations. Another way to look at it is that LiveStrong's existence is reducing charitable receipts for other charities (and vice versa). So, unless you think LiveStrong is a more worthy charity to receive money than others, the loss of LiveStrong would not have a net negative effect on the world.

2. LiveStrong does not support cancer research. Again, $0 from LiveStrong go to cancer research. LiveStrong's programs are for cancer "awareness" and to help families of cancer victims negotiate the difficult insurance and financial terrain they find themselves in. Without doubt, this is of great value to some people, but a relatively small set of people compared to those who stand to benefit from scientific cancer research (ie, do a google search on the gains made in treating and preventing melanoma in recent years). In a 2 year span, only 207 people were helped via LiveStrong's walk-in center. And, I don't know what the fungible term "cancer awareness" really means. Are people unaware of cancer? LiveStrong counts all of its marketing dollars for PR, yellow bracelets, ads, etc... not as expenses, but as cancer awareness programs. "Awareness" programs. So, when you donate or buy your $1 bracelet, a substantial chunk of that money is used for programs with the sole intent of building the LiveStrong brand.

The majority of cancer charities put money towards cancer research. If LiveStrong were to disappear and the majority of receipts they would have received become spread across a variety of other cancer charities, then the net dollars going towards scientific cancer research would actually increase.

Your second point isn't really correct. They do a lot of work pertaining to cancer screening and prevention, which is part of research. There are some
cancers for which screening is a key element to curing (colorectal for instance).

"In a 2 year span, only 207 people were helped via LiveStrong's walk-in center."

i was at the livestrong headquarters when they had their big shindig with all their folks from around the country come in. that's how they do it. it all emanates from one building. they don't have chapters. they think that would be an inefficient - for them - use of their dollars.

if i had a particular cancer, and i wanted to make sure i had the best outcome, i would not fly to austin and avail myself of the walk-in center.

i wrote about this over the past spring if you care to read about it. i went into it expecting that the outside mag article was correct. i came out of it realizing - after i read that article for the 6th or 7th time - that the author went in intending to write a particular piece, and decided to write that piece, evidence to the contrary.

this is of course completely separate from the question of whether armstrong took PEDs. a vehement critic of armstrong is former velo news write charles pelkey. but charles is himself a recent cancer survivor, and charles very carefully parses between livestrong and armstrong. he's a fan of one and a critic of the other.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

42? :p

Quote:

Yes, kingpins change but the argument put forth, that I am disputing using what Tyler said, was that LA was the one who got USPS doping.

Ok, got it. I agree. LA did not start the doping in cycling, by this particular team, or any other sport. Many doped before his entry into the peloton, concurrent to his career, and after his departure; independent of his sphere of influence. Based on his interactions with former teammates and the UCI, I still believe he was one of the kingpins in his sphere of influence.

Quote:

I have no need to answer because it's obvious it was simply you trolling and because it has nothing to do with the actual discussion. No matter how much you claim otherwise or try to insult me, that fact won't change.

I haven't insulted you at all. It's absolutely germain to the discussion. If the people named in USADA's allegations aren't promoters of doping, as you seem to believe, the answer should be simple. Actually, when I came to see the value in banning ALL of the ring leaders for life was when I put together how much influence they've had. I don't want them around to influence future riders. It really doesn't matter who started the doping on any given team, I wouldn't want to be part of a team lead by the afore mentioned, nor would I want my children involved with them.

my first post in a lance thread....

Livestrong does more than you outlined......

"Livestrong will survive even if Lance comes clean "

If LA comes clean will people call him a liar and refuse to believe him just as they are doing with Tyler and Landis right now?

This is an important point. There is a difference, though there are still blurred lines than need to be made clean. Livestrong spends ~250k annually to sponsor Lance's U23 cycling team. Why? U23 teams don't make cycling headlines outside of core cycling fans so explain the ROI here? Sure they had a lot of talent this year, and had some pretty good success, but when this season is over, and Lance has to give up the U23 license, will livestrong spend ~250k to sponsor another team in the name of awareness if it's owned by someone else? I personally doubt it. There are a couple other questionable fronts regarding the spending habits of Livestrong in regards to Lance's interest but that's the example i think illustrates why many who are anti-lance have a hard time separating the two.

