Certainly raised my unibrow. I don't trust this guy.

A proven pro Tour doper excelling at Tri, where there is virutally no testing?
Where have we seen this before?....

That's a shocker.

(and not even the good kind)

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float , hammer , and jog

"like"

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Eliot
blog thing - strava thing

James B and/or Daniel S will beat him at Kona.

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Matt Amman

The guys got some chops....you have to tip your hat to him.

Until you can provide he's cheated he's the winner.

Presumably you're kidding...

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...ping_past__4314.html

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Brian Shea
http://www.PersonalBestNutrition.com
Open-Water/Masters Swimming at the Jersey Shore:
Monmouth County NJ Ocean Swim/Masters Workouts

almost makes me sad my parents never doped me when I was younger...

edit: one in the pink

I hope this guy is made to feel VERY uncomfortable at awards today.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

I am all for busting on this guy as he is a proven doper.

However, the bigger issue in my mind is that the AG race is largely untested both in competition and OOC... so the assumption that this is the only AGer with a doping history, or that even the assumption that only a very few AGers are doping seems silly to me. We just don't know, as they are not tested like the pro's.

AG racing is sort of the wild west. No testing (by and large) means it's hard to assume the positive or the negative.

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Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!

Yeah, Colom outbiked Gomez by two and a half minutes, and even road faster than the best pro bike split of Sanders by 34 seconds. What's that phrase again..... oh yeah: NOT NORMAL.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Someone needs to Sam Gyde him at awards!

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

+1000

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Oh agree completely. It's going around FB at this moment ;-)

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Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!

At this level of AG competition having a 6 min lead means he was riding/running circles around some of the best AG talent out there.

Which brings back up the question why he would not race Pro.

Racing Pro would be a token of good faith.
As that would give his performance (marginally) more credibility, even with the poor testing of Pros. But at least there is some out of competition testing, AFAIK(?).

And Twitter!

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

Agreed. And the audience needs to be clear, too.

I agree. I am no fan of Colom and don't think he really should be racing AG, rather he should race pro. My comment was more directed at the unregulated nature of AG racing.

Even #7 raced pro triathlon (and not amateur) after his cycling days...

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Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!

That time, especially the bike, is pretty darn speedy. I rode a 2:18 today and can't imagine going about 15-16 min faster - there were a few hills on the course.

I really hope Daniel S does what Sam Gyde did at Frankfurt. Only reason I'd go to awards tonight is to boo.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023

I hope you do go and boo. Then cheer your ass off for Burke and Stubleski. The more people like you there, the better!


Edit to say, nice race - great bike split.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

The rumor is that he's going to turn pro next year. Let me count all the ways in which I am excited about that...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I wouldn't worry Jordan. The honest and decent people in the sport such as yourself will always gather more attention and respect from people like myself (and I suspect many others) than ANY former doper.

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Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!

That was the rumor last year too. I guess he wasn't done beating up the little kids so needed another year to feed his ego. Still trains like a pro as well ... and in spain its interesting the amount of AG'ers that treat this guy like a hero

http://tonicolomworld.com/?page_id=196 ... and his moto is something like: "my past, my future, never give up"

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

call me naive here but what's the issue?

the guy is a former PRO cyclist. meaning automatically he's close to if not one of the best cyclist in triathlon. my assumption (please correct/educate me if i'm wrong) is that any of the guys on the pro tour (ie anyone from anytime at the tour de france) could likely step in and put out the best ride in an ironman (for me, a top 3 seems to be a safe assumption). why does it surprise everyone that a former professional cyclist is 6 mins faster than the best AG? what's more surprising is that this top AG'er is only 4 minutes slower than someone like a pro (someone said gomez was 2 mins faster than the best pro and 6 mins faster than the best AG, so the difference is 4 mins). that i feel raises more flags than colom's 6 min difference.

not to mention i don't see why people can't earn a second chance. ok, he realizes he needs to dope to race pro, decides he doesn't want to do it and still wants to race. any normal person would look at triathlon and think "hmm, i could do well there without requiring PED's".

the same thing happened when weiss won cozumel, people were up in arms. he seems to be a pretty good dude and is quite transparent with his anti doping passport etc. not to mention he has put in numerous other outputs that place him pretty well.

yeah, he doped, yeah, it sucks. but it didn't hurt you. could it hurt to give someone a second chance? do they not deserve to earn an living as well? especially if they no longer cheat.

john

Alternatively he could think "hey they don't do drug testing, what better place to continue my career!"

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Rodney
TrainingPeaks | Altra Running | RAD Roller
http://www.goinglong.ca

"I called a spade a spade, I called him a doper to his face. He started yelling and swearing at me in Spanish. In my mind, once a doper always a doper. Once you cross over that line to cheat, doping, drafting, etc. it is a lot easier to do it again and after a while it appears these athletes become oblivious to the rules," said Starykowicz. "Is triathlon a second chance for these athletes? No."

Starky says no.


Also some food for thought:


To put the efforts of Guerra and Colom in perspective, at the 2012 Ironman 70.3 Texas Lance Armstrong was about 1.5 minutes slower on the bike than Sebastian Kienle, and the now disgraced Texan was well known and respected for his dominating TT skills and speed. But Guerra and Colom can apparently ride 3-4 minutes faster than Kienle on the same distance after an opening 1.2 mile swim.


Virtually saying either he's a better cheater than LA or better time trialist?

I second T.O.'s thoughts on the matter (article is a good read):

I would agree with some of the other professionals on a strong stance against the 1st degree (as I call them) doping offenses. Such a blatant disregard for the spirit of sport and for your competitors by using these doping methods should not be looked upon lightly. Racing professionally is a privilege, not a right. I often hear people say these athletes made mistakes and deserve a second chance. Taking a supplement that is cross-contaminated and getting a positive test is a mistake, that deserves a second chance. Calculating blood doping schedules and micro-dosing EPO is a deliberate attempt to gain an advantage over your competitors and it is malicious. The first degree doping offenders do not deserve a second chance in professional competition. They may deserve a second chance in other aspects of their life, but not in racing. I know convicted dopers that are really nice guys and who would be great company over a beer. Would I be willing to forgive past transgressions and be cordial over a drink, sure. Would I gladly invite them to the start line of a race after two years, no. Like I said, racing professionally is a privilege, when that privilege is disrespected and abused it should be revoked.

When it comes to the influx of cyclists with 1st degree offenses that have decided to pursue triathlon, I say don't bring your dirty laundry into our sport. The norm in triathlon is clean competitors not dirty. Are there triathletes doping while I type this sentence, I am sure there are some. However, it will not be accepted by the overwhelming majority of professional triathletes. We will not let our sport go the way of cycling in the past and we need to do our best to make sure we let that be known.

These are my thoughts exactly. Thanks for writing it, you saved me a lot of time.

One other thing to consider.. FOLLOW THE MONEY. There are probably 175 pro tour cyclists in the world that make 250K and about 8 triathletes.. So, as a young aspiring endurance athlete which are you choosing for your profession? It is not a surprise at all that the cyclists can cross over, they are superior athletes from the beginning.

