Just allow drafting already, it's time..In this one respect, Les McDonald was way ahead of his time....

That is the only solution and i don't know why it is called "cheating"?? It can be breaking the rules but definetely not cheating.

I understand your argument, but I'm not interested in a "make it easier" race. Even though I got pummeled, I like the mass start, the racing head to head. Why must our society make it easier instead of holding people accountable?

when I throw a GU wrapper in the park on my long runs i get warned by fellow runners and I pick it up.

I don't remember Florida being this bad in 2001 and 2002 when I did it, but I can't argue with the current situation. I wont make the mistake of signing up for it again.[/quote] Same here tjs. I did IMF in 2000/2001 and drafting wasn't a problem. Did it last year and drafting on the bike was rampant. Won't be going back again.

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18x Ironman, 3x Hawaii
US Army (Ret.), Vietnam Vet ('71-'72)

A TT start does make the race easier from the standpoint of that lack of jostling for position, and the large draft you mention very seldom actually happens as those early fast starters burn out, and one is forced to find clean water. There is much more contact, and even though I don't like getting smashed like I did saturday, it is part of the sorting out proess that separates the sport from a swim meet.
As and stated on one of the other threads, how was a TT swim start going to affect the drafting that was goin on after 70 miles, where it was the worst? The IMKY TT start logic is flawed in that the cyclists were drafting the worst after 70 miles.

The point of the post is the drafting. The drafting occurred throughout the race, but especially after 70 miles. How does a TT swim start even remotely affect this? That logic defies me. How many TT swim starts I've done is not at issue. Swim times are not the issue. The issue is moral character and punishment for cheating.

Sorry. You are wrong. From within the race, I saw many willingly make the decision to break the rules, pure and simple. They didn't say, "oh I wish it was a TT swim start so I couldn't do this". They cheated, pure and simple. Front of the race, middle, back. I saw large packs like the video shown, and many guys in 3's and 4's, sucking wheel after 70. Cheaters, no matter how you want to interpret it.

I don't consider this cheating.

Now sometimes these actions are seen by the referees and get called and the appropriate team gets penalized, other times the ref misses the call, and things happen. I don't consider this cheating.

Depends on where you are on the course at what time.. Drafting has always been a problem at imf I've done every one except last year.
now 2001 I was bit slower than 2000 but both 2000 and 2001 where I was on highway 20 there were packs(5:18 and 5:36 bike) but I'm a slow swimmer as well.
2002 I caught up with a bunch of packs(5:12 bike) I was yelling at them jacked my heart rate up tried to run from them no luck.
Then I just gave up slowed down while they went on and I got my heart rate back down and here came the motorcylce.. I watched them go up and bam pulled two over.
then a little later here they came again pulled one over this went on for a few miles finally broke them up..(I was about 50 to 100 meters back watching the whole thing loved it...I was cheering yelling at the guys pulled over "BUSTED" and thanked the marshal..
Saturday I was bit further back than usual and I didn't see the draft marshal maybe twice back there and even in the slower bikers along 388 there were bunch of guys drafting off of faster girls into the head wind.

BUT that was in the charlie crawford days... Now they do this wimpie no time penalty except for drafting and they don't stand them down.
I'd be willing to be some of these guys got dinged for drafting but kept on until they got to a penalty tent then picked up another group maybe some got dq'd does anybody have the numbers...

But used to they had to pull over and stand down which forced you to get out.

Also conditions were more adapt at causing drafting this year with the smooth swim and the tail winds or little wind everyone was fast even with out drafting..

Bet they had more starters as well than back in 2000 and 2001...

Sorry. You are wrong. From within the race, I saw many willingly make the decision to break the rules, pure and simple. They didn't say, "oh I wish it was a TT swim start so I couldn't do this". They cheated, pure and simple. Front of the race, middle, back. I saw large packs like the video shown, and many guys in 3's and 4's, sucking wheel after 70. Cheaters, no matter how you want to interpret it.

