Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [tripadigin] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 12:05

Post #101 of 168 (5025 views)

"couldn't Chrabot just say that he was helping Sanders in the swim because he would know that Sanders would help him on the bike?"

except matt by his own admission lollygagged around in T1 and sanders was long gone by the time matt was on the bike course. wouldn't it have made more sense for matt to just swim his speed and wait for lionel to catch up?

look, you can keep throwing this kind of stuff up. what if a guy's body was inhabited by an extraterrestrial, and that ET could actually sense through his feet, and the feet wanted to get a good look at a particular guy's head, so the ET swam just in front of another guy, at a pace 15 minutes slower than he ever swam an ironman before, collecting data on that guy's head? then the ET beamed back up after the swim because he got all the data he needed. it could happen!

at some point things have to pass the test of reasonableness. i would have no problem making this call and after i made it one time this stuff would instantly stop.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 12:08

Post #102 of 168 (5011 views)

Slowman wrote:

"i am saying that it appears that a lot of people seem to think that the rule is not up to date given the dynamics and participation numbers in the sport, which doesn't really make it an individual event anymore."

i appreciate that. those people you speak of, while making up a sizable number, are probably not representative of a majority. i don't want to sound imperious, but a lot of us built you a sport. you've inherited the sport we built. in some cases, those who came along later morphed the sport into their own version, like the ITU. great. but when you change the sport we built for you (and for ourselves) you have to convince the rest of us that your change is the better way.

i'm all for new iterations of the sport. xterra, otillo, draft-legal AG tri, itu-style, i don't think there's a style of triathlon where i haven't said great! bring it! but when you want to take the kind of iconic triathlon that we first all introduced in the last 70s and early 80s, which is first and foremost an individual sport, and change it into a team sport, you're going to probably have to bring the rest of us to your point of view.

otherwise, if you just decide it's a team sport and race it that way you're going to get your feelings hurt when you and your buddy get DQd, if in fact it turns out you paid your entry only to be your buddy's domestique.

I think the rules are not up to the original spirit of the sport which I'd be more than happy to preserve as much as possible. I think the rules have been modified here, something added there in order to fix some perceived issue. As a result, instead of a lean set of principle based rules we have a patchwork of microrules.

Look for instance at USAT rule
5.3 Knowledge of Course. The sole responsibility of knowing and following the prescribed cycling course rests with each participant. No adjustments in times or results shall be made for participants who fail to follow the proper course for any reason whatsoever.

Why is this rule needed in the first place? Do Track and Field rules say it's the runner's responsibility to know how many laps to run? Do chess rules say it's each player's responsibility to know how each piece can move? Do rowing competition rules say that your boat cannot have an engine? Can we in Triathlon not just rely on some common sense? And then the second sentence of 5.3: seriously?!? So The results of Julie Miller's races shall stay as they are?

See how you had to go from IM rules to USAT rules and from there to a USAT education page to argue your point on the swim drafting.

Let's preserve the spirit of the sport, but the current rules does it a disservice.

Achim Traut

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [tripadigin] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 12:10

Post #103 of 168 (5006 views)

I feel that as long as drafting in swimming is legal, policing pacers would be impossible.//

Read my post just above yours, we have caught tons of pacers over the last 20 years of racing, and that was not even looking that hard..

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 12:17

Post #104 of 168 (4981 views)

i saw your FB post. slowman don't FB, so i'm answering here.

i have no problem issuing a warning during the race. but if don't catch you until after the race (same way we catch course cutters) you get your variable time penalty or DQ after the race. if i give you a warning, it's a sticky warning: it serves as your warning both for this and future races when i catch you in proximity to the same person.

i can think of 4 cases in IM racing where female pro magically has same guy around her every race. in 2 cases, either husband or BF. in all cases, in my opinion, men who would not have been there had the woman not been there, i.e., the evidence suggests the man was looking or waiting for the woman.

in all these cases, warnings were given. then more warnings. more warnings. how many warnings should be given first? how is this fair to the other pro women?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 12:47

Post #105 of 168 (4931 views)

Slowman wrote:

"couldn't Chrabot just say that he was helping Sanders in the swim because he would know that Sanders would help him on the bike?"

except matt by his own admission lollygagged around in T1 and sanders was long gone by the time matt was on the bike course. wouldn't it have made more sense for matt to just swim his speed and wait for lionel to catch up?

look, you can keep throwing this kind of stuff up. what if a guy's body was inhabited by an extraterrestrial, and that ET could actually sense through his feet, and the feet wanted to get a good look at a particular guy's head, so the ET swam just in front of another guy, at a pace 15 minutes slower than he ever swam an ironman before, collecting data on that guy's head? then the ET beamed back up after the swim because he got all the data he needed. it could happen!

at some point things have to pass the test of reasonableness. i would have no problem making this call and after i made it one time this stuff would instantly stop.

