OK, one more comment as it see this thread has run it's course anyway and it's just you and I chatting. Odd, as we are only about 20 miles apart right now and I could just go over to your office and accomplish the same thing. :) I agree for some people HR can be an extremely variable data point. But as anything it can be very individual specific. I don't have any meaningful HR variability as my HR graph shows. I am likely an outlier in that respect, I have also never had to pee during my 6 Ironman races, and because I am so in tune with what my HR does under varied conditions and situations, it works perfectly for me. And I have the added advantage I can use it for bike/run and have a single data point to watch. Makes life easy. I would disagree that a PM would improve my performance, it might but it also might not, it's too presumptive to say it would. I ran 3:26 in Kona in 2007 off a 5:03 bike but I was 39 and was injury free for 18 months heading into it.

I stole this from another thread, credit to Brett "Texafornia" Blankner:
Power is the work. HR is your body's reaction to the work (and fuel, hydration, heat, and rest).

Power is you at the museum. HR is a tour guide telling what the hell you are looking at.

Power without HR is like arguing with somebody over a play in football without actually knowing the rules of the game - You might be right, but you have no idea why.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

I just can't shut up I guess! I love to peach (sic) too!
1) What happens when HR monitor malfunctions? Woops!
2) You really can't argue about something that you have not tried. You had a PM for a small part of your training cycle and admitted it was too sketchy to track (compared to HR). That indicates to me that you didn't have it for a year or so where you really learn your numbers, efforts and output "feeling". The granular picture you gain over time is where the value lies. Any long time PM user knows what I am talking about here.
3) Even if I concede the point to you that you do a very good job of using HR monitoring yourself in a race (using what you have learned from training situations), you aren't thinking of your long term development. What do you do next year, ride at 146 beats instead of 145? With a PM you can see what your run does when you have different VI's, or you can ride at different NP's, or you can hit various IF's. You can take general guidelines you read on this forum and try them out for yourself. Season after season the puzzle fills in.
4) You've thrown out some run data from way back in 2007. How many times have you run sub 3:30? Someone with your capability and open run times should be running 3:18-3:25 AT YOUR CURRENT AGE! For some reason I think you forget you are a good runner, or may lack confidence in your run and overbike to compensate. Mark Allen's bottom line was not bike hard, it was BALANCE!!!
5) Why are you even participating in a "Kona and Age Group Power" thread? If you indeed believe your methodology is rock solid, you should be starting HR threads and discussing among other Luddites the value and virtues of HR pacing only. Until then, the peanut gallery (ie me!) is going to keep harping on you until we see you express the desire to keep learning and moving forward, not drowning in the methods of yesteryear.

Why did it take you less watts to go faster down from Hawi in 2012 (more wind), compared to 2013 (less wind) where it took you longer on more watts? Is this right?

1. I have only one time have HR data not come up for the entire race, this past weekend at SOMA! Rode the whole thing by RPE and average speed (figured the course was flat enough to get away with that). It was fascinating and I think I paced it ok, probably a bit too hard. The only other time was the first 10 miles of Kona last year but it came around. If we are going to debate which technique works the most consistently and accurately, it's a dumb HR monitor hands down. Power is finicky.

2. Ah, you misunderstand. I am not arguing AGAINST anything. I am arguing for a variety of protocols all if which provide benefit. I am far more egalitarian, I think it's important to not become too evangelical about stuff in this sport.

3. Good question. Nick and I are always using racing data and TT testing to see how as I age my HR values change. Racing tends to be the best source of that data and we adjust accordingly.

4. I appreciate that but I have seen a gradual domination of my run ability over the last few years independent of running in a Tri, just at the track and in my training. Just wait, my friend. :) I was running a lot faster when I was 41-43, 3:21 at IMAZ in '09, 1:26 at Vineman in 2011 and 1:28 at Vegas.

5. I love talking about this shit! :) The reason I didn't like using the PM for those few months was we had no data to work with and I was ignorant as to how to use it properly, even just calibrating it, I had no idea. And I never warmed up to the variability of the number even on delay. But that's the OCD talking.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

He didn't change his FTP setting in garmin connect. It's still the default of 200w. But yeah he's a beast.

That's Lance Armstrong's HIM power, he was pushing 280 max. But, yeah, awesome stuff.

Maybe because I was forced to stop at special needs this year? Or do you really think it was less windy coming down from Hawi this year? Maybe I just thought that was a wind hitting me in my face this year.......

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

1) You proved my point by filling in the details. No HR = Overbike. You have no real experience to think power is finicky. That is what all newbies to power think. Next time you are on a ride with a long time power meter user, quiz them and ask what power they "feel" they are riding at. I'd bet you a seasoned veteran will be within 90%, despite the measurement being "finicky". Can a PM drop out? Yes, but the aforementioned premise is your backup.
2) I only become evangelical about stuff that works. You can keep doing what you are doing with HR yes, but you'll never understand 90% of what everyone else with a PM is talking about until you get, use and understand yours. I am by far not the only one, you know that. Part of me thinks you are clinging on to the "old school" method because you get good results despite and you wear that as sort of a badge of honor. I think you do too, but I remain unimpressed with your runs off the bike. I think you can fly and demolish more dudes if you can run 7:15's and 7:30's. Be honest, there is nothing sexy about limping in "running" in the 8 min territory. Without a strong pace at the end of IM, you can't race anyone. You are just trying to finish.
3) Sounds like you are always looking in the rear view mirror with HR. Does any part of you find it appealing to set a goal to increase your bike power 5% this winter? You'll have to explain to me more how you approach your development during the offseason using HR, as I just don't understand it.
4) Did you mean "deterioration" or "domination"? You said you were running a lot faster back in "09 and '11 so I'm confused. Just so you know, I was too and so was the rest of your AG competition. Fact of Life that we don't need to dwell on. My point still stands that your open times don't match well with your tri times, at least not what I'd expect from a top guy.
5) I know you love this shit, so do I. That is why you need to pull 7-8 g's out of your fist and get on the bandwagon so we'll have something real to talk about. I'd pay more attention to what you say if you actually had and used a PM instead of just presuming things and giving ill-informed advice based on HR pacing and a nascent understanding of the device. The state of the art is moving away from you (even if it is right or wrong, it just is). I know your OCD want to ride at 14x, but once schooled with the PM feedback, it is very easy to tune into 200-215 watts and hold. Hell, you can even have your HR as a backup! There is a bright idea!

