I'm not saying by any means that they aren't cheaters. I'm just saying that a time-trial start makes it a bit more work to cheat. You can never eliminate cheating in sport, but you can attempt to make it more difficult.

I wasn't there and didn't do the race nor do I draft. So by calling me a cheater you have libeled me. Maybe you want to address your own moral compass and not commit such blatant acts of defamation, which are a lot more actionable than drafting.

There is a rule against drafting the penalty is a time penalty and if you get caught more than a certain amount of times you DNF. It is like all sports. I don't think there is an actual intent of most participants to draft or form pelotons, it is just the unfortunate consequence and natural dynamics of this course in particular.

As for everyone on their high horses, give me a call the next time you turn yourself into the cops for speeding.

[reply]


Just allow drafting already, it's time..In this one respect, Les McDonald was way ahead of his time....[/reply]

Really you (we?) have two choices:

(1) Allow drafting, which will completely change the sport, will require bike skills far beyond 90% of the current competitors, and which would certainly be more fair than just having some people draft.

(2) Enforce anti-drafting rules. I don't think this is anywhere near as hard as people make it out to be. I don't think draft marshals on bikes are the whole solution - video with timing mats to ID individuals placed at key locations. Some advertised, some not.

I don't think a time-trial start or waves will really reduce drafting all that much. I've never seen a pack in 15 years of racing that was accidental other than some bunching up on long climbs.

Lets just say NAS/WTC suck!!! they treat this as buisness to make money, not for the love of the sport, you can achieve both if you know what you are doing. they are unprofessional to say the least. If JR was a professional at his job, this should not happen. He should have be fired a long to time ago for not doing his job. His job is to enforce the drafting rules, which is clearly not happening. If JR was working anyother job and with poor performance he would be fired. it's all pretty simple and clear. As far as NAS/WTC for not replacing JR, they are just as guilty.

Except, of course, that in football, for example, there are 7 referees for every 22 players. Let’s call that a 1 to 3 ratio. In basketball, you have three for 10 players, or two for 10 players depending on the level. Do you think there might be less cheating and more clean riding if there were 600 motorcycles on the course for 2000 riders? That would mean five refs per mile, roughly one guy patrolling a stretch 300 meters long. If that was the case and a high percentage of violations were reported then your comparison might hold water, but as it is, it is like comparing apples to oranges.
People should just know better when they sign up for Ironman events with 2000 people—drafting is just a fact of life. If you don’t like it, don’t sign up again and validate their business model.

Chad

I understand there are more referees in basketball and football, I am just saying that there are tons of holding calls, blocking calls, etc. that aren't called in these sports, most savvy fans aren't beating the drum of calling teams cheaters, that is just the facts of the game.

Should IM enforce the rules and dole out penalties, maybe. It is just annoying to me that people complain so much. After all, this is a hobby for all but a few people. I just don't care what other do during the race.

It just seems to me that those who complain the most are the ones who just aren't out training enough and are looking for an excuse as to why their times suck. They must feel better inside if they can blame all the drafting "cheaters" for their relatively poor performance rather than their own training habits.

(1) Allow drafting, which will completely change the sport, will require bike skills far beyond 90% of the current competitors, and which would certainly be more fair than just having some people draft. \\


As it stands now, I would guess 80+% of the people in Fla drafted, and there was not the wholesale crashing and burning that a lot of people like to predict will happen if drafting is allowed. It is already allowed and we now know what the accident statistics will be, not much different from a non drafting event. And I would guess that most the non drafters in the race, were the better bike handlers, although I have no proof of that. Just guessing that the real bikers will have more of a conscience when it comes to drafting. That has been my observation...

SO we change the sport a little, it has already changed is pratice anyway, and 25 years of complaining and non compliance, and draft busters have not worked. In fact it just gets worse as each new generation of newbies only know drafting races, and it is normal for them. As I said, Les knew long ago that this would be the killer of his olympic sport, and he quickly got rid of the issue, and not one complaint comes from his series. Winners still have to be triathletes, and if anything, it made the swim more important, which the sport needed, also in my opinion.....

Are you competing for a Kona slot? If yes, and you're right on the cusp like many of us, then you might have greater interest in a clean race.

You are assuming that those who are competing for Kona spots and those who are drafting are the same group of people. I surmise that isn't the case.

I thought you told everyone to STFU if they weren't there, yet, you are not.

If you speed, you are a lawbreaker. If you rob, you are a criminal. If you draft, you are a cheater...doesn't matter if you get caught or not.. Libel please, I said "It amazes me the justifications cheaters have..." Did I name you as a cheater? No. It was a general statement. Abit defensive are we?

Monty, although i raced and am a big complainer, it was still a very long way from 80% drafting. In fact, I would say it didn't even approach 30%. Just that those that do are right in front of us and we see it so much better. It would be complete carnage to even think about doing this draft legal. Most can't hold a line getting a bottle at aid station, let alone holding a wheel. That's the day I leave the sport.

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You responded to my post, and a reasonable jury I would predict would interpret your statement as calling me a cheater, not to mention your follow up statement as buttressing my belief that you libeled me. Hey, maybe it was unintentional, maybe not, perhaps like many of those who were allegedly drafting.