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Austin Hardy -

The big issue is that it's not clear that someone can ever really be called an ex-doper. I saw this study posted in regards to Justin Gatlin's recent remarkable performance in the 100/200, where he dominated both - http://jp.physoc.org/...ol.2013.264457.short

But there is evidence that the same general logic holds with numerous other forms of doping as well.

The training that you did while doping doesn't just disappear when you stop taking drugs, and that is assuming that this guy stopped taking drugs, which is perhaps a big assumption considering that when Lance Armstrong returned to triathlon, his margin was often smaller than Colom's; he got outrode by Kienle in Galveston. And Lance was an Olympic medalist in the TT. Colom was, by all accounts, just an average TTer when he was a protour rider, not even close to the level that Lance was at.

But regardless, in all these cases - Lance included - it's very debatable about whether or not someone can ever truly be considered "clean" if they are convicted of doping, especially if they come from a sport where doping was rampant and where I think you'd be hard pressed to say that a doping offense was a "one time thing."

So the issue is that this guy is almost still certainly benefiting from that doping.

More and more, this is the logic that is being presented in arguing for lifetime bans as the norm for things like steroids, EPO, etc. For acute substances - say you get banned for a stimulant in competition - then a shorter ban is acceptable, because there isn't a lasting effect (note that many of the stimulants banned in-competition are not banned for use in training).

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

"The training that you did while doping doesn't just disappear when you stop taking drugs"

Thank You ... just don't understand why people do not understand this ... years of training effect does not just disappear because you took the need out of your ass

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

So you are saying the guy was a donkey before drugs, I don't buy it.

I look at it a little diffident. He is racing with-in the rules.....he's fast and wins! Until you can't point to where he's cheated

You are naive.

Much fewer than 175 guys making 250k. I don't have any numbers on this but I think that's a big overestimate.

actually it might quite possibly do just that...

didn't Dr. Ferrari said in an interview that he saw a VO2 decline below their original level in people taken off EPO. I don't think there is anything published due to the fact that you would have to give a group of people EPO in the first place to perform a study but if anyone has good insight into that than it is Ferrari...

So untill there is a study performed to look into that I just don't see it as a good argument.

But whether people deserve a second chance is a totally different question. personally I think stuff like EPO and transfusions deserve a lifetime ban but that is just to make it more difficult for people to rationalise crossing that hurdle...

jordan,

thanks for taking the time to reply and give me a better understanding of this. to argue the other side (just for the sake of it). he's significantly younger than lance armstrong. perhaps lance 8 years younger would have done better than kienle? perhaps he's not as strong of a runner so he held back a bit more for the run? perhaps he pushed too hard on the run? i think there are a lot of factors at play here. (different course, different day, different training).

at some point the positive gains you get from doping go away. just because you did steroids and got huge 5 years ago doesn't mean you maintain that muscle mass for life. i'm not as well versed in the literature as you perhaps are in this subject matter.

i'm not condoning cheating, i think folks deserve a second chance. that is all.

john

Why wouldn't he say that? He's protecting his investment

You do not know that. The anecdotal evidence says he is not racing within the rules, and his past suggest a willingness to break those rules by injecting EPO. Until he starts getting OOC tests regularly (which will never happen) then he deserves to be suspect. His choices in the past make him a subject of ridicule, as he should be. (There is nothing in the rules that says a competitor returning from a ban should not be ridiculed and ostracized.)

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

at some point the positive gains you get from doping go away. just because you did steroids and got huge 5 years ago doesn't mean you maintain that muscle mass for life. i'm not as well versed in the literature as you perhaps are in this subject matter. //

Sure they do, when you die. And we are not talking about body building here, your head is in the wrong sport...

what if he committed to OOC testing. how would you feel then?

seems like michi weiss did that and people still refuse to give him another chance.

john

I would feel a lot better about it. I would still hate the guy, because only a complete asshole chooses to screw over his competitors, coaches, friends and family like that. But I would complain less about him being in the race. Does EPO give you a life-long benefit? I do not know. I think it may be long lasting, but after a couple years of training at necessarily lower power levels, fitness must pare back towards natural ability - I *think*. That is just what common sense tells me but I am certainly no biologist.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Why is this the case? WTC clearly has the means to test. They just gave their investors $220m payday; surely they can invest in some testing, both in and out of competition. And, if this guy isn't targeted for OOC tests, it shows WTC's commitment to clean racing is a farce.

This past week was US Cycling Masters National Championships. It had extensive testing. This is for a US only championships. For Masters, just a subset of amateurs. Why on earth can WTC not commit some resources to at least putting up the facade that they care about clean sport.

Does anyone know any AGs that have been tested at any WTC event this year? Even one?

Agreed. "If it doesn't impact me, it is not my problem" implies you don't care about the long term success of the sport.

My answer is a resounding, FUK NO! I'm not giving the guy a chance. He's a piece of shit. He was a professional athlete and a cheat. Low life scum suck sucking dirt bag. I don't give a rat's ass about testing him now. He already proved when it mattered the most he failed. In my opinion he gets no second chances in a sport where people kill themselves with family life, 50+ hour a week jobs and real commitments. This is a lifestyle sport even for the AG guys who are the fastest. This ass hat ripped past me last year on the Vegas course like I was standing still. Won the race there last year as well. What is he proving right now?

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Team Zoot Northeast

And just in case he can't understand my South Jersey english I'll save him the time and give his dumb ass a free google translation!

Mi respuesta es un rotundo , FUK NO! No voy a dar al hombre una oportunidad. Es un pedazo de mierda . �l era un atleta profesional y un tramposo . Bajo escoria vida chupar chupar bolsa suciedad. Me importa un culo de rata de �l probando ahora . �l ya demostr� cuando importaba lo m�s que pudo . En mi opini�n no se le da una segunda oportunidad en un deporte donde las personas se quitan la vida con la vida familiar , 50 + horas a puestos de trabajo por semana y compromisos reales . Este es un deporte de estilo de vida , incluso para los chicos AG que son los m�s r�pidos . Este sombrero culo arranc� junto a m� el a�o pasado en el curso Vegas como yo estaba de pie todav�a . Gan� la carrera all� el a�o pasado tambi�n. �Qu� est� demostrando en este momento?

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Team Zoot Northeast

way to assume that i don't care. in all sports, folks cheat and are given a second chance. not to mention they have never cheated in triathlon. or if it makes you feel better i will say they have never tested positive in triathlon.

if you cheated in football should you be banned from all sports for life? if you doped to be an olympic distance runner should you be banned from all other sports in life? i personally don't think so. i think that it is ultimately up to each sport to make sure that the athletes are not cheating.

the fact is, it doesn't matter if colom is cheating or not. what matters is what triathlon is doing to keep cheaters from racing. if he's cheating and racing then it's triathlons fault (not fully of course). look, i don't think folks who have been cheating in triathlon be allowed to race. i don't know if a lifetime ban is the answer, but it is certainly in the right direction. but you know what? you can't give a lifetime ban if you don't have during and ooc testing.

make sense?

john

EPICO!

