Need some cheese? Doesn't matter whether you've taken EPO or haven't. My point is that you have, at some point in your life asked somebody for a second chance. Your a flat out liar if you say you haven't. Just because what you asked a second chance for wasn't a doping offense doesn't mean you're any better a person. If you say a doper doesn't deserve a second chance, you're saying no one ever does. Everyone deserves one. Where would the world be if people were never given a second chance?

wow dude seriously?

I also don't think it's a with or against him proposition. You don't have to be either.

But seriously dude.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Please dear lord let me just as good and as righteous as the Slowtwitchers in this thread

He can have a second chance at a career in accounting. Or engineering. Or whatever. Just not racing bikes (or sports medicine).

He can get a job washing bikes for a tour company.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

 
W/kg riding bla bla bla cyclists bla bla bla.....

Get it? We are not talking about cycling.
You ride at that FTP and then tell me how you run afterwards....
Physiological limiters.....
This performance is FAR out of the bell curve...

To all those who say stopping with EPO will negate it's benefits:

Who says that performance gains/adaptations by long term EPO use can not be maintained by other (illegal) means after stopping taking that (so outdated) substance...

EPO is like Penicillin nowadays. Nobody is still using that old shit.

That's your opinion. I disagree. Making someone change careers isn't giving someone a second chance. It doesn't work like that in the real world or any other sport. When was the last time you saw anyone in any other sport banned for life? You get 2 years in ours. That's a long time compared to any other sport. Once athlete has served his suspension, they should be allowed back in. If caught a second time, then issue a 10 year ban.

You can wish all you want,

How many people here do you think have been convicted of an ethical/criminal offense so great that it got them banned from their profession for two years? Or even simply fired from their job?

Sorry we're raising ethical bar too high for you.

I have your cheese right here asshole. I know I'm a better person then he is. If someone beets me I'm not a sore loser. I will tell them good job and talk to them. But not him with what he did. The world would be a better place. Drinking and driving, murder, and so on. I bet your friends with all of them. Because I'm not. It pisses me off when scumbags get away with it. Then they do it again, and again.

Just a general reply and more along the lines of devil's advocate.

So Colom's a horrid drug cheat ruining the pure sport of triathlon.

But, when we look at the results, Colom is getting relatively smoked by a lot of triathletes. So, what does that tell us about our pure sport of triathlon?

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team website: http://snappletriteam.com/

team blog: http://snappletriteam.com/?page_id=10

you obviously have missed or skipped the lesson in the lecture.

Here is where you failed/skipped in the lesson. You failed to grasp that a cyclist on that level, to even make it to that level would be one of the best triathlon cyclists in the world. Just flat out superior. Higher FTP, p/wt ratio, etc. They can ride faster at a lower % of FTP then a triathlete. Now since you seem like a smart fella, if 2 triathletes race and one rides at 85% FTP and the other at 75% FTP and the 75% rider has a higher FTP by 40-50w, who is likely to have an ability to have a faster run?

Prove it that it's out of the bell curve. When you make claims like that you should be able to substantiate with proof. Not innuendo, not rumors. but proof. What do you have? Oh, I bet it's nothing but a hunch

You can say this or that all you want, but until you can substantiate it it's nothing. NOTHING.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Hey you, on the high horse. Stfu already. You have zero proof anyone is still doing anything. And enough with your name calling. You're not a badass, quit acting like it.

But it's important to remember that VO2 is a trainable quantity. It's logical to expect that it would decline below the original level in the period after doping was stopped. This was especially true in the early era of EPO - when Ferrari was most active - before things like the 50-hematocrit limit were put in place because people would take so much EPO. Jonathan Vaughter's discusses this in an interview related to the topic here: http://velonews.competitor.com/...ncing-drugs_317590/3

That's a good discussion along these lines.

What's not clear from Ferrari's argument, though, is whether cyclists can ever regain - and surpass - their original VO2 after the de-sensitization (hyporesponsiveness) wears off. I actually had a discussion with Vaughters on twitter about this, and he presented a different argument than is quoted in that article in that discussion. That conversation is summed up here: https://twitter.com/...s/395780543083995136

So, Vaughters would seem to contradict Ferrari. And Ferrari is clearly VERY biased. Do you really expect him to say that "the effects last forever?" even if he knew that they did...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I agree. To that point I say test them all. Win an AG award once you walk off the stage get handed a cup to piss in. Testing should be more strict. I'm sure some haven't been caught, and should, but he has been.

Those that believe in second chances, where do you draw the line? Murder? Not trying to say doping is murder, you get my point. Those that draft will continue to draft, even after getting caught. We've all seen it. Why should I think this is any different?

Can you think of any first offense "in the real world" that is so grave that the offender's peers kick him out of their circle forever without a second chance? I can, because it happens a lot. In marriages, in circles of friends, and in professions that demand a high degree of public trust (teaching, day care, etc.).

P.S. Pete Rose was kicked out of baseball for life.

I never said he was a donkey.

Let me tell a story by way of analogy. One of Trevor Graham's athletes who got busted (there were a lot; I apologize for forgetting who it was) talked about the difference THG made in her training. It was the speed of recovery.

Before she started taking THG, she could typically do one maximal sprint session every 10 days. That's pretty typical (I lived with a bunch of T&F guys in college). After THG, it's was once every 3 days.

THG didn't actually make any difference in the training sessions themselves. I.e., she wasn't able to do a harder session. She could just do them more often. So, basically, she was able to train 3x as much as before she started taking drugs.