I agree that the complaining is pretty annoying because they know going in that the conditions and mentality will lead to drafting.
In the case of football violations vs. drafting, football fans are watching while in tris the participants are the ones concerned to see the rules enforced. I would also submit that most fouls in football are either inadvertent, or committed with the full knowledge they will be punished. The 3 to 1 ref to player ratio works pretty well. That is not the case with many who draft; they know they are drafting and they don’t think they will be caught based off the odds.
Chad

Although you didn't respond to me, I didn't see that in the post, and I actually thought that your post indicated that you were condoning drafting. To walk away and ignore it is not the way to deal with it. We need to police our own sport, or it will be taken away by those that do let their voice and opinion heard. Too many people in life "don't want to get involved" and walk away, allowing the issue to grow.

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Gary Geiger
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Dude, wake up and get a grip. I can assure you that many are the same guys trying to get a Kona slot. Who do you think the other 25 guys were on Joe's ass in the video? The back of the race? Of course it's not everyone competing for a slot - Joe being the obvious example - but I'd surmise it's a meaningful percentage.

Les knew long ago that this would be the killer of his olympic sport, and he quickly got rid of the issue, and not one complaint comes from his series. Winners still have to be triathletes, and if anything, it made the swim more important, which the sport needed, also in my opinion.....

Mark,

Here here!

I know this will get many upset, but it's the absolute truth and facts. This same sort of endless arguing, bickering and back-stabbing that's going on post IMFL was going on hours after ITU World Cup races back in the early 90's and they often still didn't even know at that point who actually won the darned race as everyone was appealing and arguing!! The papers and the media had no results and the TV show would have to go off air with no winner declared!! Then in one fell swoop, the ITU said enough. This is triathlon. It's about three sports - swimming, cycling and running, so that's how it will be. Swim, bike and run however you want and the first across the line wins. It's easy to understand and everyone gets it. Sure the bike may have been lessened in it's absolute importance, but talk to any competitor on the ITU circut now, how critical the swim has become. Loose just 5 seconds on the swim in an ITU race and your day may be done right then and there! Triathlon is not all about the bike( although if you hang out here on ST enough you might think otherwise) it should be equal parts swimming, cycling and running with an obvious nod to running for no other reason then it's last!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Absolutely! Permitting drafting will make the swim really mean something. No more just gliding along in your wetsuit if you wanna go with the pack. I'm with you a 100% on this one!

Oh yeah, just think how much disk space Slowman will save from the lack of drafting rants ;)

[reply]Absolutely! Permitting drafting will make the swim really mean something. No more just gliding along in your wetsuit if you wanna go with the pack. I'm with you a 100% on this one!

Oh yeah, just think how much disk space Slowman will save from the lack of drafting rants ;)[/reply]

But he'll die from the lack of advertising that will happen when the aero stuff is no longer significant. Probably the largest reason that they won't legalize drafting.....dollars!

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Gary Geiger
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"...a reasonable jury"? "you libeled me"?

Jesus Christ, guy ~ get a life! (Is THAT "actionable?")

Agree with 100%. I still haven't bought a tribike so hopefully they will make the rule change soon and they won't ever get my money!

Just consider the fallout......aerobar companies, John Cobb, wind tunnels, aero helmets. Anyone in their right mind think the powers that be will ever let that happen? The point zero is a small player, and they had enough clout to win a very small battle. Economics is the loudest talker in our society.

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Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

Very good points about the ratio of officials to competitors and the economic impact of making IM draft legal.

Monty,

What changes would have to be made to the sport, IM in particular, to allow for safe draft-legal triathlon. If you make drafting legal, certainly the packs will be larger and tighter. I think there would be more crashes. Would companies insure these events or would triathlon have to become like cycling with the various categories of racers based on experience and results. If so, IM triathlon would no longer be the mass-start sport that many of the pro-drafting advocates so dearly want to maintain.

Does anyone think that IMF might have been the race that made NAS/WTC seriously think about this issue or do we have to wait for the "big one," to coin a NASCAR phrase, before any action is taken?

What changes would have to be made to the sport, IM in particular, to allow for safe draft-legal triathlon. \\


Wave starts, half the people, more marshalls, and strick enforcement. But as I see it, all of these factors have been, and are going, the exact other direction. So it will only get worse, thus my opinion of just let it go. I don't believe it will happen, but I will also not indulge those that are going to complain about the drafting. In my mind, WTC events are drasft legal, just like ITU worlds are. IF you don't take advantage of it, then don't complain about it. If only a very small % are caught and serve penalties that don't even make up for the advantage gained, then what is the point, other than your own self serving need to ride fair in an ocean of drafting?

[reply]
As it stands now, I would guess 80+% of the people in Fla drafted, and there was not the wholesale crashing and burning that a lot of people like to predict will happen if drafting is allowed.[/reply]

But there's drafting and there's drafting. If you truly allowed drafting, wheel-to-wheel, people would train for that and the dynamic would be large (200-300 person) pelotons forming. It would be impossible to escape groups that large, so the new strategy would be how hard can you time-trial until you compensated for your swim and sat in with the group.

I would do much better in a race like that, and I would certainly try a race like that as at least it would be more of a level playing field.

But... then we would have to have cat levels like cycling (not necessarily a bad idea) with a system of liscencing/qualifing so that only people who could handle riding in groups that large would race.

The largest groups I've ridden in were around 60 people. I can only imagine what a group of 200 or 300 would be like, and I'm not sure I want to find out.

I think both drafting and non/drafting formats should be available, but the danger level on the bike would be much higher than it is now, and would have to be addressed if the drafting format were to be successful.

Still, I think much more could be done with different enforcement approaches to curtail drafting.

Bob