I think Livestrong does a good job, And I think it can do more. Hopefully the rumored influx of donations are well used.

And yet Contador did eventually pop for clen. maybe it was more of "not right now lance, it'll look too obvious"

For people outside of the European professional cycling world it is impossible to understand the situation with doping. It is impossible to understand the group dynamics, the pressure, the 'ethics,' the history. I haven't raced in Europe, but I have worked with people who have and when you get past about 1000 walls you find out what it was really like and it's the kind of thing that would make being the top-target-geek in high-school look like Christmas at Baskin Robbins being served by strippers (male or female, depending on your preference).

From what I've heard it was a situation like going into the army or severe fraternity hazing - your self-worth is destroyed systematically so that you can be rebuilt as a cyclist who is willing to dope, and then when you dope and get the results or do the work that the team wants you to you are worthwhile. And it's OK that you're doping to do it because everyone is; because that is the only way to get through the ridiculous, demanding races that the sponsors and fans want to see. And now that you are doping you have to stay quiet about it, if you speak out the entire world that you live in will come crashing down on you and everyone that is your friend now will hate you and all the self-worth that you have (which was given to you by the team and people that you doped with) will be destroyed and there will basically be no reason to go on living.

The number of cyclists on anti-depressants and using recreational drugs to combat the psychological disaster that this system breeds I'm told was ridiculous.

You can fault Tyler for lying in the past, sure, I do. But I understand it. To say that he lied before so now he's lying too is preposterous if you know the culture - it's almost like Stockholm Syndrome where you have to love your captors and be willing to protect them at any cost. I give him a ton of credit for talking out, and I really wish that he could only have done it sooner.

Sure, cycling gave Tyler everything he had, but the detritus of living that lie took it all away from him as well.

Um, because maybe her comments were NOT benign. No doubt Lance spoke to her and especially Hincapie to find out what they were gonna say. They most likely told Lance they would not publicly turn on him, even for money, but they also most likely told him in no uncertain terms that they weren't going to lie under oath for him. Hence, he folded. Is this really too difficult for people to see?

It's no harder to see than sarcasm...

Carl, you're such a lance fanboy!!

Well said.
Motorola showed up in Italy in '96 (?) with a bunch of US studs and couldn't hang onto the back of the race. They quickly got with the program.
The rest is history.

Motorola begans in '91 (and was really the same team as 7-11, which showed up in Europe in '85).

Why would it take until showing up in Italy in '96 tostartma doping program?

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I kind of want to get one now as it now back in style.

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Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

Because EPO use was rampant in '96 and not possible in '85.

EPO was rampant since the early 90's....

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

LiveStrong does not support cancer research

This typically comes as a surprise to many. Bill Gifford's piece in Outside published earlier this year delves into this in detail. Dan E mentioned it in a previous post here. Like Dan said, beyond the whole PED issue, it's important to understand what Livestrong actually does:

http://www.outsideonline.com/...b-Rats.html?page=all

The way I interpret it, Livestrong fills a bit of a gap. It serves as a point of assistance, and an agency of help and information dispensation, for those stricken with cancer and for their families. This is a good thing - I would imagine that staring down the barrel of a serious diganosis of Cancer, you would want that sort of help.

As for Armstrong himself, the obvious figure-head of Livestrong, I have seen even some of his harshest critics, say despite, the whole PED issue, he gives those stricken with cancer the one thing they really need, hope!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Sure and Motorola needed to get on the program whenever it was they went to Europe. If that wasn't '96 then whenever that was.

Try again. I thought you had done so much research? All of this started when Floyd got busted, took millions pf dollars from others and then when he lost his case against usada, and felony charges were initiated against him, he responded by suing lance and us postal for potentially millions of dollars in a whistleblower qui tam false claims suit. That suit is still pending. And the DOJ is still considering joining.

Think you forgot the ToC incident

Actually I didn't. Floyds financial, legal (and personal) troubles well predated the ToC events. But yes, I agree, the ToC events further precluded him from earning any income, thereby adding to his debt, and overall making him even more desperate (both financially and emotionally).