I wish I had a GoPro so I could video how awesome this response is! Funny stuff.

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 12:48

Post #106 of 168 (4926 views)

but when you want to take the kind of iconic triathlon that we first all introduced in the last 70s and early 80s, which is first and foremost an individual sport, and change it into a team sport, you're going to probably have to bring the rest of us to your point of view.

I would argue becasue we have never really given penalties when guys paced females for a long time had no seperate female and male starts, let drafting get out of hand (i think the sport has done quite well in the pro area in the last few years but in age group ironman racing it has become a huge proplem)
is why we are at a point many people dont consider the sport anymore an indivdual sport.

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [pk] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 12:56

Post #107 of 168 (4898 views)

"is why we are at a point many people dont consider the sport anymore an individual sport."

i saw a guy in kona last week about 10 miles out from the end of the bike leg, another guy was RIGHT on his wheel. this guy in front was zigzagging, trying to get this guy off his wheel. the guy just stayed on the other guy's wheel. it was like looking at the end of a 2-up bike race.

these 2 guys each had a very different view of where the sport is right now. you can go to certain countries and ironman racing is for all intents and purposes draft legal.

if we want to make it draft legal, fine. let's just then please change the rules and let everybody know what the behavioral expectations are.

but it's like everything else in society: do nothing and the world, and society, trends toward chaos and disorder. if you don't want chaos then you have to pump energy into the system. this whole discussion is about pumping energy into the system or acquiescing to a different standard of behavior.

maybe there is a changing going on in our sport and i represent the old guard. but this isn't like same-sex marriage, where your marriage doesn't affect my marriage. your decision to pace your wife through the bike course DOES affect my wife's race. you're forcing my wife to either hire her own domestique or divorce me and marry a faster husband. i haven't "evolved" to this more liberal view of racing yet.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Last edited by: Slowman: Oct 15, 15 13:02

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [mattchrbt] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 13:26

Post #108 of 168 (4835 views)

You guys should get the story straight before reporting your side of the 'facts'. It may not be illegal, but the difference in stories between you and Lionel smell.

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 13:30

Post #109 of 168 (4824 views)

Slowman wrote:

whenever you have a reconciliation commission you're going to have people saying, "yeah, but, what this guy did, we can't overlook that." this defeats the purpose of the reconciliation commission.

we're like 90-10 or 95-5 as a sport on doping, drafting (in no-draft races), stuff like that. all the other stuff. we're 60-40 on this, not only on the rules but whether it should even be a rule. so i'm willing give mulligans to everybody on this. i'm not trying to tell you how you should think or feel. what's important is that we move forward from here with a common view of what the rule and expectation is on something that's been going on for decades and that has especially mucked up the women's pro race for decades.

if we can just agree that this behavior is against the rules; if we can educate at least all the pros if not all the top AGers; and if we can get officials to stop being timid and to call it (now that everybody knows the score) i'm happy giving everyone a pass up to present.

I just do not see it being against the rules in the swim. Drafting is legal in the swim. How one does it does not matter. Now, if you make drafting in the swim illegal, well then we can keep taking
what the rules should be.

And as I said to you, because drafting is legal in the swim, our sport has NEVER been an individual event. So if you think I am wrong, give me data as to how I am wrong.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [heartpatient] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 13:34

Post #110 of 168 (4815 views)

heartpatient wrote:

Slowman wrote:

"i am saying that it appears that a lot of people seem to think that the rule is not up to date given the dynamics and participation numbers in the sport, which doesn't really make it an individual event anymore."

i appreciate that. those people you speak of, while making up a sizable number, are probably not representative of a majority. i don't want to sound imperious, but a lot of us built you a sport. you've inherited the sport we built. in some cases, those who came along later morphed the sport into their own version, like the ITU. great. but when you change the sport we built for you (and for ourselves) you have to convince the rest of us that your change is the better way.

i'm all for new iterations of the sport. xterra, otillo, draft-legal AG tri, itu-style, i don't think there's a style of triathlon where i haven't said great! bring it! but when you want to take the kind of iconic triathlon that we first all introduced in the last 70s and early 80s, which is first and foremost an individual sport, and change it into a team sport, you're going to probably have to bring the rest of us to your point of view.

otherwise, if you just decide it's a team sport and race it that way you're going to get your feelings hurt when you and your buddy get DQd, if in fact it turns out you paid your entry only to be your buddy's domestique.

