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help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation.....
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I am just coming back from 2yrs triathlon hiatus and I still have the same aspiration to go fast as when I stopped 2years ago.
My life now is more hectic. kids, full time job and a business but im still finding a little pocket of opportunities to train even an hour or 2 a day. I want to maximize those hours instead of just training aimlessly and hope I would gain something from it. I do believe I am very consistent athlete and knows how to prioritize my day. The problem is I am in the loosing battle with my recovery. I work the night shift and I cannot get enough sleep during the day. I sleep for 3hrs and im done. I do take naps when I can that can go from 1hr to 3hrs long. This what Ive done before and finished 11:13 at IMLP . I want to crack 11hrs at IMFL this year but I do believe that my recovery is impending my performance.

Can you share your experience if youve cracked the 11hrs mark and in the similar situation

or

is it better to invest in a coach to help me figure things out. Realistically right now I may only have 12hrs to train but Ive seen and heard people train less and have good results.

Thanks ST
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [Light_Kira] [ In reply to ]
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no prob breaking 11 on fewer hours as long as you stay smart and avoid self sabotage.

in your case, lifestyle is as big of a deal as the training. U are going to have to find a way to be healthier with that sleep. It can be done with 'long naps', sure, but it leaves you very little room for error in all the other aspects of building for an IM. That's something you are going to have to figure out on your own.

Nail the nutrition. And, we aren't talking about race day. If you eat healthy, high nutrient stuff, you will handle these stressors much better. If you slack, make excuses, etc, you have only yourself to blame for making this harder on yourself.

Trying to minimize other foreseeable sabotaging stressors is a plus, also. Things come up, things have to get taken care of. But, taking on big projects by choice will zap your energy, your mojo, and shoot that cortisol out the roof. Result being that the IM thing becomes a job that will do it's best to break you.

Those ^^^ are THE foundation points for being able to have a solid day at an IM on minimal'ish hours of training.

In regards to the training, your consistency as a athlete is gonna be what gets you thru it. Frequency (ie, consistency) trumps Intensity which, IMO, trumps Huge Days.

Everyone will tell you that you will have to do High Intensity work to make up for the low volume. This is pretty true but you have to be careful, honest with thy self, about not doing high intensity every workout and drilling yourself into the ground. Your lack of regular sleep will set you up to not handle tons of high intensity, I'm guessing/betting. But, strategic/purposeful well thought out drips of high intensity spread out through a week, with the other workouts in between serving as technique/practice/ez enough that it doesn't cost you anything should be something your body can handle. Basically, a couple of key workouts throughout the week and fill in the rest with easier but purposeful 'practice'. That could keep you from going so hard every day, every workout. This approach takes patience and ton of trust that you will be ready just in a knick of time for IMFL! Become very good at recognizing when you need a couple of days to just rest. That is very individual and circumstantial. Training plans won't account for that. A good coach might catch it but you know you better than anyone else.

And, relax about the whole thing. It's a game, not a job. You signed up to do it. Nobody made you! If you did 11:13 at LP then you will break 11 at FL as long as you don't get greedy (swim can be a bit tougher, bike flat but windy some years, run is just a grind) and pace yourself for being strong at the end.

Good luck on the journey.

Train away, be safe, have fun!




"Outwork your talent." Kevin McHale
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [Light_Kira] [ In reply to ]
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Light_Kira wrote:
I am just coming back from 2yrs triathlon hiatus and I still have the same aspiration to go fast as when I stopped 2years ago.
My life now is more hectic. kids, full time job and a business but im still finding a little pocket of opportunities to train even an hour or 2 a day. I want to maximize those hours instead of just training aimlessly and hope I would gain something from it. I do believe I am very consistent athlete and knows how to prioritize my day. The problem is I am in the loosing battle with my recovery. I work the night shift and I cannot get enough sleep during the day. I sleep for 3hrs and im done. I do take naps when I can that can go from 1hr to 3hrs long. This what Ive done before and finished 11:13 at IMLP . I want to crack 11hrs at IMFL this year but I do believe that my recovery is impending my performance.

Can you share your experience if youve cracked the 11hrs mark and in the similar situation

or

is it better to invest in a coach to help me figure things out. Realistically right now I may only have 12hrs to train but Ive seen and heard people train less and have good results.

Thanks ST

It sounds like a coach should be able to help you here. Figuring this out on your own is going to be hard, especially given your sleep challenges. That said if you have an actual 12hrs/week to train you can accomplish a lot. Plenty of people do well at IM on that volume. You might not be KQing with that volume but pulling off sub-11 on a course like IMFL should certainly be possible. You just need to keep yourself healthy.
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [Light_Kira] [ In reply to ]
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With those limitations and or situational stresses why not drop race distance as your goal or the time goal? While a coach is going to help you it sounds to me like basic human needs aren’t going to be met to begin with. Add on top of that training and to me that’s a lot for not much sleep a day (4-6hrs a day and likely closer to 4 hrs a day)?