I think this line from the article puts the lie to any idea that legalizing doping will create a level playing field:

""He called Hein, after Ventoux. Said you guys and Mayo were on some new shit, told Hein to stop you,"�Landis is quoted as saying."

So there will always be either some dudes chemically ahead of the others, or some dudes crying foul because of perceived advantages. The irony here is that it is LA allegedly complaining about others beating him and the rest at a game they were all playing. And the implication is that one operation is controlling what is "fair"....or "level".

I think you are missing the point - the 7-11 / Motorola team had been on the Continent for quite awhile, and been successful. In addition, many of their riders are widely respected and accepted as being ardently anti-dope. Start with Andy Hampsten for one example.

Did Motorola riders dope? Almost certainly. Was there a systemic doping program there? I have no idea. Was showing up in Italy in any particular year and getting their asses kicked the genesis of a doping program? Certainly not.

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That is not correct. Flandis did not start hisq whistle-blower suit until some months after he made his revelations / accusations about Lance.

IIRC, it wasn't until the Feds had already started their inquiry before Flandis filed his suit.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I still can't understand why, knowing what we know now, why did Floyd spend so much money defending himself?

Sunk costs fallacy.

Fixed it for you.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I still can't understand why, knowing what we know now, why did Floyd spend so much money defending himself?

It's part of the "deny, deny, deny" reflex. Athletes will keep doing that despite mountains of evidence to the contrary until:

1. They finally are in a legal-under-oath situation and have to admit the truth ( but even here some will still maintain the lie and perjure themselves)

2. Run out of money and have to reverse course, confess, and then make more money off of the confession/whistle-blowing side

3. Leave the sport completely(retire), and want to clear their heads/conscious

Why do they do this - I guess at some base level we are driven by money or ego, so whatever the situation with whatever athlete, they do whatever they do, to ensure some form of livelihood and ego is maintained

It's rare for an athlete to say - "OK, I doped and I am done" That's like a financial death sentence for an athlete these days.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Haven't riders and the team doc talked about this? About riders coming to him for dope since they were clearly off the pace? EPO changed the game because it was so effective that it made it necessary to dope to be competitive.

I don't recall when Motorola went to Europe but they almost certainly realized the nature of the game at that point and what was required.

Landis was busted in 2006. He was thrown out of the protective cocoon of UCI/USAC he had expected to cover him based on living within it and seeing it in action with Lance at USPS. For four years, Landis was run through the ringer and was cycling's fall guy. He knew everybody doped, he knew the powers-that-be in cycling knew that everybody doped, but he was the one being thrown to the wolves. Made him somewhat bitter, I imagine.

2010 Landis wants to get back into pro cycling. He wants back in with the in crowd. He's got a new hip and thinks he can still compete. He has not yet coughed up all he knows to USADA, Feds. He throws out some feelers to Lance about getting a position on The Shack. He gets the cold shoulder. He gets a new domestic team together and puts out feelers to Lance and Messick about the team getting entrance to ToC. He gets the big middle finger.

Landis knows how cycling works and knows he's been given the shaft as others have gotten protection but he got tossed out like garbage. Now, he's trying to get back in and he's getting rejected. He's getting pissed and starts to make threats about spilling the beans.

It is suggested to Lance to throw out a few platitudes Floyd's way in the press to make him feel better. Nothing more. Just a few kind words that might bring him down from the ledge. Instead, LA publicly calls him an alcoholic and in need of psychiatric care.

And, after that, Floyd takes his info to the Feds and Tygart.

And, that is what started the whole ball rolling that finally brought LA down. He really shouldn't have called Floyd names. That was probably not a wise strategic move on his part.

Team Gewiss in 1994 was the eye opener.

Team Doctor: Michele Ferrari.

Team Results: Full sweep of all spring classics.

EPO was around earlier than 1994 as a few riders kicked the bucket from sludgey blood in their sleep prior to that, but Ferrari's Gewiss team was the first systematic doping program and Ferrari got the regimen down to a science. I believe it was 1994 that the rest of peloton understood EPO was a game changer and you either got on board or you got left behind.

Team Gewiss in 1994 was the eye opener.

