Josh,
Two things.
1 - Very nice swim. 4 minutes faster at Kona than Lake Placid. That's quite an improvement and has been lost in your bike overperform, run underperform.
2 - You rode 4:40 and ran 3:04 at Louisville in 2010. That was a brutal day; near 100 degrees and humid, very Kona-like. To an outsider it seems you thrive in the heat and tough conditions. Did you have a powermeter at Louisville 3 years ago?

And, that's a sweet pic of you motopacing, but a dangerous one to post on slowtwitch, where the hounds will decide you are clearly well-versed at drafting. But, starting the ride in 1500th place and riding 4:32 means any drafting must have occurred on your rear wheel only. Did you pick up any parasites on the journey? Typically you blow by too fast to attract any passengers, but at Kona your 25mph must have looked appealing to other's 23-24mph.

So in your opinion Rapp overbiked as well?

Or overswimming.

Or both.

Race report is posted now: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
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Yes, Austin 70.3 and then IMFL..........See you there :)

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
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Interesting, how did you come up with that?

I seem to think that over biking is riding beyond your aerobic and/or muscle endurance abilities. You have now educated me on the fact that thermoregulation is also due bike fitness.

In my opinion I paced my bike appropriately based on the fact that I:
-Raced at similar or lower watts than my Kona Qualifier with similar fitness (as did almost all other posters here)
-Raced at <70% FTP
-Raced at constant watts and RPE

I've also done many hot weather races (including Kona on a hotter day), but never before had this same sensation of "overheating". In retrospect I do however think that I paid less attention this time to preparing for the heat. In that respect I found Dev's response quite helpful.

If someone's qualified for Kona I seem to think they probably have enough insight into their own training/racing to figure out how to properly pace. I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt on this.
However, it seems many here like proclaim "Bullshit dude, you totally overbiked!"

Point taken, I suppose the fact that you put together a solid run on Saturday makes you an authority on the subject.

All slow runs and all overheating are due to over biking.
Got it, thanks.

dude, if the over heating happens while on the bike, you're over biking. where do you think that heat comes from? it's a race, not a math problem. if you feel yourself getting hot, slow down. 10 watts might mean the difference between a good and bad run.

let's say you're putting out 250 watts into the pedals... that means you're probably putting out at least 750 watts and maybe as much as 1000 watts of heat into your body.

Me? I biked at a higher wattage at Kona than my qualifier, when I felt hot, I slowed down. I ran average... heat was definitely the limiter on the day.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I very well understand how the body produces heat thanks.
I'm actually a physician, not a retard.

Do you honestly think I didn't slow down when I got hot?
Yes, heat was a limiter agreed.
If I could have biked higher watts comfortably I would have as well, because my legs felt good. As in Tremblant, I paced by feel and not watts.

The difference was I couldn't tolerate the heat at all once I started running. Others didn't seem to have the same problem.

I've made my point, you've made yours.
Lets move on.

Reply to Larbot and Eric combined. Like Larbot, I did Tremblant and Kona. Tremblant I biked 190W, Kona 191W (average...Tremblant has more coasting, so really Tremblant was a harder ride....need to check my NP). Both my runs were bad at Tremblant it was my second IM In 3 weeks (4:03), in Kona torn hamstring (4:11). LP was around 3:51, which is what I SHOULD be running for all my Ironmans if I am healthy, uninjured and execute my nutrition plan.

In St. Croix, I rode my bike ride there at 195W....that is barely IM pace...normally half IM I ride at 215-218W. In St. Croix when I got out of the water, normally you feel cool as the water evaporates...instead, I felt zero evaporation (Korea/Japan/Hong Kong July humidity). I knew right there that I needed to take down my bike intensity by 10% and chose to essentially soft pedal most of the bike. I'm a small guy and dissipate heat well and even then I could feel it, especially the low velocity parts of the bike like the Beast where you're basically encased in a humidity "bubble". I ran 1:48 in St. Croix but I magically moved up from around 9th off the bike to 3rd because almost everyone was walking. Guys were walking every aid station and I was just jogging. Eric, you know what that Asian humidity is like and this was the same. I have been on runs in Taipei, when I go to the track and jog for 400m, and I have to walk from my heart rate exploding, but then as soon as I walk, my core overheats due to lack of air flow "cooling effect". It is a catch 22 when it gets that humid.