Mike for the win!

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

I understand your sentiment and in theory am for this but it is kind of tricky. The sport he was cheating for makes up the majority of our sport so it's not like he wouldn't have any benefit. Maybe it would be more clearcut if triathlon were truly a different sport but essentially it's just a combination of three.

Ok. I get what you're sying, but I am not willing to accept any cheating and/or any cheaters. Drafting, dropping your swim cap and other infractions are rightly punished, but those who take PEDs have the ability to chase away future racers, sponsors and coverage.

Ole!

He doped while riding a bike. The training and gains he made while doping didn't go away when he stopped (like Rapp said). He sure as hell shouldn't be allowed to enter a competition that involves riding a bike. I personally wouldn't let him do any sport professionally, and wouldn't let him take AG spots away from those who earned it the hard way.

Doping while a professional athlete is effectively stealing. Perhaps that will help stop all the equivocation.

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

right, because testing in WTC races are so good and there is so much OOC testing that we are sure the pointy end of AG racing is dope free.

for all we know he's beating doped up AG'ers. perhaps it's because he is a former professional rider. did he dope after he became pro? or did he dope to become pro. if he doped after he became pro is it that hard to believe that he has the ability to put down the best 56 mile split at a triathlon that was supposedly a "more difficult" course?

look, i don't know the guy from a ham sandwich. never heard of him before. not a fan of his, not a hater either. i just think it's always a good idea to put yourself in the other shoes and try to gain some perspective. i feel that is the best way to move the sport forward. extreme on either end is never good imo, whether it be cheating or anti cheating.

john

>. The training and gains he made while doping didn't go away when he stopped (like Rapp said).

The article Rapp posted was based on use of anabolic steroids, and even then it was speculative, not definitive. Colom took EPO (well, he may have taken other things, but he definitely took EPO).

According to this article from Velonews, stopping EPO usage does is very bad for high dosage use and undetermined for microdosing. (Colom likely microdosed given the state of EPO testing at the time).

But it seems unlikely that EPO effects go from very bad following cessation of a high dose to indefinitely performance enhancing following cessation of low dosage. It's more likely that the bad effects are just proportional to dosage in some way. But I could be wrong...sometimes nature acts in funny ways.

I can't put myself in his shoes. I race to better myself and because I enjoy doing it, and couldn't imagine going to such extremes to cheat. I'm not perfect by any means but to dope you've basically climbed the ladder of ways to cheat until you hit the top.

As for insinuating other triathletes at the pointy end doping, that's a pretty bold statement. If they are doping they deserved to be banned. However this guy was caught cheating, they weren't. I don't see how everyone can be so diehard on LA's ban, then defend others. Racing is a privilege, not a right. He cheated and should have his privilege taken away.

LA's ban also has to do with his trying to ruin other people's lives to protect his own 'credibility' and his inability to own up for years and years, yes?

Don't throw facts into my knee-jerk tie raid!!!!

The article Rapp posted was based on use of anabolic steroids, and even then it was speculative, not definitive. Colom took EPO (well, he may have taken other things, but he definitely took EPO).

According to this article from Velonews, the long-term effects of EPO usage do not appear to be at all beneficial to performance. //

I would be surprised if he took less than 5 illegal drugs. As we have seen in others, 6 to 10 were not uncommon, and they had to keep adjusting to different tests.

As to long lasting performance, everyone out there that is/was an athlete, was it harder to get to a level from scratch, or to get back to it after a layoff(offseason injury, break). Maybe it is just me alone in the world, but when i got to be able to run a certain pace, or swim a certain pace, it was just weeks, or a month or so to get back to that level. But to get to my first sub hour 40k, or 1 minute for a 100 fly, took year and years. And each level i went faster than that too years too, but just a very short period to get back to. Now in retirement for a very long time, and with health problems and 3 years away from the sport, it took me just a few months on 9 hours a week of training to do a very hard 1/2 ironman in 4;44 at the age of 50. And the "only" reason i could do that is from a long history of having trained at a high pace. So "I KNOW" what training i did in the past "DEFINITELY" has followed me, and after many long layoffs and getting old as a tree.


Why is it so hard for the rest of you to just look at yourselves as examples too of what long term benefits training has? Or am i really the only one this happens to? And i'm sure if i had doped and went 10 minutes faster in my prime, i would be even faster now. I believe it is all about muscle memory, and they remember very well and long, like elephants..

I think that's why people hate him so much and probably is why he got a lifetime ban. As far as athletics go I don't see how that should affect his ban from racing though. The fact he was a dick didn't make him any better an athlete.

One thing to keep in mind. A pro tour cyclist is going to have a p/wt ratio of at least 5.8 and higher at FTP or you're racing on a lower level.

How many pro triathletes have p/wt ratio's higher than that at FTP. let me list them for you:

List done.
Read it again.

The avg pro triathlete is going to have a p/wt ratio maybe at 5.0 and a hell of a lot of pro triathletes are going to be under 5.0.

Take a 70kg cyclist and triathlete one at 5.5 and the other the triathlete at 4.7 w/kg at FTP. That's a 50w difference which is huge.

Or put it this way, at the triathletes FTP the cyclist is riding at ~85% of FTP. You do the math and figure out how long that's going to last.

You know why guys like Kienle aren't riding bikes as a pro cyclist on the highest levels of cycling? Bc they are too fucking slow when they ride their bikes fast.

Look I think it's crap the ban is 2 years, 4 years is going to make a big difference I think. That's a long time to be away from high level sport. I also know that WTC has tested AGers in the past, at least at IMH.
But to think that WTC is going to spend significant amounts of money to test Age groupers, even targeted testing, is naive. Very naive.

But they are also playing by the rules set forth and signed off by every major NGB.

Don't like it? Stop bitching and sit for the BOD of your NGB and change it.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

>do a very hard 1/2 ironman in 4;44 at the age of 50.




You just tested positive for Back Door Brag (BDB)

But they are also playing by the rules set forth and signed off by every major NGB.

Don't like it? Stop bitching and sit for the BOD of your NGB and change it.
_______

This is where I disagree. WTC plays by USAT's rules when it wants to and then sets it's own rules when it wants to and it caters to "their" needs. WTC has it both ways, they can cry foul of "it's the NGB rules" but then when they don't like said rules, they can make up their own.
ETA: I think it's likely a relationship that works. Both parties get money coming in and they both get what each wants/needs.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Where were the facts in that article? All I saw was was the opinion of two admitted dopers. Tough to get facts on the effects of EPO because nobody wants to admit to doing it and get tested before/during/after.

Had a little talking to him on the stag, then a little run into(oops) not really. Wanted to snap his neck. So pissed that he can race. Don't give me( he served his time) that is a BULLSHIT response.

I meant the serve your 2 years and you're free to play again.

Yeah WTC gets some leeway here and there on some rules like drafting etc.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Yeah for sure, is it a 4 year ban for AG'ers who pop for drugs now to be in line with the pros?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

What does 'Colom by six feet' mean?

