i wonder why she was being tested at all

Well she is kind of a baller. Top 10 overall female at 2014 Pikes Peak. And regularly top 5 female at all the ultras she does. Despite playing the "just a middle-aged menopausal mom" card pretty hard.

Also playing the "it's all so confusing, I'm not elite " card.

There's nothing confusing about this statement on the Pikes Peak registration page:

"As a participant in the Pikes Peak Ascent and/or Marathon you are subject to drug testing pursuant to USADA standards and procedures, and you acknowledge this notification and your willingness to be so tested."

I guess random might truly mean random.

I would imagine that the resources could be better allocated than purely random though.

I fully support testing age groupers, especially those trying to either win the AG or qualify for something (Boston, Kona, etc).

I am curious how this person was selected. I would hope that at the same race on the same day they tested all the award recipients too.

I am also curious if the TUE rules could be written to better handle this situation; maybe they can't, but do we really want be banning a non-competitive recreational athlete for prescribed menopause meds.

Nevermind the italicized above, wrote that before I knew that she was placing so highly in all of her events.

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Well, looking at her Athlinks results, she almost always wins her age group in the trail marathons and ultras that she's done. So, she's not exactly a MOP athlete.

As we look at a model for AG testing in triathlon, isn't this really what we're working towards? What's most often suggested is that the top athletes in each AG get tested. The scenario that she presents for how and why she tested positive seems almost exactly akin to what gets so much attention with regard to male AG athletes using testosterone replacement therapy. How would we react if she was a 50-year-old male athlete that was popped and then said, "Well, I went to my doctor and tests showed that I had low DHEA and practically non-existent testosterone. Despite taking the dose recommended, my levels remain low; there is no competitive advantage from my perspective"?

Whether or not this is the type of result that we want from and AG testing system is up for debate.

She won her age group at the Pikes Peak Marathon, and she was the 7th overall female.

These are the real cheaters we should be worrying about. Totally planned and then try to say but they did not know, why me, etc. Amazing.

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That does change things some in my mind, the article seemed to imply that she was a person just out there for fun, which is not exactly the case.

It is hard to say much from looking at her times/paces (since these are hilly/mountainous trail runs), but if she were approaching a BQ time (for instance), I would feel even more strongly about it.

Either way, I just hope that the first or only person they tested wasn't the 51 year old age grouper who was 7th in gender.

I am all for testing age groupers, hell, I wish that every person in the race could be tested.

Short of that happening, I hope they direct the resources strategically to stop as much cheating as possible and specifically keep the awards and qualifying spots in the hands of the clean athletes.

To me it is more important to get first place and second place correct than it is to get 50th place and 51st place correct.

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I'm also worried about drafters too. 30% aerodynamic savings, twice as much benefit as EPO.

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Yeah but Dave has a mirror for that;)

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

and apparently he wants a medal for being old and not taking T

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There isn't any real normal legit use for the stuff medically.
There isn't any real evidence of performance benefit either.

So, who knows, maybe she knew, maybe she didn't. 1 year seems fair, given that it probably doesn't help her any.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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She was using DHEA, which can be bought over the counter, has never been shown to have a PED effect, and has no reason to be on the banned list. A very large percentage of amateurs would test positive for OTC medications because none of them check the active ingredients. How many people here check every medication, OTC or not, with the global drug reference? How many amateurs are going to bow out of an event they signed up for because they took a cold med a few days before the event? Holding amateurs to the zero tolerance standards of professionals is just stupid.

The ADA should concentrate on products that actually works. Catching amateur athletes who participate for fun and are using OTC products does nothing to fight doping. It is just window dressing so the ADA can pretend they are making a difference.

Isn't that what Tyler Hamilton got popped for when he tried to make a come back? I think I heard that
it's used sometimes to mask other "real" PEDs and that's why it's banned.

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/pink/ these are not mutually exclusive, you can draft AND use EPO, no one said you have to only choose one /pink/

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I absolutely check everything on the list, very easy to do, here it is:
http://www.wfdf.org/...ohibited-list-en.pdf


Pseudoephedrine which is in non drowsy cold medications is allowable up to a point:


Nobody is going to be positive for taking cold medication a few days before an event.

You don't have to use non drowsy cold medications, and thus avoid any risk.

Further, since there are no cures for the cold, you can just not take anything, and save some money

Further, amateurs aren't held to a zero tolerance standard. Cases like this almost always get shorter bans.

All of that said, I do think it would be reasonable to have a smaller list of banned substances, if not for everyone, then at least for non professionals. Especially all the recreational drugs with no performance benefit.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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I doubt it was random. It's possible her competitors harbored suspicions and some may have contacted USADA. They don't have the resources for truly random testing, and are more likely to target age groupers when others complain or they have some reason to believe that someone is cheating. That's probably why we keep seeing age groupers popped here and there in cycling, running, and triathlon. It would be really interesting to know the percentage of failed age grouper drug tests each year as a percentage of total age groupers tested. I bet the number actually tested is pretty low and the percentage popped pretty high...an indicator that the tests are not random.

Ditto, I had a bad cold Kona week (stuck in that plane for so long) and I was on the web all day trying to tell my doc (who was doing his best) what I could have and what I couldn't have and when I could have it.

The biggest challenge for me was trying to figure out the definition of "in competition" for an amateur Ironman competitor. If I recall correctly it was something like 12 hours before the cannon.

For those that have not looked, there is a big difference between what you can have in your system our of competition versus in competition.

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next time you get a cold call me.
I will prescribe whiskey and sleep.

Whiskey is allowed, in or out of competition!

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Now I see how to clean up the front end of the AGs in triathlon, we just need a good phone campaign! We get together in large numbers and report suspicion of anyone that is fast, they will get tested, if they are clean awesome. If not, they get busted, also awesome.

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It's not zero tolerance.

I don't believe there's any common OTC cold medicine that would trigger a positive at the recommended dosage. Believe it or not, there is common sense baked into WADA policy.

I would imagine there has to be more than a suspicion. Something like why WTC selected Moats for an OOC test.

USADA claims the right to test anyone at anytime for any reason.
So there doesn't HAVE to be even a suspicion.
In practice there probably is some typical standard set of parameters that will cause them to test an amateur but I don't know if anyone knows what they are.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Apparently, Pikes Peak was the first trail event in the US to institute drug testing. According to the article linked below, they were to randomly test six out of the top ten finishers in the marathon (I assume for both genders, though the article isn't clear). This woman was the seventh place female in the marathon, which means that she had a 60% chance of getting tested. So, it wasn't "random," but it also doesn't seem to be a case of targeted testing.

http://www.runnersworld.com/...on-adds-drug-testing

Good on Pikes Peak! Her comments seemed to indicate that she thought USADA only tested T&F athletes, not road or trail runners.

I check as well, not in a position that it matters (yet) but personally would not want to know it may have helped in some way and broken the rules.

I'm actually "prescribed" it by my Dr and make sure if I am taking it that I stop a week plus out of a race if I have been taking it. It gives me bloody noses and I also don't love how it makes my feel at times so I haven't been taking it lately but i really should be taking it daily.

On a side note lots of folks including my girlfriend had cold like symptoms the week of Kona, I speculate it was due to air quality (volcano smog) I felt it was quite bad this year and I was coughing a bit.

"in competition" In Kona basically means from package pick up to when your race ends, IIRC they tested a lot of AG athletes (some say over 100�not sure if thats true or not) in the few days before.

Maurice

Uh-huh. They suspected her of using something that has no performance enhancing effect so they called USADA.

Either way, I just hope that the first or only person they tested wasn't the 51 year old age grouper who was 7th in gender. //

This is exactly the person they should be testing, along with a few other AG's up from there. If you want to clean up AG racing, these are the folks to test. I have said it before, i believe if you tested the top 10 in each AG above 45, you would get over a 50% positive ratio. Most know what they are doing too, a few might be clueless and just took advice from a coach or friend without knowing. And DHEA works. I don't know where you get that it is not effective, it was used quite usefully in the old days. I knew guys taking 300+mg a day, and they absolutely thought/knew it worked. It was legal for a long time, and over the counter as you say, so it was widely used. I used a 25mg dose for about a year(while it was legal) and it absolutely had an effect on me. My gray hair turned brown again, and my sex drive went into overdrive. That is what i remember, so guessing that whatever caused those symptoms, also was working some magic on other performances. I remember being able to get it at costco too, super cheap and in large quanties. I just never felt good about taking too much of anything, vitamins, caffeine, or any of the other things we all tried that were not banned back in the day. But this one eventually made it to the list, and for good reason.


They used their testing dollars in the exact right spot, and the results bear it out..

People test positive all the time for stuff in OTC meds, and these are elites who are supposed to be cautious about this stuff--unlike amateurs just out to do a fun weekend event.

http://masterstrack.com/2010/05/12172/

Failing the Amateur Clean Protocol. Try to keep up.

....

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The plural of anecdotes is not data. Find a legit research study that shows DHEA is anything more than a placebo.

