I've accepted that I'll never be comfortable! For me its a choice between numbness or eventual saddle sore.

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IG - @ryanppax
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not tri-bike specific, but applicable to tri / road / gravel, I think. I can ride almost anything short of a splintered plank of wood outdoors, as long as its fitted correctly. Indoors seems to be more of a challenge to get right. I'm wondering how those 2 things relate, should I be looking at solving the indoor situation with a new saddle, or would I be better off with using the saddle(s) that I like for outdoor riding and looking at making the ride experience indoors more like outdoors, whether that's switching to rollers, a rocker plate, a Kurt rock n roll trainer, etc? or both? or something else?

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Tilting the saddle nose down always seems to help with discomfort in the nether regions but then I feel like I am sliding out over my aerobars and have to keep pushing myself back. Any thoughts other than, go see a reputable fitter? I'm trying a Sitero that was loaned to me and so far it seems ok. I bet I have a $1,000 worth of saddles in the basement that I have tried over the years.

I have been professionally fit on three different occasions and have never really been comfortable on my bike. It has largely "chased me out of triathlon". In 2016, about 90 miles in to my seventh Ironman, I was so uncomfortable that I decided that I was taking a year off from tri training and just never went back (I've been running a lot of miles but that's it....) 2021 has me dipping my toes back in. I'm signed up for two tris, but in the absence of comfort on the bike, I won't last long.

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Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

So without getting too graphic, I have always wondered if there is a way to measure or assess our perineum down there (privately of course) and use that information to help pick out an appropriate saddle based on length, width, etc.

A couple of things I found helpful in my day:

(1) Use 2 pairs of cycling shorts (at the same time) when you do something where you expect pain in the glutes (e.g. the first long workout of the year or a long race.) The lycra still wicks away the moisture and the extra padding distributes the pressure more, so less pressure on any given spot.

(2) I used a seat shifter (I don't know if these are still legal/available), but when one part of my bum was sore I could move the seat a little and change the point of max pressure to a spot that was a little less sensitive.

---

Tri or tri not; this is no du. (--- with apologies to Yoda.) Slow triathlete who survived Huntsville, Lelystadt, Colmar, Fontanil, and
Szekesfehervar/Lake Velence. Arbor hydration specialist in a kid's park in Monterrey 4 times in the 1990s (and in the pits in 1994).

It's been mentioned before many times, but is worth repeating, even if it doesn't solve everyone's problems.

Lowering your saddle, sometimes significantly, often can help a LOT.

I had to lower my saddle so much that it felt almost ridiculous (which also cost me a lot of power initially) but then gradually tested raising it tiny amounts at a time until I reached a position that no longer gave me saddle sores. After that was known, I kept raising a little until I started getting minimal problems, and used a position in between the two.

I periodicially remove my seatposts to make sure they don't seize, and I'll admit in the past I've never been good about marking the replacement position, and when I start getting saddle sores again on long rides, it's invariably the seatpost height.

For me, the seatpost height made ALL the difference. I had even purchased 3 different seats of varying height, thickness, and softness all of which failed before making the seatpost change and thankfully it solved everything for me. Dont' get me wrong - if I don't ride much and then go out and do a 3-hour ride , sure the rear end will feel it, but in contrast, with a good seat height, the training works meaning I can safely build up to those long rides without sores limiting me.

i always tilt the saddle nose down until i begin to slide forward. you know this of course when you're constantly pushing yourself back in the saddle. depending on how and where you measure on the saddle, that's a 2.5 to 4 degree tilt. you can't slide forward. that's a no-go.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

pressure mapping is a thing. the most notable brand associated with this is gebiomized. my problem, issue, concern, hesitation, with pressure mapping is what it always is with any prescriptive system. what is the metric that causes you to change or determine your behavior? i look at saddles like i look at dating. how will you choose your spouse? by a questionnaire? or by going out on a bunch of dates?

years ago we sponsored the slowtwitch saddle tour. we sent a piece of tech around the country, to a bunch of shops and bike fitters. it was a quick-change saddle device you could put on your fit bike, and you could change a saddle in 10 seconds, without the rider even having to get off the bike. you could do a pretty good demo of 4 or 5 saddles over a period of 20 minutes.

of course you couldn't know what saddle would work, for sure, over the long haul, but - just like dating - you could pretty well figure out which prospects would not work pretty quickly. as in, after 30 seconds. often it came down to "finalists", as in, it's either this saddle or that. and then the shop had its policies for how you settled that issue.

there is a new saddle changing device now entering the market, which will now make 2 of them on the market, and i think testing - "dating" - various saddles is surest way to determined your "behavior," which is in this case how you choose a saddle.

i have been to a lot of bike shops, bike studios, fitter's studios, and the way things have been - what i've seen - is unfortunately that the choice of saddles is thin in the places i've visited. i have probably 70 or 80 saddles in my workshop. i've got to shops with expensive fit studios and the choice of aerobars is, maybe, 2, and the choice of saddles not more than 3 or 4. finding the right saddle is not that hard, but experience, tooling, selection, matters.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I have found that a narrow saddle with almost no flare-out at the back has been the key to being comfortable. I currently use a Dash saddle, the Stage G2 narrow width. It is a pretty minimalist saddle from a padding standpoint, but it curves downward in such a way that I don't have to tilt it much, so I can stay on it without too many issues with the undercarriage. My Shiv came with a Sitero and I hated it, it was too wide, too blunt, the nose was cut off at angle that left me either being crushed or dangling on the front with no support. IMHO it is a terrible saddle with nothing to recommend it. I realize, however, that anatomic differences will make this the saddle that someone has been seeking their whole life. Just not me. I can't recommend Dash highly enough. great customer service, and a trial period for a pretty affordable cost to see if it works for you.

If I start riding time trial/triathlon bikes again, I would be tempted to go custom. The saddles from MELD transformed my road and gravel bikes over the last year. I get that it's a different part of the anatomy, but I'm curious if they have done much to address that as well.

It's funny, I've been riding Cobb saddles for years with an Adamo that I trade in and out every once in awhile when things get too uncomfortable. Trying to find that Holy Grail....

My brother in law loaned me the Sitero in a bag full of parts. I decided to throw it on for a trial and so far it has been the most comfortable I can remember being in aero position.

The Dash intrigues me. I may have to trial one and see what I think.

---

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

I have been lucky to find the perfect saddle (perfect to me, obviously!) for my road bike: Selle SMP Dynamic.

However, it does not 'work' with my Tri Bike and I have yet to find a good saddle.