Indeed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewiss-Ballan

Check out those hematocrit levels!!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I think Lance Armstrong was the Walter White of cycling. The drugs were there before, but he sure did raise it to a whole new level.

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Adrian in Vancouver

"I am the danger!"

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"Wow, are you a triathlete?"
If spoken by a non-swimmer, that's a compliment. When spoken by a swimmer.... -glitch
My wife's blog http://www.hostilewit.com

FTW: "I think Lance Armstrong was the Walter White of cycling"

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Another IM in 2016 - hopefully..

Spot on.

http://twitpic.com/aq58ea

great pic of Frankie doing some reading here....

To continue the circumstantial evidence trail, the 1985 7-eleven team consisted of several riders from the 1984 US Olympic team that several members have later admitted to blood doping that Olympics. In my mind it's not to far a stretch the blood doping continued when 7-11 went to Europe. Carmichael was on that 1985 team also.

sdmike wrote:

Spot on.

Ironically, shortly before Sparks ruling I posted effectively the same thing as I predicted that Lance's world was soon to come crashing down and the need to add insult to injury on Floyd was the reason (well, besides all the cheating and lying of course - but he would have gotten away with it if he hadn't piled on Floyd).

I was lambasted and told to change the title of my thread to "ST - ignore the dribble in this post", which I did.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4098837

Rarely watch TV so I had to google that one. Excellent.

Yep. I just used the 90's Motorola team as an example because LA was on it. Doping has been around, without a doubt, much longer. However the Italians were well ahead of the cycling curve with epo and testo in the mid 90's. Some clean guys bailed then. Said no thanks. LA wasn't one of them.

Since you pointed out LA why not name some of the others who did not bail? Quite a long list wouldn't you say? Really you guys are worse than a bunch of old people (not picking on old people but you catch my drift) sitting around spouting one bit of nonsense after another.

Though it should be noted that blood boosting was not banned for the Olympics in 1984.

Wow!!! I am Danish and I really enjoyed watching the TdF at that point and remember that Bjarne Riis came out of nowhere and suddenly he was riding with the big names and eventually went on to win the TdF. I was to young to know about doping back then but looing at those hemotacrit values, no wonder Riis suddenly was so good.

Right. It's often been reported that his nickname in the peloton at the time of his TdF win was "Mr 60%", on account of his haematocrit level.

And one rider won the Tour 5 times almost certainly by in part getting a jump on the better part of the peloton thanks to Conconi.


What's most remarkable about the EPO timeline is how naive the peloton or at least the doping docs were about EPO being a game changer. They seem to have been or at least Ferrari was ready with blood doping immediately when the EPO test became available.

Quote:

All I'm saying is that he did it to make money so as Tyler

Same can be said of Doug Ullman, LA's appearance fees, oncologists, neurosurgeons, janitors, prostitutes...
I know, breaking omerta is different from "normal jobs," but it's ethically inconsitent to judge writing a tell all book for the money and writing a sugar coated biography for the money.

I don't think you get it....Motorola did not go to Europe. The team had already been there for 6 years when Motorola took over sponsorship in '91. And by that time, EPO was becomingthe prevalent drug.

Suggesting that Motorola went to Europe, got their asses handed to them and then started doping is in complete disregards to the facts. They have been there, knew what was going on and either were or were not systemically doping by the time Motorola took over.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

The "facts" as I believe them to be:

Epo really took hold in 1995.
Motorola, with Jim Ochowicz as the manager, and had George, Lance, Frankie Andreau, Kevin Livingstone, riding (I think) got crushed in TA and Milan San Remo in 1995. From 1996 on it was game on and you were either in or out. You couldn't hang with the Euros if you didn't get with the program. There has always been doping of course but team wide use of epo, which requires a measured program (a system) and doesn't work overnight really took hold about 1995-6. At least for Motorola.

EPO took hold long before 1995 in the peloton.

Don't know what "facts" you are referring to, but the above is widely recognized and acknowledged. Remember PDM pulling out of the '91 TdF?