The fact that USADA lied about her being an elite T&F athlete says a lot. She does not even hold a license.

Her response:

http://masterstrack.com/2014/12/33461/

I think one year ban and forcing her to go on Oprah is punishment enough.

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Ephedrine. That's a full-blown stimulant, and behind-the-counter in the U.S. Admittedly, my knowledge is somewhat U.S.-centric.

I think you're exaggerating the frequency of this. Going down the USADA list there hasn't been a pseudoephedrine positive since 2004. And scanning down the list I can't spot any "OTC" positive over the past few years. Although I could be missing them if I don't know the chemical names correctly...

ok at this point I have to wonder if you are being intentionally misleading and have some ulterior motive, the original press release is here:

http://masterstrack.com/2014/12/33447/

The word elite does not appear.
Track and field was likely an error, not a lie. why lie about that?

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

We can get a pretty good handle on how often people get popped for OTC meds, at least in the usa:

http://www.usada.org/...g/results/sanctions/

how many?

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Marathon runners fall within the ambit of "track and field" for USADA purposes. There is no separate "running" or "marathon" category. Marathon is a "track and field" sport in the olympics.

 

Probably just a database field issue. All their runners are listed as "Track and Field." They don't have a "ultra-marathoner" or "trail runner" field, probably because USADA has never before caught an ultra or trail runner. Someone in their office maybe should have pointed out, "Hey, she's not exactly track & field, maybe we should insert a new field into the database." But I'll give them a pass. Because that's, at the end of the day, a trivial detail.

I guess it falls under the 'field' part of track and field? haha

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I love this "I feel like I�ve been abducted by the circus.� the chic nailed it.....

It was over the counter until recent years, still is legal in plant form, and still doesn't require a prescription in most forms just ID (such as in sudafed and other decongestants).


While yes it is behind the counter, it was OTC just a few years ago which for most people changes what they probably think about it.

"Marathon runners fall within the ambit of "track and field" for USADA purposes. There is no separate "running" or "marathon" category. Marathon is a "track and field" sport in the olympics."


I thought it was common knowledge among runners and certainly STers that this is the case.

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Right. There were a ton of pseudoephedrine positives in 2001-2004. One change was what you mentioned - increased regulation in the U.S. Another was I think WADA changed it from a banned drug to a threshold drug.

But my point is if I walk into Walgreen's today, and go to the cold remedy section, and take anything at the recommended dosage, I'm very, very unlikely to test positive.

If I go to the supplement aisle, take something from behind the counter, or double up on cold medicines I could get into trouble.

But I think that's reasonable.

Yeah, just a mistake that they describe a recreational runner who does not hold a USATF license as a track & field athlete. It could not possibly be a way to puff up the unfortunate runner who tripped over rules that make no sense.

Lucky for us Travis Tygart saw fit to waste USADA resources on people doing fun runs. Note that failing to get a TUE for a substance that has no performance enhancing effect is worth a year's suspension while being spending years on a hardcore doping regimen, like Dave Zabriskie and Levi Leipheimer, warrants six months during the off-season. Way to go USADA.

I'm not sure "Track and field athlete" is any more misleading than you are being when you call a age group winner and overall contender at races 'recreational'.

She has been in the game a long time, she gets top results, entered a race that was advertising that it would be testing, and got caught.

Too bad for her she didn't have a Bruyneel to turn in for an extra 6 months off.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

USATF sanctions a number of trail championships. If you are running in them you will fall under USADA even if you don't hold a USATF license. Which is an oddity of the way it works. You can race in a USATF trail race and not hold a license, you are just not eligible for prize money. (I have missed out on some money for not holding a license more than once) Pikes Peak was a USATF trail championship event. USATF has a fairly large umbrella which they have been trying to grow in the last couple of years in to trail and ultra events.

If there is testing at a very competitive event and a 50 year old is in the top ten, I would test her too.

..

Sorry, this was not a "fun run", and you're being intentionally obtuse if you continue to argue in this direction.

I find testing of the top 10 at this race entirely appropriate, and I'm very glad usada used resources to do so. This is the type of bust that will help serve as a major deterrent to amateur doping.

I find Kristi Anderson's "woe is me" story disgusting. She's a physical therapist; not knowing doping rules is close to professional negligence--and at the least pure stupidity. If she wants to take legally prescribed DHEA for health reasons, fine: she can also choose to not sign up for competitive races.

And shame on Lava magazine and the hack at materstrack.com for writing such one-sided stories.

I agree that the year's suspension is ridiculous when compared to Hincapie's and Leipheimer's off-season 6 months--but that's a reflection of them wrongly getting insanely light penalties. Compared to how they should have been punished, Anderson's year is entirely appropriate.

if it is ineffective, why did the doctor prescribe it ?
if it is ineffective, why does Kristi continue to take it ?

I'm happy to hear of this suspension. It's no different from me taking testosterone for 'medical reasons'. Doping is what it is, real simple.
A highly competitive runner who hasn't heard of TUEs ? it would make a cat laugh..

If I'm drunk on a bike, can I get nailed for DUI? It is a vehicle, after all...

I see that I wasn't the only person to have this thought.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

What type of fantasy land do you live in? This will do absolutely nothing to deter amateur "doping." She was sanctioned for not filling out paperwork to get a TUE to use a worthless supplement, a supplement that is sold OTC in every Walmart and is used by hundreds of thousands of people every day. This will have no effect on people who are intentionally doping with stuff that actually works. The only thing this shows is USADA wasting resources so it can claim it is making a difference (by busting menopausal recreational runners).

Drinking a Coke during a race has more of an ergogenic effect than a lifetime of DHEA use.

USADA is not wasting resources. The race pays for the testing.

doctors/pseudo docs sometimes prescribe holistic medicines or practices. I definitely think this DHEA stuff is placebo as in that recent EPO study that gave 1% improvement performance on placebo. Perhaps that guy who mentioned hair growth improving also cleaned up his diet and started exercising....(?)

Take a step back and look beyond your perceived injustice of the substance she was busted for. The deterrent is the fact that usada is now testing front of pack age groupers.

It's been said that pros failing an in-competition test is akin to failing an IQ test, because you have to be stupid to be caught there. The thing is, age group dopers don't even need to pass the IQ test, because they're virtually never tested.

Increased testing at these types of events will make some of them stop doing it. Why do you think that is a bad thing?

Also, for the record, this race has 1st-4th prizes of $2,000; $1,000; $600; and $200. 5th-10th get free entry into next year's race ($130 value). Kristi Anderson finished 7th, and cheated 11th place out of a $130 prize.

Would you feel differently if she'd won the $2,000? Especially if your wife had finished 2nd?

Funny that the winner won by 17 minutes and was also in that 50-54 AG. I hope she was tested too.

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I've attempted to respond to this thread three times, but deleted my comments because I couldn't say it any better than you have in your previous posts. I'm not sure what or why Arch is defending the guilty party or challenging the process, but I find his arguments weak and diversionary.

My only additional comment here is that while I find professional level doping disappointing, I find age group doping pathetic. Oh, and I'm not buying her story.

Edit for the insertion of a missing word "challenging".

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As been stated on this forum many times, getting a TUE is not as simple as filling out paperwork. It is highly unlikely that she would have been granted a TUE (at least based on the limited information we know about this case), so you can hardly blame it on paperwork.

I am all for testing age groupers, hell, I wish that every person in the race could be tested.

Jim,

If they did that there would be a lot of positives - way more than you think.

My sense is that if you took all the 2000 who raced at IMH in October and tested the whole field on a surprise test - the number of positives would be surprising in not a good way.

There would be a big group of willfully ignorant folks like this woman, "What's a TUE?" There would be another large group who would be just ignorant and positive test inadvertently from tainted supplements or something along those lines, and then a smaller group who knowingly where taking PED's

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

If you are referring to the post by "Monty" he said it made his grey hair go back to brown, not improve growth.

I don't believe he recently started exercising though since he was a big time pro triathlete back in the 80s. Was that before you were born maybe?

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Sign me up for some DHEA.

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Nick Backstrom (hockey) was popped for Sudafed during the Sochi Olympics this year.

Agreed, especially on the parts in bold...if she wants to juice up for health reasons, go for it Kristi, but please don't toe the start line at races where other athletes are sacrificing the upside health that they can get by getting their doc to prescribe a PED that is fine for jacking up health but banned from sport. Those athletes choose to not take the best medication available from health care professionals and live with "lesser health" for the privilege of competing in sport. You want to go on the juice and be "healthy"....then no sport for you...at least no competition. The rest of us are suffering it out on bread and water while you're on your DHEA....

....or maybe she is flat outright lying. Certainly at her level she undertands that if here body is out of whack and she needs some hormone replacement, that's pretty well putting her in the PED taking camp. The fact that she even mentions "going on Oprah" suggests that she understand this...remember Lance saying to Oprah, "No I can't even do a fun run"....guess what Kirsti....if you are popped you can't even do a fun run like Pike's Peak.

Good find. Oddly the only sanction seems to have been suspension from the gold medal game....

Not in all sports it's not. :)

The ergogenic properties of any substance or method is irrelevant. What matters is whether it's prohibited.

Being an ergogenic substance or method is neither a necessary nor sufficient reason for a substance to be prohibited.

It's really simple. If you choose to use a prohibited substance, then don't take out a licence and race.

Did you read the article that you linked? In it the author basically says that hockey players, including Backstrom apparently, regularly use pseudo ephedrine as a PED. In other words, they're not taking a couple of Sudafed because they have a cold. They're doing exactly what the ban on ephedrine was designed to prevent.

Canadian rower Silken Laumann got caught at the Pan Am games in 1995. She took over the counter Benadryl Decongestant Allergy (although a different Benadryl than what her doctor recommended)

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/laumann-fails-drug-test/

Drinking a Coke during a race has more of an ergogenic effect than a lifetime of DHEA use.

Boom!

Best line on the thread!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I'm thinking that if she was a black sprinter vying for an Atlanta Olympics spot, he/she would have gotten "less of a pass" from the Canadian public than golden girl Silken. To this day, I believe she should have gotten a solid 2 year ban, for one of the two:

1. Being stupid enough to take a banned cold medication
2. Using one to get a boost and then coming out and lying to the public.

The former alone warrants a ban from the profession. Anyone who is going for Olympic gold should know better. She should have gotten a proper ban. No way a black track athlete who looks "less Canadian" gets off the hook so easily as Silken. And then her going on TV and showing the two boxes showing "this one is OK, this one is not OK blah blah blah" was a bit of crocodile tears just like the athlete who is the topic of this thread.


I remember racing at the World Military Games also in 1995. The team doctor said, "OK, no medication, no nothing, no vitamins, no supplements. You feel sick, you come and see me and if you need something it is coming out of this box and this box only. We can't have any of our soldiers test positive"....and that was just fun games for us. Our job was being soldiers, not athletes. Silken's job was to be an athlete and she claimed to not even know the basic rules of engagement. My sympathy for her excuses was pretty well zero then and now.

Exactly. DHEA has not been proven to offer any benefit to endurance athletes. How does this decision make WADA look better? How does it help in the battle against the really serious offenders who use T, EPO, and other drugs? This is in the same ballpark as catching Phelps smoking weed....

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Yep. WADA trying to earn its keep, and not showing much.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

It hasn't been proven to improve women's health. It hasn't been proven to help athletic performance. But people (men and women) still take it.

DHEA is banned by the NFL, NBA, and NCAA. That's the rule.

If you don't like a rule, change the rule. But until the rule is changed, you're cheating if you use DHEA.

(And what did WADA have to do with catching Phelps smoking weed?)

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

FWIW - Pseudo-ephedrine was used being used as a masking agent for certain steroids at the time! That's my understanding of why it was and still is on the WADA banned substances list.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

The goal is not to fight doping. It is to look like doping is being fought. It is theater, like putting Homeland Security on the northern border while hundreds of thousands run across the sourthern one. The goal is not to catch dopers because that is hard. Anyone intentionally doping, using stuff that works, and being the least bit careful will not test positive in competition. That leads to a problem of how to convince the rubes that something is being done. The problem is solved by loading up the restricted list with a huge variety of substances that exist in OTC products but have limited to nil effect of performance. That produces a steady stream of inadvertent doping cases and press releases to go with them. Testing amateurs, who cannot be expected to even attempt to follow the niggling details that still cause professionals to be caught out, will produce even more cases. Meanwhile the intentional dopers laugh about the kabuki theater being put on by the ADAs.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/...sAuthenticated=false

John

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Actually, depending on the supplement, it is that simple. Fill out the paperwork, have a doc sign off and submit. When asthma products were on the banned list, that's all it took for me to get a TUE.

The more potent the effect, though, the higher level of testing and scrutiny before it's granted.

John

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But, strangely, not during!
(would that it were)

While it is quite true that a certain Canadian Gold medalist became referred to as a "Jamaican" cheat after failing a drug test at the Olympics, I thought your response to Silken was a little over the top (maybe because no one called her a Swedish cheat).

You failed to mention the particular over the counter popular cold medication contained the banned substance in the country she bought it, whereas it did not contain that same banned substance in other countries. She did not set the suspension and she never claimed innocence, only that it was taken on advice from a team physician. Unlike Ben she didn't fail again.

She was a golden girl in the public's eye, because she had suffered a horrific injury and still raced to a medal.

http://www.cbc.ca/...-tests-positive.html You don't have to listen to all of it just the first minute or so.

Pseudoephedrine is no longer banned by the IOC and hasn't been for the last 10 years.

ps It wasn't the Olympics.

Oh, yes, this is an obvious case of turf padding. The more cases they have the more money they can ask Congress for and the wider their remit.

If they had their way, water would be on the list, as it's a known performance enhancing substance.

Why is DHEA even on the list? Why is marijuana? I'll bet there are dozens of questionable substances on the list. It took years to get asthma meds OFF the list.

This woman did not cheat. She broke the rules, but she didn't cheat. Cheating, at least in this context, means you used a substance that conferred an advantage to endurance athletes.

And about a dozen guys on this forum fall for this bureaucratic bullshit all the time....

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

what is more concerning, the punishment for OTC weak drug that was prescribed in place of full synthetic known PED testosterone gives equal punishment. Drink to many coffees and you maybe considered as evil doper as someone on epo

synthetic wrote:

what is more concerning, the punishment for OTC weak drug that was prescribed in place of full synthetic known PED testosterone gives equal punishment. Drink to many coffees and you maybe considered as evil doper as someone on epo

Caffeine is not prohibited, great try though.

DHEA is inconclusive in "normal" individuals, but shows better results in aging or other situations where T is low.
Body composition certainly improves, in additional to increased sex drive, decreased hot-flashes etc.
And frankly no one argues against clenbuterol, when its main purpose was body-comp, so this isn't much different.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2265.2000.01131.x/abstract?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/07435800009048561

There really isn't much exercise study in aging populations and DHEA.


You know the conversation went like this:

Patient: Doc, I don't feel like I did when I was 30 anymore. I'm tired, I don't recover as well, I have hot flashes.
Doctor: Let me run some tests, oh look, you're low on hormones because of the natural process of aging... take this DHEA and you'll feel better.
Patient: Sign me up!

---

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com

Wow, so you get to define what cheating is? And you get to define which drugs offer a benefit.

..

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

USADA tests where they're either required or requested to do so. They're not required to test at the Pikes Peak Marathon. This was by request.

Per this article.

"Mountain and trail-running races continue to grow in participants and prestige," says Ron Ilgen, President of Pikes Peak Marathon, Inc. Though he says he doubts that any Pikes Peak runners have used PEDs in the past, he believes, "It is important that mountain running joins the ranks with road races in ensuring that our competitors are drug free."

So clearly Ron Ilgen is taking kickbacks from USADA in exchange for letting them "turf pad." And it has nothing to do with ultra-runners having a grass-roots interest in self-policing their sport.

And once Congress hears that USADA has taken on the Pikes Peak Marathon (which no one in Congress has likely ever heard of) with like 500 entrants then the big-time cash is sure to start rolling in.

this is so true. i recently went off maca root as i just didn't think it was doing anything anymore and found "estroven" at Costco and figured i'd try it. it NEVER occurred to me that ingredients could be banned. never crossed my mind....

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

I don't think my response was over the top. Silken was a pro and should have known the rules of engagement. Not sure in another country if the medication is banned or, not, and you can't read the label, then you better not use it. Even age group triathletes going to Kona know better.Silken used the wrong medication and tested positive....this is what we know. Then she back tracked and started pointing to different cold medication boxes. It may have been an honest mistake on her part, but she should be smart enough to know not to play with the fire of taking in anything that COULD put you into a positive test scenario. This applies to Silken, to you, to I, to Kristi who finished 7th at Pikes Peak and anyone going to any race that you can be banned from for taking drugs

...and I can calculate years so maybe the text did not get that across....1995 was the year before the Olympics and she tested positive in a competition that year. Still does not take away that she was a big hopeful for the next year's games. During the Olympics I did cheer for her, but I still did not have much sympathy for her positive test.

dev, seriously? have you been to the womyns forum? we have a number of threads on HRT and addressing menopause symptoms. HRT is pretty much the standard way of treating menopause adn just those of us concerned about estrogen adn breast cancer are on the fence or avoiding HRT. what i'm trying to say is that in menopause HRT (hormone replacement therapy) is the standard and pretty much everyone does it. the only controversy is does estrogen equate to high risk of breast cancer... so saying she knew she needed HRT - well we ALL do once we hit menopause - that is the way pretty much everyone manages their symptoms...

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

As several people have told you, there is no evidence of a benefit to endurance athletes from taking DHEA. If you are fine with USADA making anything it pleases a drug violation then write your Congressman and tell him/her what a good job they are doing keeping such drug scourges as this woman from racing for a year.

USADA should be EMBARRASSED they gave this woman a year suspension. At most, they should have sent her a private letter reprimanding her for taking a drug that confers NO BENEFIT. This penalty reeks of poor judgment and overkill. This is what happens when you give an elephant gun to guys hunting rabbits.... They blow up everything around them including shooting themselves in the foot.

This case should be another nail in the coffin of USADA.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

You should look at the ingredients of *every* supplement. Something called "estroven" would certainly signal an alarm bell with me being one letter removed from "estrogen," and some estrogen-related steroids like estradiol are banned.

USADA has a very helpful site on supplements, and you can also download a list of "high risk" supplements. (which are almost all supplements marketed to the bodybuilding crowd)

Over the years I have read your responses I have always had a good level of respect for your opinion. On this one I am having difficulties.

As for HRT, a few years ago there was an article by a Canadian doctor (don't know why that counts) that started with the idea that any doctor who failed to prescribe HRT should be charged with murder. Menopause is far more devastating for women's health than any perceived "manopause". And that should be recognised by sporting bodies. That most men do not get that is not a surprise.

Which shows why this case helps get the word out that some otc products are banned.

But let's not draw too big of an analogy between your situation and Ms. Anderson's. Are you placing top 10 overall in races that have $10,000 prize purses? Kristi has been, and it was announced during registration that some of those folks would be tested. Which means she had an obligation to her competitors to not consume a substance that could help her performance.

I recognize that some will say the same about you--that you're "cheating someone out of 31st place in your age group." But that's an entirely different argument, and not the issue here.

I also understand the slippery slope argument--that random middle-of-packers will be tested as well. I've come to believe we should worry about that if it starts to happen, even though I haven't always felt that way.

or maybe like this (honestly i have no dog in the fight but it seems like people don't have a clue how debilitating menopause symptoms can be):

pax: doc, i am getting about 2 hours of sleep per night. once i wake up i can't get back to sleep and i have trouble going to sleep in the first place. i have to bring multiple changes of clothing to work because i literally sweat through them in just 1 hot flash (seriously, i work at home and would change my clothing multiple times a day). i have brain fog where i'm worried i'm going to get fired because i no longer can remember people's names let alone work crap.

doc: ah, let me...

pax: and my heart is driving me insane wtih palpitations. i keep thinking i'm going to have a heart attack but i don't have the insurance/funds for a copay to constantly be told "its just menopause". and my husband is ready to leave me - we haven't had sex for 7 months because it just doesn't occur to me anymore and the dryness is debiltating...

doc: ah, HRT!!! YOU NEED HRT!!!

i'll admit this hits close to teh skin because i'm in the midst of 1 year of these "symptoms" and about ready to do HRT but i worry about breast cancer links to HRT... and i used to get sick as a dog when i used to use BCP so there is that too... after you've been dealing with these symptoms for months to years, you too will grasp at any magic a doctor might wave at you.

i don't want to be like i was 30 again but i would like to sleep. i would like to wear the same clothing for more than 2 hours at a time. i would like to workout and be able to recover. i would like to remember things again...

---

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

The rules are the rules. If you do not like them, do another sport until they change.

.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

i agree and i'm looking at them now, but even though i'm aware (i mean i read this forum) it honestly never occurred to me to even check. they're in the vitamin area and it honestly never even occurred to me to check. so it is possible that the same happened to her. especially if it came from her doctor...

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

The threshold limit for psuedoephedrine was 10 micrograms per milliliter in 1995. It's since been increased to 150 micrograms per milliliter, mostly to allow athletes to take the recommended dosage of OTC products to treat colds, etc. The article you linked said that Laumann's concentration was 29 micrograms/milliliter. So, she'd have to take over five times as much Benadryl to exceed the current standard, which would clearly indicate that she wasn't using the drug as it was intended to be used.

USADA doesn't make the list. That's WADA.

DHEA is very clearly on the banned list. The race was very clearly going to be tested. And the she very clearly took DHEA.

The time to complain about the process is *before* you get caught.

I just don't see a lot of athletes complaining about DHEA being on that list. Maybe you can start a Change.org petition asking for WADA to modify their list or asking USADA to selectively enforce? I agree with you about marijuana. That'd get more credibility with me than apologizing for people who get blatantly got doing something blatantly against the rules.

Well, then I guess it's a pretty good thing that most female HRT drugs, including estrogen, are not on WADA's banned substances list.

hmm strange thought caffeine was doping at high doses . I know it is for NCAA:

http://www.kastawayswimwear.com/...l-an-ncaa-drug-test/

Polly like 80% of top athletes are on the gear

[quote kathy_caribei agree and i'm looking at them now, but even though i'm aware (i mean i read this forum) it honestly never occurred to me to even check. they're in the vitamin area and it honestly never even occurred to me to check. so it is possible that the same happened to her. especially if it came from her doctor...[/quote]
I don't know if you have a USAT license or if their license is the same as my USAC license, but I just got mine. Here is what is printed on the back of my license:

USADA Drug Hot Line -
1-866-601-2632 or www.globaldro.org

USADA - www.usada.org
WADA - www.wada-ama.org/en

"My use of this license confirms that I agree to know and abide by the appliciable rules and regulatiosn of USA Cycling and the UCI, including the anti-doping rules and procedures as set forth by USADA, the UCI or WADA and that I agree to submit to any drug test organized under the rules by the UCI, USA Cycling, USADA or the official anti-doping authority of a foreign country where I am competing."

Also, on the tear away portion was an explicit statment that OTC supplements that reads like this:

WARNING: Using any form of dietary supplement may result in a positive test for prohibited

substances leading to a suspension and/or other penalties. Vitamins, minerals, herbs, amino

acids and other dietary supplements may contain prohibited or illegal substances that may or

may not be listed on the label. Any athlete who takes a vitamin, mineral, herb, amino

acid, or other dietary supplement does so at his or her own risk of committing a
doping violation.

I suspect that a USA Triathlon license has the same information on it. Short of visiting every single licensed member I don't know what more they can do to inform their user base.

Putting these words in Google search
USA triathlon supplements

I got a lot of hits for articles on www.usatriathlon.org

The information is out there. If people choose not to read it... Well, we can read their blog postings when they get caught.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

well, i don't live in teh USA, so there is that. :)

---

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

Yes, there have been numerous DUI arrests for people riding bicycles while under the influence of alcohol. There have also been DUI arrests for people riding lawn mowers, golf carts and riding horses.

The real question is could a competitor get busted for having an open container if he or she did have whiskey in their BTA bottle :-D

My 2 cents:

• I find it very hard to believe Anderson was completely naive in this process. Considering her profession and her competitive nature evidenced by her race results history, the thought of "perhaps what I am putting in my body might be a prohibited" had to have at least crossed her mind. This, of course, is pure speculation on my part.
• The ignorance of the law and the "there is no competitive advantage from my perspective" arguments have grown tiresome.
• I think USADA did a great job here. Anderson violated the rules and was caught. The reduction from a 2-year ban to a 1-year ban seems fair considering the facts and circumstances. Anderson's case will hopefully serve as a warning to others and the need for others to educate themselves.
• If Anderson or anyone else wishes to challenge USADA's classification of DHEA as a "substance in the class of Anabolic Agents prohibited under the USADA Protocol for Olympic and Paralympic Movement Testing and the International Association of Athletics Federations (�IAAF�) Anti-Doping Rules," go for it.
• Pike's Peak Marathon is part of the "World Mountain Running Association" (WMRA). The WMRA "comes under the umbrella of IAAF (IAAF Constitution Rule 1)," which means "in all aspects of the WMRA life (and especially during the WMRA events), all IAAF and WADA Rules and Regulations must be respected.." These phrases are posted on their respective websites, which leads me to believe that this race is rather competitive, regardless of the number of entrants. Of course, there are also money prizes involved, which is an incentive for someone to cheat (not that incentives are necessary in all cases), where testing seems warranted.
• USADA has an office in Colorado Springs, which just so happens to be 9 miles away from where the race expo tent is located. I'm guessing someone tipped off USADA, where due to the proximity it was not cost prohibitive to test and bust Anderson for her violation of the rules.
• I wasted way too much time and effort researching and analyzing this matter to provide my two cents.

Mexico right? And yes I'm jealous that you live in Cozumel... But none the less.

http://www.triatlon.com.mx/reglamento_2.html

Specifically.

2. Use of banned substances

a) La FMTRI sanciona el uso de sustancias que artificialmente incrementan el rendimiento. a) The FMTRI sanctions the use of substances that artificially increase performance. Los competidores eguir�n las reglas de dopaje de la ITU (Uni�n Internacional de Triatl�n) ITU DOPING RULES. Competitors eguir�n doping rules ITU (International Triathlon Union) ITU DOPING RULES.

b) Todos los competidores ser�n responsables de informarse y familiarizarse con las reglas de Dopaje de la ITU, incluyendo ex�menes m�dicos de control, obligaciones y procedimientos, castigos y procesos de apelaci�n, as� como conocer las sustancias consideradas prohibidas http://www.wada-ama.org/en/ b) All competitors will be responsible to learn and become familiar with the rules of the ITU Doping, including medical screening tests, obligations and procedures, penalties and appeal processes, and know the substances to be banned http: //www.wada -ama.org/en/

c) La FMTRI tendr� la facultad de realizar pruebas de antidoping en todo momento, apegado a los lineamientos nacionales e internacionales. c) The FMTRI have the power to conduct doping tests at all times, attached to national and international guidelines.