Just sounds like life isn’t matching up so whatever you do id make sure you set a goal that is fair for your circumstances. I don’t think setting an PR goal on top of getting not proper recovery is a very sound or logical goal. That’s not how you perform to your peak ability so I’d say you should match your goal/expectations with your training/life reality.

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Feb 25, 19 6:32
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [Light_Kira] [ In reply to ]
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Probably your first objective should be to sleep and rest enough from your current life.

When this solved, probably by sleeping 7h per day in a decent level of stress, then you could consider adding other objectives.

May be you feel the need to come back to this IM objective in order to have some more satisfaction in your life, something which is "really you", or "time for you". This is great you have this willingness. But as said above, you need to solve the sleep/rest issue first.

Then sure you can find a way to follow this IM objective. Or 5h IM70.3 objective ?
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [Light_Kira] [ In reply to ]
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Sub 11 on 12 hours training per week is very doable given your previous times. Suspect you're right though in terms of how compromised your training is due to recovery.

Not really answering your question but have you done everything that you can to create an optimal sleeping environment? Blackout blinds and/or mask, top quality ear plugs, white noise, etc?
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [morpheus] [ In reply to ]
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no prob breaking 11 on fewer hours as long as you stay smart and avoid self sabotage

———

Does not getting enough sleep in the OP’s info
not qualify as self sabotage and only doing 1-2 hrs a day max. I mean at some point your training demands has to meet some race demands and under these circumstances on top of a 2 year break nothing about the OP’s plan dictates 11hr success. There’s a reality when you have those type of limitations putting on yourself.

ETA: of course “goals” can be the reason you simply get out and do it every day and the
motivation to actually try something but I just think with all the background info he’s provided
and thus major limitations any time goal should go out the window. This should simply be about doing the best he can with his limitations But if this goal is the only real thing that gets him out to do it fair. But his training reality is not going to meet race reality imo on 3 hrs sleep max per day on 1 setting and then saying you can only train 1-2 hrs max.

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Feb 25, 19 7:18
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [Light_Kira] [ In reply to ]
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Consider your base as well.

Are you coming back from scratch after 2 years? Couch to sub 11 hr IM?

All about that bike... and not just killing yourself on it with speed work.

It can be done, but as others have alluded to, very small room for error.

You can space the hard stuff out to reduce recovery time, but with only 12 hours a week and 2 hours a day (no way to get 1 long ride a weekend in?), it's a complicated puzzle.

Ryan
http://www.SetThePaceTriathlon.com
http://www.TriathlonTrainingDaddy.com
Sample 70.3/140.6 Training Plans
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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It certainly does qualify as self sabotage. Based on the little bit of info offered up, that sleep thing has to be the #1 hurdle. Very thin ice to balance being a parent, a work horse, and a someone who likes to train a lot all on little and inconsistent sleep.

It 'can' be done. For a while, right? Most of us have done something like this at some point.... until we wised up! It's just a harsh reality and not healthy at all.

Also, I 100% agree with your comments of racing a distance that fits the amount of time you, realistically, have to work with. It took me many years of stubbornness to make it to this other side where I accepted this perspective and I've been happier and healthier for it ever since! But, not everyone is ready for that eye opening enlightenment and they are just looking for the tips/tricks of the trade that will get them through their grind.




"Outwork your talent." Kevin McHale
Last edited by: morpheus: Feb 26, 19 5:17
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [Light_Kira] [ In reply to ]
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Light_Kira wrote:
I am just coming back from 2yrs triathlon hiatus and I still have the same aspiration to go fast as when I stopped 2years ago.
My life now is more hectic. kids, full time job and a business but im still finding a little pocket of opportunities to train even an hour or 2 a day. I want to maximize those hours instead of just training aimlessly and hope I would gain something from it. I do believe I am very consistent athlete and knows how to prioritize my day. The problem is I am in the loosing battle with my recovery. I work the night shift and I cannot get enough sleep during the day. I sleep for 3hrs and im done. I do take naps when I can that can go from 1hr to 3hrs long. This what Ive done before and finished 11:13 at IMLP . I want to crack 11hrs at IMFL this year but I do believe that my recovery is impending my performance.

Can you share your experience if youve cracked the 11hrs mark and in the similar situation

or

is it better to invest in a coach to help me figure things out. Realistically right now I may only have 12hrs to train but Ive seen and heard people train less and have good results.

