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Chrabot/Sanders Swim
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Hey guys
This is the first time I'm posting on this forum. I thought this part of Slowtwitch was for new triathletes, athletes looking to refine their technique and equipment, connecting with people who are doing an upcoming or past event or if you're chained to a desk bored out of your mind while the guy next to you stalks his ex-girlfriends on Facebook.

Not speculation.

Here's what happened to my experience in Kona. I was completely fried from trying to win Ironman Chattanooga and 13 days wasn't enough recovery for the hardest one day event in the world. I was however participating in Kona to get the experience and learn the little nuances about the race. From seeing if staying behind Lava Java and being close is better than staying further out and dealing with traffic and parking to "Where's my race decals? Oh we get processed on race morning behind the King Kam" all the way to getting Coke on the bike--never seen that. Just a few odd bits you can only experience during the race.

At my very best, I could've been front pack. Rested and ready, that is. I wasn't rested nor really ready. Experiencing the race was my priority. That way I can create a visual image with the sights, sounds, feel, etc while prepping for next year. Even if I DNFed on Ali'i I wouldn't have a sense of those aide stations in the Energy Lab, etc.

Lionel and Barrie knew I would still be fried on race day from my big effort two weeks prior. Why? Because we're friends and I told them. When I mentioned I was going to bag the swim Barrie asked if Lionel could swim next to me and I said "yeah, sure. It'll be good for you since I'll swim straighter anyways." They both were worried that it could be against the rules and went to check into it. I on the other-hand laughed because we're swimming in a choppy ocean together. Where's the advantage? It's not like I was stopping to pass out gels at a buoy or collaborating to draft on the bike when the officials weren't watching.

I just wanted to swim well enough to stay ahead of the girls, which is why I kept looking back by swimming backstroke, and also wonder who or what's behind me. I'm a seasoned enough swimmer to know that the same guy hasn't moved off my hip without straining to check. So contrary to opinions, or commentators, I was NOT "looking for Lionel" when I was looking back. I knew he was trying to stay with me. I had no "formal arrangement," so if he lost my feet at the conservative pace I was swimming, that was his concern.

If I line up next to a bunch of goons I don't know in a typical race I'm actually ready for, I always ask how their swim is. If they say they aren't great, I ask them to go easy the first few seconds and get on my feet or hip. Whatever is more comfortable. Let's just NOT punch or grab each other. Especially on a crowded ITU pontoon start. That way we can start with less contact and focus on quickly getting out in one piece. On the flip side, if I'm swimming like garbage after a major run block, I'll ask them to do the opposite as long as it makes sense.

If you guys think that is cheating, you'd better petition to get me and 200+ guys DQed for every triathlon I've ever done. These conversations happen all the time, mostly in the last few seconds. We just spoke about it before getting to the start line not AT the line.

I never "Abandoned any ambitions" either. I was exhausted from IM Chattanooga. (Did you see the sprint finish?) How ambitious can I get if I just want to do the honor of finishing Kona while still sore and tired? I was however ambitious enough to hurry up and get out of the way of the women's race especially in the beginning of the bike! Lionel was up the road by the time I got on the bike. I took my time in T1.

My focus on Kona was to get a feel for the course and conditions on race day and getting to that finish line. Just like many of you reading this post, I just wanted to experience and Finish Kona. Next year: game on.

Matt
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [mattchrbt] [ In reply to ]
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Matt, I might be wrong, but the mob isn't for you. Nor really for Lionel. I believe it's more for the coach and the idea behind it, especially what Jimmy wrote on here.

Smart strategy to get the visual of Kona and prepare for next year. Good luck.
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [mattchrbt] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for chiming in.

Based on that, I'm changing my mind and saying that what you did was totally fine.

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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [mattchrbt] [ In reply to ]
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Makes perfect sense to me but you don't need to explain yourself IMO. You didn't do anything wrong....

Good Luck next season.
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [mattchrbt] [ In reply to ]
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Matt,

While many on here feel you answer to them, you don't. However, in this "Lord of the Flies" world we've created on ST, there is a hierarchy so I suspect you'll get lots of responses from the "elders". Buckle up.

From this relatively new triathlete and STer, I only have to say F-you for being able to cruise Kona in 10:07. You disgust me. :-)

All the best for training and competing in the future. I'll be a new fan.
Last edited by: DJRed: Oct 14, 15 11:31
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [mattchrbt] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting what really happened.

Just amazing to me how so many knew what you were doing, why you were doing it, etc.
I guess they can all read your mind.