Translated by Bing (because ironically the paste job above was what I saw as english text in Google Translate):

2. Use of banned substances

a) The FMTRI sanctions the use of substances that artificially increase performance. Competitors eguir�n doping rules ITU (International Triathlon Union) ITU DOPING RULES.

b) All competitors will be responsible to learn and become familiar with the rules of the ITU Doping, including medical screening tests, obligations and procedures, penalties and appeal processes, and know the substances to be banned http://www.wada-ama.org/en/

c) The FMTRI have the power to conduct doping tests at all times, attached to national and international guidelines.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

i don't disagree that the FMTRI and USwhateverbody have antidoping standards. In my op i was simply pointing out that it is easy to not even consider that an herbal product you buy at Costco for menopause could have something that you need to check wtih WADA about. i was simply pointing out that it can be very easy to not even consider that you have a banned substance because you don't equate getting vitamins at Costco with doping.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

I would hope anyone going through menopause is not 20 and therefore actually old enough to take responsibility for their actions and also be intelligent enough to research anything they are putting in their body. That includes checking it see if the ingredients are possibly on a banned listed if they happen to participate in a sport. Heck before my first sprint ever years ago with no experience at all and no chance of even doing (ended up 5th in AG go figure) I still checked every single medication I was on. In most cases if you checked the ingredients even on a Wikipedia page it will probably have information linking you to something related to showing where it is banned and why.

While you like everyone is entitled to their opinion, not all opinions are actually good ones, this is one of those times.

That's BS, a good horse week get you back to its stable by itself.

And yet you didn't take the time to read the numerous posts in this very thread that explain how and why drug testing was conducted at this race.

Wrong answer kimosabe:
http://www.cbsnews.com/...e-alcohol-violation/

That line of reasoning works for the average Joe who walks into the local GNC or even your average fun run or tri for fun person. For anybody who is even remotely serious about their sport it is willful ignorance. For somebody who is winning and or placing either overall or in their age group there is just no excuse. The only appropriate response to somebody at that level getting popped is a) I did it and I'm sorry. b) I monitor what I take, it must have been a contaminated supplement, but I understand that the responsibility still lies with me. c) lie like a rug.

Seriously, who does any of us know that is even remotely serious about their sport who hasn't heard of somebody getting popped and then heard all of the lame excuses. How can somebody hear those stories and STILL not even consider that supplements might be contaminated or might having listed ingredients and are illegal or not even think twice about prescribed medicines?

I was 11 in 1972 when Rick DeMont was stripped of his gold medal in swimming for an asthma medication that he took. He had told the USOC which medications he took and they mistakenly told him that they were okay. They were wrong and he lost his gold medal.

http://espn.go.com/...01/0202/1057642.html

My point being that even as an 11 year old I had occasion to become aware of how even prescribed medicines could be considered doping products. ELEVEN. I have no sympathy for a 51 year old woman who competes at a high level for not making herself aware and responsible for what she puts in her body. Zero.

Whether she was activing cheating, trying to illegally take advantage I don't know and don't really care. Athletes have a choice. Take the time to learn what is okay or not or take the time to write your blog post after you test positive where you blame everybody else but yourself.

I've taken the time to learn what is okay and what isn't and I expect my competitors to do so too.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Well said Kevin,

As you say if you are looking at top 10 OA runner or a Kona Q or perhaps a top level AG/masters cyclist, there really isn't any excuse. I am struggling a bit with the emotional context of some of the responses. To me it appears very black and white, she raced, fucked up (whether intentional or inadvertently) got busted and received a ban�.end of story.

She is also playing the victim, when it appears she was afforded a certain amount of leniency for her actions (ban cut in half)

Maurice

All I am saying is that Silken got busted fair and square. It was most likely a mistake, but there is a reason it was banned in the first place (and as some pointed out, the thresholds subsequently raised so she would be fine today, but not back in 95). Silken got really lucky being a golden girl in a sport that was not viewed at the time as being dirty (we're talking 7 years post Dubin inquiry). If Silken was a Canadian track athlete I am certain that the sanction would be stiffer at that time given the recent history. That's just 1 person's opinion and certainly not a fact of any kind. If she was a synchro swimmer, or downhill skier same deal. If she was a weight lifter, wrestler that no one knew of, It would be the full suspension. She was able the leverage her status, her sport and her pedigree to get some leniancy...again, just my opinion on the events of the time.

As for the topic of HRT for women, if the current rule sucks it needs to be modified, but until it is changed Kristi was busted fair and sqaure and if the DHEA allowed her to feel like a 42 year old rather than 51, then maybe that's exactly what WADA does not want. WADA does not want old men nor women on hormone replacement therapy beating young people because young people will use this stuff to beat other young people....so they just ban it all...it is imperfect fpr sure, but where do you draw the line?

It is not hard not to dope.
Her excuses are quite bad. http://masterstrack.com/2014/12/33461/

These days you can have the WADA list as an app on your phone. It is easy to ask your MD about the name of the medication.

My guess is doping for athletes over 40 will increase and many will use the "I got it from my MD" excuse.

Just like Moats did?

.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dev gets really close to it here. To anyone who thinks this is a bad bust, please show where you're working to change the rules. The way i see it, the rules are what they are and she broke them. circumstances be damned.

now, i think a lot of these rules are crap. does anyone want to join me in the letter writing campaign?
/]

Great response.

To Kathy, this entire topic is about pointy end competition. You, I or anyone is more than welcome to take WADA banned substances for general health (directed by our GP etc) but then we relinquish the privilege to race. We can't have our cake and eat it too. You are welcome to go on HRT and not compete or not take HRT and compete. I know the world is not fair, but it they let you or I to take HRT to compete because we are older, where do you draw the line? I fully sympathize with your scenario as there are many women friends and family going through menopause/pre menopause etc....however that does not give them carte blanche to take banned substances and compete...they get to choose one or the other. If this is discrimination against older women (which it likely is), then something needs to be worked out with WADA. Can a TUE be applied for exceptional case use of DHEA? I assume the answer SHOULD be yes.

Were you aware of the TUE process going into the race?
I have never heard of the TUE process. I�m not an elite runner; I�m a middle-aged mom and business owner who loves to run in the mountains.

LOL

I get the feeling that most of the people here have never done a trail running race. They are casual. It is not like triathlon where promoters go out of their way to cater to the fantasies of middle aged Walter Mittys who like to pretend that they are elite. It may come as a surprise that ordinary people who don't have delusions of being pros in another life don't pay attention doping and would be surprised that OTC products are banned.

Yet another utterly incorrect and diversionary comment from Arch.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

"She enjoys competitive running" (her own quote) and is a PT and races hard for podium spots. No fool brother. 2 x LOL. Probably has an albuterol inhaler too for her light cough due to ragweed.

The last MTB race I did, dudes were smoking weed and/or poping nodoze before the race. Silver Rush 50 BTW. So when you say casual you mean less likely to take something?

Casual != $16,000 plus bonuses in prize money.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

just so. it's easy to run in the mountains on your own, without entering a race.. I do it all the time.. Kristi can still run in the mountains, just can't race while doping. Seems an open-and-shut case to me..

Can we revisit the possibility of an elite division and a recreational division in triathlon? I know we've discussed it previously on a few occasions but this seems like a good opportunity. Considering a large percentage of people in triathlon a participants rather than competitors, do we really want to exclude them?

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Formerly DrD

Yes, the rules are crap but the crappy rules are overruled by the crappy indifference of thousands, or worse, the large number of people who would give a non-responsive publicly funded agency unfettered control over their sporting lives. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. USADA and WADA are way out of control, but no one cares. Congress certainly does less oversight than my local police over traffic (which is almost non-existent).

Good luck finding a way to influence USADA. I wrote to my Senator and he wrote back to say he felt we needed an organization like USADA, without addressing any of my concerns. The Senator's dead now, but the USADA lives on.

We should not be spending taxpayers' money to ensure the bourgeois ideal of clean competition for amateur athletes, except possibly Olympic athletes. Do you think the rich are cheating? Do you think people in the ghetto are cheating? And most of the bourgeois are cheating as well. We have a well-developed system of cheating in this country. If you want to stop cheating, then each individual must address his own failings first, but to spend government money to ensure that some triathlete gets his Kona slot is absurd. On this issue I am libertarian, but believe we should be using that money for something much more meaningful, even if it means a few thousand undocumented immigrants get vaccinated, for instance. We really have our priorities screwed up.... DHEA has no ergogenic value. NONE. De natha. There is no justification for it being on the list, and the history of asthma meds, including a USA swimmer losing gold because of a rule that has since been finally changed by an out of control Puritanical drug agency is mind numbing.

