Hey guys
This is the first time I'm posting on this forum. I thought this part of Slowtwitch was for new triathletes, athletes looking to refine their technique and equipment, connecting with people who are doing an upcoming or past event or if you're chained to a desk bored out of your mind while the guy next to you stalks his ex-girlfriends on Facebook.

Not speculation.

Here's what happened to my experience in Kona. I was completely fried from trying to win Ironman Chattanooga and 13 days wasn't enough recovery for the hardest one day event in the world. I was however participating in Kona to get the experience and learn the little nuances about the race. From seeing if staying behind Lava Java and being close is better than staying further out and dealing with traffic and parking to "Where's my race decals? Oh we get processed on race morning behind the King Kam" all the way to getting Coke on the bike--never seen that. Just a few odd bits you can only experience during the race.

At my very best, I could've been front pack. Rested and ready, that is. I wasn't rested nor really ready. Experiencing the race was my priority. That way I can create a visual image with the sights, sounds, feel, etc while prepping for next year. Even if I DNFed on Ali'i I wouldn't have a sense of those aide stations in the Energy Lab, etc.

Lionel and Barrie knew I would still be fried on race day from my big effort two weeks prior. Why? Because we're friends and I told them. When I mentioned I was going to bag the swim Barrie asked if Lionel could swim next to me and I said "yeah, sure. It'll be good for you since I'll swim straighter anyways." They both were worried that it could be against the rules and went to check into it. I on the other-hand laughed because we're swimming in a choppy ocean together. Where's the advantage? It's not like I was stopping to pass out gels at a buoy or collaborating to draft on the bike when the officials weren't watching.

I just wanted to swim well enough to stay ahead of the girls, which is why I kept looking back by swimming backstroke, and also wonder who or what's behind me. I'm a seasoned enough swimmer to know that the same guy hasn't moved off my hip without straining to check. So contrary to opinions, or commentators, I was NOT "looking for Lionel" when I was looking back. I knew he was trying to stay with me. I had no "formal arrangement," so if he lost my feet at the conservative pace I was swimming, that was his concern.

If I line up next to a bunch of goons I don't know in a typical race I'm actually ready for, I always ask how their swim is. If they say they aren't great, I ask them to go easy the first few seconds and get on my feet or hip. Whatever is more comfortable. Let's just NOT punch or grab each other. Especially on a crowded ITU pontoon start. That way we can start with less contact and focus on quickly getting out in one piece. On the flip side, if I'm swimming like garbage after a major run block, I'll ask them to do the opposite as long as it makes sense.

If you guys think that is cheating, you'd better petition to get me and 200+ guys DQed for every triathlon I've ever done. These conversations happen all the time, mostly in the last few seconds. We just spoke about it before getting to the start line not AT the line.

I never "Abandoned any ambitions" either. I was exhausted from IM Chattanooga. (Did you see the sprint finish?) How ambitious can I get if I just want to do the honor of finishing Kona while still sore and tired? I was however ambitious enough to hurry up and get out of the way of the women's race especially in the beginning of the bike! Lionel was up the road by the time I got on the bike. I took my time in T1.

My focus on Kona was to get a feel for the course and conditions on race day and getting to that finish line. Just like many of you reading this post, I just wanted to experience and Finish Kona. Next year: game on.

Matt

I am one of those folks that see nothing wrong with what anyone did.

those who feel this behavior is legal are naive or misinformed, or i worded the poll badly.

Flanagan swam a 47-something that year and was first out of the swim. He and Potts were over two minutes faster than the next group out of the water. Do you really think Flanagan sacrificed his swim or slowed down for Potts?

Jordan seems very active on this topic. Anything to do with Chrabot complaining to his agent after a penalty Jordan got him at Arizona?

Seems like some want to keep this topic alive due to old bad blood.

"i am saying that it appears that a lot of people seem to think that the rule is not up to date given the dynamics and participation numbers in the sport, which doesn't really make it an individual event anymore."

i appreciate that. those people you speak of, while making up a sizable number, are probably not representative of a majority. i don't want to sound imperious, but a lot of us built you a sport. you've inherited the sport we built. in some cases, those who came along later morphed the sport into their own version, like the ITU. great. but when you change the sport we built for you (and for ourselves) you have to convince the rest of us that your change is the better way.

i'm all for new iterations of the sport. xterra, otillo, draft-legal AG tri, itu-style, i don't think there's a style of triathlon where i haven't said great! bring it! but when you want to take the kind of iconic triathlon that we first all introduced in the last 70s and early 80s, which is first and foremost an individual sport, and change it into a team sport, you're going to probably have to bring the rest of us to your point of view.

otherwise, if you just decide it's a team sport and race it that way you're going to get your feelings hurt when you and your buddy get DQd, if in fact it turns out you paid your entry only to be your buddy's domestique.

"is why we are at a point many people dont consider the sport anymore an individual sport."

i saw a guy in kona last week about 10 miles out from the end of the bike leg, another guy was RIGHT on his wheel. this guy in front was zigzagging, trying to get this guy off his wheel. the guy just stayed on the other guy's wheel. it was like looking at the end of a 2-up bike race.

these 2 guys each had a very different view of where the sport is right now. you can go to certain countries and ironman racing is for all intents and purposes draft legal.

if we want to make it draft legal, fine. let's just then please change the rules and let everybody know what the behavioral expectations are.

but it's like everything else in society: do nothing and the world, and society, trends toward chaos and disorder. if you don't want chaos then you have to pump energy into the system. this whole discussion is about pumping energy into the system or acquiescing to a different standard of behavior.

maybe there is a changing going on in our sport and i represent the old guard. but this isn't like same-sex marriage, where your marriage doesn't affect my marriage. your decision to pace your wife through the bike course DOES affect my wife's race. you're forcing my wife to either hire her own domestique or divorce me and marry a faster husband. i haven't "evolved" to this more liberal view of racing yet.