'Standard Saddle' + Fisik Mistica + Fabric Tri Race + Prologo dimension Tri + SMP Dynamic + Cobb JOF + SMP TT 2 => numbness in aero position

ISM PN2.1 + ISM PN3.1 + Bontrager Hilo => Numbness is ok but causes chafing / saddle sores ... ISM PN2.1 seemed to be a bit better if angled down significantly and prongs zipped tighter ... but then that results in back pain!

I am due to receive end of this week the Dash Strike (stock G2) ... crossing fingers !

I have the nearly exact same thing. I made a rocker plate. It helps but did not solve the problem. On the road I can ride a fairly hard (nearly no padding) saddle but on the trainer padding is what I need to be comfy. I have tried various saddles and so far nothing is that perfect one.... So I would say if you are like me the rocker plate may help but probably will not solve it. My rocker has all sorts of adjustment by changing the rubber spacers I use and springs etc and it has enough rocking when standing seems about similar to the road. It does not however move forward too much, maybe a cm? or so?

It doesn't have to be this way! Somewhere, there is the right way to sit on the right saddle for you and the position you're in. We can find it.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

This is a great question, and I'm in danger of derailing the thread, but indoors the fact that your bike doesn't move side-to-side is a huge component of indoor discomfort. I've talked to people that used those bumper plate things under their trainers to add some suspension. I think short of that a neoprene saddle cover, or a saddle with more padding, would help.

That said, it's a magnifying issue. Anything suboptimal outdoors will be magnified indoors. For either drop bars or time trial applications the *right* saddle, for you, in your position, will help.

What are you on now?

Eric

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

There's a way to stop yourself from sliding forward that doesn't involve the saddle. My usual Slowtwitch persona is to make you guess (because earned wisdom sticks way better than received wisdom) or direct you to your local fitter, but in this case I'll make an exception. Tilting your bars up, to match the downward tilt of today's modern saddles is an extremely effective and optimal way to get the best of both worlds with regard to saddle tilt and positional stability.

Make sense?

Eric

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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on the TT bike I'm on a Cobb v-flow. I don't really like that one indoors or out, but I'm not doing tris anymore, so its not really a priority.

on the roadie I'm on an old Selle Italia SLR, the original non-cutout minimalist version. I find that its very comfortable outside, the rides around here involve a lot of small rollers where you're in and out of the saddle. I've gone on 3-4 hour rides and not even noticed it.

indoors is another matter. its too much pressure on a small point for an extended period if I use the SLR, so I've been using another oldie, a Selle Italia Century. Also quite comfy outdoors (again, falls into the "I forgot it was there" category) not bad indoors, but not great, up to about an hour and a half. I'm not numb anywhere, its just that I notice it and I'm conscious of a need to shift my weight occasionally. After an hour and a half, I have to stand up a lot more than I would like.

Based on what you and others have said, I think that something like a Kinetic rock&roll smart trainer would go a long way, both from a natural movement and terrain simulation on Zwift so I'd be more inclined to get out of the saddle on small rises.

---

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Not sure if it was Rappstar that I first read this from, many years ago now on slowtwitch, but since then I’ve worn sports briefs under my tri shorts and that has reduced or eliminated any chaffing or discomfort more than any padding or wax/cream ever has.

I also use ISM PS2.0 on both my TT and road bikes. I’ve been tempted to test lighter saddles like Selle Italia’s Superflow variants, but it’s a low priority as I’m about as comfortable as I can expect up to ~120 miles as is.

That said, how much of saddle comfort has to do with riding harder? I notice that if I start to ease off on power and end up actually putting more weight on the saddle while in an aero position, it’ll eventually hurt. I feel like a good recipe for “comfort” is sticking to rides no longer than you can hold upper Z2, and adding time only after building strength and practice minimal coasting on shorter rides.

This is me so much. I have had great TT and Road saddle success with a large variety of saddles. Indoor? Not so much if I am riding over 2 hours. I have a very nice rocker plate, great fits of all of my bikes and a nice trainer. Once I hit the 2 hours mark I either need to get off for 15 minutes and give ye ole taint a break or swap out bikes and resume. Nothing has ever helped this.

it seems there is some truth to the power output idea. One of my worst days in the saddle out doors was when I had to soft pedal to help another rider find his way home and he was nursing a bike that would not shift into the big ring. It was torture.

On the trainer I have in fact tried to layers of shorts (ie two chamois) and well it seems to work if they are not to bulky side to side. To me that is a bit sub optimal but I have had it work on the trainer. I am still in search of my forever saddle though. I have a narrow sit bones so it is hard to find the right narrow saddle, the Italian made saddles seem to work best from that point of view for me, Selle Italia, Selle san Marco etc... none are quite perfect on the trainer but on the road as long as it is narrow enough and scooped enough I can ride most all day no problem. The problem is really the trainer.

I find saddles by far the most interesting piece on the bike. And for some years now I wonder what the ‘thing’ is that causes sime to have so much discomfort and others, like me, can ride almost anything. I can even ride most road bike saddles without too much issue.

I ride pretty aggressive in my tri-position but always on the back of the saddle. Currently the BiSaddle EXT but all the way back, and i don’t move a mm.....Participated in an aero test performed by GeBiomized and at first they thought I could not ride like that.
After the 2 days they never had seen someone that stayed so still in one saddle position like me.
But also prologo dimension, spec power pro, bontrager hilo comp, dash, pro stealth all no problem

But back to the why, I wonder if nerves, blood veins, urinal tube, prostate, etc. are located different between people. In the meaning that by one they are physically deeper/higher in the body and less close to the surface? Is it a combination of the bony ‘construction’ of the pelvic?It is so interesting why some seem to experience so much trouble that is drives them away from tri or cycling.

And I’m glad the Slowman here says he has 70 or 80 saddles in his fit studio. I thought I was the freak alone in this ;-)

Jeroen

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Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

Something tells me that if you are OK with dropping the nose, but you feel you will fall off the front of the aerobars, you just need to drop your saddle 7.5mm to 10 mm and most of your problems will be gone. It will compress your hip angle a bit, however, you will now have more weight on your legs and your aeropads vs saddle.

Imagine yourself sitting on an office chair that is "too high" (try 2 inches too high so your feet are dangling in the air) versus your heels are flat on the ground. I THINK you are riding on the equivalent of sitting on a bar stool versus an appropriate height office chair. Get off the bar stool and I bet you are set to go. If you don't believe me, just start by lowering your saddle 20mm so you're not in the bar stool position and then gradually raise your saddle until the first semblance of "bar stool" height kicks in and then back it down 2mm.