Bad intravenous food, my ass.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I have no play on this nor wil exteriorize what my position is about Lance, I am just curious why portuguese coaches are different than coaches from other countries :)

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"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD

Team Aquaphor 06-08

See also for example here: http://velonews.competitor.com/...its-to-epo-use_93581

Note that Rooks left PDM after 89, so it wasn't just PDM...

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Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

But he admitted it in a book. He's doing it for the money.

"I will answer your question in a minute, but first I would like to know if you regret beating up your children as much as you did?" (Paulo)


You scare me with comments like this. Why would you cloud a discussion with this unfair comment?

I think his point was that the question posed to him contained an assumption. His response was not substantive (unless you know each other), but rather a variation on the "when did you stop beating your wife" question (in a context in which it had not been established that the subject beat his wife).

I appreciate your response, but my initial question was not an assumption.

Paulo does not like Lance and I wanted him to explain why.

Francois - I'm coming clean. I finally agree with you. You have been consistently spot-on regarding the LA doping issue for years. I used to be big LA supporter as recently as his triathlon victories. Funny, I don't hold doping against him as much as I do his bold face lying about it. Since he is the one athlete with the most to lose so he will never come clean. I had lunch with a friend recently who is avid Cat 1 racer. He said there are plenty of dopers in the weekend racing bunch too. The only way to enjoy the sport is to watch it for what it is. A dope show.

On another related note (re, athletes who fall from grace) Tiger Woods could have denied all of his exploits. I give him credit for stepping up and admitting to it all. Lance should have done the same thing. I can respect anyone who admits they f'd up. Impossible to respect LA.

Kudos for admitting. I don't think I've been spot on though. There was a short time I believed. I guess growing up in Europe and hearing
far more than we get here in the US, I had become far more cynical, and my tolerance for circumstantial evidence was much lower. I naively
think that for instance Bolt is clean. But I keep my mind open. The recent revelations about the coach hanging out with the Jamaican team
are a first cringe step. Not sure how many will be needed.

I hope Lance fesses up. I hope he does this very publicly, and starts a foundation (and I'm not being cynical) for a clean cycling in the US,
and elsewhere, one that teaches kids about riding clean, the dangers of doping, etc. And (and I said that before), I really wish at some stage,
he becomes an advocates for safe cycling in the US. All that would definitely help with redemption...

Oh, and more s*** is coming out

Apparently, LA tried to offer Hamilton "legal assistance" before the latter was set to testify before the grand jury

Also, looks like Weisel (founder of Montgomery Security, backer of LA, and former CEO of USAC) contributed $50k to Floyd's Defense Fund

http://www.velonation.com/...y-against-Texan.aspx

I wonder how Tim Hermann and minions feel about themselves when pulling stunts like this, or writing the defamatory pieces against Mike Andersen, or trying to get USADA defunded, or using the weight of Lance to crush anyone who speaks negative thoughts for 10 years running. I know the checks cash, but some associate actually doing the dirty work must question their stock in life at some point, no?

I haven't read the whole thread so my apologies if this has been said...

I don't want to know anything about Tyler Hamilton's "stuff starting to come out". Disgusting.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Sheryl Crow is scheduled to appear on Katie Couric�s new television program next week.

"On Monday, September 10th, the premiere episode of �Katie� will be packed with surprises. ..Also on the premiere episode: nine-time Grammy-winning artist Sheryl Crow, who is 50, and like Katie, a single mom and embarking on an exciting new phase of her own career. Crow, who has written and performed the theme song for �Katie,� entitled �This Day,� will also talk, for the first time, about her recently diagnosed brain tumor."

"There was a short time I believed."

Most who would be honest would probably say they did as well. Unless they had first or second hand knowledge of life in the peloton or LA's camp in the early days, it was too easy to believe in the miracle. It's all we heard about, and frankly, the 1999 tour was a pretty good piece of drama. Sure there was the little corticosteroid issue, but most of us in the tifosi would not have had the sophisticated introduction to doping in sports that would have led us to suspect the proffered answer wasn't true. I would guess the cracks started for some after the Actovegin-in-the-trash episode. It was like, "Wait, what? Well that's strange. And that's two years in a row that we've heard some doping whispers." But without solid evidence and covered by the wall of denial from the Postal camp, the cracks took a long time to set in and start the real crumbling.