This thread got me doing some lookin'...

I've done IMF from 99' thru 03'... my fastest bike split there was in 03' and it was the 46th fastest overall... that same time would have only put me 102 this year... things that make you go hmmmmmm......

For comparrison, it would have been 22nd fastest in 04', 27th in 05' and 23rd in 06'.

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http://wardmoya.blogspot.com/

I wasn't there and didn't do the race nor do I draft. So by calling me a cheater you have libeled me. Maybe you want to address your own moral compass and not commit such blatant acts of defamation, which are a lot more actionable than drafting.

There is a rule against drafting the penalty is a time penalty and if you get caught more than a certain amount of times you DNF. It is like all sports. I don't think there is an actual intent of most participants to draft or form pelotons, it is just the unfortunate consequence and natural dynamics of this course in particular.

As for everyone on their high horses, give me a call the next time you turn yourself into the cops for speeding.

You responded to my post, and a reasonable jury I would predict would interpret your statement as calling me a cheater, not to mention your follow up statement as buttressing my belief that you libeled me.

[reply]Absolutely! Permitting drafting will make the swim really mean something. No more just gliding along in your wetsuit if you wanna go with the pack. I'm with you a 100% on this one!

Oh yeah, just think how much disk space Slowman will save from the lack of drafting rants ;)[/reply]

But he'll die from the lack of advertising that will happen when the aero stuff is no longer significant. Probably the largest reason that they won't legalize drafting.....dollars!

What changes would have to be made to the sport, IM in particular, to allow for safe draft-legal triathlon. \\


Wave starts, half the people, more marshalls, and strick enforcement. But as I see it, all of these factors have been, and are going, the exact other direction. So it will only get worse, thus my opinion of just let it go. I don't believe it will happen, but I will also not indulge those that are going to complain about the drafting. In my mind, WTC events are drasft legal, just like ITU worlds are. IF you don't take advantage of it, then don't complain about it. If only a very small % are caught and serve penalties that don't even make up for the advantage gained, then what is the point, other than your own self serving need to ride fair in an ocean of drafting?

4) I guess the safety factor will always prevent making Ironman's draft legal.
5) Perhaps it is only the insurance companies that can control how well the rules are enforced.

---Scott

Weaker swimmers should never be on the podium anyway. That's how it used to be anyway......

The drafting going on now is about as tight as it gets. IF you let everyone draft, the packs will get smaller, not bigger. Groups would form immediatly, and the fast groups would ride in front of the slower ones, unlike the scenario now. Small groups form, and suck up single riders all through the race, until they are 100+. IF those early riders group up right away, they most likely will not get caught by trailing packs.

Just allow drafting already, it's time..In this one respect, Les McDonald was way ahead of his time....

I wonder if a race would be able to get insurance at a reasonable cost. Let's be honest, if there was drafting and if one rider goes down, a whole bunch goes down. Just look at the tours where you have 180 pro's who basically live on their bikes and their pile ups get nasty. Would there be some sort of negligence issue for a race knowing that they have a large percentage of wankers out there w/o the proper bike skills? If it would be negligence, it doesn't matter what kind of waiver you sign, you can't sign off negligence on a waiver which would open the race up to lawsuit. I don't know if this would be the case, but it would have to be a consideration to address.

It is called triathlon, and winners are usually pretty good at all 3 sports. Take a look at ITU, they are probably the most balanced athletes in our sport.

Mark,

I agree. It will sound blasphemous with this crowd, but the ITU athletes are the true triathletes in my eyes. Why? they have mastered outstanding fitness, skill and tactics in all three sports. The more common form of triathlon that most everyone else practices has as the bike leg this hybrid form of ITT'ing unique to triathlon that when you think about it, is very one demensional. In ITU triathlon the cycling fitness needs to be there but that is rounded out with the fitness and skills needed for road racing as well, making for a better all-around and true triathlete in my mind.