I think the rules are not up to the original spirit of the sport which I'd be more than happy to preserve as much as possible. I think the rules have been modified here, something added there in order to fix some perceived issue. As a result, instead of a lean set of principle based rules we have a patchwork of microrules.

Look for instance at USAT rule
5.3 Knowledge of Course. The sole responsibility of knowing and following the prescribed cycling course rests with each participant. No adjustments in times or results shall be made for participants who fail to follow the proper course for any reason whatsoever.

Why is this rule needed in the first place? Do Track and Field rules say it's the runner's responsibility to know how many laps to run? Do chess rules say it's each player's responsibility to know how each piece can move? Do rowing competition rules say that your boat cannot have an engine? Can we in Triathlon not just rely on some common sense? And then the second sentence of 5.3: seriously?!? So The results of Julie Miller's races shall stay as they are?

See how you had to go from IM rules to USAT rules and from there to a USAT education page to argue your point on the swim drafting.

Let's preserve the spirit of the sport, but the current rules does it a disservice.

What "original spirit of the sport"? Drafting in the swim from day 1 of our sport has been legal, which means our sport has never been 100% individual.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 13:35

Post #111 of 168 (4811 views)

"I just do not see it being against the rules in the swim."

right. i know you feel this way. doesn't change the facts.

"Drafting is legal in the swim."

it's legal in the run too. but pacing is not. when someone abandons or subordinates his own effort to finish as high as possible, rather focusing his efforts on helping someone else finish high, that's what's not legal.

i just don't know how else to explain this, dave. i think most people here get this. they might not agree with the rule. they might think it's difficult to enforce it. nevertheless, they understand the concept here. i don't know how else to explain this concept to you, except that you're a contrary, which means you're a smart guy, you get it, i know you get it, but you're a contrary.

so, do you just not understand what i'm writing, and have been writing? or you do and you're a contrary?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 13:37

Post #112 of 168 (4798 views)

Slowman wrote:

"is why we are at a point many people dont consider the sport anymore an individual sport."

i saw a guy in kona last week about 10 miles out from the end of the bike leg, another guy was RIGHT on his wheel. this guy in front was zigzagging, trying to get this guy off his wheel. the guy just stayed on the other guy's wheel. it was like looking at the end of a 2-up bike race.

these 2 guys each had a very different view of where the sport is right now. you can go to certain countries and ironman racing is for all intents and purposes draft legal.

if we want to make it draft legal, fine. let's just then please change the rules and let everybody know what the behavioral expectations are.

but it's like everything else in society: do nothing and the world, and society, trends toward chaos and disorder. if you don't want chaos then you have to pump energy into the system. this whole discussion is about pumping energy into the system or acquiescing to a different standard of behavior.

maybe there is a changing going on in our sport and i represent the old guard. but this isn't like same-sex marriage, where your marriage doesn't affect my marriage. your decision to pace your wife through the bike course DOES affect my wife's race. you're forcing my wife to either hire her own domestique or divorce me and marry a faster husband. i haven't "evolved" to this more liberal view of racing yet.

So why did the guy zig zagging not just stop?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 14:13

Post #113 of 168 (4751 views)

Slowman wrote:

"I just do not see it being against the rules in the swim."

right. i know you feel this way. doesn't change the facts.

"Drafting is legal in the swim."

it's legal in the run too. but pacing is not. when someone abandons or subordinates his own effort to finish as high as possible, rather focusing his efforts on helping someone else finish high, that's what's not legal.

i just don't know how else to explain this, dave. i think most people here get this. they might not agree with the rule. they might think it's difficult to enforce it. nevertheless, they understand the concept here. i don't know how else to explain this concept to you, except that you're a contrary, which means you're a smart guy, you get it, i know you get it, but you're a contrary.

so, do you just not understand what i'm writing, and have been writing? or you do and you're a contrary?

I think you and most people on the forum know the answer to this question.

