I'm currently working out some saddle issues myself. I just had a fit and realized my persistent numbness is an equipment issue (wrong saddle), being an ISM PN3.1. I discovered it was too narrow after seeing my left rail was bent -2%. I think its 120mm. Had to tilt -10% and no numbness.

I tried the ISM PS1.0 and it felt okay but numbness again. Had it level. Width is 130mm

Got a Cobb JOF55 and trying tonight level. Width is 135mm.

I measured my sit bones at 110mm. Recommended sizing is 135mm to 140mm.

If the Cobb is a no go I may order a Fizik Transiro Large at 141mm.

Maybe Bisaddle if that doesn't work.

Big fan of the Mistica/Transiro saddle. Same concept as a widened BiSaddle IMO.

I think in this day and age there is zero reason to have a level saddle. All of my fit clients are leaving with about -10 degrees of tilt these days. Of course, you'll have to tilt other stuff to compensate for that :). I also think in this day and age anyone who is telling you to measure your sit bones for a TT fit is a snake oil salesman. The front of Mistica Large is 65mm wide which matches nicely with my apparently 65mm wide pubic bones.

For three of your saddles that you mentioned (JOF, BiSaddle, Mistica), tilt them down, slide them back, and hang off the front of them. You can do same for the ISM 1.0 (what about softer 1.1?) and 3.1, but I've also seen many people do just fine sitting on those saddles the "traditional" way.

Finally, and not that you're doing this, but if your saddle is comfortable when you're sitting up on the hoods, you're probably doing it wrong.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I actually felt fine on the PN3.1 with -10%. A local bike shop owner loaned me some saddles to try at different widths and recommended starting level and going down--2-4% maximum saddle tilt.

Since I realized one of my rails was bent X -2% on the PN3.1 I figured it probably wasn't a good fit even if -10% felt fine. Since the rails are -11%, I didn't think the tilt was extreme but the bike shop owner thought that was excessive as did my fitter.

I was really hoping to find something that would work level or -2% maximum and going wider to take the weight off my soft tissue. Perhaps that's unrealistic?

I'm still leaning toward trying the Fizik you mentioned in a large 141mm, if the Cobb doesn't work.

Your bike shop and fitter are giving you bad, outdated advice. Don't start at zero and work down, start at -15 and work up. Those saddles are designed to be tilted down.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Thanks for the feedback on saddle tilt. Based on what I did to my PN3.1 does it sound like a good idea to try a 135mm and then a 140mm (Fizik). I'm at least sure the saddles I've been riding are too narrow.

I was really hoping by going wider I could take the pressure off my soft tissue with no or less saddle tilt. Sounds like going wider can't hurt to a point and that tilt by as much as -15% is fine as well.

If you like wide the Large Fizik is 65mm, and the BiSaddle is pretty wide too. The JOF is 55mm as is the Small Fizik. Most of the ISMs are 55mm.

Report back when you try something new.

Eric

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

The only saddle that I haven't gone numb on is my ISM PN3.1 at -10%. I also liked the ISM PS1.0 at the same tilt. The problem is the width or lack thereof (120mm and 130mm)

I love the wide front cutout of the ISM's, but while testing the Cobb JOF55 tonight (135mm) that was still too narrow. I need at least 140mm to support my sit bones.

I see your point about saddle tilt and that along with a cutout is probably the key to reducing my numbness. I do want at least 65mm up front and 145mm rear width to support me and keep me from rocking around side to side.

I think maybe we're talking past each other here... if you're still worried about sit bone width you're perhaps not hearing what I'm saying and possibly not sitting on, say, the widened front BiSaddle or Fizik 65mm saddle correctly. You hang off from your pubic bones... sit bones do not contact the saddle.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I'm really leaning towards the Bisaddle. I need around 65mm to 70mm width up front like the ISM to relieve pressure on the pudenal artery and perineum. The split nose works for me with a generous cut out.

Measuring my rear sit bones at 110mm, I'm not totally sure on rear width. It would put me at 135mm to 140mm and the ISM PS series maxes out at 130mm. If my sit bones shouldn't contact the saddle perhaps this is a total non-factor? What width would be advisable based on my measurements?

At least increase saddle tilt between -10% and -15% to relieve some of the pressure on my current ISM. That should at least help me with my upcoming race in a couple of weeks until I sort out the saddle issue.

It's a non-factor. Sitting up on the hoods and back on your sit bones should be uncomfortable and encourage you to stay aero ;)

Like I said at the beginning of our conversation, my recent client came in with a narrowed BiSaddle and left with the same saddle all the way wide in front and his saddle about 5cm further back and 10 degrees tilted down than before.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Thank you to the recent posters who brought this thread to my attention, and thank you in advance for any help you can offer!

I recently began riding my triathlon bike long distances after a long layoff. After 15 minutes, I am sliding off the front of the seat. I have two seats: An ISM PL 1.1 and a Fizik Mistica. Both do the same thing and it’s super annoying. My bib shorts start bunching up and chafing and I want to toss my bike into a ditch. I want to fix it without resorting to skateboard grip tape. I spent two hours yesterday riding around with tools and moving the seat forward and back and changing the tilt to fix it. No luck.

I am 48 years old. My fit was done with the ISM at level to -1 degree tilt around four years ago. I always wear bib shorts, not a triathlon kit, and this has never been troublesome before.

