Re: Power above FTP [Trev] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 8:47

Post #76 of 172 (4808 views)

Trev wrote:

You said, "Sustained power output reflects the length of time an athlete can put out a level of power without a noticeable degradation or decline in such power- statistically speaking, a point of deflection. Although again such changes actually happen gradually on a continuum and not really abruptly, such a point can typically be seen in in most athletes power duration and mean maximal power curves for hard, steady-state efforts lasting around an hour. It can therefore be modeled as a downward kink in the tail of the p... such a point can typically be seen in in most athletes power duration and mean maximal power curves for hard, steady-state efforts lasting around an hour. It can therefore be modeled as a downward kink in the tail of the powner duration curve."

" such a point can typically be seen in most athletes power duration mean maximal power curves for hard, steady state efforts lasting around an hour."

Source?

(I suspect that is something somebody else wrote, then stuck my name on to try to add "street cred".)

Re: Power above FTP [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 8:57

Post #77 of 172 (4800 views)

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/...-in-wko4/&page=2

Andrew Coggan

UCI Legal
Advanced
639
2,940 posts

Posted August 6, 2016
"exercise physiologists tend to often use the term threshold (or sometimes even lactate threshold) to generically refer an individuals metabolic fitness. The term threshold is used because even though with increasing exercise intensity changes in substrate metabolism occur on a continuum, there comes a point (or exercise intensity) at which your bodys metabolic responses change significantly and measurably."

"Sustained power output reflects the length of time an athlete can put out a level of power without a noticeable degradation or decline in such power- statistically speaking, a point of deflection. Although again such changes actually happen gradually on a continuum and not really abruptly, such a point can typically be seen in in most athletes power duration and mean maximal power curves for hard, steady-state efforts lasting around an hour. It can therefore be modeled as a downward kink in the tail of the power duration curve."

[/url]Andrew Coggan

UCI Legal

Andrew Coggan wrote:

Trev wrote:

You said, "Sustained power output reflects the length of time an athlete can put out a level of power without a noticeable degradation or decline in such power- statistically speaking, a point of deflection. Although again such changes actually happen gradually on a continuum and not really abruptly, such a point can typically be seen in in most athletes power duration and mean maximal power curves for hard, steady-state efforts lasting around an hour. It can therefore be modeled as a downward kink in the tail of the p... such a point can typically be seen in in most athletes power duration and mean maximal power curves for hard, steady-state efforts lasting around an hour. It can therefore be modeled as a downward kink in the tail of the powner duration curve."

" such a point can typically be seen in most athletes power duration mean maximal power curves for hard, steady state efforts lasting around an hour."

Source?

(I suspect that is something somebody else wrote, then stuck my name on to try to add "street cred".)

Last edited by: Trev: May 19, 18 8:58

Re: Power above FTP [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 9:00

Post #78 of 172 (4795 views)

Obviously you just wanted to gain street cred, or sell copies of WKO4.

Andrew Coggan wrote:

Trev wrote:

You said, "Sustained power output reflects the length of time an athlete can put out a level of power without a noticeable degradation or decline in such power- statistically speaking, a point of deflection. Although again such changes actually happen gradually on a continuum and not really abruptly, such a point can typically be seen in in most athletes power duration and mean maximal power curves for hard, steady-state efforts lasting around an hour. It can therefore be modeled as a downward kink in the tail of the p... such a point can typically be seen in in most athletes power duration and mean maximal power curves for hard, steady-state efforts lasting around an hour. It can therefore be modeled as a downward kink in the tail of the powner duration curve."

" such a point can typically be seen in most athletes power duration mean maximal power curves for hard, steady state efforts lasting around an hour."

Source?

(I suspect that is something somebody else wrote, then stuck my name on to try to add "street cred".)