I'd love to see LA fess up too. But I suspect he's got pressure from entities bigger than himself to keep the secrets. There is money and power behind his success that has no interest in being exposed. I think as long as LA sees that as a game he can't win, he'll continue to deny. I don't know that the USADA case can cause him enough pain to decide admission is the better route. Certainly those testimonies are as close as we're going to get to smoking guns with respect to what really went on. Certainly none of his competition will have had first-hand knowledge of his exploits such that even if all of them join the coming out chorus it would have zero effect on LA's continued denial.

And I never thought I'd see the day I became more cynical than you regarding doping, Francois. I am fairly convinced Bolt is as dirty as yellow snow. I didn't need the coach issue. 9.58 and 19.19 are exhibits A and B in my case.

Couldnt disagree more with your example of Tiger as someone we should look to and hold up as "coming clean." In my view his public mea culpa came only after an avalanche of damaging investigative press and only to stem the bleeding of sponsorship money, not becuase he was sorry he cheated on his wife, which had nothing to do with golf. In my view, he didnt need to hold a press conference and talk about his sex life. That's personal BS. Now, if we want to discuss Tiger's possible use of PEDs (which is what we're talking about with regard to LA and others) again IMHU, there's plenty of room for speculation. If the same scrutiny and law enforcement effort was ever applied to determining whether Tiger used testosterone or something else, i'd be interested to see what might (or might not) be found. But, there's no reason to test pro golfers for PEDs right? And so there lacks that impetus that exists (and arguably rightly so) in endurance sports to dig deeper when an athlete wins an unprecedented 7 tours.

It's only unprecedented until someone does it. Indurain won 5 tours, ostensibly clean. (One positive test for salbutamol in 1994, although it was allowed for asthma at the time). Where's the digging to prove he doped to do it?

It's unprecedented for someone to win 8 golds in swimming in a single Olympics. Where's the hue and cry for testing Phelps?

Note: I am not being a LA apologist, I'm merely pointing out the inconsistency of your reasoning.

John

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Tiger has been linked to doping doctors re: actovegan for his knee.

I agree his logic fails but so does yours.

Indurian is Spanish. They have lax doping laws there, or did anyways.

Phelps has been tested a TON.

Lance was chased because cycling is corrupt and several generations (when you think a cycling generation is probably 5-7 year career) have been impacted, the dopers are still active in the sport, and there is evidence that he doped.

Dude, youre misreading me a little. I too see a lot of inconsistency with the testing and not testing across different sports. That was my point. Good argumentds can be made in either direction. But, concerning Phelps (and all oly athletes) as far as i know there's a great deal of testing and redundancy, right?

Is Phelps working with a known doping doctor?

Have several of his former team mates or training partners accused him of doping?

The "unprecedented" is only part of the equation. Apologist/disciples seem to be ignoring the forest and focusing solely on each tree, shrub, and rock saying "that's not a forest; it's a bush", "that's not a forest; it's a stream". If the only piece of evidence USADA had was that LA had 7 yellow jerseys, we wouldn't be where we are.

Then people say Frankie, Landis & Hamilton etc are discredited because they lied. Are they liars about things yes. Does that make them a liar about everything? No.

Why can't people see the forest through the trees?


Hero worship and the power of celebrity.

How do propose verifying what she said since that hasn't been publicized yet? Can't wait for your answer to this one.
You are dancing around the point I made. IMHO that just confirms that you have an agenda


That is the funniest line on this thread.

If you do some searching and reading, you'll quickly discover that the bolded part is very unlikely.

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With Padilla as a doctor, the likelihood that he was clean is close to 0.

Not to mention at least one rider from that era on Banesto has talked about the team's systematic doping and the information out there about Conconi making Indurain his "special project". By all accounts Indurain is a class act and good guy, but lets not kid ourselves. He almost certainly doped and there's every chance his 5 TdF wins were at least in part due to getting a jump on a significant portion of the peloton in the use of EPO.

At least one former Banesto rider is also dead as well, though his death was not directly attibuted to PEDs, the mindset no doubt contributed, similar to Pantani's troubles.