Thanks ST


What I will say is that:

11hours isn't a 'magic barrier' - don't build yourself up to fail because of psychological pressure
12 hours a week is plenty to have a good race. Lots of people do sub 10 on 12hours a week. Your genes will define your potential.
If you know how to train then go do it, if you don't, get a coach.
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [morpheus] [ In reply to ]
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It took me many years of stubbornness to make it to this other side where I accepted this perspective and I've been happier and healthier for it ever since!

---------

All athletes have to go through that process of learning etc and as I said if this is the *only* thing you can do to motivate and/or live a healthy lifestyle it's fair enough but a total face palm. Granted athletes can do anything they want to do, but it makes no sense to train for an IM on 2 hours a day limitations. Your not evening coming close to proper race demands let alone an PR performance. Now if you can change that availability, that all changes but if your telling me you have 2 hour daily training window + 3 hour "sleep"recovery the IM distance simply isn't what you should be racing. But again IM is the seemingly end all be all for most athletes and most especially ST demographics, and again athletes are going to do what athletes are going to do.

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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Lots of people do sub 10 on 12hours a week.

----

Bullfuckingshit

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Lots of people do sub 10 on 12hours a week.

----

Bullfuckingshit

Are you calling me a liar?

I know of several. Therefore there must be a load more.
I daresay many faster athletes than that who train harder could still be sub 10 on 12 hours a week.
12 hours a week, 50 weeks of the year, is a good training load.
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [Light_Kira] [ In reply to ]
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Perhaps I am piling on . . . 11 hr IM is very doable. 11:13 at LP = sub 11 at FL. The BIG problem you have is sleep, not for IM but for life. It simply is NOT sustainable to have a healthy life with that little sleep. You say " knows how to prioritize my day." , but that really is not an accurate honest perspective. Something needs to change for you, your family, and your future.

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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I think it depends on what you are saying. If you are saying someone "averages" 12 hours of training vs someone who ONLY has a max of 12 hours, those are 2 different completely scenarios. Because if you take an average over the year and get 12, that means when you do a 10 hour week, you have to then do a 14 hour week to equal the average. And I'm guessing *most* will do more than 12 hours for IM build. And being able to train 5 weeks in a year of 16-18 hours while having the same opposite "easier" weeks, then you will be in a much better position than if you only had 12 hours a week and no more. Because in that scenario no way in hell that athlete will average 12 hours for 50 weeks. Life/work/family will get in the way and then suddenly that 12 becomes 11.4 "average", etc. And then lack of rest means you take a day off here and there and then suddenly that "12 hr max week" becomes a true average of 10.8hrs.

So I think if you say people "average" 12 hours for a year it's a huge different scenario than saying someone only has a max of 12 hours. One can and almost assuredly has larger weeks than 12, and the other will only get 12 hours. So as I said if that can be changed, we are talking something different. But if we are saying athlete only gets 1-2 hrs max a day (12 hr week) then that's going to limit the athlete who doesn't recover well and who is also coming off a 2 year "hiatus".

ETA: So no I never called you a liar. I just called your statement that "lots" do sub 10 on 12 hours of training BS. But then again if your using the average, then I think you have to contend that they also included weeks over 12hrs and thus sorta proves my point that only having 12 hours a week max, no way in hell lots of athletes will go sub 10. But if your saying that the entire year including offseason/preseason/race block "averages" 12 then I'll say that also includes weeks above 12 and thus kinda invalidates your actual statement.

I'd like to see a person's training volume who was able to do 12 hours a week for an year. I'd be very curious that they actually able to execute that to even within 20 mins avg to 12 hours.

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Feb 26, 19 7:33
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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1.5hrs a day, 4days a week
4hr long ride day
2hr long run day

That is good consistent training. If you are fit enough to handle that then a few months of that, and a couple of weeks over that in the peak load phase - maybe only another 2hours more - and you’ll have a good race. If you are talented that will mean sub 10hrs.

Obviously not if you haven’t done any exercise for 5years and are10kg overweight. But then you probably couldn’t do one week of 12hours training
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [tuckandgo] [ In reply to ]
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That is good consistent training. If you are fit enough to handle that then a few months of that, and a couple of weeks over that in the peak load phase - maybe only another 2hours more - and you’ll have a good race. If you are talented that will mean sub 10hrs.

----

Right, but your doing exactly what I suggested. Almost every "I trained 12 hours a week" athlete did peak load hours more than 12 hours. And I can almost gurantee everyone did more than 2 hours in a training day, of which the OP has suggested he's bound do 1-2 hours max a day.


So all the info you were giving him isn't all that applicable in this instance. Cus if your saying they get in a 4 hour ride in peak hours due to time constraints that's still double the longest ride he'll be able to get.