And THANKS for posting an honest set of comments, not the PC junk that is starting to be posted.

I remember seeing you and the other elites at Gold coast in the hotel in 2009. Been following you ever since.

Again, thanks for posting an honest post. And totally agree with your comment about that what happens in the swim is
NOT cheating!! Happens all the time.

Good luck in your 2016 season!

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [mattchrbt] [ In reply to ]
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The power and reach of ST at work once again lol...

Cool for you to step in and give the first-hand account. And good luck next year!
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [mattchrbt] [ In reply to ]
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You did nothing wrong Matt. Thanks for posting though. Congrats on that Chattanooga race. Helluva finish. Enjoyed your interview with TRS as well.
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [mattchrbt] [ In reply to ]
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I, for one, am happy that you could spell the name of the athletes correctly in the tread title.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [mattchrbt] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah this isn't reflecting poorly on you or Lionel. The confusion is between Barrie's team, Jimmy, and the actual rule. Also loved your TRS interview. Go back on and talk about this with Lionel!

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [mattchrbt] [ In reply to ]
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i have a different view than the readers so far.

i suspect you could have completed the swim in that large group 2min back of the front 3, had you wanted (if not with the front 3). had you wanted to swim easier, fine, then the next pack back. instead, you swam at a pace that matched, exactly, lionel's pace (rather than simply swimming a pace that kept you ahead of the pro women).

it seems pretty clear from barrie's statement, and from lionel's statement, that there was an expectation that you would pull or "host" lionel through the swim.

lionel knew then, and really knows now, that what happened was a bad idea. barrie now knows this was a bad idea. you do not think this was a bad idea. i agree with lionel and barrie, even if they came to this understanding later rather than sooner.

not everybody agrees with my view. in fact, almost half our readers feel that your lending support to lionel in the swim, and lionel receiving it, is perfectly fine. if you think that's fine, then, fine. a boatload of people agree with you.

just, when you say:

- "I just wanted to swim well enough to stay ahead of the girls"
- "if he lost my feet at the conservative pace I was swimming, that was his concern"

... i interpret that as you NOT having any kind of arrangement, that you're swimming your pace, you're looking back at the pro women, not at lionel, and - lo! - turns out lionel just swam your pace. this contradicts all the evidence i've read from lionel, barrie and jimmy.

when you say, "If you guys think that is cheating, you'd better petition to get me and 200+ guys DQed for every triathlon I've ever done," you clearly have not read or understood ironman's rules. when you write, "I never 'Abandoned any ambitions' either," are you trying to understand the rules, or trying to obfuscate them? when folks go to kona, they're trying to do as well as they can. well, everyone but you, apparently. and that's fine. me, i would've given my kona slot to somebody who really wants to race that race rather than swim 10 minutes slower than what i'm capable, etc., but you earned the slot, it's yours to do with as you will.

lionel didn't approach the race the way you did. he was gunning for the finish line. your swim looked, felt, smelled, tasted like you were aiding him in the swim. he thought you were aiding him in the swim. barrie thought you were aiding him in the swim. jimmy was asked if it was okay for one person to aid another in the swim. this is against the rules. it is specifically against the rules, and the elite rules were fairly recently rewritten so that it would be more clear to elites that this is against the rules. jim thinks this is against the rules.

i think it's perfectly okay for you to do with lionel did, and say, "i didn't know it was against the rules; my bad; won't happen again." but that's not what your post does.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"when folks go to kona, they're trying to do as well as they can. well, everyone but you, apparently. and that's fine. me, i would've given my kona slot to somebody who really wants to race that race rather than swim 10 minutes slower than what i'm capable, etc.,"

That seems rather harsh. It is very reasonable for Matt to want to finish the race to learn and gather information he can use to race it next year. He wouldn't be the first one with that professional approach.
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with everything you say here, and wish you would expend some of this firepower on Barrie publicly as well as/instead of Matt publicly.