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [Impulse-Warp] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 14:39

Post #114 of 168 (4712 views)

Impulse-Warp wrote:

Jordan seems very active on this topic. Anything to do with Chrabot complaining to his agent after a penalty Jordan got him at Arizona?

Seems like some want to keep this topic alive due to old bad blood.

Didn't this bike penalty thing happen in Texas 2014, between Tim Reed and Rapp?

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 15:09

Post #115 of 168 (4686 views)

Slowman wrote:

"couldn't Chrabot just say that he was helping Sanders in the swim because he would know that Sanders would help him on the bike?"

except matt by his own admission lollygagged around in T1 and sanders was long gone by the time matt was on the bike course. wouldn't it have made more sense for matt to just swim his speed and wait for lionel to catch up?

look, you can keep throwing this kind of stuff up. what if a guy's body was inhabited by an extraterrestrial, and that ET could actually sense through his feet, and the feet wanted to get a good look at a particular guy's head, so the ET swam just in front of another guy, at a pace 15 minutes slower than he ever swam an ironman before, collecting data on that guy's head? then the ET beamed back up after the swim because he got all the data he needed. it could happen!

at some point things have to pass the test of reasonableness. i would have no problem making this call and after i made it one time this stuff would instantly stop.

Lets keep our hypotheticals at least plausible please. The fact is that these guys could easily have claimed they were working with each other for their own benefits if they hadn't opened their mouths on ST as said otherwise. Frankly this whole thread is nothing if neither Barrie, Sanders or Charbot responds to this thread to defend. What I'm saying is if officials wanted an explanation after the fact they could of easily claimed this which supports my opinion that policing pacing on the swim would be impossible due to the possible explanations available (ones that are again plausible).

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [monty] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 15:30

Post #116 of 168 (4653 views)

monty wrote:

I feel that as long as drafting in swimming is legal, policing pacers would be impossible.//

Read my post just above yours, we have caught tons of pacers over the last 20 years of racing, and that was not even looking that hard..

But how many have you caught at the pointy end? I can see males helping females, husbands helping wives...but pros helping pros or top AGs helping other top AGs? Have you caught any? If so, which races and what were the circumstances? Seems to me it would be very difficult and if there were any accusations by officials against them it would be easily defended with plausible explanations.

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 16:02

Post #117 of 168 (4612 views)

h2ofun wrote:

Slowman wrote:

"is why we are at a point many people dont consider the sport anymore an individual sport."

i saw a guy in kona last week about 10 miles out from the end of the bike leg, another guy was RIGHT on his wheel. this guy in front was zigzagging, trying to get this guy off his wheel. the guy just stayed on the other guy's wheel. it was like looking at the end of a 2-up bike race.

these 2 guys each had a very different view of where the sport is right now. you can go to certain countries and ironman racing is for all intents and purposes draft legal.

if we want to make it draft legal, fine. let's just then please change the rules and let everybody know what the behavioral expectations are.

but it's like everything else in society: do nothing and the world, and society, trends toward chaos and disorder. if you don't want chaos then you have to pump energy into the system. this whole discussion is about pumping energy into the system or acquiescing to a different standard of behavior.

maybe there is a changing going on in our sport and i represent the old guard. but this isn't like same-sex marriage, where your marriage doesn't affect my marriage. your decision to pace your wife through the bike course DOES affect my wife's race. you're forcing my wife to either hire her own domestique or divorce me and marry a faster husband. i haven't "evolved" to this more liberal view of racing yet.

So why did the guy zig zagging not just stop?

Oh come on. Up to that point the draftee's race wasn't affected, except for the fact that he was (rightfully) annoyed. If he would have stopped that would have cost him time and his race would have been affected. Is that what you want? The draftee effectively being penalized? Or if he doesn't want that he should just suck it up and tow the drafter to T2? Nice.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 16:05

Post #118 of 168 (4602 views)

Richard Blaine wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Slowman wrote:

"is why we are at a point many people dont consider the sport anymore an individual sport."

i saw a guy in kona last week about 10 miles out from the end of the bike leg, another guy was RIGHT on his wheel. this guy in front was zigzagging, trying to get this guy off his wheel. the guy just stayed on the other guy's wheel. it was like looking at the end of a 2-up bike race.

these 2 guys each had a very different view of where the sport is right now. you can go to certain countries and ironman racing is for all intents and purposes draft legal.

if we want to make it draft legal, fine. let's just then please change the rules and let everybody know what the behavioral expectations are.

but it's like everything else in society: do nothing and the world, and society, trends toward chaos and disorder. if you don't want chaos then you have to pump energy into the system. this whole discussion is about pumping energy into the system or acquiescing to a different standard of behavior.

maybe there is a changing going on in our sport and i represent the old guard. but this isn't like same-sex marriage, where your marriage doesn't affect my marriage. your decision to pace your wife through the bike course DOES affect my wife's race. you're forcing my wife to either hire her own domestique or divorce me and marry a faster husband. i haven't "evolved" to this more liberal view of racing yet.