I have not been to Kona enough, but my Quarq said it was up at 35-37C...not super hot (like not 40+), but it "seemed" to be more humid than normal. Personally I chose to overbike a bit (for me), knowing that my run would be bad due to injury. But taking off 5-10W may have been the prudent thing on this day....looking at the implosions at the front of the field: Crowie, Docherty, Jacobs, Ralaert, Boeckel, Rapp etc etc etc....brutal carnage, and in general, at the front of the pro field they have to overbike a bit., but overbiking a bit in humidity is deceptive because we have some airflow and it does not "feel that bad", but it really is.

So Larbot, I THINK that we feel like we know what to do, but both for you and I, maybe we underestimated how humid it was. It is really hard to tell on the bike. It is clear that many pros underestimated the humidity+heat combo, and I don't think we age groupers were that much different (except, I was waaay in the back of the field). Many of my friends racing the same speed as me in LP + Tremblant (women and older men who KQ'd with high 10.xx times) went 1.5-2 hours slower in Kona.I think the slower you are the more dramatic the decline versus the faster guys.

Food for thought.

I believe the dew point was quite high (>70) which I've heard is a bigger factor than both absolute temp and humidity. I didn't feel hot at all during the whole race, but maybe that was a factor too

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Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |

This is why I like St. Croix and IM France. LP and Tremblant also 'reward' the less aero with decent watts per kilo. I would imagine that Tahoe falls into the same grouping.

Updated with a pic. Would like to go lower in front but currently maxed out on existing setup. Will play around with different options now that kona is done

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Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |

I don't think it's quite that simple. I think I over-biked *early* in the bike ride, but not because I simply rode "too hard." I rode too hard early after having had a hard swim, in quite warm water, on a day with high humidity, and with a tailwind early, having not properly acclimatized in advance of the race.

Now, at the root of it, I definitely think I could have salvaged my race if I'd backed off on the power and focused on cooling myself in the first 30min of the race. But by that same token, my power output for the first 30min was the exact same power as at IMTX & IMNYC. And it was quite a bit less than in Melbourne.

So did I ride too hard? You bet I did. But it wasn't like I rode 30min @ FTP or something obviously way too hard for ANY Ironman. I rode too hard given the conditions in this particular race and the environment-specific training that I did (or rather, did NOT do) beforehand.

Ultimately, the end result is the same. I only clarify because I think it's useful in terms of what you - and I - can learn from the mistake(s) that I made.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

On the recent threads re: the value of HR, you said that you don't use HR in races, and don't even wear a HR strap.

Given that an increased HR is an early indicator of heatstroke, and your statement that you think you could have salvaged your Kona if you had backed off in the first 30 min of the bike, do you think there is some value to having HR on the bike now?

In other words, you were riding at power levels which you had done in previous IM's, but if you had been able to note that your HR was not at a level comparable to those previous efforts, could / would you have been able to back off before you got in too deep of a hole?

I'm not suggesting that HR be used in lieu of power, but wondering if it can help provide some context to your efforts.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

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Humidity + Heat can be very tricky to race in, because you can't really tell it is bad in the water, and you can't tell it is really bad as soon as you get on the bike. Here are a few cues, that I would like to pass on to you guys from my experience both racing in ultra high humidity and heat as well as several training sessions during biz trips in the vicinity of the south China sea during summer (Hong Kong, Taipei, Shenzhen...some of those runs I needed walking breaks every 2 min or so due to the humidity).

When you come out of the water, on a "normal day" in most of the US, Canada or Europe, you normally feel a bit cold running to your bike as water evaporates from your body. Once on the bike, you may feel cool as the water from your wet body evaporates.

When it is hot with a fairly high dew point with high humidity, you might notice the following:

1. You get out of the water, and running to your bike already feels warm. There is no evaporation/cooling effect. If it already feels like a sauna, this is a cue that the bike watts may need to go downward.
2. Early in the bike it feels like a bit of a "heat bubble" around you. Nothing is evaporating (well it is, but a bit slower than normal).
3. Eventually it does evaporatate, and now you don't really feel that warm

By step 3 it "might" be too late as you may be "overcooking" yourself because you think you can sustain "normal" watts, which may be fine for the entire bike but you're getting dehydrated more than you think without the usual cooling benefit and your core temp may be rising, more than you think.