I'm relieved to hear this answer... the dating analogy is a good one, it's binary, and on which I'd like to expand.

Sometimes I think people get wrapped around the axle about being different. Yes, we're all different, but we're all the same kind of different. Your analogy hits the nail on the head in that the operative difference between people/athletes is not the map of their body parts but whether or not they like this saddle or that saddle, whether they'd want a second date. Thus from *there* the process begins, which is trying as many saddles as possible, guided by a person who knows how each saddle should or was intended to be sat on. Even though they can map our eyes, the eye doctor still does the old "better or worse" back and forth like when we were kids. Eventually the right saddle, sat on the right way, will match with the right position for your sport and your goals and cycling gets way more fun.

Another thing I'd like to touch on is "purpose" and comparative decision making. If the purpose of the athlete is to conform to the bike, in other words to work for the saddle, you're going to get a much different purpose and saddle decision making and comparing framework as a bike fitter or saddle maker than if the purpose of the saddle is to conform to the rider... in other words the saddle works for us. You approach and go about the issue in wildly different directions when you frame it as "it works for us" rather than "we work for it".

It all boils down to "are we doing things right" vs. "are we doing the right things". Pressure mapping, in my opinion, is a "doing things right" sort of thing, degrees or orders of magnitude more specific than the old way we used to measure that sort of stuff. Trying all the saddles with a competent fitter is a "doing the right things" sort of exercise, where before we even think about if we're doing "it" right we think about what we're trying to accomplish in the first place.

Eric

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I don't know about you, but I ride a "long" road saddle that has like 4 positions. Way back for climbing, semi back for group ride chatter on the hoods, semi forward for riding hard in the drops, and on the nose for attacks off the front. I bet all that moving around really helps comfort, and I bet we don't do that sort of movement when riding indoors.

On the flip, if I raise the saddle high enough, I can make my TT/tri saddle a "one position" saddle, in that it's so high any further forward and I'll fall off the nose and any further back and my knee extension is way off. This, while OK for a bike fit, is of course going to become uncomfortable after a while and thus I have my tri saddle more in the range where I can slide back and forth a little and stretch out different muscles and settle on the "neutral" position most of the time.

Eric

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

One word for you. Bisaddle. As with everyone else I have spent at least $1000 dollars on every tri saddle that promised comfort. They all produced excruciating pain after several hours. I bought the bisaddle with two separate top pieces that can be adjusted independently. Wide in the front, wide in the back, narrow in the front, narrow in the back etc. You can also adjust the “crown” of the saddle by rotating each half outwards from flat, to little crowned, to lot crowned. Put it in the trainer, tried the two separate sets of saddle tops, tried all three crowning angles. Tried every single combination the saddle would go into, when it fits you know it. That saddle is nothing short of amazing! Makes riding in the aero position all day an option. It’s a joy to concentrate on speed and power and not “when can I get off this thing”. Well worth the money, they even have a thirty day return policy. Takes a bit of fiddling to find that perfect spot, but when you find it, the heavens open, angels sing and it’s hammer time!

Have you tried a Dash saddle?

Here is a great example of "the bike working for you" and not the other way around. The saddle is adjustable, customizable to your morphology/preference... it literally works for you!

BiSaddle worked great for me in another way... my leg length discrepancy. Over the years I had developed a lopsided stance on the saddle and it worked for me, but it was noticeable. One intrepid anatomically minded physical therapist / fitter at Dan's FIST camp took a look at me on the fit bike, grabbed a BiSaddle, and sorted me out in 5min. It was great, he used the adjustability to create an asymmetric saddle that matched my needs and straightened out my pedal stroke.

Eric

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Dash is a good example of "how saddles are supposed to be sat on". If you buy one of their saddle/seatpost combos, it comes tilted waaay down from level, which is a hint about how it's meant to be sat on and informs the rest of your fit if you're paying attention.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

i found the bisaddle the only saddle that worked in both tri and standard positions on my bikepacker. i'd like to know what model you have. i found the "sprint" to be the one.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Years after your nation-wide Saddle Tour I am still riding in comfort on the saddle I picked out during that event. It's a shame that bike shops (apparently) didn't buy into that saddle swapping device.

The logistics alone make it worth it... 2 seconds per saddle vs two min.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I now have a Dash saddle on both tri and road bikes. Stage for tri bike and Strike on the road bike. It took several months of fiddling with adjustments to get them just about perfect when I initially got each. I find that volume leads to better feel. During the height of the pandemic I was ridding 1500 miles for a few months in a row - riding that much led to zero saddle issues. Maybe my body just adapted and got more durable.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
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I certainly found that to be the case as well. Early on I got up to 300mpw and have been good ever since. Time in the saddle to learn your body and feedback you’re getting and how to sit.


Trick is to get a saddle that allows that high mileage learning period.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Hi Eric,
your mention of leg length discrepancies and saddle issues prompts me to write. My length difference (left shorter than right) is 19 or 20 mm; I recall x-rays while standing next to marked metal rulers being involved in the determination of this number about 20 years ago. It's effect on how I stand, walk, run, cycle, etc. is pronounced enough that I've had various podiatrists, PTs, bike fitters, massage therapists, etc. remark on the asymmetry after a few seconds of observation. Some have also asked me how much discomfort I'm in when walking / running, etc. My answer to them has generally been 'it doesn't bother me at all' but as I've had this for quite some time, I'm not sure how I would separate out any discomfort caused by the length discrepancy from what's normally experienced at race intensity - I've been a competitive runner for 50 years and cyclist / triathlete for 15+.

I've got a noticeable side to side rocking in my hips as I pedal, and staying in aero is difficult. Have you found this saddle to help with these?

Thanks,
Chris

Hi, thanks for reaching out. We have similar discrepancies.

For me, I originally rode a nosed road saddle for Tri, so had the sit off to one side, and naturally I shifted to the “short” side and so it evened out. When I moved to a split nosed saddle I still tended to shift left because by then it was just baked into my pedal stroke. The asymmetric BiSaddle intervention was just a way of evening it back out.

That said there are things that stand out to me... for sure a competent fitter will shim and wedge your fit to compensate for your leg length discrepancy and also ensure your saddle height and setback are correct to eliminate rocking in the saddle. Crank length can affect that too.