Here is a list of recent changes that come to mind:
- I am 4kg heavier. I want to blame Covid-19, but it’s obviously my fault.
- After several years of left knee and left hamstring pain, the seats on my road bike and XC mountain bike recently came down 15mm from fitting height. Problem fixed. No change to triathlon bike yet.
- I added long Culprit armrests, which are wonderful. I verified saddle to elbow distance is the same.
- I moved to Hawaii from South Dakota, where it is hotter and more humid. The roads are bumpier, and I am being bumped up and down. I am definitely sweating more and there is condensation splashing off my BTA bottle.

Any help or advice you can give me would be great. My next step was dropping the saddle 15-20mm. Then, lifting the armrests the same amount.

Thanks for the additional information. I rarely break aero, so like you say the rear width just isn't something that comes into play other than encouraging me to get back into aero for the few times I may break position.

In terms of relieving pressure in the soft tissue a saddle tilt, fore/aft and seatpost height all come into play.

Given my preference for a wide split nose with a cutout and the versatility I'm leaning towards a BiSaddle SRT 2.0 Bonneville with Cutout. I've managed to bend my left rail on my ISM PN3.1 at X -2% after two years of riding and probably need to look a replacing it anyway. The ISM PS 2.0 is another solid option.

What would be your recommmendation? I really appreciate you lending so much valuable insight.

I saw a fair amount about user experience (UX) design and measurement, so this thread piqued my interest. disclaimer: I own a saddle company start-up.

As with Dan's comments on pressure mapping, I'm most interested in how that information/data is being used to guide a decision: does the data get fed into well defined and validated models or is it curiosity-research? I see a lot of the latter.

Having done thousands of bike fits with a particular interest in saddles (#saddlebattle for you pubes fans), I realized quickly that it takes rotating through 5+ saddles in the fit studio followed by ~15 hours of outside ride time for someone to truly know what they want.

I did create the following survey: https://virginiatech.qualtrics.com/...m/SV_bQUiW23krXWfWXr
and I collected hundreds of responses and used that analysis to guide the design of my saddles. I also collected thousands of responses as part of a study I did for DeSoto that examined short + saddle interaction and I've used those findings, as well.

What we came away with was the need for a wide and deep channel, consistent width of the nose of the saddle going back as far as possible before flaring out, a not too wide nose, but wide enough to provide ample ischial tuberosity support, a nose that is at a -4 degree angle with the rails are level and the rear is the same angle as on our road saddle, and the front 3cm to be ultra grippy on top of the nose but the rear the smoothness of a road saddle so that when in the aerobars, the rider is locked in with that -4 degree angle and when sitting up, it feels as good as a road saddle (rare for TT saddles).

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

I'd try the BiSaddle SRT max width and also play with normal vs. flat "tilt" bodies.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Can you refresh me on Dan's comments on pressure mapping? Dan fed fit data into the FIST model and came out with a good product, but I don't personally know about saddles.

I'm surprised your user-generated feedback led you to the pretty good conclusions you got... sounds like a good start. I'm of the opinion that people don't know what they want, they only know it when they see it. I also have a corollary that some people are on the wrong saddle and some people are sitting on the right saddle wrongly and need to be coached, and that position is a HUGE factor in saddle choice. A perfect saddle in one position will or could be horrible in another.

thanks for weighing in,
E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

should note the protocol: on fit bike, rotating through saddles as blind as possible, surveying the feedback on each saddle 3 times. Number 1 rule in UX research: don't ask the user's opinion, observe their behavior. So much, as I'm sure you've seen, is watching the riders' body language...

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

It's hard to imagine there's one universal answer to this issue. About a decade ago, I spent an entire year trying out 15-20 saddles and found that the Selle San Marco Aspide fit my anatomy (decent - though not large- sized thighs/quads and butt) the best of all the saddles I tried. Initially I went for the Aspide with the faux leather covering (now called Microfeel), but then I took a shot at the full carbon fiber shell (super thin), no covering, and only 96 grams. Somehow it works and I'm fine training and racing on it. It's discontinued but you can find some on ebay The closest model they make now is the Aspide Superleggera Narrow at 109 g. (and a lot more expensive than it used to be). Bottom line is you need to try a bunch of different types and see what works - - trial and error at its best.

I decided to try the Bisaddle SRT 2.0 with Cutout. I'm pretty stoked!!!

Get any riding in this weekend?

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Full disclosure, I like my Bisaddle very much, except that I would have liked for it to last longer than two years with light use.

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DFL > DNF > DNS

You have one of a bad patch of uppers -unless you use chamois creams which sometimes lead to these cracking uppers as well- but we sell quite an amount of this saddle and also had some of these cracking saddle uppers which were sold all around the same time.
Contact Brick at BiSaddle and show the pics. You will get a new upper send. They gave us all new uppers for our clients.
Very good CS on their part.

Jeroen

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Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

are you riding in a road or tri application? Also, can you take and post a pic from the side?

thanks,
E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

The saddle is mounted on top of my Cervelo P3 in a tri application. The vast majority of my riding is on my road bike, so that I can better see the road. Maybe 15% of my riding is on my tri bike.

I will reach out to see about getting the upper replaced, as I was an early adopter of this saddle.

125 pounds of weight over no more than 40 rides should not cause it to decompose that fast, even in the dry climate of Utah.

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DFL > DNF > DNS

Oh certainly, I agree. I was more interested in how you were riding the saddle for my fit education.

thanks
Eric

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

In my opinion, several key points on this discussion:

1) Measuring sit bones is useless. Depending on your position can change this measurement greatly.

2) There is no good or bad saddle. Everyone's rear end is different. There is only what is good for that one person

3) Given #2, the best thing to do is to go to a professional fitter who has numerous different saddles you can try out while on the trainer in your riding position (and to make sure you are getting proper hip rotation to enable a flat spine).