You are making my point on the hardcore, all or nothing mentality. I'm saying a huge percentage of people at races are participants not competitors. They are doing this as a fun, challenging and healthy activity. They are not interested in placing, podiums or qualifying for anything. It doesn't mean they want to take PEDs.

This doesn't relate to the original topic of this thread because I agree she should have known but I would guess that most people entering sanctioned races have no clue about the banned lists or the possibility of being tested. If they did they may not enter races. That can affect attendance.

Why can't a recreational division work? Only those in the elite division or whatever you want to call it are eligible for prizes, qualifying, etc. and are open to being drug tested. Everyone else is there to participate, much like a century ride.

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Formerly DrD

I don't have an issue with a competition category under WADA rules and a rec category. But the rec category should ideally not have times/splits etc. You just get a finisher medal. If not, what happens is you get a bunch of guys in the rec division doped to the gills beating people in the WADA approved category. I suppose that is fine to some degree, but if you want do that, list the results separately....example would be

Ironman Tremblant Competition Race <link1>
Ironman Tremblant Citizen Event <link2>

Keep the results separate and start the Citizen/Rec wave entirely separately. For example if the water temp is between 76F and 82F and you choose to use a wetsuit, you also end up in the Citizen Category. Taking this back to the original topic, this also solves the problem for athletes like Kristi who want to violate WADA rules, and be technically doped and want to just run in the Mountains at Pikes Peak. Well, she can enter the Citizen Event.

Dev

Absolutely separate starts. Separate timing and splits for everyone is fine too. It's the same as the current pro vs AG times we have now. Completely different race with different tactics. Other than egos being hurt, I don't see a problem if a rec division participant has a fast time. They're not winning anything and not taking anyone's spot qualifying for championship events. If you race the citizen division, do well and want to step up to the competitive ranks you better do your homework and be prepared for the possibility of being tested.

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Formerly DrD

A race could have a handful of AG dopers getting recognition and KQ because why bother entering if the bar is a 25yr old result for a +50yr old athlete? MOP AGers could stay at home and time trial for feedback rather than add legitimacy to a race or sport that doesn't care.

As a 60yr old triathlete who is a MOP, if a doctor recommended something to boost my "lifestyle" performance, I would know that would also help me at races. We weren't born yesterday. AGers are also tempted and rewarded by the recognition as much as anyone. It might be even more tempting because of your "age" and there are only a "handful" of others to beat. It's also an ego boost to beat younger punks too.

+1 to paul_d's comments that we are trying to determine how +50yr old athletes do without PE Drugs. If PEDs are the way to go, we could have races for athletes openly using PEDs without penalty. It's just that those openly using PEDs can not compete in "clean" races. Would a handful of people be honest enough to show up for a PED race?

Perhaps the mentality of these cheaters and their defenders is that they do want "clean" races with some rules that aren't monitored so they can selectively choose which rules to break without penalty and without the chaos of having no rules.

As swimmers, bikers and runners we discredit someone who cuts a corner (knowingly or unknowingly) in a race. Doping is almost like a "white collar" crime that many tolerate and don't want to address. Even "white collar" crime is bad for business though.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

That might work fine.

The race director, in this case, effectively did exactly what you suggest. . He only contracted with USADA to randomly test the top 10. He clearly didn't want to trouble recreational runners. Just happens that this Kristi made the top 10. She's sort of in a gray area. Pretty good trail runner. More than "recreational," but certainly not "elite." She was sort of the worst-case scenario publicity-wise for the race director and USADA. I have a hard time faulting USADA. They were told to randomly test the top 10, and they did. They can't just shove an inconvenient positive under the carpet and pretend it didn't happen. (Carl Lewis...) The race director probably had a "be careful what you wish for" moment. When USADA tests they bring their full arsenal. There's no "USADA-light." No separate line for 50 year-old women in menopause. It could be argued there should be. But there isn't. I fully agree that if we can create some reasonable definition for "recreational," it's not a bad idea. I also think it'd be a good idea to create a "WADA-light" test that only tests for the heavy-hitter drugs. The big-time anabolic steroids, EPO, and hGH. That would lower the cost significantly and make life much simpler for women in menopause, etc.

"All of that said, I do think it would be reasonable to have a smaller list of banned substances, if not for everyone, then at least for non professionals. Especially all the recreational drugs with no performance benefit. "

I think it's just patently obvious that we shouldn't have the same anto-doping rules for 19 year old elites as we do for 55 year old amateurs.


This specific case is a little out of bounds, as you mentioned dhea doesn't seem to have documented effects on performance.


My take is that for non elite world championship competition, smaller banned list and different tue process. The tue process for testosterone is well known and involve sprimary hypogonadism, meaning you have to identify which particular gland flat out doesn't work, a general low T level isn't enough. For amateurs I'd be totally fine with exogenous testoasterone being allowed as long as the person's T level wasn't above the median level for men his age. I realize that this would mean many would take T right up to the level, not optimal but better than taking a healthful hobby away from a person with poor health.