You should have handed him a cup to piss into. That would have one-upped Sam Gyde.

Gadzooks se lleva la palma!

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Bryn Mawr Running Company

My sentiments exactly. There are WAY to many crybabies on this forum. They all point fingers as though they have never done anything wrong in their life. There is not a finger pointing poster on here that hasn't muttered the words "give me a second chance" on here. Quit the moaning and crying. Are you men or 2nd graders?

holy moly you can just fuck all the way off. He is a convicted doper

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

let it go.....your missed place anger will only hurt you.

he's with in the rules...."The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

and your point is....he's still cheating? if that is your point. Prove it...calling people names or standing on the side of the road yell "DOPER" doesn't change a thing.

You can just shut you fucking mouth. You want to test me, fine. You can test me everyday all day. I don't cheat. And I have Never took epo. Your either with him or against him, and if your with him your a piece of SHIT to.

There is no in-between. I agree 100%.

Seriously missing the forest for the trees. In fact, not even sure if the forest is visible.

Need some cheese? Doesn't matter whether you've taken EPO or haven't. My point is that you have, at some point in your life asked somebody for a second chance. Your a flat out liar if you say you haven't. Just because what you asked a second chance for wasn't a doping offense doesn't mean you're any better a person. If you say a doper doesn't deserve a second chance, you're saying no one ever does. Everyone deserves one. Where would the world be if people were never given a second chance?

wow dude seriously?

I also don't think it's a with or against him proposition. You don't have to be either.

But seriously dude.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Please dear lord let me just as good and as righteous as the Slowtwitchers in this thread

He can have a second chance at a career in accounting. Or engineering. Or whatever. Just not racing bikes (or sports medicine).

He can get a job washing bikes for a tour company.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

 
W/kg riding bla bla bla cyclists bla bla bla.....

Get it? We are not talking about cycling.
You ride at that FTP and then tell me how you run afterwards....
Physiological limiters.....
This performance is FAR out of the bell curve...

To all those who say stopping with EPO will negate it's benefits:

Who says that performance gains/adaptations by long term EPO use can not be maintained by other (illegal) means after stopping taking that (so outdated) substance...

EPO is like Penicillin nowadays. Nobody is still using that old shit.

That's your opinion. I disagree. Making someone change careers isn't giving someone a second chance. It doesn't work like that in the real world or any other sport. When was the last time you saw anyone in any other sport banned for life? You get 2 years in ours. That's a long time compared to any other sport. Once athlete has served his suspension, they should be allowed back in. If caught a second time, then issue a 10 year ban.

You can wish all you want,

How many people here do you think have been convicted of an ethical/criminal offense so great that it got them banned from their profession for two years? Or even simply fired from their job?

Sorry we're raising ethical bar too high for you.

I have your cheese right here asshole. I know I'm a better person then he is. If someone beets me I'm not a sore loser. I will tell them good job and talk to them. But not him with what he did. The world would be a better place. Drinking and driving, murder, and so on. I bet your friends with all of them. Because I'm not. It pisses me off when scumbags get away with it. Then they do it again, and again.

Just a general reply and more along the lines of devil's advocate.

So Colom's a horrid drug cheat ruining the pure sport of triathlon.

But, when we look at the results, Colom is getting relatively smoked by a lot of triathletes. So, what does that tell us about our pure sport of triathlon?

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team website: http://snappletriteam.com/

team blog: http://snappletriteam.com/?page_id=10

you obviously have missed or skipped the lesson in the lecture.

Here is where you failed/skipped in the lesson. You failed to grasp that a cyclist on that level, to even make it to that level would be one of the best triathlon cyclists in the world. Just flat out superior. Higher FTP, p/wt ratio, etc. They can ride faster at a lower % of FTP then a triathlete. Now since you seem like a smart fella, if 2 triathletes race and one rides at 85% FTP and the other at 75% FTP and the 75% rider has a higher FTP by 40-50w, who is likely to have an ability to have a faster run?

Prove it that it's out of the bell curve. When you make claims like that you should be able to substantiate with proof. Not innuendo, not rumors. but proof. What do you have? Oh, I bet it's nothing but a hunch

You can say this or that all you want, but until you can substantiate it it's nothing. NOTHING.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Hey you, on the high horse. Stfu already. You have zero proof anyone is still doing anything. And enough with your name calling. You're not a badass, quit acting like it.

But it's important to remember that VO2 is a trainable quantity. It's logical to expect that it would decline below the original level in the period after doping was stopped. This was especially true in the early era of EPO - when Ferrari was most active - before things like the 50-hematocrit limit were put in place because people would take so much EPO. Jonathan Vaughter's discusses this in an interview related to the topic here: http://velonews.competitor.com/...ncing-drugs_317590/3

That's a good discussion along these lines.

What's not clear from Ferrari's argument, though, is whether cyclists can ever regain - and surpass - their original VO2 after the de-sensitization (hyporesponsiveness) wears off. I actually had a discussion with Vaughters on twitter about this, and he presented a different argument than is quoted in that article in that discussion. That conversation is summed up here: https://twitter.com/...s/395780543083995136

So, Vaughters would seem to contradict Ferrari. And Ferrari is clearly VERY biased. Do you really expect him to say that "the effects last forever?" even if he knew that they did...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I agree. To that point I say test them all. Win an AG award once you walk off the stage get handed a cup to piss in. Testing should be more strict. I'm sure some haven't been caught, and should, but he has been.

Those that believe in second chances, where do you draw the line? Murder? Not trying to say doping is murder, you get my point. Those that draft will continue to draft, even after getting caught. We've all seen it. Why should I think this is any different?

Can you think of any first offense "in the real world" that is so grave that the offender's peers kick him out of their circle forever without a second chance? I can, because it happens a lot. In marriages, in circles of friends, and in professions that demand a high degree of public trust (teaching, day care, etc.).

P.S. Pete Rose was kicked out of baseball for life.

I never said he was a donkey.

Let me tell a story by way of analogy. One of Trevor Graham's athletes who got busted (there were a lot; I apologize for forgetting who it was) talked about the difference THG made in her training. It was the speed of recovery.

Before she started taking THG, she could typically do one maximal sprint session every 10 days. That's pretty typical (I lived with a bunch of T&F guys in college). After THG, it's was once every 3 days.

THG didn't actually make any difference in the training sessions themselves. I.e., she wasn't able to do a harder session. She could just do them more often. So, basically, she was able to train 3x as much as before she started taking drugs.

This is the classic Outside magazine article where the guy talks about what it is like to dope - http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/Drug-Test.html

Basically, you recover instantly. That's the huge benefit.

So it's not that Colom was a "donkey." It's that you get the luxury of being able to "cram" training. Imagine if you could do a year's worth of training load in 6mos? Or 4mos? That's what I'm talking about.

It's like competing against a guy who has 36 hours in a day instead of 24. That's what I'm saying.