I find that for saddles, the one that allows the most pelvic rotation is best because it seems to save some distance... I use half the wedges for tri as I do on road shoes.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Interestingly, I have basically no saddle discomfort no matter how far I ride. Back when I rode a Flite saddle, which is pretty minimal, I got fit by John Cobb while at a race (1990 Memphis in May). I have kept the same position and saddle adjustments since that time and all is well, although I am now on an Arione Tri. I can give more details, but the fit is fist before fist. Make the front 4 - 5 inches of the saddle level, and lay your taint down the side. Really no issues. Slowman, you tried to get me to experiment . . . describing something about old college girlfriends (in front of young Riley) but I have stayed where I am. And so I ride on!

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Thanks. I've had shims and wedges but for no good reason I can recall, they didn't make the transition to new bike shoes. Probably time to revisit that with a fitter.

Absolutely. Except I’m riding a very old Shiv that was part of the extension -recall about five years ago. The extensions that they placed on the bike have no tilt function. I wish that I had just kept the old set up. It may be time to upgrade.

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----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

Most fitters still use hip-bone width when seated upright for contact point saddle width.
Most split nose saddles forme are simply too wide at contact points and up front, if you tilt your hip forwards into the aero position. Especially if you have narrow hips.
Wasted hundreds of dollars on split nose, stubbed saddles.

Went back to a narrow short nose traditional saddle (kids-sized....LoL) that every fitter told me is ‘not ideal’ for me (and may well be for road riding).

Just putting this out there, as I consider most of the modern tri saddles designed by those with wide hips, big butts and plenty of cushioning.

I’m putting some thoughts on paper about this, but the measuring the sit bones is not the way to go about finding a TT saddle, for the reasons you mentioned but mostly because it’s not *elegant*, it’s not doing things right *or* doing the right things. As you said, we rotate our pelvii and also long nosed saddles are great for road applications because of the variety of position requirements/possibilities. Finally, I feel seen... your wide hips 65mm split nose saddle width comments are hitting the mark with me.

One great way to measure yourself is using the adjustability of a BiSaddle... nose all the way wide, see how it feels. All the way narrow see how it feels. In the middle, etc. Eventually you’ll know the width of your pubic bones, which is a direct measurement and not a proxy measurement like sit bones is. One you have this info you’ll know what family of saddles might best suit you.

Eric

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I put an ISM Pn 3.1 on my Cervelo P Series and I can’t even feel the saddle. I could ride for days and never get numb. Best money I ever invested in my bike.

Now trying out a ISM 4.0 which is the same apart from 1 cm wider in the back. So far it;s been the best but far from ideal for me.

---

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

What do you think would be ideal for you?

It might help if you had a picture or video of you on your bike in the TT position.

Eric

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Ideally I would like to not have a numb penis ;)
To be honest though I have no clue what would would work for me. Tried out a jcob 55 and feels great when initially sitting on it because of no pressure points but its narrow enough to cause my entire pelvis to go numb after 30min. Going back and forth on the ISM4.0 and toying around with a bisaddle.

I've been meaning to follow up with you for a while (does my name ring a bell from Christmas?) Took forever to get the 160 cranks... I'll get you some video this evening.

---

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

Ok keep me posted :)

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Honest question, what happens when you lower your seat a lot? Like so low it feels weird? Do you still get pelvic numbness?

To me that just sounds like a seat too high as dev mentioned.

I ride an ISM Road saddle (several years old) on my triathlon bike and an ISM Typhoon on my road bike. Indoors is never going to be as comfortable as outside, but the game changer for me was lowering my seat height and purchasing a Kinetic Rock & Roll trainer. I still have to remember to take "butt breaks" during long rides indoors but the pain and saddle sores are under control. Also, there is a toughening up period if I've been off the bike too long which lasts a couple weeks!

I've found that my TT bike comfort saddle-wise comes down to which bib shorts I use. The "road bike team cut" stuff simply doesn't seem to work for a damn. They are GSG pro fit shorts that I hate. I have a pair of Castelli Entrata that feel good. A pair of Ale' that are OK. The DHB thermal bib feels pretty darn good. The best is actually an old cheapy pair of way too big a pad actual shorts that came from REI as a house brand for one year only.

Those same REI ones suck on the road bike saddle. The GSG pro fit ones sucks on road bike saddle also.

The complaint I have with the bibs that don't work on the TT bike is that the pad is too narrow in the taint area for a taint pressure relief "TT" or "tri" saddle.

I'm going to hazard a guess this may be why the skinsuits in the pro peloton are often paired with more "road" looking saddles than 95% ISM and Mistica style saddles. The saddle may relieve the pressure, but the pad in the bib is gone by that wide!

So, that's my issue with comfort in TT. With the shorts I say feel "good", I can ride a TT bike setup position wise for pretty much 10mi distance and 25mi in desperation of a race for 2 hours or so. Longer than that, may as well go road bike and just have the comfort for more training volume and add intensity for the TT bike rides to keep them shorter.

But, it's that weird narrow taint area bib pad issue that usually kills it for me.

When I’m aero, I seem to have to choose between pain and sores on the soft tissue that covers my pubis bones or perineal numbness. In a road cycling position, I don’t have these problems. I ride “nose less” saddles like ism adamo and bi saddle. When I lean forward in to the aero bars and my pelvis tilts, I roll from the ischial tuberosities onto the more narrow pubis area. If I ride off the “nose” a bit, I’m in my most comfortable overall position and generate the most power and comfortable cadence but the pressure on my soft tissue from the saddle contact points gets pretty intense. If I scoot back to spread the pressure onto more tissue, it slowly numbs my perineal area. So I shift around a lot which I find annoying, distracting, and performance reducing.
Edit: perhaps I just need to take my bi saddle to a fitter that could help me adjust it better. The bi saddle has been so much better than anything I’ve ever tried. But it’s just not quite right atm

Figured I could post these publicly but if you want to take to PM that's cool.
160 cranks
Sorry for the freedom units
saddle height 30.25 - 30 7/16" to BB center. This measurement is kinda hard for me to guage.
saddle tip to back of pad: 21.75"

First sit down on the bisaddle with this configuration. Using the wedge that makes it more rounded and it's sitting at around 8-10degrees dpending on where i sit the level. This felt really good actually. Will be giving it a 2hr Sweet Spot test tomorrow.
https://drive.google.com/...Wa7/view?usp=sharing

ISM.4.0 6degree tilt. Been using for a couple weeks, and able to put out power just getting figety. Sore taint, nearing a saddle sore on the contact points and penis numbess
https://drive.google.com/...YXs/view?usp=sharing

ISM 10degree tilt. Figured I'd do this one at 10 since the Bisaddle felt good.
https://drive.google.com/...Xm5/view?usp=sharing

edit:Recorded on my gopro, but can redo on my phone if the fisheye is messing you up. If you download instead of using the web player they are much better quality

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I’ve been riding the stock Cervelo saddle that came with my bike. Although it never produces much pain/discomfort/numbness while riding, I have had some issues off the bike - namely, difficulty getting/staying hard. I’d had a bike fit, but was putting in quite a bit of time indoors in aero position when I started noticing the issue. Bike fitter suggested it was an issue of the Cervelo seat being too soft and too wide, which meant it was basically flattening out under body weight and defeating the whole purpose of the cutout. Switched to a narrower, firmer Gebiomized Stride. Not exactly comfy but hoping it resolves things — along with some more time outdoors.