So why did the guy zig zagging not just stop?

Oh come on. Up to that point the draftee's race wasn't affected, except for the fact that he was (rightfully) annoyed. If he would have stopped that would have cost him time and his race would have been affected. Is that what you want? The draftee effectively being penalized? Or if he doesn't want that he should just suck it up and tow the drafter to T2? Nice.

Actually if someone is drafting off you, it reduces the low pressure area behind you and reduces your watts (very marginally but it does) for the same relative air speed. So as annoying as it is to pull a train of drafters, it's actually easier than riding solo!!!

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 16:06

Post #119 of 168 (4602 views)

Slowman wrote:

"I just do not see it being against the rules in the swim."

right. i know you feel this way. doesn't change the facts.

"Drafting is legal in the swim."

it's legal in the run too. but pacing is not. when someone abandons or subordinates his own effort to finish as high as possible, rather focusing his efforts on helping someone else finish high, that's what's not legal.

i just don't know how else to explain this, dave. i think most people here get this. they might not agree with the rule. they might think it's difficult to enforce it. nevertheless, they understand the concept here. i don't know how else to explain this concept to you, except that you're a contrary, which means you're a smart guy, you get it, i know you get it, but you're a contrary.

so, do you just not understand what i'm writing, and have been writing? or you do and you're a contrary?

Pacing is not something I think is as black and white as you are trying to make it. Yes, you can give one extreme and I agree with you. And then we can give the other extreme and you agree with me.
The issue is the reality of the middle. And this is where my questions are focused. I just do not see how for the majority of folks swimming you could ever make a rule that could be enforced.

If I talk to a person before the swim and find out that are a little faster than me, I would say I am going to try and draft them. If a person asks me, I say hang on to me feet. Is this pacing?
I can argue yes and no.

Again, your words, abandons or subordinates. Your examples on one extreme clearly I agree with you. But again, 99.9% of the time it is not that black and white.

All I am trying to get is moving forward to how to change, if needed, the rules to deal with the 99.9% of us racers.

Let me try this example. We all know drafting when we see it. So why did we need to have details on what drafting is?

We all know what you are saying is illegal when one abandons or subordinates his effort. But I just do not see the details in the wording of the rules, like in drafting, that make it easy to enforce.

And I do not see abandons or subordinates their efforts the same as pacing, which I see we do all the time and is legal, within the rules.

So, make sense what i am asking?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 16:10

Post #120 of 168 (4590 views)

Richard Blaine wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Slowman wrote:

"is why we are at a point many people dont consider the sport anymore an individual sport."

i saw a guy in kona last week about 10 miles out from the end of the bike leg, another guy was RIGHT on his wheel. this guy in front was zigzagging, trying to get this guy off his wheel. the guy just stayed on the other guy's wheel. it was like looking at the end of a 2-up bike race.

these 2 guys each had a very different view of where the sport is right now. you can go to certain countries and ironman racing is for all intents and purposes draft legal.

if we want to make it draft legal, fine. let's just then please change the rules and let everybody know what the behavioral expectations are.

but it's like everything else in society: do nothing and the world, and society, trends toward chaos and disorder. if you don't want chaos then you have to pump energy into the system. this whole discussion is about pumping energy into the system or acquiescing to a different standard of behavior.

maybe there is a changing going on in our sport and i represent the old guard. but this isn't like same-sex marriage, where your marriage doesn't affect my marriage. your decision to pace your wife through the bike course DOES affect my wife's race. you're forcing my wife to either hire her own domestique or divorce me and marry a faster husband. i haven't "evolved" to this more liberal view of racing yet.

If one is riding that crazy, they are losing time already. If someone was drafting that badly on me, and they would not stop, yep, I would stop quickly, let them go by making the point, and then quickly get back to riding.
Better than worrying about someone sitting on my butt and distracting me from the race.

So why did the guy zig zagging not just stop?