Colom certainly is/was a phenomenal athlete in order to even make it into a position where he had to make that unfortunate choice. He was absolutely not a "donkey." The point is that - and thoroughbred racing is rife with doping, so it's a great analogy - that in spite of the fact that he obviously had/has good genes, you can't say that he would have become a thoroughbred racehorse without the training. And could he have done the training without the drugs? The evidence all points to no. Well, that's not exactly right. He could have done the training. It just would have taken a lot longer, because he'd need to recover like a normal human being does...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I can also think of at least 3 physicians i know, one who has been caught drinking at work and having alcohol in his system in the OR & another who has amputated the wrong limb, and a 3rd who was writing RX's for narcotics for personal use yet all are allowed to practice.


I guess I can think of things in the real world so grave that on your first offense you get a hand slapped

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

The problem with this is that in-comp testing is really just an IQ test. Without blood passport, random testing, whereabouts, etc, testing is really pretty meaningless. The drugs are of value for training. If you get popped for something like EPO on race day, it's because you are careless and/or stupid.

And drug tests are expensive. Having AG winners pee in a cup would be wasted money. The half-life of many of these drugs is extremely short - look at how hard it is to even catch guys with random out-of-comp testing. And I'm not sure that whereabouts & OOC testing for age group athletes is viable.

What is the answer? I have no idea. But I do think in-comp testing of age-groupers probably a waste of money.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

You're right, that happens as well. Maybe even more frequently than my examples. It's extremely unfortunate, and it makes our society worse. But it doesn't mean that's how we should act in our sport. We can raise the bar higher.

and in the outside story (and oldie but a goodie) he talks about going back to "Normal" after stopping.....

we can rail on dopers and doping.....but Colom is with-in the rules and won. Until those change all the teeth gnashing and hand waving means nothing.

Actually, the teeth gnashing and hand waving means a lot if chooses to look for sponsors. It tells sponsors that this guy attracts a lot of negative attention and maybe isn't the best one to represent their product.

If he's racing within the rules and wins cash as a pro, fine. But some of us will do our best to make sure he gets little fan support and few sponsor dollars.

Pete Rose chose his path. He didn't HAVE to get banned for life and there are way more people that find his ban outrageous than those who don't.

I know way more people who have given marriages a second chance than those who don't. Dr's get them all the time. Don't argue a point with things that have a higher percentage of giving second chances than ones that don't.

Look at the head coach of the Louisville Cardinals football team. He was definitely given one and is making good of it. Michael Vick is another. Just because someone did something bad once doesn't mean they are garbage for life.

Ever drive your car above the speed limit? Breaking a rule or law is breaking a rule or law isn't it? Does that mean we should all be banned from driving a car ever again? And don't hand me an excuse or say that's different than breaking a rule in cycling. A rule is a rule.

Yes, but I also wonder how he really quantifies "normal." It's n=1, and it's very limited at that. Like, what would have been interesting would have been to actually measure his training response to a given load before he doped and then like a year after.

The simplest analogy is the one we all see in ourselves when take a break or go into the offseason. When I got hit by a car, I went from a guy who won Ironmans to a very "normal" person who struggled to run more than 10min, just as when I first started in this sport. The difference was that I got back to being a guy who could who could crush an Ironman much faster than it took me to become that person the first time around. And I think that's the debate that there is really - for a lot of obvious reasons (both ethical and otherwise) - no clear answer on.

But, as to your larger point, I agree. Colom was busted. The rules said that he had to sit out for two years. He sat out for two years. The rules say that he can now race. And he can now race. If people don't like that, change the rules (though they have - he'd now be banned for four years instead of two, as of Jan 1, 2015). I do agree with that sentiment. As I said in the Michi Weiss thread, my "opinion" about Michi racing is that WADA says he can race, and I think it is paramount to respect and honor and uphold the rules.

To Dan Stubleski, I thought the physical confrontation on stage was inappropriate and disrespectful to a whole lot of people other than Colom. I think Sam Gyde did it right with wearing his "Dopers Suck" shirt on stage.

I think the case can be made that bans for things like EPO and steroids should be for life. That is a response to the "what's the big deal about a guy who got busted racing?" In other words, that's one major reason why - I think - we should care about this. And why it's fair that a guy like Dan is angry. BUT, I think that anger needs to be channeled in a productive way - supporting your NADO/WADA. Pushing for changes to the rules by writing to your NADO/WADA. Etc.

So, I agree with you: Colom is/was within the rules and he won. Where I may disagree with you is as to whether or not that means that the rules should be changed...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

x2

Testing amateurs just isn't feasible. It is sad and pathetic to cheat in any way�..whether it be doping, drafting, course cutting, etc. To do it as an amateur where there is really not much other than personal pride on the line?

I wouldn't support paying an extra penny for amateur testing. Hate to see cheating happen, but what can you do? Maybe if I were good I would have the same passion as Dan Stubleski, but as it is, I think amateur cheating is a grin and bear it type situation.

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team website: http://snappletriteam.com/

team blog: http://snappletriteam.com/?page_id=10

Are you also incapable of understanding the different magnitudes of traffic offenses? Do you think 5 mph over the speed limit is just as bad as 40 mph over in a school zone? Do you consider speeding an offense as great as drunk driving or vehicular homicide?

I'm sorry you don't understand shades of grey. It's a basic concept that helps one not fail at life.

He's not a pro cyclist anymore and obviously doesn't train like one with a 27min swim and a 1:19 run ... SO, i'm sure w/kilo is not what it was when he had a syringe in his ass and a testosterone patch in his arm pit. Maybe we shouldn't compare Colom the pro cyclist to Colom the Professional Age Group Triathlete

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

I understand what you are saying, but breaking a rule by going a few miles over the speed limit is different than breaking a rule that gives you a competitive advantage in an athletic competition.

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team website: http://snappletriteam.com/

team blog: http://snappletriteam.com/?page_id=10

The failure in your speeding analogy in this case is that the argument for a lifetime ban is generally predicated around emerging (though by no means definitive) research that suggests that the benefits of doping are, to a certain extent, permanent. That's not analogous to speeding in your car.

This is precisely why I think the ban for things that are only banned in-competition (and where there is no long term benefit - like stimulants) should be less than for something where the effects may be much longer lasting.

I don't subscribe to the view that doping is somehow so morally reprehensible that it deserves a lifetime ban. I subscribe to the view that a permanent, ill-gotten advantage is simply not fair to other athletes. Michael Vick's dog-fighting did not do anything to improve his passer rating. Of course, if it did, he probably would never have been banned in the first place...

I think it's very hard to analogize doping to anything other than a crime where there is a residual benefit. The best analogy for doping that i can think of is in finance. You look at something like the mortgage fraud of the part of the Aughts. If you make $50B through shady business practices and the justice department fines you $5B, well, that's a pretty clear net benefit to the bank. Doping is the same way.

So the question is, how big does the deterrent need to be in order to remove that net benefit. WADA has already decided that a 2-year ban was insufficient, and they are moving to a 4-year ban on Jan 1, 2015. The question is, really, is a 4-year ban even sufficient to remove any net benefit. And the answer is not clearly yes. It may be that only permanent banning will work, at least for some offenses. Michael Milken's crimes, but also his knowledge, residual wealth, and influence all led the SEC to decide that he required a lifetime ban from securities trading. That's the same argument that I think is applicable in certain doping cases. I think it was clear Milken could never be "just another trader" ever again. It's not clear that someone can be "just another athlete" ever again, but there are signs pointing that way (in certain cases).