My basic understanding is that a lot of the cost is collection (human capitol, and observing standard protocol) not testing the samples. Having said that a "WADA-light" test would be urine only, I *think* that you could get EPO, HGH and most anabolic compounds from that.

Urine only also makes collection more efficient and faster (no nurses or doctors required for blood collection) IE more potential "through put" or more samples per dollar.

Maybe someone else can chime in, I believe the main reason to test blood is for bio passport purposes. Profiling etc, or catching the idiots who accidentally take someone else's blood (Hamilton) Not sure, but this doesn't make sense to me for AG athletes….If you ar sonly getting one blood sample every couple of years or longer then how do you create a profile?

Maurice

I have no sympathy for Kristi. She should have known better, especially with her professional background and racing experience. USADA absolutely did their job.

This thread got off track morphing into a triathlon doping discussion. This is a complicated issue but I think the competition and citizen/recreational division idea has real merit.

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Formerly DrD

She was being disingenuous by saying she's not an elite runner. She wins categories. She wins prizes. She wins cash. That's pretty elite.

And as forTrail Loving Middle Aged Mom - wasn't Armstrong a Road Loving Middle Aged Dad ?

Caught bang to rights. If she's gone to the effort of getting treatment she surely would have thought - can I take these ?

If folks are cheating today taking drugs, does anyone think these folks would admit it and just race with no rewards? No way, their egos are too large.

And I loved your comment that AG's are not about what a 50 year old can do being pumped full of drugs and the body performs like 25, it is about
who had the luck as we have gotten older to still perform. This is the level playing field. Not trying to say the doc said take this because it will improve
your quality of like to make you feel like 25 again, this is a joke. But this is what so many folks have convinced themselves that this is totally legit.

Yep, going to get much worse which is why I try to just do this sport for fun, since I cannot compete against the Moats types all drugged up.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

first off, i'm no doctor but I just googled HRT and found:

"Use of hormone therapy changed abruptly when a large clinical trial found that the treatment actually posed more health risks than benefits for one type of hormone therapy, particularly when given to older postmenopausal women. As the concern about health hazards attributed to hormone therapy grew, doctors became less likely to prescribe it.
Hormone therapy is no longer recommended for disease prevention, such as heart disease or memory loss. However, further review of clinical trials and new evidence show that hormone therapy may be a good choice for certain women, depending on their risk factors.
Women who experience an early menopause, particularly those who had their ovaries removed and don't take estrogen therapy until at least age 45, have a higher risk of:

• Osteoporosis
• Coronary heart disease (CHD)
• Earlier death
• Parkinsonism (Parkinson's-like symptoms)
• Dementia
• Anxiety or depression
• Sexual function concerns"

from the Mayo Clinic."

so it really isn't a case of trying to regain that 25yo body but instead combat bone loss, heart disease, death, parkinsonism, dementia, psychiatric issues and sexual function. TBH i'm a little surprised at this info as the last time i looked into this HRT was really being pushed. Also, from what i remember and read, the hormones being replaced in HRT are only estrogen and progesterone. i haven't looked but i can't imagine any athletic improvements with those hormones.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

Kathy, what you are not getting is that age group competition is about racing peers as we naturally age along with all the bad and ugly that comes with aging. When the natural aging process is altered chemically (and that is fine for general health reasons), it alters the age group competition. Suddenly you may be in 55-59 but you're effectively racing people who should be in 40-44 because they have chemically reversed their bodies aging with outside chemical assistance. As I said, it is entirely fine to take the chemicals that people may feels gives them a better quality of life. But please don't enter a competition. It is pretty simple. I don't think anyone on this thread has a beef with taking the drugs if they feel they can get better quality of life, but you can't have better quality of life and the fast race times that magically come with then. You can take the drugs and jack up your FTP or your times at the track working out with yourself or your buddies. Just don't show up to a race that falls under the WADA umbrella. I think we all get that no one at 50 or higher will end up with the body of a 25 year old...that was an extreme example, but thing are being done by many athletes under the "prescription of their doctors" that gets them partially there...and they think because their docs say it is cool for general health, then it is not cheating in racing. It is cheating in racing. Put me on testosterone and at least my swim and bike times will be just as fast as when I was 25 and I'll actually be able to do more training than I could then. My run may not be quite there, but suddenly I am swimming faster, biking faster, higher FTP, so getting to T2 more fresh, and probably run a touch faster. Suddenly across the board, I'm going way faster. But that's not how it works for legal racing. If 50 year old guys think it is cool to be on T therapy because the doc saying they are low, maybe they should race in 25-29 or 30-34 or pro and see how things go.