Have you ever tried a Dash saddle?

I just bought a fancy pair of Shimano S-Phyre shoes. I say that in a saddle thread because I've always maintained that the two areas where you get a huge return for your money are shoes and bib shorts. These shoes deliver, and no doubt bib shorts do as well which affects saddle comfort.

Ironically the most comfortable I've ever felt from a saddle-chamois interaction standpoint was in the first generation Pearl Izumi sleeved aero tri suit. The suit was super tight and the chamois felt glued or painted on me and so there was zero discomfort. Not even discomfort, but positive comfort in the other direction. I felt fine in the aero position on the first generation Fizik Tritone 65mm wide I think, perfectly fine chamois width between my pubic bones and the nose of the saddle.

I've been riding a lot lately with no bib shorts or tri shorts, to really dig into this thread and get some real experience with these saddles that I have. I feel like if done properly you can still ride aero, I'll report back more as I learn it.

Eric

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Have you tried the BiSaddle in the widest position yet? I'd start there and find the sweet spot, try to "hang" off the saddle from your pubic bones rather than soft tissue. Sometimes you have to wiggle around to get firm contact between saddle and bones.

Eric

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Thanks for the videos, huge help.

One thing that I'm noticing is that your saddle seems a touch high, which can affect your interface with the saddle. When it's high you limit your position options to one place sometimes which increases the load on your body in that spot. I'd be curious to hear how the two-hour test goes with the BiSaddle goes today, so let us know.

How did the 10 degree tilt go? I know it's wonky aesthetically, but a tilted saddle in conjunction with a tilted front end really works.

Eric

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OK, so this is a serious thing and not to be treated lightly. In addition to working with a bike fitter, I'd talk to your doctor and really address the issue directly and decisively.

As far as bike fit goes, I'd ask you to hang from your pubic bones and keep the soft tissue off the front as the split nosed saddles are designed to do. Which saddle came stock with your Cervelo (nice bike!)? Keep us posted.

Eric

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Ty for your response, Eric. I do have the saddle
set to the widest position. I’m using the SRT model. I understand exactly what you’re saying. I get two good points of contact on my pubis bones (I think?) or maybe somewhere in between the transition between the ischial tuberosities and the pubis. When I roll into aero, it feels really good and I feel properly “locked” into a very powerful and comfortable position as far as my body and my saddle are concerned. After about 5-10 minutes though, the two contact points just begin to get a bit painful. My bones feel fairly “pointy” where they come in contact with the saddle prongs... manual inspection also seems to feel like they’re slightly different shapes with my left side feeling like has something like a bone spur on it. As a result, it just kinda feels like the soft tissue between the bones and the saddle are in a bit of a meat grinder.

Edit: I spend most of my cycling time in Zwift on my kickr bike. So I’ve been able to mess with my fit and comfort a lot as far as the bike itself is concerned. I also neglected to mention that I almost always just ride in shammy-less compression shorts. Most of my training is done in an hour or so at decent intensity. So I don’t spend tons of time in the saddle. And, although I haven’t raced in a few years, I mainly raced sprint and oly with a long course thrown in every once in awhile. As I get back into racing after a life delay, that will be the structure again. I say this because my race tri suit is shammy-less. And I try to train like I fight.

You might want to experiment with the flat and angled positions of the saddle in addition to the standard setting. Have you done that yet?

Eric

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I haven’t done that yet. Tbh I was a little intimidated by all the adjustability of the bisaddle. Once I had found a pretty good setting for it, I was a bit scared to keep fine tuning it especially with the angled top plate. I also added a little edit to my previous post... not sure how relevant the addition is. I’m wondering if I could find a fitter in my area with bisaddle experience just for that bit of experienced guidance. Ty again, Eric.

You didn't answer my previous question, but I think it's highly relevant for you.

Have you tried lowering your seat significantly?

I'll almost bet it will solve your problems. In fact, truth is most (but not all) of the folks complaining about no-seat working for them, have a seat that's just too high. Even if it 'measures' correct, if you're getting seat pain, chafing, etc., first thing you should do before buying anything, or swapping any parts, is lower the seat significantly, and see if it solves your problems. It likely will - and from there gradually start raising the seat until you it's as high as it can go without bothering you. (You will lose power if it's too low.)

Anybody here who complains about their seat HAS to be able to answer this question "have you lowered your seat significantly and tried it out?" before going further shopping.

If you've done that, but it's not solving your problem, ok, try the bisaddle, etc. But I'm with Dev - seat too high is by far the most common source of problems.

I'll lower it before riding this evening. Will update

Edit: Also @Eric, do you have my original saddle height when I left you? Curious where the new adjustments land.

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SH: 755mm w/ 160mm cranks and PL 1.1 (I also have a note about 745mm off to the side)
SS: -30mm
SL: -8 degrees

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Updated videos.
The bisaddle configuration from the last video I sent felt pretty good. Some numbness still but not too bad. Front is a bit too narrow as my legs were rubbing the saddle mounting bracket.
Here is another video of it being slightly lowered, Still 10 degrees. Measured 29.5"
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Bh_d3B2NSMRMwdHzNOu8Bzaay2KDy0Hx/view?usp=sharing


ISM at 11 degrees. Felt really good as soon as I sat down on it. Almost felt like it was too low but I went ahead and did my workout. Another 2 hour workout. Still some numbness left after just like the bisaddle. No where near as bad as it was. I feel like the tilt is making it less painful to roll my hips as well. I suspect this will feel really good outdoors. I'll find out this week along with a Duathlon next weekend.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1En-iHFYSl8d0RRNK3mlcN-sADz2MJ3fQ/view?usp=sharing

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Can you elaborate on front being "too narrow" and the bracket?

Saddle height looks good now, perhaps ever so slightly high... what you can do is tilt nose up gradually while lowering post to maintain contact point height if you feel it's too nose low and also as you learn to sit properly and get more comfortable with your TT position.