Slowman wrote:
i have a different view than the readers so far.

i suspect you could have completed the swim in that large group 2min back of the front 3, had you wanted (if not with the front 3). had you wanted to swim easier, fine, then the next pack back. instead, you swam at a pace that matched, exactly, lionel's pace (rather than simply swimming a pace that kept you ahead of the pro women).

it seems pretty clear from barrie's statement, and from lionel's statement, that there was an expectation that you would pull or "host" lionel through the swim.

lionel knew then, and really knows now, that what happened was a bad idea. barrie now knows this was a bad idea. you do not think this was a bad idea. i agree with lionel and barrie, even if they came to this understanding later rather than sooner.

not everybody agrees with my view. in fact, almost half our readers feel that your lending support to lionel in the swim, and lionel receiving it, is perfectly fine. if you think that's fine, then, fine. a boatload of people agree with you.

just, when you say:

- "I just wanted to swim well enough to stay ahead of the girls"
- "if he lost my feet at the conservative pace I was swimming, that was his concern"

... i interpret that as you NOT having any kind of arrangement, that you're swimming your pace, you're looking back at the pro women, not at lionel, and - lo! - turns out lionel just swam your pace. this contradicts all the evidence i've read from lionel, barrie and jimmy.

when you say, "If you guys think that is cheating, you'd better petition to get me and 200+ guys DQed for every triathlon I've ever done," you clearly have not read or understood ironman's rules. when you write, "I never 'Abandoned any ambitions' either," are you trying to understand the rules, or trying to obfuscate them? when folks go to kona, they're trying to do as well as they can. well, everyone but you, apparently. and that's fine. me, i would've given my kona slot to somebody who really wants to race that race rather than swim 10 minutes slower than what i'm capable, etc., but you earned the slot, it's yours to do with as you will.

lionel didn't approach the race the way you did. he was gunning for the finish line. your swim looked, felt, smelled, tasted like you were aiding him in the swim. he thought you were aiding him in the swim. barrie thought you were aiding him in the swim. jimmy was asked if it was okay for one person to aid another in the swim. this is against the rules. it is specifically against the rules, and the elite rules were fairly recently rewritten so that it would be more clear to elites that this is against the rules. jim thinks this is against the rules.

i think it's perfectly okay for you to do with lionel did, and say, "i didn't know it was against the rules; my bad; won't happen again." but that's not what your post does.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [mattchrbt] [ In reply to ]
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I have to say I think your response to this is much less classy than Lionel's. Both Lionel and Barrie have stated that it was a pre-arranged plan that you hold back specifically to allow Lionel to stay on your hip to help him swim faster, backed up by a misleading email asking for "permission" to Jimmy. So your contention that Lionel just happened to be there and you had mentioned that if Lionel wanted to and could stay on your feet if he happened to be there seems factually untrue as admitted to by the other players in this.

mattchrbt wrote:
Hey guys
This is the first time I'm posting on this forum. I thought this part of Slowtwitch was for new triathletes, athletes looking to refine their technique and equipment, connecting with people who are doing an upcoming or past event or if you're chained to a desk bored out of your mind while the guy next to you stalks his ex-girlfriends on Facebook.

Not speculation.

Here's what happened to my experience in Kona. I was completely fried from trying to win Ironman Chattanooga and 13 days wasn't enough recovery for the hardest one day event in the world. I was however participating in Kona to get the experience and learn the little nuances about the race. From seeing if staying behind Lava Java and being close is better than staying further out and dealing with traffic and parking to "Where's my race decals? Oh we get processed on race morning behind the King Kam" all the way to getting Coke on the bike--never seen that. Just a few odd bits you can only experience during the race.

At my very best, I could've been front pack. Rested and ready, that is. I wasn't rested nor really ready. Experiencing the race was my priority. That way I can create a visual image with the sights, sounds, feel, etc while prepping for next year. Even if I DNFed on Ali'i I wouldn't have a sense of those aide stations in the Energy Lab, etc.

Lionel and Barrie knew I would still be fried on race day from my big effort two weeks prior. Why? Because we're friends and I told them. When I mentioned I was going to bag the swim Barrie asked if Lionel could swim next to me and I said "yeah, sure. It'll be good for you since I'll swim straighter anyways." They both were worried that it could be against the rules and went to check into it. I on the other-hand laughed because we're swimming in a choppy ocean together. Where's the advantage? It's not like I was stopping to pass out gels at a buoy or collaborating to draft on the bike when the officials weren't watching.

I just wanted to swim well enough to stay ahead of the girls, which is why I kept looking back by swimming backstroke, and also wonder who or what's behind me. I'm a seasoned enough swimmer to know that the same guy hasn't moved off my hip without straining to check. So contrary to opinions, or commentators, I was NOT "looking for Lionel" when I was looking back. I knew he was trying to stay with me. I had no "formal arrangement," so if he lost my feet at the conservative pace I was swimming, that was his concern.