I cannot believe people in a supposedly free country actually support such nonsense.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Here you go Robert


[/img]

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

Perhaps I should have wasted more time then, for the following article posted in this thread would have been helpful: http://www.runnersworld.com/...on-adds-drug-testing. Thanks for letting me know I missed something on a ST thread.

On that note, with the publication that testing would be put in place going forward for this race, Anderson probably should have been aware of it. The light bulb should have gone off at some point for her, but it didn't. She failed the test and is suspended for a year; that seems like a fair result for everyone involved.

So a year notice and it was a surprise to anyone?

It is always someone or something else's fault when someone gets caught.

.

---

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

No, but we are a nation of SHEEP, being led by shepherds without a compass, moral or otherwise.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Actually, I'm pretty sure WADA has a compass. It's just pointed in a different direction than yours.

If you want to understand how and why this has happened read "The Age of Acquiescence" by Fraser. Here: http://www.hachettebookgroup.com/...cence/9780316185431/

America is too busy looking a Kim K's tits and ass to give a shit any longer....

Anyway, I'd better stop with the politics as this will get moved to the Lavender Room. So, I'm done....

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

Moats also had a mirror

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Yep, and I have a mirror, so what are you saying?

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I'm saying you're a troll.

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

reminds me of the movie Gone Girl.

---

website/blog | Instagram

Another thing... usada is going after mountain runners... which can have sometimes up to 5 competitors? They should stick focus to those trying for olympics where the doper can embarrass the country

no stone unturned

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website/blog | Instagram

Getting old sucks.

But, none of this is abnormal or unnatural.
So, its a choice to take the medication.

I get it that its no fun, but it is what it is. Unless someone is willing to alter the natural course... then it is whatever you want it to be.

Personally, I'd like to be able to sleep through the night as well, train as much as I did before kids, be as strong as I was in my 20's, have higher bone density so that I wouldn't have broken a hip, wrist and collarbone in the past few years. We all have things we want... but I'm not going to give my kids away or take testosterone to achieve. I'm going to put my head down everyday and do the work with what I have. Everyone has their afflictions.

---

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com

Actually she can. She was not sanctioned for "doping." She was sanctioned for not filling out TUE paperwork beforehand. So she will still be able to race while using a substance with no ergogenic benefit. In fact the PP race director said he will honor her comped entry.

well, sign me up for willful ignorance then since i took 2nd OA at a local tri and always podium in my AG. this is just a hobby for me - a way to keep in shape and stroke my ego when i beat young pups. i really have to laugh at the idea of this being serious because it is so not for me. i don't consider myself an ironman or a triathlete. i am just a mom, really, that is the best label i've ever had. since no-one seems to be able to fathom the idea that a person could walk into a store and pick up a supplement and never have it occur to them that OH SO EVIL, NOW YOU'RE A DOPER, i wanted to raise my hand and say, "yeah, just happened to me." So we'll have to add D to your list: I monitor what i take but it never occurred to me to check the supplement but responsibility lies with me. It is within the realm of possiblitity that this happened to her also but i honestly have no clue.

i simply wanted to voice the opinion and Fact (as it happened to me) that it is possible to have it not occur to you to check your supplements. so, to your last paragraph, here i am but then again, maybe i'm not serious enough.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

i don't believe that HRT falls under any doping stuff but i don't know. perhaps we both misunderstood each other but it seemed to me that you voiced suspicion that she was doping as she knew she needed "hormones" and i just wanted to lyk that HRT is a fact of life for almost each and every pre to post menopausal woman. it is the standard. so that she would know is because it is All Over the Place - OB/GYN, magazines, etc. everyone is on it (well, almost everyone). just like some folks can't believe i don't check each and every product going into my mouth against a WADA list, I can't believe that not everyone knows that almost all western women go on HRT at a certain age.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

Wrong.
She is sanctioned for doping. You do not automatically get a TUE by just filling out paperwork. She used a prohibited substance, that is doping. It is not that hard to follow the rules.
Anderson, 51, tested positive for Dehydroepiandrosterone (�DHEA�) as a result of an in-competition urine sample she provided at the Pikes Peak Marathon held in Colorado Springs, Colo. on August 17, 2014. DHEA is substance in the class of Anabolic Agents prohibited under the USADA Protocol for Olympic and Paralympic Movement Testing and the International Association of Athletics Federations (�IAAF�) Anti-Doping Rules, both of which have adopted the World Anti-Doping Code and the World Anti-Doping Agency Prohibited List.
http://www.usada.org/us-track-field-athlete-anderson-accepts-sanction-rule-violation/

Thanks for the compliment.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

They are also brutally competitive at the same time. Among the top 5% of bigger races like this it's absolutely not a fun run. People are there to win. I hope my handle gives me some trail-cred.

Anyone that says a trail run is only full of folks who do not care about winning, times, etc are just, well,...

Races are races, period. No matter what the event is.

Now, maybe ping pong is casual? Or dart throwing? Or bowling?

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Um, bullshit. She was sanctioned for doping.

http://www.usada.org/...g/results/sanctions/

Kristi Anderson
Track & Field12-month suspension - Loss of ResultsDehydroepiandrosterone (�DHEA�) 12/23/2014

You are just rationalizing what she did. If I get pulled over for speeding on a road that is unfamilar to me and I didn't see the speed limit sign, I'll get cited for speeding, not for failure to read the speed limit sign.

WADA/USADA doesn't and shouldn't care about intent, you get sanctioned for what you DID. I'm all for them going easy in certain circumstances, but her ignorance of the rules doesn't negate the fact that she had an illegal substance in her system.

I would agree that she probably isn't a "doper". i.e. she doesn't take DHEA with the purpose of cheating in mind. But it was still in her system and she should have known better.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

To Kathy, this entire topic is about pointy end competition. You, I or anyone is more than welcome to take WADA banned substances for general health (directed by our GP etc) but then we relinquish the privilege to race. We can't have our cake and eat it too.

I agree, with a caveat. If you're a middle to back of pack triathlete who is in it more for the participatory experience than as a competition, then while the rules still apply, not too many people are really going to care all that much.

What if these folks are drafting, getting outside assistance, etc? So the rules only are good for the front folks?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I'll give you a "hell yeah!!!!!"
well said. I smiled when you said the Senator died. thanks

Do you really care what an individual does, in a race that you are in, whom you beat by 30 minutes, 60 minutes, 90 minutes? Really!?! And you use "the mirror" ? God, you are a troll.

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"one eye doubles my eyesight, so things don't look half bad" John Hiatt

Was she up for any monetary compensation?

If not, then this is complete B.S. If so, then I guess they have to throw the rule book at her.

It should be ok for someone 50+ to be taking DHEA, that is not the same as taking EPO or blood transfusions. There are some actual health benefits to someone 50+. If she's competing for the sake of keeping motivated, then who cares?

Here is the problem...she is 51 and finished 7th. What is stopping a 25 year old to use the same drugs as she used to better her training and finish in 6th rather than 15th...and then what stops the 27 year old who was in 8th from using said drugs to now take the win. I am not saying this will happen, but you can't draw the line that easily. It might be essential for someone in their 50's for better quality of life, but it creates a slippery slope when it comes to racing....so the options are, "no drugs and ya get to race" or take whatever drugs you want for your health, but no racing. As a 50 year old, when you choose to race, you do it under the same set of rules as the 20 year old. Sadly that might mean making a choice to sacrifice optimal health and quality of life available through banned pills, injections or cremes, and if your body is not what it once was, those are the cards that you have to deal with when it comes to racing.

mcmetal wrote:

It should be ok for someone 50+ to be taking DHEA, that is not the same as taking EPO or blood transfusions. There are some actual health benefits to someone 50+. If she's competing for the sake of keeping motivated, then who cares?

"DHEA supplements are used by some people who believe they can improve sex drive, build muscle, fight the effects of aging, and improve some health conditions. But there isn't much evidence for many of these claims"


"DHEA supplements are sometimes used by athletes because of a claim that it can improve muscle strength and enhance athletic performance. That's because DHEA is a "prohormone" -- a substance that can increase the level of steroid hormones such as testosterone. There is little evidence to show that DHEA has any effect on enhancing muscle strength. Its use is banned by sports organizations such as the National Football League, Major League Baseball, and the National Collegiate Athletic Association."


http://www.webmd.com/diet/dhea-supplements

Rules are rules. If you think you need DHEA (or testosterone, EPO, etc.) to live a full and rewarding life, you can still swim/bike/run, just not at a sanctioned race.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

3 places out of the money.

But I'm not sure prize money is a good way to determine who should be tested. There's no prize money at the Olympics or many national championships.






That could be argued. It does seem excessive, and probably expensive, to test the full WADA list when really only maybe half a dozen things are what we really care about. But this doesn't excuse the runner from taking them when they *are* on the list.

Why is it so hard to follow the rules?