The rules say you cannot take the stuff. So I do not understand why all the emotion? We have a choice if we want to do things. Whether it is rules, cost, locations, etc. we have a choice.
So why is this so hard. You look at the rules, and decide if one wants to either follow them, or just do something else. We can all argue until we are blue in the face whether a certain rule
is good or bad, whether it helps a performance or not, but bottom line there are a known set of rules before someone signs up for a race. There is no right to race. It is just a hobby , sport
something that does not put food on the table.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Those that you mentioned would race in the competitive division and would be eligible to be tested. It may take a little education to have those racers fully aware of the implications but they couldn't claim ignorance. You are looking at the pointy end of the field not the 90% + that are there participating and couldn't care less about anything more than that. There is room in this sport for both.

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Formerly DrD

So, does this work in body building which I believe has 2 divisions?

This issue is one that will never be "solved" since so many think if the doc says I need it, it is not cheating.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Outstanding summary. So simple, but it seems so many just do not understand. I want to race against old guys as nature provided, not folks who have jacked up their bodies.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

For about the millionth time, Sudafed is NOT a banned substance.

S9. GLUCOCORTICOIDS All glucocorticoids are prohibited when administered by oral, intravenous, intramuscular or rectal routes.

i.e. you can take a nasal spray for allergies, but you can get a shot for an injury. And seriously how can getting a steroid shot for an injury before a race NOT be a huge red flag that maybe this is not legal for racing? If you are a "recreational" athlete why do you need to get a steroid shot so you can race? That is pretty non-recreational behavior. A recreational athlete would just not race if they were injured wouldn't they?

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Point taken on Sudafed (fwiw take it as emblematic of common MRDs that might contain a banned substance that is not obvious to the user).

As for taking corticosteroids before a race, it could be for an unrelated injury (ex. a tennis player treating an arm injury who had also signed up to do the local marathon). Also there are lots of TNT types who train to complete (not compete), and who would seek treatment so they could do the event they trained for (and probably don't even consider that this might be "cheating").

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

no i totally get that but I'm not of the opinion that HRT is doping or illegal in any way. you're going to make me actually look at WADA now, and PubMed to see if there have been studies with any correlation between HRT and athletic improvement so off i go. You actually made me research HRT again (and that was a good thing because i've been holding out for that magic "fix" only to find now that the risks outweigh the benefits so thanks for bursting that hope bubble for me. :)) so this thread has been very helpful personally. however, i can't see the viewpoint that taking QOL meds for treatable issues is equivalent with doping. for me, this sport is just a hobby and my QOL and family come first. i understand your passion but i don't agree.

okay, do i have the right link? http://list.wada-ama.org/...earch&s=estrogen http://list.wada-ama.org/...h&s=progesterone i'm coming up empty for HRT hormones...

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

The issue is not if this is doping or helps or not. The rules say it is illegal, period for whatever reason. Why do you not address the only issue that matters?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

This is what I was thinking even before I saw your post but figured someone such as yourself would post it up. I'm a little bit out of being in an AG where this is a concern for legit replacement reasons but with how quickly this is picking up in general I would say it will be pretty rampant in 10-15 years. Never had it tested but I would generally guess that I have decent natural testosterone based on my build etc (not sure if that is a legit thing to look at) but I'll most likely not need replacement if I had to guess, my father turns 59 this year and don't believe he is using any.

I've always sort of been torn on the topic in general, even a TUE even though allowed is still in a way sort of cheating as you described earlier with the whole competing against those aging the same as you. I honestly wish that the TUE process was easier to encourage people to be honest about it, but then like a wetsuit since it is a CHOICE that you are simply out of competition but you can still participate. I really dislike the idea that just because someone does one thing for their health they can't participate in something else which arguably is as well. If they are afraid to come clean with what they are on because then they can't even participate why would anyone bother trying to get the exemption, they now have target on their back.

Participation class for those that admit to using somethings seems to be the best in my opinion. I can see the slippery slope slide, as it may seem to be encouraging "doping" in a way but it would really only be a class for things that qualify for a TUE, how I see it at least.

The whole you got caught, which you cheated so I don't feel that bad for you, so now you can't participate has always rubbed me the wrong way.

we asthmatics take corticosteroids daily and during attacks. on Xmas day i had a very mild attack (and have been taking my meds). i had to choose between eating or breathing. I didn't have enough breath to do both at the same time.

okay, i just checked (I think?) WADA and can't find corticosteroid/s or prednisone or even albuterol... oh! let me check dexa. i get that injected...

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

from what i can find HRT is not illegal at all. can you share links that state is is? i'm also coming up empty for dexamethasone (get that injected a lot), prednisone and albuterol (and i had been under the impression that corticosteroids were not okay but apparently they are?).

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

You are a moron! I'm out.

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Formerly DrD

In general Cortocosteroids are okay in the form of an inhaler or nasal spray, but not okay if taken orally or injected.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava