Opps, made a mistake. Guess I am human. :)

Didn't this bike penalty thing happen in Texas 2014, between Tim Reed and Rapp?

Chrabot in a recent TRS radio interview mentions how his penalty was identical in profile to the one handed down to Reed due to Rapp's bike 'tactics'. Same scenario down to them both getting a great long keyboard-warrior style email from Rapp defending himself after the event.

Quite frankly who cares whether Matt and Lionel worked it out that Lionel would draft Matt the entire swim. It's legal. Being a decent swimmer I have people jump on my feet all the time and draft me. Yeah, it sometimes pisses me off that they're getting a free ride but what can I do about it? The answer, swim faster and get them off my feet. But, at what cost? I've got no issues what-so-ever with people drafting on the swim. Heck, in 1997 when I was first out of the water in Hawaii, don't think for one second that I wasn't in a pace line with the professionals drafting. That's just the way the swim plays out and it's totally legal. Now, I do have one pet peeve about drafting on the swim. If you're going to do it, that's fine, but don't sit there keep hitting my feet. There's nothing more that pisses me off than that.

Anyway, just thought I'd chime in on this subject. Matt, anytime you want to pull me around for 2.4 miles, just let me know. I'd be happy to be your huckleberry!

Bruce Gennari

"is why we are at a point many people dont consider the sport anymore an individual sport."

i saw a guy in kona last week about 10 miles out from the end of the bike leg, another guy was RIGHT on his wheel. this guy in front was zigzagging, trying to get this guy off his wheel. the guy just stayed on the other guy's wheel. it was like looking at the end of a 2-up bike race.

these 2 guys each had a very different view of where the sport is right now. you can go to certain countries and ironman racing is for all intents and purposes draft legal.

if we want to make it draft legal, fine. let's just then please change the rules and let everybody know what the behavioral expectations are.

but it's like everything else in society: do nothing and the world, and society, trends toward chaos and disorder. if you don't want chaos then you have to pump energy into the system. this whole discussion is about pumping energy into the system or acquiescing to a different standard of behavior.

maybe there is a changing going on in our sport and i represent the old guard. but this isn't like same-sex marriage, where your marriage doesn't affect my marriage. your decision to pace your wife through the bike course DOES affect my wife's race. you're forcing my wife to either hire her own domestique or divorce me and marry a faster husband. i haven't "evolved" to this more liberal view of racing yet.

Monty,

Do we actually know if Matt was paid to lead out Lionel in the swim? I find that pretty hard to believe. And I know for a fact that people, when it comes to the swim, are looking for me before the swim begins. There are swimmers out there that are decent and have no problem staying in my wake and keeping up. You do realize this happens all the time. Look at some of the better than average women swimmers sitting on men's feet during the swim. This happens ALL THE TIME. What's the difference if they discussed this before hand or not? It's still bound to happen. Now, if someone call tell me without a shadow of a doubt that Matt was paid to pull Lionel around, well, that's a horse of a different color and I'm totally not down with that. But, if Matt and Lionel just had a conversation about Lionel shadowing Matt around the entire swim course, well, big deal, who is to say it wouldn't have happened anyway? It was either going to be Matt's feet or somebody else's feet. Case in point, in 1998 Jody Jackson set the women's swim record at that time. I think she swam 48:48. During that time she was in a pace line of men (which included myself) for over 60 percent of the time. This was when age group competitors started just 50 meters behind the professionals and we all went off at once. You can't tell me that her whole strategy in the swim was to catch and draft the men for as long as she could. Jody actually did this to perfection until she made the choice to attempt to come around us with over 800 meters to go. She tried to break free from the pack. She couldn't do it and was re-shuffled back to the back of the pace line. During that swim the rules were much like NASCAR. You can try to pass but if you fail, you're going to the back of the line. NOBODY is going to let you into their spot in the pace line. It was actually kind of funny watching her try to push her way into the front of the pace line. Every dude swimming was telling her, NOPE, get to the back of the line (including myself). I actually ended up getting out 3rd that year in 48:34. Again, Jody was 48:48. She set the record that year. Should she not have got the record because she drafted? Again, to me this is just race tactics. Because the swim is such a small part of the overall race, I really don't think it has a whole lot of bearing on who the best will be on that day. Now, I certainly believe that if you have an exceptionally slow swim that it could cost you the race as you won't be able to get into the "group dynamic" on the bike but a marginally slow swim isn't going to hurt you. I believe Lionel is a good swimmer and the benefit he received from Matt was negligible. That's my opinion and you know what they say about those.

