No, what changes would have to be to make draft-legal IM triathlon safe? Although there is plenty of drafting now, it's not legal, so the majority aren't drafting aggressively. Imagine the attitude and actions of many AGers if everyone was suddenly free to draft legally. Would it be safe or would accidents be as prevalent, if not more, as in Cat 5 crits? Would USAT be able to get insurance to sanction such events?

Why not use IMFL as an experiment next year? Make it draft legal and study the results. After all, we already have one Ironman that broke tradition and is a time trial start. And, for that matter, designate LP as the most draft unfriendly race where absolutely no drafting will be tolerated. Change things up, get people talking. Status quo is boring.

if they allow drafting, does that do away with the cowhorn bars? Would people need to take a course on drafting as they do in Ontario if you want to race draft legal races? Would the insurance change considering it would certainly be more dangerous having a peleton of aerobar riding cyclists as opposed to regular cycling bars. I think the effects would be far more reaching. But then again, maybe not.

The cowbell completely makes this video. I wonder if mile 75 is the IM version of the bell lap/prime.

Not in reply to anyone in particular. I think IMKY was a good testing/learning ground for a wave/time trial type start. IMO, it went off better than expected. Everyone was in the water in 30mins. It made all three disciplines more of a true time trial than other IMs I've done.

It was first come, first serve in terms of lining up at the start, which meant all levels of ability were mixed together. I couldn't find any feet to draft off of in the water, no one going my speed on the bike, and the run is the run and takes care of itself. I guess that type of start versus a mass start takes away from some of the original IM spirit of the mass start but nonetheless I think if you are concerned about limiting drafting, it seems like a good approach. The downside is you have no idea where you are (what place you're in) relative to the people around you may be "racing" with people who started 10 mins before or after you.

Damn... I am so glad to see that new kid of yours hasn't prevented you from frequently the forum. Although, I will admit, it appears the quality of your posts is lacking just a little these days. I think you actually might need to up the time you spend on Slowtwitch. Hopefully I'll see you around one of these days.

Fleck, now you and monty got me thinking.

At first, when I read this thread, I was astonished! I could not beleive that some people do not think drafting is not cheating. Or, that if you don't get caught that you are not drafting. And I am still stunned. I still get pissed off when I am racing and see the packs. I must admit it is nice racing in the pro wave, even though I am at the back of it. The 10m rule has spaced it way out for the guys. Even the "legal" trains are few and far between compared to a few years ago. However, in the same race, I see the agies lining up behind one another and that is still frustrating especially when a lot of them start throwing down faster bike times than me. Back in 2002 I raced age group in FL and got so pissed off that i nearly blew my race by training to get away from the peloton. I remember two peletons that day, about 20guys in front of me and about 30 behind.

Now when I coach my Kona contenders I simply tell them to grab on to train and stay legal. When you get 10+ guys pulling then you certainly get a great draft even if you maintain the legal distance. I would never advocate cheating though whether it happen's or not.

Some thoughts you guys made me think about:
1) Maybe we need some serious peer pressure to limit drafting....
2) Maybe we need some ganster's to keep things sane ;)
3) It is interesting you are allowed to draft in the swim and run but not on the bike.
4) I guess the safety factor will always prevent making Ironman's draft legal.
5) Perhaps it is only the insurance companies that can control how well the rules are enforced.

---Scott

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Scott McMillan, M.Sc
Twitter@Factor9Coaching | Factor9Coaching.com | Facebook

I think this whole safety thing about bike drafting is overblown. I liken it to the swim. If they can put over 2500 people in a small starting area for a 2.4 mile swim together then surely they can allow those same people to bike together over 112 miles. Same rules apply, if you are uncomfortable in the crowd, then hang back.

No, what changes would have to be to make draft-legal IM triathlon safe? Although there is plenty of drafting now, it's not legal, so the majority aren't drafting aggressively. Imagine the attitude and actions of many AGers if everyone was suddenly free to draft legally. Would it be safe or would accidents be as prevalent, if not more, as in Cat 5 crits?\\




The drafting going on now is about as tight as it gets. IF you let everyone draft, the packs will get smaller, not bigger. Groups would form immediatly, and the fast groups would ride in front of the slower ones, unlike the scenario now. Small groups form, and suck up single riders all through the race, until they are 100+. IF those early riders group up right away, they most likely will not get caught by trailing packs.

There is a race here in San Diego that is draft legal, and they get 1500+ people on a 18 mile course. There has not been wholesale carnage, no deaths, and they seem to get insurance with no problem. I've heard of other similar races around the country too. Throw in the high % of races that have a no draft rule, but it goes on anyway, and you have a ton of drafting races... People keep harping on these issues as if they are fact, and they are not. Is there more risk, probably, but not enough that it will change the climate of the sport. ITU adopted a bike standard for draft legal, and it seems to be working pretty well there, so there is already a template for a safer bike out there.....

Mark,

Obviously there would have to be a rethink and many different levels and a sea-change in the way that people look at the bike leg and peoples attitudes. However, I look at Nordic skiing as a great example. 25 years ago it was all classic techniqe and all TT starts for just about all races - save a few loppets. Then skating came along and changed everything. There was HUGE resistance at all levels to change, but now we have all different kinds of Nordic events - skating, classic, sprints, mass starts, TT starts etc . .