Oh come on. Up to that point the draftee's race wasn't affected, except for the fact that he was (rightfully) annoyed. If he would have stopped that would have cost him time and his race would have been affected. Is that what you want? The draftee effectively being penalized? Or if he doesn't want that he should just suck it up and tow the drafter to T2? Nice.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 16:12

Post #121 of 168 (4579 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

Richard Blaine wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Slowman wrote:

"is why we are at a point many people dont consider the sport anymore an individual sport."

i saw a guy in kona last week about 10 miles out from the end of the bike leg, another guy was RIGHT on his wheel. this guy in front was zigzagging, trying to get this guy off his wheel. the guy just stayed on the other guy's wheel. it was like looking at the end of a 2-up bike race.

these 2 guys each had a very different view of where the sport is right now. you can go to certain countries and ironman racing is for all intents and purposes draft legal.

if we want to make it draft legal, fine. let's just then please change the rules and let everybody know what the behavioral expectations are.

but it's like everything else in society: do nothing and the world, and society, trends toward chaos and disorder. if you don't want chaos then you have to pump energy into the system. this whole discussion is about pumping energy into the system or acquiescing to a different standard of behavior.

maybe there is a changing going on in our sport and i represent the old guard. but this isn't like same-sex marriage, where your marriage doesn't affect my marriage. your decision to pace your wife through the bike course DOES affect my wife's race. you're forcing my wife to either hire her own domestique or divorce me and marry a faster husband. i haven't "evolved" to this more liberal view of racing yet.

Interesting, will to remember that and not stop. So folks come and draft off of me on the bike. If you do not get a drafting call, looks like it would help me. So, did I break rules by saying I would not stop
and let them draft off of me on the bike?

So why did the guy zig zagging not just stop?

Oh come on. Up to that point the draftee's race wasn't affected, except for the fact that he was (rightfully) annoyed. If he would have stopped that would have cost him time and his race would have been affected. Is that what you want? The draftee effectively being penalized? Or if he doesn't want that he should just suck it up and tow the drafter to T2? Nice.

Actually if someone is drafting off you, it reduces the low pressure area behind you and reduces your watts (very marginally but it does) for the same relative air speed. So as annoying as it is to pull a train of drafters, it's actually easier than riding solo!!!

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 16:19

Post #122 of 168 (4564 views)

devashish_paul wrote:

Richard Blaine wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Slowman wrote:

"is why we are at a point many people dont consider the sport anymore an individual sport."

i saw a guy in kona last week about 10 miles out from the end of the bike leg, another guy was RIGHT on his wheel. this guy in front was zigzagging, trying to get this guy off his wheel. the guy just stayed on the other guy's wheel. it was like looking at the end of a 2-up bike race.

these 2 guys each had a very different view of where the sport is right now. you can go to certain countries and ironman racing is for all intents and purposes draft legal.

if we want to make it draft legal, fine. let's just then please change the rules and let everybody know what the behavioral expectations are.

but it's like everything else in society: do nothing and the world, and society, trends toward chaos and disorder. if you don't want chaos then you have to pump energy into the system. this whole discussion is about pumping energy into the system or acquiescing to a different standard of behavior.

maybe there is a changing going on in our sport and i represent the old guard. but this isn't like same-sex marriage, where your marriage doesn't affect my marriage. your decision to pace your wife through the bike course DOES affect my wife's race. you're forcing my wife to either hire her own domestique or divorce me and marry a faster husband. i haven't "evolved" to this more liberal view of racing yet.

So why did the guy zig zagging not just stop?

Oh come on. Up to that point the draftee's race wasn't affected, except for the fact that he was (rightfully) annoyed. If he would have stopped that would have cost him time and his race would have been affected. Is that what you want? The draftee effectively being penalized? Or if he doesn't want that he should just suck it up and tow the drafter to T2? Nice.

Actually if someone is drafting off you, it reduces the low pressure area behind you and reduces your watts (very marginally but it does) for the same relative air speed. So as annoying as it is to pull a train of drafters, it's actually easier than riding solo!!!