If I line up next to a bunch of goons I don't know in a typical race I'm actually ready for, I always ask how their swim is. If they say they aren't great, I ask them to go easy the first few seconds and get on my feet or hip. Whatever is more comfortable. Let's just NOT punch or grab each other. Especially on a crowded ITU pontoon start. That way we can start with less contact and focus on quickly getting out in one piece. On the flip side, if I'm swimming like garbage after a major run block, I'll ask them to do the opposite as long as it makes sense.

If you guys think that is cheating, you'd better petition to get me and 200+ guys DQed for every triathlon I've ever done. These conversations happen all the time, mostly in the last few seconds. We just spoke about it before getting to the start line not AT the line.

I never "Abandoned any ambitions" either. I was exhausted from IM Chattanooga. (Did you see the sprint finish?) How ambitious can I get if I just want to do the honor of finishing Kona while still sore and tired? I was however ambitious enough to hurry up and get out of the way of the women's race especially in the beginning of the bike! Lionel was up the road by the time I got on the bike. I took my time in T1.

My focus on Kona was to get a feel for the course and conditions on race day and getting to that finish line. Just like many of you reading this post, I just wanted to experience and Finish Kona. Next year: game on.

Matt

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I am one of those folks that see nothing wrong with what anyone did.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
I have to say I think your response to this is much less classy than Lionel's. Both Lionel and Barrie have stated that it was a pre-arranged plan that you hold back specifically to allow Lionel to stay on your hip to help him swim faster, backed up by a misleading email asking for "permission" to Jimmy. So your contention that Lionel just happened to be there and you had mentioned that if Lionel wanted to and could stay on your feet if he happened to be there seems factually untrue as admitted to by the other players in this.

mattchrbt wrote:
Hey guys
This is the first time I'm posting on this forum. I thought this part of Slowtwitch was for new triathletes, athletes looking to refine their technique and equipment, connecting with people who are doing an upcoming or past event or if you're chained to a desk bored out of your mind while the guy next to you stalks his ex-girlfriends on Facebook.

Not speculation.

Here's what happened to my experience in Kona. I was completely fried from trying to win Ironman Chattanooga and 13 days wasn't enough recovery for the hardest one day event in the world. I was however participating in Kona to get the experience and learn the little nuances about the race. From seeing if staying behind Lava Java and being close is better than staying further out and dealing with traffic and parking to "Where's my race decals? Oh we get processed on race morning behind the King Kam" all the way to getting Coke on the bike--never seen that. Just a few odd bits you can only experience during the race.

At my very best, I could've been front pack. Rested and ready, that is. I wasn't rested nor really ready. Experiencing the race was my priority. That way I can create a visual image with the sights, sounds, feel, etc while prepping for next year. Even if I DNFed on Ali'i I wouldn't have a sense of those aide stations in the Energy Lab, etc.

Lionel and Barrie knew I would still be fried on race day from my big effort two weeks prior. Why? Because we're friends and I told them. When I mentioned I was going to bag the swim Barrie asked if Lionel could swim next to me and I said "yeah, sure. It'll be good for you since I'll swim straighter anyways." They both were worried that it could be against the rules and went to check into it. I on the other-hand laughed because we're swimming in a choppy ocean together. Where's the advantage? It's not like I was stopping to pass out gels at a buoy or collaborating to draft on the bike when the officials weren't watching.

I just wanted to swim well enough to stay ahead of the girls, which is why I kept looking back by swimming backstroke, and also wonder who or what's behind me. I'm a seasoned enough swimmer to know that the same guy hasn't moved off my hip without straining to check. So contrary to opinions, or commentators, I was NOT "looking for Lionel" when I was looking back. I knew he was trying to stay with me. I had no "formal arrangement," so if he lost my feet at the conservative pace I was swimming, that was his concern.

If I line up next to a bunch of goons I don't know in a typical race I'm actually ready for, I always ask how their swim is. If they say they aren't great, I ask them to go easy the first few seconds and get on my feet or hip. Whatever is more comfortable. Let's just NOT punch or grab each other. Especially on a crowded ITU pontoon start. That way we can start with less contact and focus on quickly getting out in one piece. On the flip side, if I'm swimming like garbage after a major run block, I'll ask them to do the opposite as long as it makes sense.

If you guys think that is cheating, you'd better petition to get me and 200+ guys DQed for every triathlon I've ever done. These conversations happen all the time, mostly in the last few seconds. We just spoke about it before getting to the start line not AT the line.