Eric

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I can't believe I messed up my saddle height that much since our fitting. I must have added instead of subtracted something wrong when I was swapping out saddles.

Since I'm basically maxed out on saddle setback, this bracket in the photo is what my legs are rubbing on. Only with the Bisaddle. No issue on the ISM.




PS: Getting a bit off topic here but if I were getting a new bike (def not this year) what would you recommend for me? FWIW I currently get team discounts on Spec and Cervelo.

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I feel like if you have a Cervelo team deal you can't go wrong.

Weird about the rubbing on the seatpost bracket. My least favorite style of clamp FWIW. Are you sure you have the BiSaddle at the widest setting up front?

Eric

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No, I don't have it as wide as it will go. That is my next step

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Let’s start full wide on the BiSaddle and figure out where your pubic bones are at. We can go from there .

Eric

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Hey just wanted to check in with you and see how it's going and how the BiSaddle worked for you.

Eric

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Raced on the ISM last weekend as well as my long Tuesday sweet spot ride. In a pre race day ride I found 12 degrees was too tilted to remain stable when sitting up and taking my hands off the bars to take hydration etc so I put it back at 8 degrees

For the bisaddle, I found that with the wedge, I can only get super narrow or super wide(too wide for me) on the nose. So I took the wedge out and adjusted the nose too wide and then slightly in. Rode on it for 30min. This saddle is such a PITA to adjust. Kinda feels like sitting on a 2x4, though I feel like I can easier hang off the nose. Need more saddle time to determine how much numbness I get.

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that bracket looks like it can be turned around, no??

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Thanks, that's good feedback about the BiSaddle cushioning.

I agree with you though, for me BiSaddle and the like make it really easy to hang off the "nose" and get into a comfortable and powerful position.

Eric

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my least favorite saddle clamping hardware...

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Had a bike fit client the other day who came to me with a BiSaddle EXT "long" saddle and some "sage" advice from his local bike shop to put the saddle sides together as narrow as possible and the saddle very far forward on the rails.

After 15min of mucking around, before even getting over onto the fit bike we had the saddle front on the widest holes and spread as wide as it would go and the saddle about 5cm behind the BB, with some downward tilt. Client went from "I'm so uncomfortable, I hate my bike" (not to mention his saddle I assume) to "I can't believe how comfortable I am, I love my bike".

Point being, with the BiSaddle rails narrow, it very much looks like a regular road bike saddle, and my client very much had a road bike fit (on his tri bike, not good). Don't be afraid to get off your sit bones and onto your pelvic bones with soft tissue off the front... to do this your saddle will need to be well back, tilted down, and your pelvis rotated forward. When you rotate your pelvis forward, you effectively lengthen your back, so you might need more reach to go along with your BiSaddle.

Eric

Edit: Should also add that we used the "flat" platform (as opposed to "normal" and "rounded") and it worked well.

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I'm currently working out some saddle issues myself. I just had a fit and realized my persistent numbness is an equipment issue (wrong saddle), being an ISM PN3.1. I discovered it was too narrow after seeing my left rail was bent -2%. I think its 120mm. Had to tilt -10% and no numbness.

I tried the ISM PS1.0 and it felt okay but numbness again. Had it level. Width is 130mm

Got a Cobb JOF55 and trying tonight level. Width is 135mm.

I measured my sit bones at 110mm. Recommended sizing is 135mm to 140mm.

If the Cobb is a no go I may order a Fizik Transiro Large at 141mm.

Maybe Bisaddle if that doesn't work.

Big fan of the Mistica/Transiro saddle. Same concept as a widened BiSaddle IMO.

I think in this day and age there is zero reason to have a level saddle. All of my fit clients are leaving with about -10 degrees of tilt these days. Of course, you'll have to tilt other stuff to compensate for that :). I also think in this day and age anyone who is telling you to measure your sit bones for a TT fit is a snake oil salesman. The front of Mistica Large is 65mm wide which matches nicely with my apparently 65mm wide pubic bones.

For three of your saddles that you mentioned (JOF, BiSaddle, Mistica), tilt them down, slide them back, and hang off the front of them. You can do same for the ISM 1.0 (what about softer 1.1?) and 3.1, but I've also seen many people do just fine sitting on those saddles the "traditional" way.

Finally, and not that you're doing this, but if your saddle is comfortable when you're sitting up on the hoods, you're probably doing it wrong.

E

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I actually felt fine on the PN3.1 with -10%. A local bike shop owner loaned me some saddles to try at different widths and recommended starting level and going down--2-4% maximum saddle tilt.

Since I realized one of my rails was bent X -2% on the PN3.1 I figured it probably wasn't a good fit even if -10% felt fine. Since the rails are -11%, I didn't think the tilt was extreme but the bike shop owner thought that was excessive as did my fitter.

I was really hoping to find something that would work level or -2% maximum and going wider to take the weight off my soft tissue. Perhaps that's unrealistic?

I'm still leaning toward trying the Fizik you mentioned in a large 141mm, if the Cobb doesn't work.

Your bike shop and fitter are giving you bad, outdated advice. Don't start at zero and work down, start at -15 and work up. Those saddles are designed to be tilted down.

E

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Thanks for the feedback on saddle tilt. Based on what I did to my PN3.1 does it sound like a good idea to try a 135mm and then a 140mm (Fizik). I'm at least sure the saddles I've been riding are too narrow.

I was really hoping by going wider I could take the pressure off my soft tissue with no or less saddle tilt. Sounds like going wider can't hurt to a point and that tilt by as much as -15% is fine as well.

If you like wide the Large Fizik is 65mm, and the BiSaddle is pretty wide too. The JOF is 55mm as is the Small Fizik. Most of the ISMs are 55mm.

Report back when you try something new.

Eric

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The only saddle that I haven't gone numb on is my ISM PN3.1 at -10%. I also liked the ISM PS1.0 at the same tilt. The problem is the width or lack thereof (120mm and 130mm)

I love the wide front cutout of the ISM's, but while testing the Cobb JOF55 tonight (135mm) that was still too narrow. I need at least 140mm to support my sit bones.

I see your point about saddle tilt and that along with a cutout is probably the key to reducing my numbness. I do want at least 65mm up front and 145mm rear width to support me and keep me from rocking around side to side.

I think maybe we're talking past each other here... if you're still worried about sit bone width you're perhaps not hearing what I'm saying and possibly not sitting on, say, the widened front BiSaddle or Fizik 65mm saddle correctly. You hang off from your pubic bones... sit bones do not contact the saddle.