All the more reason that h2o's reasoning is, um, flawed. It's not my job as a competitor to enforce the rules. Just to not break them. And towing people is not a violation of any rule, so I'm not going to stop.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 16:24

Post #123 of 168 (4553 views)

Richard Blaine wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

Richard Blaine wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Slowman wrote:

"is why we are at a point many people dont consider the sport anymore an individual sport."

i saw a guy in kona last week about 10 miles out from the end of the bike leg, another guy was RIGHT on his wheel. this guy in front was zigzagging, trying to get this guy off his wheel. the guy just stayed on the other guy's wheel. it was like looking at the end of a 2-up bike race.

these 2 guys each had a very different view of where the sport is right now. you can go to certain countries and ironman racing is for all intents and purposes draft legal.

if we want to make it draft legal, fine. let's just then please change the rules and let everybody know what the behavioral expectations are.

but it's like everything else in society: do nothing and the world, and society, trends toward chaos and disorder. if you don't want chaos then you have to pump energy into the system. this whole discussion is about pumping energy into the system or acquiescing to a different standard of behavior.

maybe there is a changing going on in our sport and i represent the old guard. but this isn't like same-sex marriage, where your marriage doesn't affect my marriage. your decision to pace your wife through the bike course DOES affect my wife's race. you're forcing my wife to either hire her own domestique or divorce me and marry a faster husband. i haven't "evolved" to this more liberal view of racing yet.

I only asked why not stop since the example was a person was riding the bikes nuts, not in a safe way, and was all worked up about it.

So why did the guy zig zagging not just stop?

Oh come on. Up to that point the draftee's race wasn't affected, except for the fact that he was (rightfully) annoyed. If he would have stopped that would have cost him time and his race would have been affected. Is that what you want? The draftee effectively being penalized? Or if he doesn't want that he should just suck it up and tow the drafter to T2? Nice.

Actually if someone is drafting off you, it reduces the low pressure area behind you and reduces your watts (very marginally but it does) for the same relative air speed. So as annoying as it is to pull a train of drafters, it's actually easier than riding solo!!!

All the more reason that h2o's reasoning is, um, flawed. It's not my job as a competitor to enforce the rules. Just to not break them. And towing people is not a violation of any rule, so I'm not going to stop.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 16:35

Post #124 of 168 (4524 views)

h2ofun wrote:

Richard Blaine wrote:

devashish_paul wrote:

Richard Blaine wrote:

h2ofun wrote:

Slowman wrote:

"is why we are at a point many people dont consider the sport anymore an individual sport."

i saw a guy in kona last week about 10 miles out from the end of the bike leg, another guy was RIGHT on his wheel. this guy in front was zigzagging, trying to get this guy off his wheel. the guy just stayed on the other guy's wheel. it was like looking at the end of a 2-up bike race.

these 2 guys each had a very different view of where the sport is right now. you can go to certain countries and ironman racing is for all intents and purposes draft legal.

if we want to make it draft legal, fine. let's just then please change the rules and let everybody know what the behavioral expectations are.

but it's like everything else in society: do nothing and the world, and society, trends toward chaos and disorder. if you don't want chaos then you have to pump energy into the system. this whole discussion is about pumping energy into the system or acquiescing to a different standard of behavior.

maybe there is a changing going on in our sport and i represent the old guard. but this isn't like same-sex marriage, where your marriage doesn't affect my marriage. your decision to pace your wife through the bike course DOES affect my wife's race. you're forcing my wife to either hire her own domestique or divorce me and marry a faster husband. i haven't "evolved" to this more liberal view of racing yet.

I only asked why not stop since the example was a person was riding the bikes nuts, not in a safe way, and was all worked up about it.

So why did the guy zig zagging not just stop?

Oh come on. Up to that point the draftee's race wasn't affected, except for the fact that he was (rightfully) annoyed. If he would have stopped that would have cost him time and his race would have been affected. Is that what you want? The draftee effectively being penalized? Or if he doesn't want that he should just suck it up and tow the drafter to T2? Nice.

Actually if someone is drafting off you, it reduces the low pressure area behind you and reduces your watts (very marginally but it does) for the same relative air speed. So as annoying as it is to pull a train of drafters, it's actually easier than riding solo!!!

All the more reason that h2o's reasoning is, um, flawed. It's not my job as a competitor to enforce the rules. Just to not break them. And towing people is not a violation of any rule, so I'm not going to stop.

Can you at least attempt to quote and reply sensibly? You're scribbling somewhere in the middle of the quote. Took me quite a while to realize you actually wrote something; it looked you just clicked 'Quote' and 'Post Reply'.

But back to the topic at hand: Really?

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

Re: Chrabot/Sanders Swim [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]

Oct 15, 15 16:49

Post #125 of 168 (4505 views)

Why do you care?

/pink font implied

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