So like I said an athlete saying this is his limitations and this is his goal....the 2 don't match at all. That's the reality of it, but again athletes are going to do whatever athletes want to do and if this is more just an suggested goal in the back of their head and this is the *only* event that will get them to live an active lifestyle, then by all means do it. Just take out that time goal, cus said athlete is not preparing properly to meet said time goal with the limitations he has. So essentially he imo is setting himself up for "failure" with respect to the "goal".




ETA: And I called out your statement for BS because I know that those athletes who "I did sub 10 on 12 hours" actually did weeks of more than 12 hours, thus invalidates the whole claim of "12 hours" to begin with.





-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Feb 26, 19 8:19
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
That's the reality of it, but again athletes are going to do whatever athletes want to do and if this is more just an suggested goal in the back of their head and this is the *only* event that will get them to live an active lifestyle, then by all means do it. Just take out that time goal, cus said athlete is not preparing properly to meet said time goal with the limitations he has. So essentially he imo is setting himself up for "failure" with respect to the "goal". [/font]




Yup - I also said that - ditch the time goal.
Crossed wires btw, 12 hours a week is a different training constraint from 2hours per day - which will be particularly impactful for a long distance event such as full IM
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I think it depends on what you are saying. If you are saying someone "averages" 12 hours of training vs someone who ONLY has a max of 12 hours, those are 2 different completely scenarios.

yes, and your interpretation of the equation is the correct one. Because in the context of this thread the OP is going to max out at 12 hours.
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [Light_Kira] [ In reply to ]
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This is exactly what Matt Dixon at Purple Patch talks about. Best place to start would probably be read his book and then go from there before you see if he / his team is still taking new athletes
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Re: help me break 11hrs IM but Im in a complicated situation..... [Coachderekyorku] [ In reply to ]
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I would be very curious if he would advocate for an athlete with this strict of limitations to actually doing an IM under that goal parameters. Because I think most good coaches can build a plan for a "time crunched" athlete that will force them at some point to have "long" days (certainly more than 2 hours) and can get them to the finish line fairly safely. As earlier discussed get in 3-4 4 hour bikes in the build and have that once a month be part of your 12 hours and you suddenly are much better prepared than if you can only ride up to 44 miles (39% of the bike) every week as your "long" ride.

But part of coaching is educating the athlete and being the "real" person to really showcase the situation with all the facts on the table. Take out all the emotion and be real with the situation. In this case you have an athlete who doesn't likely get the necessary sleep to recover without the stress of training. Add on training stress and you then really affect an father/husband/co-worker let alone the "athlete". So I would ask the athlete-

How are you going to break 11 hours with your schedule? Explain how your going to prepared for 112 miles on 2 hour max trainer efforts? How are you going to prepare to handle hours 8-11 in the race when your schedule only allows 2 hour max workout loads a day (that's 5 x the longest duration he's admitted he can train for in 1 day).


Then hopefully through that education, the athlete makes smart decisions. But in a real case like this I would be very very hesitant as a coach to take on an athlete with this specific training limitations, and this specific time goal (actually the athlete would never want me to coach them for this event because I would ask them to showcase how they can properly prepare for said event with the limitations). And I'm sure there are coaches who will say they'll do it. But this is a situation where there can be real "life" consequences with adding on this specific type of IM training stresses to a person that is a dad/husband/co-worker in "real life".

ETA: I had 3 athletes this past year go from basically no swimming background to completing an 70.3 in a year time frame (did 2 of them, one only an WTC event). 4 months before their 70.3 they asked me when they could do an IM. I told them 2 years of training more and do it in fall of 2020. The 3 athletes were friends and did "group" training and so if 1 athlete left, the others left too. I told them based on their fitness, abilities, timeline they needed 2 years to adapt to the volume needed to be properly prepared to finish the event. They signed up for IM AZ 2019 anyways, told me they did. After careful consultation and speaking with them, I decided to "fire" them because I knew that it was going to take taking them to the breaking point in order to get them prepared. Simply based on their current time/fitness only 1 was easily going to finish, the other 2 would likely not make it based on time cuts. It was the hardest decision I've had to make, because they are athletes who I really like to coach and they loved my coaching. But at the end of the day their results are on my ledger and I have to feel comfortable that the goals of the athlete can match the training they can do and if I don't think they are the same, I put my foot down. Of course the athletes will find new coaches or they'll find ppl that will say "of course you can do it", but just be real with yourself in your approach to training. Sure enough in 5 weeks time their new coach broke 2 of them with foot injuries by doubling their run volume within 5 week time period. So it's not to say I told you so, it's too say that I failed them in understanding why their decision likely wasn't a very smart one and wouldn't lead to a very successful race. But because they wanted to go on and "work hard" to achieve this goal I knew I had to remove myself from the situation and let "athletes going do what athletes going to do".

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Feb 27, 19 7:18
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