THAT is the argument against second chances. IMO, anyway...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

To Dan Stubleski, I thought the physical confrontation on stage was inappropriate and disrespectful to a whole lot of people other than Colom.

______

Uh what happened?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Agreed. The fact is he has more natural cycling talent than just about any AG triathlete....in the world. You don't get to the level he did without being a huge talent. Not a lot of age group triathletes got to his level.

The fact is the best/fastest triathletes on the bike with a very few exceptions would be lucky to find themselves as a low (slow) man on the totem pole for a Pro Continental team. They just aren't that talented as cyclists.

I made a list in an earlier post of pro triathletes that have pro tour level ftp's. I'll redo it, start list now:

List over.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Maybe so, BUT, he did it in a sport that everyone was doing it and everyone is still doing it today. Who did he have a competitive edge over? In cycling EPO wasn't advantage to the everyday pro's. It was job security. It was only an advantage to those who had a legitimate shot at winning.

You can call me what you want, but I say until he's actually caught cheating in AG or Pro triathlon racing, it's not fair to judge or speculate.

the guy who wanted to race clean and found there was no place for him in the sport. The guy he had an advantage over quit cycling because he wasn't willing to dope. The guy he had an advantage over never even got to be on the starting line.

If you want to read a good article along these lines, read this by the Canadian MTBer who Ryder Hesjedahl beat out for the Olympic team: http://www.cyclingnews.com/...ls-doping-confession

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

He doped. He cheated. He's done. Bye.

Slowtwitch loves gossip...

When Colom went on stage, Dan gave him an earful during the awards presentation. I didn't hear what was said (I was close to the stage, but not that close, and there was a huge PA system going...). Once Colom got his award and stood next to Dan, Dan basically turned 90deg and faced him and was speaking directly to him (Colom did not acknowledge him and continued to face the crowd). When their AG presentation was done, Colom went to go off the stage, and Dan kind of half-blocked his way and half-body checked him. If it was a basketball game, Dan would have been called for a "moving pick."

I do not know if Colom said anything back to Dan at any point. Nothing beyond that. I thought it was unfortunate, because, honestly, Dan looked a bit the bully. I thought Sam Gyde's "Dopers Suck" statement was much more appropriate.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

 

>Look at the head coach of the Louisville Cardinals football team. He was definitely given one and is making good of it. Michael Vick is another. Just because someone did something bad once doesn't mean they are garbage for life.
>is a rule.


If Bobby Petrino and Michael Vick are your poster children, your argument is walk-jogging its way meekly toward the finish line. :)

I never said I was. I do this for fun and for the exercise. Now the fun is getting suck right out of it. I will shut my mouth and not care any more. If that is the way you want it.

>Maybe so, BUT, he did it in a sport that everyone was doing it and everyone is still doing it today.

>it's not fair to judge or speculate.

I'm not sure how you reconcile these two claims. That vast majority of pro cyclists have never tested positive for anything, and you judge/speculate that every single one of them is a doper. Then you say it's not fair to do the same to an admitted doper? (he didn't just test positive, but admitted to EPO use).

Yeah that's a bit unfortunate, emotions get the best of people at times.

*And no I wasn't asking to start gossip. Just asking for more clarification, since it was acknowledged by yourself 1st hand.*

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Aren't you speculating just a little, Jordan? Do we have a list of all these guys that quit or decided not to race in pro cycling?

Every year I see a Le' TDF thread and discussion thread on here. In those threads you'll see the same guys chatting it up that are the biggest anti doper advocates on ST, but for some reason those 3 weeks in a July are ok when we know they peloton is still juiced to the gills.

I don't advocate doping, but I do advocate against the no one deserves a second chance. A lot of those pro cyclist were young and got caught up in the EPO circus. If they join our sport to get away from the madness that is pro cycling because they want to race clean, I'm not going to take the high horse route. We have all done things we wish we could go back and do over. That's just how I am. I respect your views and where you stand,

Colom cheating in cycling gave him a competitive advantage over every single person in cycling that didn't violate the rules on performance enhancing drugs. Saying that everybody was doing it is only true if the only people who are included in "everybody" are those that were using PEDs.

That being said, I'm not speculating as to what Colom is doing or not doing now. The only point of my post was that violating a rule on a speed limit is not the same as violating a rule that is designed to create a fair competition.

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team website: http://snappletriteam.com/

team blog: http://snappletriteam.com/?page_id=10

Yes, he is.

This is a very good analogy.

Have you seen the hematocrit levels of pro cyclist? They are all right at the legal limit. You don't get to that level on training alone. Not to mention that even people like Lemond to this day say the sport will never be clean. The sport would degrees. No one wants to see the riders going slower. No one would ever watch it anymore.

Can you legitimately tell me you believe pro cycling is a clean sport now regardless of no one failing drug tests? How many tests did Hincappi/LA pass?

No one wants to see the riders going slower. No one would ever watch it anymore.

__________

I don't think anyone would even be able to tell a difference if the avg. speed dropped by 2 mph or say runners were 18s/mi slower. They would still be far and away "better" than anything mere mortals can do. The quality of racing would not suffer.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

While I agree Sam Gyde's statement was more appropriate, or at least more my style, I respect Dan for not allowing Omert� to become our sports norm.

And WTF is Colom racing AG? That's equally pathetic. I would get it if he was older, not competitive and putting a few beers back but clearly he's racing competitively.

Thankfully Lisa H didn't get a sniff of podium!

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@rhyspencer

They called the top 10 pros up on stage. Lisa H was top 10 so she went up.

I tend to agree with Jordan that a statement along the lines of Sam Gyde would be better. Don't worrry, Sam will be in Kona and I fully expect, that the entire Doper Suck clothing will take off like hot cakes just like the Realstarky clothing. Then Sam can get the ENTIRE 35-39 podium in Kona to wear the clothing...Hey I have a job and business opp for Realstarky.....license the "dopers suck" logo and trademark from Sam Gyde and sell it at Kona at Lava Java. Then use the proceeds to up the prize money for the 7th place pro who hopefully is a non doper, unlike today's women's 7th place pro, who as we know is none other than Lisa H

Your comments clearly show that you are not qualified to lecture.
As you lack basic understanding of what was actually stated.

Speculations, such as what FTP Colom may have rode at, how he got there and what that means.... apparently are all your specialty.

I do know, that if you are able to ride at a significant higher FTP (you may like that) and finish that far ahead in a Tri (compared to other ex-pro cyclists who gave Tri a try),that this fact is remarkable (given his history).
And I know a little bit (unfortunately) about how one can get to be that kind of "outlier" (you will like that) the artificial way even without EPO .

No more no less....

So, NO, I have no proof, and neither do you.

>Have you seen the hematocrit levels of pro cyclist? They are all right at the legal limit.