Pro dopers can create their own events instead of complaining about testing in events that are sanctioned.

Bam, I am libertarian also and it is shit like this that blows my mind......can't find money to fix a bridge over the Mississippi but HELL ya we can find some to bust that old lady runner!! I'm a great AMERICAN!

You understand that the race, not USADA, paid for the testing, right?

but doesn't the race kick up to USA_____ which kicks up to USADA which kicks up to WADA .......

and USADA does get some gub'mnt money, doesn't it?

Do you really think that all the costs (100%) are coverd by the race promoter? If they are then why do we need the usada?

And the race director already invited her back. No one gives a shit except the some 10 idiots on ST. Enjoy your pity party.

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Instagram

There are all kinds of rules and not just for PED. Technology rules, drafting rules, etc. If there weren't rules, then the race and sports in general could evolve into a "Mad Max" version of racing where anything goes to win. The "rules" might not be that out of whack as other sports and players in those sports want rules too. Even cheaters want rules so they can selectively violate rules that they think they can get away while appearing innocent. Even cheaters don't want racing to get "out of hand".

There is something about the mentality of cheaters and those that uphold their right to cheat that is incredulous to me. If we made races available to cheaters would they stay in those races or would they still feel the need to go to rule following races to have the bragging rights and satisfaction of beating those people too?

As an older AGer, who finds that people above 40 have discovered PEDs to beat me, racing is disappointing. Guess I'll just time trial alone and get personal satisfaction from the times I achieve while training and avoid the time and cost of a race and Kevin Moats gloating over me as one of the ten or more in his age group that he beats. The only thing I would be missing is the good company of some other AGers; yet, maybe I could invite them up to my course for training/time trialing purposes.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

Boy do I agree it makes me sick to see Moats name in the USAT rankings!

I also agree that the number of older folks that are taking something is sickening. Luckily I know a number of top older racers that I believe are racing clean.
But I also know a number that it just does not seem possible they can have the body they have at their age without some extra help. Again, Moats is
a great example of this.

But at the end of the day, who cares. They have to live with themselves. I just try to beat them with hard work and luck.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Question: Would the fact that she took DHEA mask the possibility that she was also taking testosterone and/or other steroids? One of the links said that her physician was treating her for low DHEA, low testosterone, and low estrogen. I had never heard of DHEA before a few days ago, but google tells me that is it primarily used as a masking agent for testosterone.

As a slight aside- I think this guy is hysterical.

http://www.bing.com/...BAA66C827CD734746A4A

DHEA is an androgen.
DHEA is 2 enzymatic steps away from testosterone.
DHEA is metabolized to androstenedione or androstenediol, then to testosterone.

The debate here should be, is hormone replacement therapy, which has recently increased dramatically in popularity, acceptable for male or female athletes?
I do not see why it is really debatable why DHEA might be considered to be at least potentially beneficial, by anyone with a basic knowledge of steroidogenesis.

Why should it be acceptable for any athletes (I don't care what age). the entire point of age group competition is to see who slows down less than the other peers in the age group. The guy or gal whose body slows down less compared to peer as a result of good and smart training, natural recovery and good genetics is the one who should be winning. This might be a different picture for the same 2 athletes who competed with each other at 25 when then are 50. The guy or girl who was faster may not be faster now, because of genetics and also because of bad lifestyle choices over the ensuing decades.....the person who made the right choices should have the advantage and not end up losing to someone who gets "enhanced" chemically.

I just do not get these folks that think they should be 25 in a 50 year old body. Great, do what you want, just do not race. Clearly, these folks have other issues to deal with.

And folks like Moats, should be a lifetime ban, period. This, but the doc says I needed excuse, is a joke. He was not a pro. He was not putting food on his table. He just had
an ego to stroke. Now Lance, I consider different, but, ...



.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Now we get into a discussion of having CAT system vs AG silliness

For cost, I can't know for sure, but I believe so based on what I've read about USADA. They generally don't work for free. They work on contract with the governing bodies of various sports.

For your second question, it depends on who you mean by "we." USOC has decided that USADA is the testing authority for all the U.S. Olympic/PanAm/Paralympic sports. So if you're athlete holding a license in one of those sports, USADA is responsible for testing you.

Leagues or sport not under the USOC umbrella can contract with other testing labs. E.g. professional boxing uses USADA, I believe, but doesn't have to. Some amateur cycling districts use USADA, but don't have to. The race director in question here could have used someone else. He apparently chose USADA.

What if a race only has a handful of "participants" in an older age group?

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Formerly DrD

The sad reality is that more and more folks will be getting "hormone optimization" therapy in the coming years. Many of these folks won't think of it as doping (esp. since their doctor recommended it) and will have no idea that this could be an issue at their local tri or marathon.

Why not just have a category for such people? They can race, but can't win any awards of KQ/BQ/etc. They get a "NC" on their race number and calf, so others know they are not in the competitive mix.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

I've proposed this numerous times in numerous doping related threads. The hardcore guys insist on calling it the "doping" division rather than an elite division vs recreational division.

They would rather those participants just stay home. They'll be the same ones bitching when there are less and less races available due to low attendance.

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Formerly DrD

So you're saying that entire races will be cancelled because the vast majority of athletes would prefer to take banned substances rather than race? And if that happens, it's the fault of those who choose not to take banned substances?

I don't think your assessment is realistic, though, because it assumes that the the vast majority of people who prioritize drugs also prioritize honesty, and would adhere strictly to the rules....so far the evidence doesn't bear that out....

Lots of these people aren't trying to enhance their performance (some have been encouraged by their doctor to take T, some may take Sudafed the night before a race because they feel sick, some may be on corticosteriods due to an injury); as you point out, they just want to do the event. I really do differentiate them from Moats, etc. who are trying cheat their way to victory.

I'd also do it as a non-competitive category.....just to avoid a "free for all" category.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

You are making my point on the hardcore, all or nothing mentality. I'm saying a huge percentage of people at races are participants not competitors. They are doing this as a fun, challenging and healthy activity. They are not interested in placing, podiums or qualifying for anything. It doesn't mean they want to take PEDs.

This doesn't relate to the original topic of this thread because I agree she should have known but I would guess that most people entering sanctioned races have no clue about the banned lists or the possibility of being tested. If they did they may not enter races. That can affect attendance.

Why can't a recreational division work? Only those in the elite division or whatever you want to call it are eligible for prizes, qualifying, etc. and are open to being drug tested. Everyone else is there to participate, much like a century ride.

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Formerly DrD

I don't have an issue with a competition category under WADA rules and a rec category. But the rec category should ideally not have times/splits etc. You just get a finisher medal. If not, what happens is you get a bunch of guys in the rec division doped to the gills beating people in the WADA approved category. I suppose that is fine to some degree, but if you want do that, list the results separately....example would be

Ironman Tremblant Competition Race <link1>
Ironman Tremblant Citizen Event <link2>

Keep the results separate and start the Citizen/Rec wave entirely separately. For example if the water temp is between 76F and 82F and you choose to use a wetsuit, you also end up in the Citizen Category. Taking this back to the original topic, this also solves the problem for athletes like Kristi who want to violate WADA rules, and be technically doped and want to just run in the Mountains at Pikes Peak. Well, she can enter the Citizen Event.

Dev

Absolutely separate starts. Separate timing and splits for everyone is fine too. It's the same as the current pro vs AG times we have now. Completely different race with different tactics. Other than egos being hurt, I don't see a problem if a rec division participant has a fast time. They're not winning anything and not taking anyone's spot qualifying for championship events. If you race the citizen division, do well and want to step up to the competitive ranks you better do your homework and be prepared for the possibility of being tested.

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Formerly DrD

A race could have a handful of AG dopers getting recognition and KQ because why bother entering if the bar is a 25yr old result for a +50yr old athlete? MOP AGers could stay at home and time trial for feedback rather than add legitimacy to a race or sport that doesn't care.

As a 60yr old triathlete who is a MOP, if a doctor recommended something to boost my "lifestyle" performance, I would know that would also help me at races. We weren't born yesterday. AGers are also tempted and rewarded by the recognition as much as anyone. It might be even more tempting because of your "age" and there are only a "handful" of others to beat. It's also an ego boost to beat younger punks too.

+1 to paul_d's comments that we are trying to determine how +50yr old athletes do without PE Drugs. If PEDs are the way to go, we could have races for athletes openly using PEDs without penalty. It's just that those openly using PEDs can not compete in "clean" races. Would a handful of people be honest enough to show up for a PED race?

Perhaps the mentality of these cheaters and their defenders is that they do want "clean" races with some rules that aren't monitored so they can selectively choose which rules to break without penalty and without the chaos of having no rules.

As swimmers, bikers and runners we discredit someone who cuts a corner (knowingly or unknowingly) in a race. Doping is almost like a "white collar" crime that many tolerate and don't want to address. Even "white collar" crime is bad for business though.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

That might work fine.