This is the classic Outside magazine article where the guy talks about what it is like to dope - http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/Drug-Test.html

Basically, you recover instantly. That's the huge benefit.

So it's not that Colom was a "donkey." It's that you get the luxury of being able to "cram" training. Imagine if you could do a year's worth of training load in 6mos? Or 4mos? That's what I'm talking about.

It's like competing against a guy who has 36 hours in a day instead of 24. That's what I'm saying.

Colom certainly is/was a phenomenal athlete in order to even make it into a position where he had to make that unfortunate choice. He was absolutely not a "donkey." The point is that - and thoroughbred racing is rife with doping, so it's a great analogy - that in spite of the fact that he obviously had/has good genes, you can't say that he would have become a thoroughbred racehorse without the training. And could he have done the training without the drugs? The evidence all points to no. Well, that's not exactly right. He could have done the training. It just would have taken a lot longer, because he'd need to recover like a normal human being does...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I can also think of at least 3 physicians i know, one who has been caught drinking at work and having alcohol in his system in the OR & another who has amputated the wrong limb, and a 3rd who was writing RX's for narcotics for personal use yet all are allowed to practice.


I guess I can think of things in the real world so grave that on your first offense you get a hand slapped

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

The problem with this is that in-comp testing is really just an IQ test. Without blood passport, random testing, whereabouts, etc, testing is really pretty meaningless. The drugs are of value for training. If you get popped for something like EPO on race day, it's because you are careless and/or stupid.

And drug tests are expensive. Having AG winners pee in a cup would be wasted money. The half-life of many of these drugs is extremely short - look at how hard it is to even catch guys with random out-of-comp testing. And I'm not sure that whereabouts & OOC testing for age group athletes is viable.

What is the answer? I have no idea. But I do think in-comp testing of age-groupers probably a waste of money.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

You're right, that happens as well. Maybe even more frequently than my examples. It's extremely unfortunate, and it makes our society worse. But it doesn't mean that's how we should act in our sport. We can raise the bar higher.

and in the outside story (and oldie but a goodie) he talks about going back to "Normal" after stopping.....

we can rail on dopers and doping.....but Colom is with-in the rules and won. Until those change all the teeth gnashing and hand waving means nothing.

Actually, the teeth gnashing and hand waving means a lot if chooses to look for sponsors. It tells sponsors that this guy attracts a lot of negative attention and maybe isn't the best one to represent their product.

If he's racing within the rules and wins cash as a pro, fine. But some of us will do our best to make sure he gets little fan support and few sponsor dollars.

Pete Rose chose his path. He didn't HAVE to get banned for life and there are way more people that find his ban outrageous than those who don't.

I know way more people who have given marriages a second chance than those who don't. Dr's get them all the time. Don't argue a point with things that have a higher percentage of giving second chances than ones that don't.

Look at the head coach of the Louisville Cardinals football team. He was definitely given one and is making good of it. Michael Vick is another. Just because someone did something bad once doesn't mean they are garbage for life.

Ever drive your car above the speed limit? Breaking a rule or law is breaking a rule or law isn't it? Does that mean we should all be banned from driving a car ever again? And don't hand me an excuse or say that's different than breaking a rule in cycling. A rule is a rule.

Yes, but I also wonder how he really quantifies "normal." It's n=1, and it's very limited at that. Like, what would have been interesting would have been to actually measure his training response to a given load before he doped and then like a year after.

The simplest analogy is the one we all see in ourselves when take a break or go into the offseason. When I got hit by a car, I went from a guy who won Ironmans to a very "normal" person who struggled to run more than 10min, just as when I first started in this sport. The difference was that I got back to being a guy who could who could crush an Ironman much faster than it took me to become that person the first time around. And I think that's the debate that there is really - for a lot of obvious reasons (both ethical and otherwise) - no clear answer on.

But, as to your larger point, I agree. Colom was busted. The rules said that he had to sit out for two years. He sat out for two years. The rules say that he can now race. And he can now race. If people don't like that, change the rules (though they have - he'd now be banned for four years instead of two, as of Jan 1, 2015). I do agree with that sentiment. As I said in the Michi Weiss thread, my "opinion" about Michi racing is that WADA says he can race, and I think it is paramount to respect and honor and uphold the rules.

To Dan Stubleski, I thought the physical confrontation on stage was inappropriate and disrespectful to a whole lot of people other than Colom. I think Sam Gyde did it right with wearing his "Dopers Suck" shirt on stage.

I think the case can be made that bans for things like EPO and steroids should be for life. That is a response to the "what's the big deal about a guy who got busted racing?" In other words, that's one major reason why - I think - we should care about this. And why it's fair that a guy like Dan is angry. BUT, I think that anger needs to be channeled in a productive way - supporting your NADO/WADA. Pushing for changes to the rules by writing to your NADO/WADA. Etc.

So, I agree with you: Colom is/was within the rules and he won. Where I may disagree with you is as to whether or not that means that the rules should be changed...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

x2

Testing amateurs just isn't feasible. It is sad and pathetic to cheat in any way…..whether it be doping, drafting, course cutting, etc. To do it as an amateur where there is really not much other than personal pride on the line?

I wouldn't support paying an extra penny for amateur testing. Hate to see cheating happen, but what can you do? Maybe if I were good I would have the same passion as Dan Stubleski, but as it is, I think amateur cheating is a grin and bear it type situation.

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team website: http://snappletriteam.com/

team blog: http://snappletriteam.com/?page_id=10