E

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I'm really leaning towards the Bisaddle. I need around 65mm to 70mm width up front like the ISM to relieve pressure on the pudenal artery and perineum. The split nose works for me with a generous cut out.

Measuring my rear sit bones at 110mm, I'm not totally sure on rear width. It would put me at 135mm to 140mm and the ISM PS series maxes out at 130mm. If my sit bones shouldn't contact the saddle perhaps this is a total non-factor? What width would be advisable based on my measurements?

At least increase saddle tilt between -10% and -15% to relieve some of the pressure on my current ISM. That should at least help me with my upcoming race in a couple of weeks until I sort out the saddle issue.

It's a non-factor. Sitting up on the hoods and back on your sit bones should be uncomfortable and encourage you to stay aero ;)

Like I said at the beginning of our conversation, my recent client came in with a narrowed BiSaddle and left with the same saddle all the way wide in front and his saddle about 5cm further back and 10 degrees tilted down than before.

E

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Thank you to the recent posters who brought this thread to my attention, and thank you in advance for any help you can offer!

I recently began riding my triathlon bike long distances after a long layoff. After 15 minutes, I am sliding off the front of the seat. I have two seats: An ISM PL 1.1 and a Fizik Mistica. Both do the same thing and it’s super annoying. My bib shorts start bunching up and chafing and I want to toss my bike into a ditch. I want to fix it without resorting to skateboard grip tape. I spent two hours yesterday riding around with tools and moving the seat forward and back and changing the tilt to fix it. No luck.

I am 48 years old. My fit was done with the ISM at level to -1 degree tilt around four years ago. I always wear bib shorts, not a triathlon kit, and this has never been troublesome before.

Here is a list of recent changes that come to mind:
- I am 4kg heavier. I want to blame Covid-19, but it’s obviously my fault.
- After several years of left knee and left hamstring pain, the seats on my road bike and XC mountain bike recently came down 15mm from fitting height. Problem fixed. No change to triathlon bike yet.
- I added long Culprit armrests, which are wonderful. I verified saddle to elbow distance is the same.
- I moved to Hawaii from South Dakota, where it is hotter and more humid. The roads are bumpier, and I am being bumped up and down. I am definitely sweating more and there is condensation splashing off my BTA bottle.

Any help or advice you can give me would be great. My next step was dropping the saddle 15-20mm. Then, lifting the armrests the same amount.

Thanks for the additional information. I rarely break aero, so like you say the rear width just isn't something that comes into play other than encouraging me to get back into aero for the few times I may break position.

In terms of relieving pressure in the soft tissue a saddle tilt, fore/aft and seatpost height all come into play.

Given my preference for a wide split nose with a cutout and the versatility I'm leaning towards a BiSaddle SRT 2.0 Bonneville with Cutout. I've managed to bend my left rail on my ISM PN3.1 at X -2% after two years of riding and probably need to look a replacing it anyway. The ISM PS 2.0 is another solid option.

What would be your recommmendation? I really appreciate you lending so much valuable insight.

I saw a fair amount about user experience (UX) design and measurement, so this thread piqued my interest. disclaimer: I own a saddle company start-up.

As with Dan's comments on pressure mapping, I'm most interested in how that information/data is being used to guide a decision: does the data get fed into well defined and validated models or is it curiosity-research? I see a lot of the latter.

Having done thousands of bike fits with a particular interest in saddles (#saddlebattle for you pubes fans), I realized quickly that it takes rotating through 5+ saddles in the fit studio followed by ~15 hours of outside ride time for someone to truly know what they want.

I did create the following survey: https://virginiatech.qualtrics.com/...m/SV_bQUiW23krXWfWXr
and I collected hundreds of responses and used that analysis to guide the design of my saddles. I also collected thousands of responses as part of a study I did for DeSoto that examined short + saddle interaction and I've used those findings, as well.

What we came away with was the need for a wide and deep channel, consistent width of the nose of the saddle going back as far as possible before flaring out, a not too wide nose, but wide enough to provide ample ischial tuberosity support, a nose that is at a -4 degree angle with the rails are level and the rear is the same angle as on our road saddle, and the front 3cm to be ultra grippy on top of the nose but the rear the smoothness of a road saddle so that when in the aerobars, the rider is locked in with that -4 degree angle and when sitting up, it feels as good as a road saddle (rare for TT saddles).

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I'd try the BiSaddle SRT max width and also play with normal vs. flat "tilt" bodies.

E

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Can you refresh me on Dan's comments on pressure mapping? Dan fed fit data into the FIST model and came out with a good product, but I don't personally know about saddles.

I'm surprised your user-generated feedback led you to the pretty good conclusions you got... sounds like a good start. I'm of the opinion that people don't know what they want, they only know it when they see it. I also have a corollary that some people are on the wrong saddle and some people are sitting on the right saddle wrongly and need to be coached, and that position is a HUGE factor in saddle choice. A perfect saddle in one position will or could be horrible in another.

thanks for weighing in,
E

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should note the protocol: on fit bike, rotating through saddles as blind as possible, surveying the feedback on each saddle 3 times. Number 1 rule in UX research: don't ask the user's opinion, observe their behavior. So much, as I'm sure you've seen, is watching the riders' body language...

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It's hard to imagine there's one universal answer to this issue. About a decade ago, I spent an entire year trying out 15-20 saddles and found that the Selle San Marco Aspide fit my anatomy (decent - though not large- sized thighs/quads and butt) the best of all the saddles I tried. Initially I went for the Aspide with the faux leather covering (now called Microfeel), but then I took a shot at the full carbon fiber shell (super thin), no covering, and only 96 grams. Somehow it works and I'm fine training and racing on it. It's discontinued but you can find some on ebay The closest model they make now is the Aspide Superleggera Narrow at 109 g. (and a lot more expensive than it used to be). Bottom line is you need to try a bunch of different types and see what works - - trial and error at its best.

I decided to try the Bisaddle SRT 2.0 with Cutout. I'm pretty stoked!!!

Get any riding in this weekend?

E

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Full disclosure, I like my Bisaddle very much, except that I would have liked for it to last longer than two years with light use.

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You have one of a bad patch of uppers -unless you use chamois creams which sometimes lead to these cracking uppers as well- but we sell quite an amount of this saddle and also had some of these cracking saddle uppers which were sold all around the same time.
Contact Brick at BiSaddle and show the pics. You will get a new upper send. They gave us all new uppers for our clients.
Very good CS on their part.