Re: Power above FTP [Trev] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 9:02

Post #79 of 172 (4793 views)

Trev wrote:

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/113332-time-to-exhaustion-in-wko4/&page=2

Andrew Coggan wrote:

Trev wrote:

You said, "Sustained power output reflects the length of time an athlete can put out a level of power without a noticeable degradation or decline in such power- statistically speaking, a point of deflection. Although again such changes actually happen gradually on a continuum and not really abruptly, such a point can typically be seen in in most athletes power duration and mean maximal power curves for hard, steady-state efforts lasting around an hour. It can therefore be modeled as a downward kink in the tail of the p... such a point can typically be seen in in most athletes power duration and mean maximal power curves for hard, steady-state efforts lasting around an hour. It can therefore be modeled as a downward kink in the tail of the powner duration curve."

" such a point can typically be seen in most athletes power duration mean maximal power curves for hard, steady state efforts lasting around an hour."

Source?

(I suspect that is something somebody else wrote, then stuck my name on to try to add "street cred".)

Yup:

https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/...TimetoExhaustion.pdf

To be specific: the only part of this article to which I contributed is the section entitled "What does threshold mean?" Tim wrote everything else (which is why the article refers to me in the third person both before and after that section).

(Again, the 'tell' here is the way I am listed as an author, i.e., as Dr. Andrew Coggan.)

Re: Power above FTP [Trev] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 9:07

Post #80 of 172 (4787 views)

Trev wrote:

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/...-in-wko4/&page=2

??

Nowhere in there did I say anything about a downward deflection in power at around the 1 h mark.

In fact, I have repeatedly pointed out that any such deflection is a statistical artifact (necessity) engendered by assuming the existence of an absolute plateau in power (e.g., the CP model).

ETA: Emphasis added to counter the Trev reality distortion field.

Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: May 19, 18 9:41

Re: Power above FTP [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 9:12

Post #81 of 172 (4795 views)

Andrew, I did not post that, I posted a link to timetriallingforum. You have lied and posted another link in a pathetic effort to cover up the fact you have been exposed. I have posted it again. Your attempt to make it look as if the commemts come from TrainingPeaks and claim TimCusack wrote it are pathetic. the commemts were posted by you on timetriallingforum.

Andrew Coggan
UCI Legal

Andrew Coggan
Advanced
639
2,940 posts
Posted August 6, 2016
"exercise physiologists tend to often use the term threshold (or sometimes even lactate threshold) to generically refer an individuals metabolic fitness. The term threshold is used because even though with increasing exercise intensity changes in substrate metabolism occur on a continuum, there comes a point (or exercise intensity) at which your bodys metabolic responses change significantly and measurably."

"Sustained power output reflects the length of time an athlete can put out a level of power without a noticeable degradation or decline in such power- statistically speaking, a point of deflection. Although again such changes actually happen gradually on a continuum and not really abruptly, such a point can typically be seen in in most athletes power duration and mean maximal power curves for hard, steady-state efforts lasting around an hour. It can therefore be modeled as a downward kink in the tail of the power duration curve."
Andrew Coggan
UCI Legal

Andrew Coggan

Andrew Coggan wrote:

Trev wrote:

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php?/topic/113332-time-to-exhaustion-in-wko4/&page=2

Andrew Coggan wrote:

Trev wrote:

You said, "Sustained power output reflects the length of time an athlete can put out a level of power without a noticeable degradation or decline in such power- statistically speaking, a point of deflection. Although again such changes actually happen gradually on a continuum and not really abruptly, such a point can typically be seen in in most athletes power duration and mean maximal power curves for hard, steady-state efforts lasting around an hour. It can therefore be modeled as a downward kink in the tail of the p... such a point can typically be seen in in most athletes power duration and mean maximal power curves for hard, steady-state efforts lasting around an hour. It can therefore be modeled as a downward kink in the tail of the powner duration curve."

" such a point can typically be seen in most athletes power duration mean maximal power curves for hard, steady state efforts lasting around an hour."

Source?

(I suspect that is something somebody else wrote, then stuck my name on to try to add "street cred".)

Yup:

https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/...TimetoExhaustion.pdf

To be specific: the only part of this article to which I contributed is the section entitled "What does threshold mean?" Tim wrote everything else (which is why the article refers to me in the third person both before and after that section).

(Again, the 'tell' here is the way I am listed as an author, i.e., as Dr. Andrew Coggan.)

Last edited by: Trev: May 19, 18 9:21

Re: Power above FTP [Trev] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 9:39

Post #82 of 172 (4778 views)

Trev wrote:

You have lied

You are the one attempting to distort reality here, Trev.

Anyone who follows this link to the time trialing forum:

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/...&comment=1561043

will see that I was I quoting the article that Tim wrote. That's why there are quote marks around the words.

It is also worth noting that:

1) that entire thread is about TTE, which exists only as a result of assuming an absolute plateau in power, and hence a downward 'kink', and

2) I have repeatedly emphasized that even when making this assumption, it is difficult to estimate TTE with any real precision.

IOW, this is just another one of your attempts to put words in my mouth. Is it any wonder that you are so widely known as 'Trev the Troll"?

Re: Power above FTP [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 10:29

Post #83 of 172 (4753 views)

You posted it. You quoted it because that is your opinion. You wrote the article with Tim Cusick. You quoted yourself. It is your WKO4 model. The article clearly states it is written by both of you. If you don't agree with it why did you post it?

You have a habit of blaming co authors, you blame Hunter Allen for things in your book and now you blame Tim Cusick.

Are you now claiming you don't agree with the words you posted and don't agree with the article?

Andrew Coggan wrote:

Trev wrote:

You have lied

You are the one attempting to distort reality here, Trev.

Anyone who follows this link to the time trialing forum:

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/...&comment=1561043

will see that I was I quoting the article that Tim wrote. That's why there are quote marks around the words.

It is also worth noting that:

1) that entire thread is about TTE, which exists only as a result of assuming an absolute plateau in power, and hence a downward 'kink', and

2) I have repeatedly emphasized that even when making this assumption, it is difficult to estimate TTE with any real precision.

IOW, this is just another one of your attempts to put words in my mouth. Is it any wonder that you are so widely known as 'Trev the Troll"?

Last edited by: Trev: May 19, 18 10:31

Re: Power above FTP [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 11:16

Post #84 of 172 (4728 views)

Just so people don't miss this, you claimed the commemts were posted by someone else who put your name on it to gain street cred. But when it is shown you posted it yourself all by yourself, you claim it is quoted from an article written by you and Tim Cusick. No wonder TrainingPeaks dumped you.

I didn't put words in your mouth, you posted it, you co authored it.

Andrew Coggan wrote:

Trev wrote:

You said, "Sustained power output reflects the length of time an athlete can put out a level of power without a noticeable degradation or decline in such power- statistically speaking, a point of deflection. Although again such changes actually happen gradually on a continuum and not really abruptly, such a point can typically be seen in in most athletes power duration and mean maximal power curves for hard, steady-state efforts lasting around an hour. It can therefore be modeled as a downward kink in the tail of the p... such a point can typically be seen in in most athletes power duration and mean maximal power curves for hard, steady-state efforts lasting around an hour. It can therefore be modeled as a downward kink in the tail of the powner duration curve."

" such a point can typically be seen in most athletes power duration mean maximal power curves for hard, steady state efforts lasting around an hour."

Source?

(I suspect that is something somebody else wrote, then stuck my name on to try to add "street cred".)

Last edited by: Trev: May 19, 18 11:20

Re: Power above FTP [Trev] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 11:22

Post #85 of 172 (4723 views)

Trev wrote:

you claimed the commemts were posted by someone else

No, I said that it sounded like something that was written by somebody else...and it turns out I was right.

Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: May 19, 18 11:23

Re: Power above FTP [Trev] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 11:26

Post #86 of 172 (4716 views)

Trev wrote:

You posted it. You quoted it because that is your opinion. You wrote the article with Tim Cusick. You quoted yourself. It is your WKO4 model. The article clearly states it is written by both of you. If you don't agree with it why did you post it?

You have a habit of blaming co authors, you blame Hunter Allen for things in your book and now you blame Tim Cusick.

No, I quoted it to help people understand how TTE is calculated/what it mathematically represents.

Unfortunately, I can't stop trolls like you from trying to take that out of context, any more than I can force others to write with perfect clarity about my ideas.

Re: Power above FTP [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 11:27

Post #87 of 172 (4715 views)

Andrew Coggan wrote:

Trev wrote:

you claimed the commemts were posted by someone else

No, I said that it sounded like something that was written by somebody else...and it turns out I was right.

No you said,

Source?

(I suspect that is something somebody else wrote, then stuck my name on to try to add "street cred".)

Re: Power above FTP [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 11:59

Post #88 of 172 (4703 views)

Andrew Coggan wrote:

Trev wrote:

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/...-in-wko4/&page=2

??

Nowhere in there did I say anything about a downward deflection in power at around the 1 h mark.

In fact, I have repeatedly pointed out that any such deflection is a statistical artifact (necessity) engendered by assuming the existence of an absolute plateau in power (e.g., the CP model).

ETA: Emphasis added to counter the Trev reality distortion field.

So are you saying the article you co authored is wrong and there is no downward deflection in power at around the hour mark?

Re: Power above FTP [Trev] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 15:05

Post #89 of 172 (4647 views)

I think you should change your screen name from 'Trev' to 'Stalker that doesn't have a clue'.

Yeah, that is a personal attack, but so is almost every single one of your posts.

Please post up something about the topic at hand, because at the moment it is only a topic you simply don't understand and choose to attack those that do understand, not the science behind it.

Re: Power above FTP [Trev] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 15:07

Post #90 of 172 (4645 views)

Then keep reading his book and look for his reference to “lactate turnpoint”. You’ll see this is essentially the same phenomenon as “threshold” as I’ve previously mentioned.

http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au

Re: Power above FTP [Trev] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 15:18

Post #91 of 172 (4635 views)

Trev wrote:

if you use real time not log time, and Andrew and Alex are claiming you can see it on the power duration curve.

I made no such claim.

I said threshold can be determined from PD data (via various methods including use of mathematical models) and that it is clearly visible in physiological response data.

http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au

Re: Power above FTP [rock] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 15:45

Post #92 of 172 (4622 views)

rock wrote:

Who cares! This thread is full of so much BS it's absurd. I say that with respect to Coggan who is merely responding to comments/questions.

Jesus, if people want to debate academic theories in complex form, go to an academic conference. It adds no value here to the average forum person, for god sake, if you don't have the ability to make your complex theories simple enough for the audience (me included), then you don't know enough about the points you're arguing. Seriously, it makes you look immature, childish and ego driven

No kidding. This thread has given me indigestion, and made me consider giving up cycling to take up trapeze artistry without a net.

Not everything is as it seems -Mr. Miyagi

Re: Power above FTP [AlexS] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 15:50

Post #93 of 172 (4621 views)

AlexS wrote:

Trev wrote:

if you use real time not log time, and Andrew and Alex are claiming you can see it on the power duration curve.

I made no such claim.

I said threshold can be determined from PD data (via various methods including use of mathematical models) and that it is clearly visible in physiological response data.

Do you or do you not claim a threshold can be seen on the power duration curve without using mathematical models or log time?

If the threshold can be seen on the power duration curve in real time, please give a clear definition of what constitutes a threshold.

Re: Power above FTP [Trev] [ In reply to ]

May 19, 18 20:41

Post #94 of 172 (4565 views)

Trev wrote:

AlexS wrote:

Trev wrote:

if you use real time not log time, and Andrew and Alex are claiming you can see it on the power duration curve.

I made no such claim.

I said threshold can be determined from PD data (via various methods including use of mathematical models) and that it is clearly visible in physiological response data.

Do you or do you not claim a threshold can be seen on the power duration curve without using mathematical models or log time?

If the threshold can be seen on the power duration curve in real time, please give a clear definition of what constitutes a threshold.

I make no such claim. It’s certainly not a recommended method of identifying power at threshold from power data.

That’s said, if the data includes a mean maximal effort of about an hour duration, that data point alone will provide a very good estimate of power at threshold.

http://www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au

Re: Power above FTP [lyrrad] [ In reply to ]

May 20, 18 1:33

Post #95 of 172 (4513 views)

lyrrad wrote:

I think you should change your screen name from 'Trev' to 'Stalker that doesn't have a clue'.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

Good one Paull, it's now three forums you continue with you delusions that a time trial should show a deflection point indicating threshold power. Well, only if poorly ridden.

And for Mark, I will repeat from Wattage, after talking with Hugh Morton about a research project I left thinking "never let a mathematician do a physiologist or a coaches job"!

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach

Re: Power above FTP [Kiwicoach] [ In reply to ]

May 20, 18 5:57

Post #96 of 172 (4474 views)

Kiwicoach wrote:

Good one Paull, it's now three forums you continue with you delusions that a time trial should show a deflection point indicating threshold power. Well, only if poorly ridden.

This is idiotic - a total misinterpretation and complete misunderstanding. You haven't understood anything I said even though I have corrected you at least twice previously on this point. Not only have I never said that but it would be impossible to draw that conclusion from anything I said in any of these threads. Its not even remotely anywhere near anything I ever said !!!

We have Alex essentially now agreeing with most of what I said having spent a lot of effort disputing it and trying to make me look stupid.

And AC has been caught out quoting a statement from a paper of which he is co author and yet he now says he did not agree with that statement - nice one Trev

This is absolutely hilarious. I see that many of the respected physiologists do not take AC seriously, since he exited physiology academia many years ago, he spends his time dissing people online and together with his gang sociopathically defending his erroneous inventions whenever challenged. The world of cycling would be a better place without you.

Last edited by: paull: May 20, 18 5:58

Re: Power above FTP [paull] [ In reply to ]

May 20, 18 11:13

Post #97 of 172 (4415 views)

paull wrote:

Kiwicoach wrote:

Good one Paull, it's now three forums you continue with you delusions that a time trial should show a deflection point indicating threshold power. Well, only if poorly ridden.

This is idiotic - a total misinterpretation and complete misunderstanding. You haven't understood anything I said even though I have corrected you at least twice previously on this point. Not only have I never said that but it would be impossible to draw that conclusion from anything I said in any of these threads. Its not even remotely anywhere near anything I ever said !!!

It is us who has corrected you several times. Three forums of perpetuating the same misunderstanding of what threshold is.

Quote:

We have Alex essentially now agreeing with most of what I said having spent a lot of effort disputing it and trying to make me look stupid.

You don't need our help. Alex is not agreeing. He never said that a power duration curve from a time trial could be used to show a threshold in the first place.

Quote:

And AC has been caught out quoting a statement from a paper of which he is co author and yet he now says he did not agree with that statement - nice one Trev

That you side with a known troll speaks volumes.

Quote:

This is absolutely hilarious. I see that many of the respected physiologists do not take AC seriously, since he exited physiology academia many years ago, he spends his time dissing people online and together with his gang sociopathically defending his erroneous inventions whenever challenged. The world of cycling would be a better place without you.

Yet Andy communicates to me via an University email, keeps publishing work and hopefully will help me with an academic project I am undertaking.

Your opinion bud. On the weekend Cycling NZ's opinion was to award me a Services to Cycling Award to go with my two Coaches of the Year awards from 2009 and 2011.