As soon as you get to T2, there is zero air flow. Now if your core temp is high, you may feel a total thermal implosion. Best thing is to NOT SIT DOWN because now you will overheat even worse. Get your running shoes on ASAP, get out of transition ASAP and start creating some air flow by running....but run easy for the first few miles because if not, the riding core temp from T2 will go through the roof with the additional thermal load from high power output fast pace running (which inherently means more heat created in your core).




Anyway, all this from further back in the Kona pack but on a plus side, between IMLP, IMTremblant and IMKona I only had a 5 min spread between all those race times, so even though I was not quite on form for Kona running, I did pay attention to the thermal cues that presented themselves. I did overbike somewhat, but it was intentional, knowing I had a running injury to contend with. I will say that the first few miles out of T2 past the royal Kona I felt like I was in a thermal bubble wrap, and I generally deal with heat well.


When I look at the number of amazing athletes who had sub par run days at Kona: Jacobs, Crowie, Boeckel, Rapp, Ralaert, Docherty, many of whom generally do really really well in the heat, I have to suspect that the humidity was "hidden enemy". These guys were coming back from Hawi very close to the top bikers like Starky, Mackenzie, Kienle and Faris (please someone clean up Faris' position....he should be coming off the bike with Luke and Sebastien!!!!).


Small girls like Rinny and Rachel Joyce had stellar days so everyone is saying it was a record breaking day....but their volume to surface ratio is very favourable for humid days. I am sure Cat Morrison would have also been flying in this too. Bigger girls like Steffen, Cave, HeatherWurtele etc....not so good. At the women's press conference, Steffen was wondering what happened, and I think the answer is "physics happened"....volume to surface ratio. You can't change yours by much other than lose pounds, but you can only take that so far.

Yes and no. I'm thinking about it for next year. At the same time, there were plenty of other indicators. It's another data point. For whatever that is and isn't worth.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

if I were you rather than lower I'd go longer to create some space to allow for shoulder shrugging and head turtling. You can kind of tell by the way your hands are wrapped around the lower part of the ski bend.

you can do that a couple of ways, lowering and pushing back the saddle or a longer stem natch.

for reference, we had similar bike times but I'm 6'2" and 180lbs on 211AP 229NP.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

thanks Eric - I see what you're saying - I'll try shifting the cockpit a bit forward - maybe a longer stem will be required. I can't really take the saddle further back though. Thanks for sharing your power numbers - that is indeed a good reference point - plus we were wearing the same suit...

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Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |

Did you put on the Octane in T1 or have it rolled down under a swimskin? Just curious...

I had it on with the upper part rolled around my waist. It was a fairly easy process getting it on. I swam fast enough I think that I had a helper in T1... perhaps if I swam slower I'd have had to wrestle the fabric over my shoulders by myself.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

if you look at at my upper arm angle it's more open than yours... you're at like 90* and more open.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Height: 5'9.5"
Weight: ~163 lbs
NP = 227w
AP = 219w
Ride Time = 4:58
Completely blew up 10 miles on the run unexpectedly. I do not think I rode too hard.. been using the same power target for 5 IM's with success the last 2 times. TSS well below 300 (FTP = 306w)

Not the fastest frame out there, but optimized what I could as far as having a clean cockpit/setup. Comments to improve position welcome:


Ride data: http://www.trainingpeaks.com/...4B33MEUYAO33LAJOEVMQ

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T. Guertin / Spocket

That's always been one of my issues with the "HR has no value" chorus. Power alone is not necessarily a good indicator for heat situations, altitude, onset of training fatigue (over a duration of time, not one day), getting sick or just having a bad day. At the least, it seems there are various scenarios where power and HR together provide a more comprehensive picture.

You would think but the Power Nazi's seem oblivious to this.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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I have found heart rate to be very useful in adjusting power down to the proper level whenever it is very hot. From there, what feels right fine tunes the effort level so that my power does not drop too far off target (for perfect weather).

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-Bryan Journey
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