The race director, in this case, effectively did exactly what you suggest. . He only contracted with USADA to randomly test the top 10. He clearly didn't want to trouble recreational runners. Just happens that this Kristi made the top 10. She's sort of in a gray area. Pretty good trail runner. More than "recreational," but certainly not "elite." She was sort of the worst-case scenario publicity-wise for the race director and USADA. I have a hard time faulting USADA. They were told to randomly test the top 10, and they did. They can't just shove an inconvenient positive under the carpet and pretend it didn't happen. (Carl Lewis...) The race director probably had a "be careful what you wish for" moment. When USADA tests they bring their full arsenal. There's no "USADA-light." No separate line for 50 year-old women in menopause. It could be argued there should be. But there isn't. I fully agree that if we can create some reasonable definition for "recreational," it's not a bad idea. I also think it'd be a good idea to create a "WADA-light" test that only tests for the heavy-hitter drugs. The big-time anabolic steroids, EPO, and hGH. That would lower the cost significantly and make life much simpler for women in menopause, etc.

"All of that said, I do think it would be reasonable to have a smaller list of banned substances, if not for everyone, then at least for non professionals. Especially all the recreational drugs with no performance benefit. "

I think it's just patently obvious that we shouldn't have the same anto-doping rules for 19 year old elites as we do for 55 year old amateurs.


This specific case is a little out of bounds, as you mentioned dhea doesn't seem to have documented effects on performance.


My take is that for non elite world championship competition, smaller banned list and different tue process. The tue process for testosterone is well known and involve sprimary hypogonadism, meaning you have to identify which particular gland flat out doesn't work, a general low T level isn't enough. For amateurs I'd be totally fine with exogenous testoasterone being allowed as long as the person's T level wasn't above the median level for men his age. I realize that this would mean many would take T right up to the level, not optimal but better than taking a healthful hobby away from a person with poor health.

My basic understanding is that a lot of the cost is collection (human capitol, and observing standard protocol) not testing the samples. Having said that a "WADA-light" test would be urine only, I *think* that you could get EPO, HGH and most anabolic compounds from that.

Urine only also makes collection more efficient and faster (no nurses or doctors required for blood collection) IE more potential "through put" or more samples per dollar.

Maybe someone else can chime in, I believe the main reason to test blood is for bio passport purposes. Profiling etc, or catching the idiots who accidentally take someone else's blood (Hamilton) Not sure, but this doesn't make sense to me for AG athletes�.If you ar sonly getting one blood sample every couple of years or longer then how do you create a profile?

Maurice

I have no sympathy for Kristi. She should have known better, especially with her professional background and racing experience. USADA absolutely did their job.

This thread got off track morphing into a triathlon doping discussion. This is a complicated issue but I think the competition and citizen/recreational division idea has real merit.

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Formerly DrD

She was being disingenuous by saying she's not an elite runner. She wins categories. She wins prizes. She wins cash. That's pretty elite.

And as forTrail Loving Middle Aged Mom - wasn't Armstrong a Road Loving Middle Aged Dad ?

Caught bang to rights. If she's gone to the effort of getting treatment she surely would have thought - can I take these ?

If folks are cheating today taking drugs, does anyone think these folks would admit it and just race with no rewards? No way, their egos are too large.

And I loved your comment that AG's are not about what a 50 year old can do being pumped full of drugs and the body performs like 25, it is about
who had the luck as we have gotten older to still perform. This is the level playing field. Not trying to say the doc said take this because it will improve
your quality of like to make you feel like 25 again, this is a joke. But this is what so many folks have convinced themselves that this is totally legit.

Yep, going to get much worse which is why I try to just do this sport for fun, since I cannot compete against the Moats types all drugged up.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

first off, i'm no doctor but I just googled HRT and found:

"Use of hormone therapy changed abruptly when a large clinical trial found that the treatment actually posed more health risks than benefits for one type of hormone therapy, particularly when given to older postmenopausal women. As the concern about health hazards attributed to hormone therapy grew, doctors became less likely to prescribe it.
Hormone therapy is no longer recommended for disease prevention, such as heart disease or memory loss. However, further review of clinical trials and new evidence show that hormone therapy may be a good choice for certain women, depending on their risk factors.
Women who experience an early menopause, particularly those who had their ovaries removed and don't take estrogen therapy until at least age 45, have a higher risk of:

• Osteoporosis
• Coronary heart disease (CHD)
• Earlier death
• Parkinsonism (Parkinson's-like symptoms)
• Dementia
• Anxiety or depression
• Sexual function concerns"

from the Mayo Clinic."

so it really isn't a case of trying to regain that 25yo body but instead combat bone loss, heart disease, death, parkinsonism, dementia, psychiatric issues and sexual function. TBH i'm a little surprised at this info as the last time i looked into this HRT was really being pushed. Also, from what i remember and read, the hormones being replaced in HRT are only estrogen and progesterone. i haven't looked but i can't imagine any athletic improvements with those hormones.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

Kathy, what you are not getting is that age group competition is about racing peers as we naturally age along with all the bad and ugly that comes with aging. When the natural aging process is altered chemically (and that is fine for general health reasons), it alters the age group competition. Suddenly you may be in 55-59 but you're effectively racing people who should be in 40-44 because they have chemically reversed their bodies aging with outside chemical assistance. As I said, it is entirely fine to take the chemicals that people may feels gives them a better quality of life. But please don't enter a competition. It is pretty simple. I don't think anyone on this thread has a beef with taking the drugs if they feel they can get better quality of life, but you can't have better quality of life and the fast race times that magically come with then. You can take the drugs and jack up your FTP or your times at the track working out with yourself or your buddies. Just don't show up to a race that falls under the WADA umbrella. I think we all get that no one at 50 or higher will end up with the body of a 25 year old...that was an extreme example, but thing are being done by many athletes under the "prescription of their doctors" that gets them partially there...and they think because their docs say it is cool for general health, then it is not cheating in racing. It is cheating in racing. Put me on testosterone and at least my swim and bike times will be just as fast as when I was 25 and I'll actually be able to do more training than I could then. My run may not be quite there, but suddenly I am swimming faster, biking faster, higher FTP, so getting to T2 more fresh, and probably run a touch faster. Suddenly across the board, I'm going way faster. But that's not how it works for legal racing. If 50 year old guys think it is cool to be on T therapy because the doc saying they are low, maybe they should race in 25-29 or 30-34 or pro and see how things go.

The rules say you cannot take the stuff. So I do not understand why all the emotion? We have a choice if we want to do things. Whether it is rules, cost, locations, etc. we have a choice.
So why is this so hard. You look at the rules, and decide if one wants to either follow them, or just do something else. We can all argue until we are blue in the face whether a certain rule
is good or bad, whether it helps a performance or not, but bottom line there are a known set of rules before someone signs up for a race. There is no right to race. It is just a hobby , sport
something that does not put food on the table.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Those that you mentioned would race in the competitive division and would be eligible to be tested. It may take a little education to have those racers fully aware of the implications but they couldn't claim ignorance. You are looking at the pointy end of the field not the 90% + that are there participating and couldn't care less about anything more than that. There is room in this sport for both.

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Formerly DrD

So, does this work in body building which I believe has 2 divisions?

This issue is one that will never be "solved" since so many think if the doc says I need it, it is not cheating.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Outstanding summary. So simple, but it seems so many just do not understand. I want to race against old guys as nature provided, not folks who have jacked up their bodies.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

For about the millionth time, Sudafed is NOT a banned substance.

S9. GLUCOCORTICOIDS All glucocorticoids are prohibited when administered by oral, intravenous, intramuscular or rectal routes.

i.e. you can take a nasal spray for allergies, but you can get a shot for an injury. And seriously how can getting a steroid shot for an injury before a race NOT be a huge red flag that maybe this is not legal for racing? If you are a "recreational" athlete why do you need to get a steroid shot so you can race? That is pretty non-recreational behavior. A recreational athlete would just not race if they were injured wouldn't they?

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Point taken on Sudafed (fwiw take it as emblematic of common MRDs that might contain a banned substance that is not obvious to the user).

As for taking corticosteroids before a race, it could be for an unrelated injury (ex. a tennis player treating an arm injury who had also signed up to do the local marathon). Also there are lots of TNT types who train to complete (not compete), and who would seek treatment so they could do the event they trained for (and probably don't even consider that this might be "cheating").

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

no i totally get that but I'm not of the opinion that HRT is doping or illegal in any way. you're going to make me actually look at WADA now, and PubMed to see if there have been studies with any correlation between HRT and athletic improvement so off i go. You actually made me research HRT again (and that was a good thing because i've been holding out for that magic "fix" only to find now that the risks outweigh the benefits so thanks for bursting that hope bubble for me. :)) so this thread has been very helpful personally. however, i can't see the viewpoint that taking QOL meds for treatable issues is equivalent with doping. for me, this sport is just a hobby and my QOL and family come first. i understand your passion but i don't agree.

okay, do i have the right link? http://list.wada-ama.org/...earch&s=estrogen http://list.wada-ama.org/...h&s=progesterone i'm coming up empty for HRT hormones...

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