A pro cyclist or all pro cyclists? Just Chris Horner's since he's released his publicly. His is apparently fairly mundane, excepting some anomalies that experts argue over (which I'm not an expert). I haven't seen any other cyclists release their data. Are you aware of other publicly released data? Or do you have private access to all pro cyclists passport files? If you do, I'll just have to accept your argument as-is since you'd be undoubtedly barred from releasing details of those files without athlete consent.

Here's Horner's data. His hematocrit is right in line with the average for men. Maybe you can see other Bad Things in there. I'd have to go read a lot of Wikipedia articles before acting like an expert on the data.


>Can you legitimately tell me you believe pro cycling is a clean sport now regardless of no one failing drug tests? How many tests did Hincappi/LA pass?

I've made no claims of any sport being clean. I'm just asking for consistency in *your* argument. You can't ask us to give Colom the benefit of the doubt for possibly being a clean second-chancer while not yourself giving the benefit of doubt to athletes with pristine public records. Say Taylor Phinney and Van Garderen, for example, who you've just effectively accused of being dopers without having really provided a rational basis for arriving at that conclusion, other than participating in a sport that's been rife with doping, and may still be.

But if you took growth hormones and your feet are now US11 and you were US9 before (happened to many pro cyclists) and your hands became huge... it doesn't go away ! Now these are easy things to see if you pay attention, harder to see is how much muscles the "so called athlete" which I would call the "bastard" developped ??? It's not just the hands and feet, these are just easier to spot, but it is true for the muscles too !

And then there is of course all the training and adaptation that wouldn't have been possible without doping !

Jordan pointed you to a study that shows long term effect of doping, I've seen another I'll find the reference and post again later today but I'm sure if scientists look they will find more evidence.

And the worst part of 2 years ban is : like you said doping is mostly used for training, now an athlete who takes two years but from day 1 knows he will come back (sometimes they made enough money with doping to not had to work during the 2 years ban !) can train out of the radar ! And often they come back "clean" and miraculously "stronger" all at the same time ahahah !
I remember reading somewhere Michie Weiss was still controlled during his ban, not sure if this is correct ? If that's the case, he was probably one of the very very few. Most of the guys have no licence during the ban period, so no reason to be controlled nor localized, they can have an easy life of strong doping and hard training without any risk. Then they can come back with like you said maybe the same as 6 years or 8 years of training, nice :-) .

Looking forward to the start of the 4 years bans and hopefully more and more lifetime bans !

Pretty sure that testing continues during a ban.

Well, Andrew Wakefield is one...

please see previous answer for my response . also, probably not as many as one would think

I was a big fan of yours.. Was...

I respect your disdain for Colom, but you have handled yourself poorly, and said some stupid things to him, and here on this post.

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Austin Hardy -

There is a problem with your argument about pro tour cyclists all having 6w/kg ftp and therefore being better athletes. It's best demonstrated with a list of cyclists who got a ftp of 6w/kg without doping:

list over.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Wow, tough crowd...

For the guys at the pointy end of the AG race, there is a lot of emotion and effort on the line, so I ask, haven't you ever been in the heat of the moment and reacted strongly before?
Well, I sure have.

Dan is someone I respect greatly in this sport and will continue to do so.

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Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!

Whether you know Dan or not, you have to appreciate his passion and dedication to laying it down like he does. I challenge that very few of us have ever been in the position to be called the best, only to be beaten by a character with a questionable past.

I agree 100% that Dan needs to channel his energy in to his final weeks of preparation for Kona. Waging a war of words here against the ST Army will do little good. Let your legs do the talking in October.

Colom could find out that karma can be a bitch on the Big Island. Make sure you're doing everything you can to end up on the right side of it.

Here is the AG awards video.

https://m.facebook.com/...p;id=193643957386948

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project

Perhaps we have a different definition of "moment"..

I learned a very valuable lesson from Herm Edwards, its called "DON'T HIT SEND"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H27l-de9OjI

I would opine that a pre planned confrontation on the podium, and ST posts more than 8 hours after the event are a little beyond the "heat of the moment"

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Austin Hardy -

Agree.

Positive energy for Kona only at this stage is the only solution from here on in.

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Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!

I would agree.....

Pretty sure I never said all cyclists will be at 6 or greater w/kg.

But here is something that would benefit a lot of people on this thread and on ST in general.

http://sportsscientists.com/.

I'd suggest that many people on this thread could spend a few hours on there and benefit greatly in their knowledge of cycling performance in general. They might be able to grasp how good of a cyclist colom had to be in order to get to the level where he could be doped. The number of triathletes in the world capable of that can be counted on both hands and you can still hold a coffee cup.

Couple of points to think about as well in the context of performance:

I know several 5.4-5.6 w/kg at FTP guys that rode for the equivalent of Domestic Elite teams (think Stanz's No Tubes or KHS/Maxxis) or on Continental teams think (Optum or 5hr Energy or Jelly Belly). All really good cyclist and if they showed up at the local group ride in most areas of the country, triathletes would be left crying on the side of the road while they disappeared up the road.
But those guys at 5.45-.65 didn't have enough horsepower to go higher to say a United Healthcare team, and a lot of the guys on the UHC level aren't going to be able to produce the horsepower to get to the next level no matter how much they train.

Using the 70kg rider I mentioned earlier most triathletes at 300w for FTP are going to be 100w below a guy like colom..even now. And most triathletes aren't at 300w for an FTP.

take a guy like Chris Lieto. Super awesome triathlete at riding his bike, mediocre domestic pro cyclist with zero hope of ever making a team like UHC. Zero.

There is a reason why some really, really awesomely fast riding triathletes failed at bike racing when they tried it as a pro, World Champion triathletes even like Spencer Smith. Ivan Rana comes to mind as a guy who lasted a year in pro cycling before being told to stick with triathlon.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
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Wait, Andrew Wakefield was a ST forum member? Did he claim vaccinations caused poor swim performance? Did we believe him?

Why would he have to be better than all but the very best few triathlete cyclists before he was at a level where he could be doped? We have Cat 3 cyclists here in New York who are injecting EPO. I am sure there are guys that dope to get to domestic elite or conti teams and just don't have the legs to get any further, even on the juice. I'm not saying Colom does not have talent as a cyclist, but I am saying he doped before. He just put down the best overall bike split at a 70.3 worlds with probably the most talented field ever, beating guys that Lance even lost to. It is reasonable to not give this guy the benefit of the doubt, and it is reasonable to call him out as a doper, because it was proven already. As far as I know, he has never even made a statement of apology, or in support of clean sport or anything. Just races amateur triathlon after getting the boot from cycling, and makes no statements whatsoever. Doesn't even have a facebook or twitter acct that I know of.