Clearly Alex, Andy and I contribute a little more to the Cycling World than those who troll/stalk us on the Internet.

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach

Re: Power above FTP [Kiwicoach] [ In reply to ]

May 20, 18 11:42

Post #98 of 172 (4409 views)

Kiwicoach wrote:

He never said that a power duration curve from a time trial could be used to show a threshold in the first place.

LOL neither did I, you're still a million miles away, still not getting it and so far off its just incredible. I'm facepalming like never before.

Bye

Re: Power above FTP [paull] [ In reply to ]

May 20, 18 11:59

Post #99 of 172 (4401 views)

paull wrote:

Kiwicoach wrote:

He never said that a power duration curve from a time trial could be used to show a threshold in the first place.

LOL neither did I, you're still a million miles away, still not getting it and so far off its just incredible. I'm facepalming like never before.

Bye

Well at least you are coming round to the concept of a threshold even if you still confuse methods of estimating those thresholds with what the threshold is.

Maybe you should ask some of those respected physiologists you know.

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach

Re: Power above FTP [paull] [ In reply to ]

May 20, 18 12:41

Post #100 of 172 (4383 views)

paull wrote:

Its been shown on wattage (and not disputed) that the threshold is not identifiable from power data in the region 20 to 120 minutes. Which is all that Trev is saying.

How that makes him a troll is beyond me.

Trev is intentionally confusing methods of estimating a threshold with what a threshold is.

Quote:

To calculate the threshold you need a model which proposes its existence and uses short duration efforts to find it. i.e. even though it exists usually between 45 and 60 minutes, and you have data from 20 to 120 minutes, that would not be sufficient to calculate it, you need maximal data from 1 minute to 20 minutes also

What is proposed is a functional threshold, that eliminates the need for calculations and therefore multiple tests just for establishing a threshold (not what any cyclists should be training for), or spending time and many in the lab doing either a lactate threshold test or MLSS. "Best predictor of performance is performance itself". And why we stress functional threshold power.

Quote:

There is absolutely no way that a mathematician could take the high quality maximal power data of a well trained cyclist and identify a threshold without input from physiological models which create the concept of threshold. The shape of the power curve does not look at all like a threshold, it is a continuously reducing gradient from 5 minutes to way beyond 2 hours. In terms of pure data, it simply is not there, it does not exist.

The power curve is only as good as the data going into it.

Quote:

They would find a threshold around the point where glycogen runs out, in well trained cyclists, that turnpoint doesn't happen until between 02:30:00 and 03:30:00

Transition points occur when you can no longer supply enough oxygen to the working muscle (VO2max), when you start to purely burn carbohydrate (lactate threshold), and when you start to burn carbohydrate (obla) among others. As mentioned on wattage this is pretty basic stuff as you go out past 5mins. Hence the 1-5min zone was coined the Mystery Zone by the late Gordon Sleivert. It's in that mystery zone and repeated exercise performance that a lot of the models are broken.

Quote:

So yes, its just a concept in physiology - an attempt to identify where LT is. Apart from that, it doesn't look like a threshold, it doesn't feel like a threshold, its not visually identifiable as a threshold, its not mathematically identifiable as a threshold. But apparently, its still a threshold.

Yet power at threshold has a strong relationship with performance in timed events from a 2km pursuit to the 181km bike leg of the Ironman. And power at threshold can be used in road events to help the rider learn to manage their energy wisely.

Quote:

So I think its time to stop banging on about the shape of the power curve which supposedly looks like a threshold. That happens because:

(a) when you take the log of the x axis, a turnpoint is created. That is just a mathematical coincidence with no relevance to physiology
(b) a lot of riders don't have maximal efforts beyond one hour, so the turnpoint is amplified

Maybe you should watch a pursuit series to learn a thing or two about glycogen depletion.

Hamish Ferguson: Cycling Coach

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