No drafting triathlon worked well in mass start racing when race fields were small and there was a large descrepancy in peoples swim, bike and run abilities - I know, I was there almost at the start. In a 200 - 300 person race in Ontario back in the 80's there was rarely any problems with drafting. It does not work so well in very large race fields where peoples swim bike and run abilities are closely matched - witness the recent IMFL with 2,500 many evenly match people out on the road.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

"I think this whole safety thing about bike drafting is overblown"

Have you ever watched the Tour de France and the best riders in the world. Daily crashes going down straight roads and there are only 170 riders.

I can't imagine the crashes with the poor bike handling skills of many of triathletes. Fatigue, eating, etc would all lead to problems.

I guess tri bikes are OK for group rides after all.... ;)

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Except small bike injuries are a lot more expensive to repair than small swim injuries. Bikes are also a lot more expensive to fix. But you may have a point. I do not understand how insurance companies set their rates. 2500 people in a mass start swim is pretty scary from a risk perspective.

--Scott

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Scott McMillan, M.Sc
Twitter@Factor9Coaching | Factor9Coaching.com | Facebook

That was pretty horrible. I loved how everyone was standing to accelerate to stay on the wheel in front of them.

Just think, with a draft legal Ironman they could "fit" another 1000 people on the course. You wouldn't even need to pedal. :)

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Just allow drafting already, it's time..In this one respect, Les McDonald was way ahead of his time....[/reply]

That is sure going to screw up the tri bike market given the bike rules in ITU draft-legal races. Weaker swimmers will not stand a chance of getting on the podium.

That is sure going to screw up the tri bike market given the bike rules in ITU draft-legal races. Weaker swimmers will not stand a chance of getting on the podium. \\\[/url]

The tri bike market will be fine, in fact the overall market would prosper. Only those races with waaay too many people with no wave starts could allow drafting, and the majority of the mom and pop races could still stick to the non drafting format. Either people would choose one format or the other, or get two bikes. I bet on the two bike theory, knowing triathletes like I do....

Weaker swimmers should never be on the podium anyway. That's how it used to be anyway......

Depends on how weak a swim. A 10 minute advantage gained by a small group of good riders could easily be erased by a larger pack of cat 3-type guys. If you get a really strong group of swimmers that are also really good bikers then you'd have a problem. Drafting on the bike would have a much bigger impact than it does on the swim if only by virtue that the bike time is almost 5x longer.

I agree.

If you get a really strong group of swimmers that are also really good bikers then you'd have a problem.\\


I don't see the problem here. An off the front group of swimmers that can bike is where winners always come from..And if that group can run then they will really have an advantage..It is called triathlon, and winners are usually pretty good at all 3 sports. Take a look at ITU, they are probably the most balanced athletes in our sport. Hard to have any weakness and excell in that format. And when one of those guys and gals venture out of that format into the non drafting, they have very similar sucess, so draft legal has not ruined the sport, or the quality of the top athletes...And if you need examples of this, how about Kemper, Potts, Mcglone, Jones, both Bennetts, Snowsill, Amey, Walton, Lessing, and on and on....I woould say that the majority of ITU athletes that are top 30, have ventured out and done will in non drafting formats..

I agree with you about both and would add Alexander to your list as he not only did it at Clearwater last year but, but should have given all the IM pros a major worry after Kona.

But I was referring to AG and didn't state the thought very well. The challenge would be for the weaker swimmers trying to reach the podium or top 10 in AG. The small percentage of really fast swimmers would have huge advantage - which would be tough beans for those of us that suck in the water.

It is called triathlon, and winners are usually pretty good at all 3 sports. Take a look at ITU, they are probably the most balanced athletes in our sport.

Mark,

I agree. It will sound blasphemous with this crowd, but the ITU athletes are the true triathletes in my eyes. Why? they have mastered outstanding fitness, skill and tactics in all three sports. The more common form of triathlon that most everyone else practices has as the bike leg this hybrid form of ITT'ing unique to triathlon that when you think about it, is very one demensional. In ITU triathlon the cycling fitness needs to be there but that is rounded out with the fitness and skills needed for road racing as well, making for a better all-around and true triathlete in my mind.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

While I agree that the safety issue is a bit overblown for races like Florida or Kona, remember that the vast majority of Ironman races now have multi-loop bike courses. You will not always have open road ahead of you. After the first lap, you will have fop packs lapping bop packs at drastically different speeds on potentially narrow sections of road (many races only have one lane to work with).

No No!! But maybe limit the fields a bit? 2600 in Florida is just way to many people. IM Austria was very fair, and almost without drafting this year. Kona also was very fair from where i saw it. Germany is also a fair race now.

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Espen Wagener
Kongsberg, Norway

http://www.espenwagener.blogspot.com

I wonder if a race would be able to get insurance at a reasonable cost. Let's be honest, if there was drafting and if one rider goes down, a whole bunch goes down. Just look at the tours where you have 180 pro's who basically live on their bikes and their pile ups get nasty. Would there be some sort of negligence issue for a race knowing that they have a large percentage of wankers out there w/o the proper bike skills? If it would be negligence, it doesn't matter what kind of waiver you sign, you can't sign off negligence on a waiver which would open the race up to lawsuit. I don't know if this would be the case, but it would have to be a consideration to address.