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Ed O'Malley
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Have you ever had a spot on the podium affected by a cheater? Stood there and had to watch him/her celebrate? I haven't so can't really comment what I would do, but it would be hard to stand there and do nothing. I agree this could have been handled much better while probably getting his point across a little better (a la the Dopers Suck shirt), but to judge him by it is wrong. Yes he did say he would say something on the podium, which I see nothing wrong with, the physical part (which is where it went to far in my mind) was probably more impromptu after getting fired up "in the moment"

There are many many lawyers who get disbarred every year for ethical offenses. Many doctors every year lose their license for ethical offenses. Drivers, pilots, general contractors. In certain professions, there are offenses that are minor enough to allow a punishment that falls short of a lifetime ban from practicing their trade and there are offenses so severe (Often they are the ones that demonstrate intent to harm others for your own benefit) that the person has forfeited their right to participate in that activity or profession. In endurance sports, there is a good argument that doping EPO or similar products is one of those offenses.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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He buried everyone else? /pink

It's too bad that Colom is beating up on AG and not fighting it out with the pros. He's clearly at that level. I don't see the sport in that. It's kind of like shooting fish in a barrel. I wonder if there's a legal reason he hasn't gone pro. He knows how to train and do all the things necessary to be at the top. If he were to still be doping, then I could see that as being a cause, but what'd he gain at that point? Is he getting money from sponsors back home for winning THE AG race?

As for the tshirt idea, Dev, maybe do what Ironman does with their MDOT on the back of the shirt...Include all the names in tiny print to make up a bigger picture...maybe like a syringe with a big NO circle around it.

I wish the video did not cut out the announcement of the names of the 35-39 podium (where I would have liked to hear the crowds reactions to each name) and also the later alleged physical confrontation. It looks like Dan is just talking Colom's ear off and Colom is trying not to react. If you did not know Colom's history, I don't think you'd even notice. At any rate, the video does not show anything inappropriate to my mind, and if Colom got barraged by unwelcoming comments from his fellow podium athlete, well he asked for it.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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I'm sure its been said in this thread, or another one. But if they are going to follow the WADA anti-doping penalties, I really wish they would adapt the sport specific rules to be more like wearing a wetsuit above 76.1 degrees.

"You've been convicted of doping and served your penalty? Ok, come race. But you're not eligible for AG awards or Kona slots.

What, you don't want to race anymore? Ok, next (wo)man up."

Lance swam and ran much faster. Drilling the bike wasn't his only option. My assumption would be that he probably held back more than Colom does in terms of % of FTP.

Even so, colom was never anywhere close to as good a cyclist as lance was. And a 1:19 on that course is pretty solid. I doubt he sacrificed his run by overbiking.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

I have, I just didn't know it at the time. 2011 70.3 WC in Vegas I was 4th in M40-44, Laurant Jalbert was 3rd. I didn't know who he was until the awards and then didn't know he was tainted a few weeks later when it came up here on ST. So there is precedent for this.

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They called the top 10 pros up on stage. Lisa H was top 10 so she went up
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And what did her peers do when she was called on stage? A serious question, what did they do? I venture to guess one of three things:

1. nothing
2. tweeted their disgust
3. at most, refused to shake hand

what Dan did and what Sam did, duly noting Sam's approach is more my personal style, is far more in line with what we NEED to do; otherwise cycling culture of Omerta creeps in.

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@rhyspencer

With a bigger talent pool and only training one sport it's obvious that the differences in performance will be quite big. I have however competed against a few pro tour riders, some of whom have won or been on the podium at some of the biggest races on the calendar, and I actually don't think all pro tour riders are above 5.8w/kg for an hour. Even if they were we have seen in almost all cases that the difference comes down quite a bit when they start to train for 2 other sports. I think Colom stands out a bit in that regard because at least in some races last year it seemed like he lost a bit less of his cycling capacity compared to some of the others who have tried.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Four years ago, I dared suggest that the economics of pro-cycling made it extremely unlikely that Lance was completely innocent.
This provoked an angry clamor of Slowtwitch responses. (And no support.)
"How dare I suggest such a thing!!!"

How many passionate Colom haters, were once Lance worshippers?

Yes- This discussion is worth having.
Yes- Coloms past is worth noting when considering his current performances. (2nd and 3rd might especially want to know.)

Yet where does all the vitriol come from?

Who amongst us would behave differently, if placed in Coloms shoes?
If you are certain "you would never do such a thing," I am certain you cannot be trusted. You are actually much more likely than the rest of us to cheat.
Integretity is built on honesty and realism.
Not because we were born more moral than these lesser people.

This does not argue against a robust anti-drug policy.
Quite the contrary. Since we could all be cheaters, if put in the wrong wrong context, it is especially important that steps be taken to prevent this from happening.


This has little to do with Colom, however.

I agree. WTC already makes you "validate" to be eligible to race it's championship. Why not make having a clean record be part of being valid? I'm all for it.

It was already proven that he cheated, hence he is not a pro cyclist anymore. What more proof do you need?

Yes I get it he cheated as a pro-cyclist, but what proof is there he's cheating now......none.

He's racing within the rules, like it or not.

Well done. I suspect Slowman in particular enjoyed reading that.

THIS!!

Oh, he may have killed someone, but is he still killing someone now?
It was his active choice to dope, and yes, he got better by using it.
If I had done athletics or any form of training as a kid, I would be much faster now, but I was a couch potatoe.
If I had used doping 4 years ago, I would be faster now (because I would have been able to handle more training), but I didn't.
Training = doping and he just took an illegal dose.

Triathlon should not be the 'second chance'-sport. And Dan's reaction on stage is an emotional one. Maybe not the perfect way, but who are we to judge? Better this way than doing nothing at all.

Javier Gomez has pro tour FTP so I guess the brownlees have it too

You should probably edit this so that pyf's quote doesn't appear to have been said by Rappstar.

It's not like he started from scratch when he stopped doping.

I find it difficult to believe that people without a personal connection to the ex-dopers are fine with having deliberate frauds in our sport. They can have a 'second chance' in any other part of their lives, but they gave up their right to participate in endurance sports.

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That is a pretty high level of perfection you've set for yourself :) I'm only human so my bar is set a little lower.

It has nothing to do with perfection. It has to do with not cheating.

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Twitter | Kancman | Blog

Running and swimming require a specific skill set in terms of bio-mechanics. You can't just muscle your way through running or the water. Compared to his bike... his swim sucks....really bad.... and his run isn't all that great either for a smaller, leaner guy. My run economy is probably not far off his, and I guarantee that my swim efficiency must be better.... I just don't have nearly his motor. Sorry, but a 1:19 off a 2:03 is pathetic. You might argue he overbiked, but I think his skill set just isn't there.

If his run and swim skills matched his engine, he would have the same splits as Gomez.

Compare his performance to Lionel Sanders. Clearly weak on swim technique, but his run economy is excellent and matches his motor on the bike. Gomez goes one step farther and is an even better runner compared to his bike.

I'm sure his power is lower than when he was a cyclist, since he now has to swim & bike and any pro cyclist would make a lot less power if they had to run 5-6 days a week. Comparing a triathlete to a pro cyclist is never fair, because they bike more. Just liek you can;t compare Pott's swim ability to Olympic swimmers. He'd get killed even though years ago he was close to their ability.

Considering he wasn't a top top rider or TT specialist, I still find it very suspect.

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