Now, as far as how would I feel about losing out $50k to people that completely skirted the rules on the swim, bike and run to beat me. I'd freaking hate it and would have a huge problem with it. But, I have never heard of a lot of this going on in our sport. I believe that most people who participate in triathlon do so to see how far they can push their own limits. Well, that's my hope anyways. I know that why I try and do.

Love the debate here. Finally something I can actually discuss. Lord knows my biking or running skills can't ever enter into the equation.

Be safe out there boys and girls!

Bruce

FYI - The discussion thus far has established: Matt and Lionel discussed and agreed that Matt would help him (Lionel and Lionel's coach have both posted such in statement in a different thread), and that one athlete subordinating their race to another is against the rules.... I think that is about it.

I'm guessing you are not saying that you know that and think it is OK for athletes to break the rules. So maybe you think this is a rule that needs changed? It is OK for one athlete to be in the race for the exclusive utility of the other, across age groups, pro/age-group, or otherwise? Not just have someone on their feet (as you discuss), but a known pace-setter, sighter, etc. Further, if you go down that path, that could span to nutrition hand-ups. Maybe even "front running" to get "the right stuff" from an aid station, then handing that to the athlete.

It is a very slippery slope to say, in an individual sport, that it is OK to have one athlete who is really just there for the specific aid of another. In this case that has been established

I think that is the point. This is not a conversation about drafting in the swim. Now you should be up to speed.

I think I'm missing something. Are you saying, the only reason Matt is in this race is to guide Lionel through the swim???

Bruce,

You're talking about swim drafting of relatively compatible swimmers. This scenario was quite a bit different. You've got Matt, who swam 40:50 at IMCHOO (compared to your 42:23) yet followed that up with 61 minutes at Kona. Needless to say if he had been swimming honestly he'd have been in the low 50s at Kona. But he wasn't swimming honestly; he had agreed to pace Lionel at Kona and paced him to a 61. Swimming out of the pro wave, it is probably unlikely that Lionel would have found other feet to draft at that speed, so Matt was certainly planned assistance so that he would not be abandoned out there all alone while the front pack swimmers all benefited from the typical racing draft. Maybe that's cool and good strategy and good planning to seek out a domestique ahead of time. I think most find that it goes against the spirit of individual competition, if not the rules (though it seems pretty clear to be against the rules too).

Quite frankly who cares whether Matt and Lionel worked it out that Lionel would draft Matt the entire swim. It's legal. Being a decent swimmer I have people jump on my feet all the time and draft me. Yeah, it sometimes pisses me off that they're getting a free ride but what can I do about it? The answer, swim faster and get them off my feet. But, at what cost? I've got no issues what-so-ever with people drafting on the swim. Heck, in 1997 when I was first out of the water in Hawaii, don't think for one second that I wasn't in a pace line with the professionals drafting. That's just the way the swim plays out and it's totally legal. Now, I do have one pet peeve about drafting on the swim. If you're going to do it, that's fine, but don't sit there keep hitting my feet. There's nothing more that pisses me off than that.

Anyway, just thought I'd chime in on this subject. Matt, anytime you want to pull me around for 2.4 miles, just let me know. I'd be happy to be your huckleberry!

Bruce Gennari

You sir, are a thread killer, and when I see your posts start to appear I tend to check out. And, thus, adios.