I never "Abandoned any ambitions" either. I was exhausted from IM Chattanooga. (Did you see the sprint finish?) How ambitious can I get if I just want to do the honor of finishing Kona while still sore and tired? I was however ambitious enough to hurry up and get out of the way of the women's race especially in the beginning of the bike! Lionel was up the road by the time I got on the bike. I took my time in T1.

My focus on Kona was to get a feel for the course and conditions on race day and getting to that finish line. Just like many of you reading this post, I just wanted to experience and Finish Kona. Next year: game on.

Matt

Why do you care? Why attack Matt? Did what they did impact you?

I think it is great to not see all the PC stuff going on now.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [mattchrbt] [ In reply to ]
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I think I would enjoy playing poker with you...
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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If you take the legal votes, it is 64% it was legal. That is HUGE!

If you read the vocal responses, you would assume no one thought it was legal.

So just shows without ALL the facts, .....
And even then, some things are never 100% clear, like I think this case is.

But why put so much focus on what happened? The focus should be that we have a set of rules between WTC, USAT and ITU that need to be made into one set,
AND add the clarity, or at least try to, so these kind of things do not come up again. If you have to ask about a rule, that means it is not clear
and you will get a opinion answer, which like in this case, so many excuses now. Just get the rules updated!! That is what we should be focusing on!

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [mattchrbt] [ In reply to ]
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mattchrbt wrote:
So contrary to opinions, or commentators, I was NOT "looking for Lionel" when I was looking back. I knew he was trying to stay with me. I had no "formal arrangement," so if he lost my feet at the conservative pace I was swimming, that was his concern.

Bull shit. I'm not saying you didn't also look back to check how close the girls were, but you definitely looked back to check where Lionel was - like he himself said was the plan -. It was pretty obviously on the live stream right at the start of the swim where the commentators also picked it up. The female pros haven't even begun yet.

Anyway, great to see you pro's respond to the post here and give your views like Lionel and others. Their posts just seemed a bit more trustworthy.

Good luck next year though (Y)
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [KnudsenDenmark] [ In reply to ]
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If I were one of the pros.....and I knew people were just gonna call me a liar, no matter what I said.......well.....I just wouldn't EVER post.
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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True that.

Still, with everything the other people involved in this have already said and what the video showed there is absolutely no way this wasn't an arrangement. I think everyone can see that. The discussion is wether it is OK or not allowed. Based on this statement we might as well discuss wether or not there was a partnership at all during the swim before asking if it is legal or not.
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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that's because you are in a class all your own.

h2ofun wrote:
I am one of those folks that see nothing wrong with what anyone did.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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never stand between a beaten man and the ATM

ajthomas wrote:
I think I would enjoy playing poker with you...

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [mattchrbt] [ In reply to ]
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It's usually not the act, but the cover up, that pisses people off. This should be fun.

What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699
Last edited by: Printer: Oct 14, 15 14:54
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Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [ericM40-44] [ In reply to ]
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"I agree with everything you say here, and wish you would expend some of this firepower on Barrie publicly as well as/instead of Matt publicly."

i have no problem confronting barrie on this pubicly but did you read barrie's most recent post? it was straight-up, man-up, bad decision, my decision, i take full responsibility. that solved it, for me, as did lionel's post.

i have no reason to think matt is anything but the same kind of straight-up, man-up kind of person that i believe barrie and lionel to be. it's just that both barrie and lionel, maybe upon reflection, had a chance to contemplate a decision that in retrospect was ill-conceived. welcome to the club! do you want me to list all of my ill-conceived decisions, many of which played out in public? how much time have you got?

i did this race when matt chrabot was minus-2 years old. i've invested a lot in this race as so many people have. this specific issue has been a recurrent one. it would be nice to just put this to bed once and for all (i thought we did). if you look at the opinion piece i wrote on this today on the home page, a "related article" link at the bottom of that article is another one from 2011, almost exactly the same. this has been a recurring problem in kona since the 1980s, just not a very public one.

maybe this is a good opportunity to just have it out about this issue (lionel seems to think he was getting paced, whether or not matt thinks he was an active pacer). it's clear that there is a lot of disagreement about the legality of this, but it's not a matter of opinion. those who feel this behavior is legal are naive or misinformed, or i worded the poll badly. pacing is not legal. it is against both pro and AG rules, but it is doubly against the pro rules because they're bound by both the pro and the USAT rules, i.e., the rules are cumulative, not either/or, unless ironman specifically asked for and was granted an abatement from the USAT rules.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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