So why did the guy zig zagging not just stop?

If one is riding that crazy, they are losing time already. If someone was drafting that badly on me, and they would not stop, yep, I would stop quickly, let them go by making the point, and then quickly get back to riding.
Better than worrying about someone sitting on my butt and distracting me from the race.

So why did the guy zig zagging not just stop?

Oh come on. Up to that point the draftee's race wasn't affected, except for the fact that he was (rightfully) annoyed. If he would have stopped that would have cost him time and his race would have been affected. Is that what you want? The draftee effectively being penalized? Or if he doesn't want that he should just suck it up and tow the drafter to T2? Nice.

Oh come on. Up to that point the draftee's race wasn't affected, except for the fact that he was (rightfully) annoyed. If he would have stopped that would have cost him time and his race would have been affected. Is that what you want? The draftee effectively being penalized? Or if he doesn't want that he should just suck it up and tow the drafter to T2? Nice.

Actually if someone is drafting off you, it reduces the low pressure area behind you and reduces your watts (very marginally but it does) for the same relative air speed. So as annoying as it is to pull a train of drafters, it's actually easier than riding solo!!!

All the more reason that h2o's reasoning is, um, flawed. It's not my job as a competitor to enforce the rules. Just to not break them. And towing people is not a violation of any rule, so I'm not going to stop.

Jordan seems very active on this topic. Anything to do with Chrabot complaining to his agent after a penalty Jordan got him at Arizona?

Seems like some want to keep this topic alive due to old bad blood.

Didn't this bike penalty thing happen in Texas 2014, between Tim Reed and Rapp?

Bruce,

You're talking about swim drafting of relatively compatible swimmers. This scenario was quite a bit different. You've got Matt, who swam 40:50 at IMCHOO (compared to your 42:23) yet followed that up with 61 minutes at Kona. Needless to say if he had been swimming honestly he'd have been in the low 50s at Kona. But he wasn't swimming honestly; he had agreed to pace Lionel at Kona and paced him to a 61. Swimming out of the pro wave, it is probably unlikely that Lionel would have found other feet to draft at that speed, so Matt was certainly planned assistance so that he would not be abandoned out there all alone while the front pack swimmers all benefited from the typical racing draft. Maybe that's cool and good strategy and good planning to seek out a domestique ahead of time. I think most find that it goes against the spirit of individual competition, if not the rules (though it seems pretty clear to be against the rules too).

RowToTri wrote:

The ones who voted that it is not illegal I would bet have not followed this issue closely enough to find the rule about subordinating your race ambitions to assist another racer.

RowToTri wrote:

The ones who voted that it is not illegal I would bet have not followed this issue closely enough to find the rule about subordinating your race ambitions to assist another racer.

The whole individual vs team things often gets dragged up.

I think when addressing whether a sport is individual you might have to look at the alternative, which would be a team sport. In my opinion there is nothing in between. Either everyone wants to win themselves, or there is a willingness for some to lay down their performance on behalf of a greater good. What happens in between in the pursuit of one of those two options does not grey the area, it's the intended outcome that defines.

Regardless of whether swim drafting is legal or not the leading athletes should all be wanting to beat those drafting. If everyone wants to win the sport is clearly individual, if two or more people work together to clearly gain an ultimate advantage for an individual then they are acting as a team.

However, if tactics come into play whereby aiding someone at the start in order that this benefits you later on then this is still clearly an individual pursuit. If you can convince other people to help you win [within the rules] then fair play to you.

Cases in point.

1.
Domestiques clearly form part of a team. They forego their chances, to aid another. They are in a team.

2.
Macca at Kona. He put forward the idea of a way of racing that he felt absolutely benefitted him and would allow him the best chance of winning. By telling people to ride hard it was not a team effort, everyone would have happily seen every other athlete blow up. It was within the rules. He absolutely wanted to win. Everyone else absolutely wanted to win. It was an individual decision in an individual sport. He was acting utterly individually, with his own beneficial outcome in mind.


I agree that there is a difference between time trial races and pack races, but the lack of time trial format and the subsequent race dynamics does not a team sport make. Andy Potts does not work the front of the swim for the ultimate benefit of anyone else. Whether Chrabot did or not would dictate whether this became a team act or was an individual act, which I think is key when establishing whether [rules or no rules] this was in the spirit of the sport.

Dan underlines an 'abandoned ambitions' ruling. I read Matt's initial post which clearly indicated he had abandoned ambitions to win prior to the race ("How ambitious can I get if I just want to do the honor of finishing Kona while still sore and tired?") and also clearly indicated that he would assist Lionel if, at least, it was just to keep him straight in the swim ("yeah, sure. It'll be good for you since I'll swim straighter anyways")

Ambitions abandoned, yep. Athlete assisted? Arguable based on that quote alone. Matt indicated it would benefit but didn't indicate he would be doing anything different to what he intended to do anyway.

All just my opinion obviously. I am not sure there was any particular intention to break rules but, clearly, checking with the ref to see if it was legal to 'swim next to someone' meant that they knew they were doing something a bit cheeky.

the reality in tri is, if you swim and/or cycle alone, you are more likely than not, at an disatvantage against the majority of the atheles you compete against in a sport that is supposed to be individual.