I didn't race in 2012 so I can't make direct comparisons with the winds. Yes, there was wind this year in Hawi, it was steady and not gusty though to me. I had zero "oh shit" moments, where as the previous 3 times I've raced there and another handful of times I've ridden up/down Hawi during vacations or training rides I usually get 2-3 of those moments in that area. Just a few days later after the race this year when I rode up through Hawi and over to Waikoloa I almost shit my shorts a few times dropping down through the gusts against my front 808.

I don't think a special needs stop would affect the data that much in terms of wattage, maybe time though. I'm still curious about the differences.

1. No, I was just not used having to do 56 miles using RPE. I was pretty close considering and I don't doubt any training protocol can achieve the same feel for effort.

2. Perhaps you need to consider how many "truths" of training have come and gone over the past decade. I'm not clinging to outdated modalities, I just like to keep my training and racing relatively simple. It's simply a choice, not statement. You're being a bit obtuse, I don't hate PM it advocate people not use them. I bet you were impressed with my run at IMSG last year, I must have missed seeing you. I think I know how to race an IM, I have never done an IM without KQ, Russ, give me some credit. :)

3. Yes, like I said, I'm waiting to see if I get a new bike sponsor and Garmin. If so, I'll be setting up in the tunnel and giving power a go.

4. My relative placing across all three sports has remained the same over the last few years. I haven't done any open road racing in a while, so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

5. Don't say I give ill-advised advice about HR training, that's actually a little insulting.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

The only comment worth (or not) replying to at this point is your #2. Keep hanging your hat on the distant past, Bryan. I'll dwell on the recent past, as I am only as good as my last race. I won't throw jabs using results, but I will use them to make a point. I give you a lot of credit, you are a great athlete. You could be better, specifically your run.

I think your sense of power numbers are a bit off. Obviously avg speed is course dependent. I averaged 26 at eagleman on 255w, and 23 at timberman on 275w (76kg). Elevation change, pavement, wind, other athletes all make a huge different in speed. I know a lot of pros who are riding well over 300 watts in halves and are much smaller than me.

Josh's preset ftp on his garmin is obviously wrong, but I'm not surprised it took that much power to go 4:30 at kona. Keep in mind he was out there later in the day than the pros (a full hour) and was riding solo the entire time. The wind picked up a lot as the day went on.

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___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

Hey, you started this argument! I do still want to lick your brain about Faster, looks like we are going to be with Ceepo..and Garmin . :)

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

I am not trying to disparage you. You are the Barometer. A rising tide lifts all ships.

I said "lick your brain" hehehe!

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

Huh?

I meant the actual device's, they can be a bit finicky.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

He lifts weights.

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Nice quotes but a load of nonsense.

Power is not the work.
Power is the rate of doing work.
That might seem like a subtle difference to some but it is a very important distinction, because it has significant ramifications wrt the physics and physiology of cycling performance that HR cannot convey, ever.

HR is the rate one's heart beats. No more and no less.

HR is influenced by many things, some of which are performance factors and some that are not. HR is not some magical all encompassing measure telling you the combined influence of all factors and how though shalt define appropriate race effort level.

Agree with the above. As a comparison, Starky suggested that his 4:04 Ironman Florida ride took 360-365W average

Josh's numbers make a lot of sense comparatively.

Except 2 (at least) other AG riders rode very similar times on a lot less power.

Given that josh said he rode very similar power at both IMLP and Kona the plausible possibilities are:
1> He is a brick
2> His power meter is defective
3> He failed to zero his power meter properly (other some variation of this)

Since he said that he used different PMs at IMLP and Kona - it probably rules out #2, which leaves options #1 and #3.

For comparison - I rode 2 different half ironmans (Racine and Pigman) this year at ~2:15 - so the same speed as Josh rode, and I did both of them on 70 to 80 less watts.

I've always pondered the validity of that statement, to me it smells a bit of BS. I'm no expert on calcuating the required wattage difference between 27.5 mph and say 25 or 26 mph, but 360 is a LOT of watts, a lot of the top tri pros only have FTPs only a handful of watts higher than that; and you should be going HELLA fast.

Not only that, but torbjorn rode to a faster split than Starky on watts that don't sound very otherwordly - which leads me to believe that Starky is just talking.

As he's always doing...

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"One Line Robert"

I was trying to be diplomatic :)

Won't even get into different courses/different days, but Sami Inkinen rolling 280W (to a similar time in Kona) has a PowerTap, so maybe 15 watts right there. Now we're at 295W and 320W for similar times, a small delta that could be wholly explainable by items like position, equipment, skill at slingshotting/legal draft and positioning tactics, power meter drift/calibration issues, etc. The scatterplots above show that generally power is a poor predictor of time, even on the same day in Kona. We have this notion that input = output and -1 is the relationship between watts and speed, which is not so. So to me Josh's numbers are credible. He outsplit Andy Potts at Lake Placid by 7 minutes iirc...would it surprise you if Andy rode 310W and Josh rode 320W on that day? That's probably about right...