Jeroen

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are you riding in a road or tri application? Also, can you take and post a pic from the side?

thanks,
E

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The saddle is mounted on top of my Cervelo P3 in a tri application. The vast majority of my riding is on my road bike, so that I can better see the road. Maybe 15% of my riding is on my tri bike.

I will reach out to see about getting the upper replaced, as I was an early adopter of this saddle.

125 pounds of weight over no more than 40 rides should not cause it to decompose that fast, even in the dry climate of Utah.

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DFL > DNF > DNS

Oh certainly, I agree. I was more interested in how you were riding the saddle for my fit education.

thanks
Eric

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

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In my opinion, several key points on this discussion:

1) Measuring sit bones is useless. Depending on your position can change this measurement greatly.

2) There is no good or bad saddle. Everyone's rear end is different. There is only what is good for that one person

3) Given #2, the best thing to do is to go to a professional fitter who has numerous different saddles you can try out while on the trainer in your riding position (and to make sure you are getting proper hip rotation to enable a flat spine).

Agreed on all counts.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

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You are aware that Eric is quite a superb fitter ;-)? I think he probably meant to see how different people use this BiSaddle model.
I’m using it and sitting all the way back on the saddle, but I see quite a lot of different customers during my fit sessikns using it at a different spot sitting on it. And all liking it as well. BiSaddle took a serious piece of the ISM pie since we introduced this brand.

Jeroen

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Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

I had the same issue late last year or early this year after only 1 year of use. BiSaddle did send me new uppers without any quibble, but it leaves me somewhat dubious about the lifespan of what for me is a very expensive saddle. I bought it with the combo of short and long uppers for experimentation and got caught for import duty coming into Ireland. So it cost about €500, easily the most expensive saddle I've bought. I too was told it may have been from a bad batch or this wouldn't have happened.....unless I used a lot of chamois cream.
I use chamois cream occasionally. Typically for very long rides, especially if they're in the wet.
A saddle that can't tolerate chamois cream seem unfit for purpose to me. Seems like you might want to make it pretty clear in the product description that a fair cross section of riders will have to change their habits if they want to use it!

This aside I've been happy wit the saddle. But it does stop me freely recommending it.

I did get to use my new Bisaddle SRT 2.0 Bonneville this morning. I measured and rode two 44m Zwift Active Recovery Workouts. Mid ride I did make a few tweaks. I widened the front by 30mm from factory. I also started level as instructed and lowered to -3% tilt. The slight changes helped a lot. It's the best I've ever felt post ride. Fingers crossed for continued improvements with small incremental adjustments.

* I did notice a small amount of pressure on the inside of my left groin. I may consider using the flattening wedge and possibly narrowing the back a little to alleviate that pressure point.

Looking to the large depth of knowledge here for some help in improving my saddle situation. I have a Cervelo P-series. This is my only bike. I use it for all my training, indoors and outdoors. About half my rides are in the aerobars and the other half of them are with people on road bikes so I am sitting up with my hands on the basebar. I was riding an ISM PR2.0 with 40 series foam for a few years. It was fairly comfortable when in the aerobars. But I did not like the upwards angle of the back of the seat when I was riding on the basebar. The upwards slope of the back of the seat felt like it was pushing me forward too much. I switched to the bisaddle SRT. The back of the saddle is flatter, which I like. I was able to get the nose width (54mm) and back width (140mm) where I wanted. I liked the shortness of the saddle, it allowed me to ride on the basebar and in the aerobars without having to move my hips much forward or backwards. This kept my hips in a comfortable position for pedaling whether on the basebar or in the aerobars. I have always found the bisaddle to not have enough padding. I cracked the plastic at the front of the saddle for both of the surfaces within 4 months of installing the saddle. Bisaddle covered new surfaces under warranty, but I don't want to keep a saddle that doesn't last a whole season.

I was thinking of trying the JCOB 55, Selle SMP T2 and the ISM PL 1.1 next.

What saddles would you recommend I try to replace my bisaddle?

I would recommend an ISM PR2.0. The saddle wasn't pushing you forward too much, something else was *not* pushing you back enough. It's hard to find a saddle that works well in the aero position *and* when on the hoods.

E

Edit: If you already had an ISM, I'd try the PL or PN 1.1 saddles next.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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I haven’t ridden the ISM saddles since I was forced to in 2014-15 but regardless of how far I hung myself off the front of the saddle they were too wide for me. The ISM reps always just told me I was riding it wrong and then told me to use hydrocortisone cream to help with the “break in” period. It was so bad that I pulled out all the staples from the plastic cover and base, trimmed the plastic base down to a narrower width and glued it all back together. I had GeBioMized pressure mapping done to on my modified saddle and the stock version to confirm that it was an improvement for me. Sadly I really pissed some folks off by trying to find a way to ride comfortably. Next time I rejoined the team, they removed the modified saddle and put a stock one back on.

I of course have heard of this but cannot relate, as I always feel like the saddles aren't wide enough, not too wide. I've always wondered where the disconnect was. Like, when you hang off the front, how is there anything to rub? Or, am I doing it wrong?

FWIW, I use the Fizik Tritone/Mistica/Transiro "Large" which is 65mm wide and rounded off. Saddle is like 9cm behind BB and tilted down slightly.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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Old Roadie here, but I'll throw in my two cents.

Saddle Height. There's a bazillion methods/formulas/theories for this. A long time ago I stumbled across one that made a lot of sense and, at least for me, is also the most comfortable. You produce maximum power when standing going up a steep hill. Your body will automatically set the correct knee angle, ankle angle, etc., to achieve this (and it also accounts for the cleat position). Your saddle is at the correct height when you can stop pedaling at bottom dead center, lock your leg (without changing knee angle, etc.), and slide back onto your saddle without changing anything (you don't have to raise up OR lower yourself).

I ride old school wide nose saddles, like the old Felt Super Lites, but a birds eye view looking down you'd see it's not perfectly straight, but offset to the right. So, when I get into the aero bars and slide forward onto the nose, my bits & pieces hang to the left of the nose (I naturally "hang" to the left).

Hope this helps someone.

I'm currently working out some saddle issues myself.


Same.

For road riding - I rode the original or classic Fizik Arione for years - never had a problem. Then all of a sudden last year it did not really work for me any more. Something changed.

Since then I've been on a bit of saddle search and not found one that is REALLY great for me - all are just OK, ie by about 3 hours, I'm ready to get off the bike. I could keep going but, the saddle discomfort is not really killing me, but it's not great either.

So far I have tried the Fizik Arione Open, the Arione R3, the Antares, and now I have the Shimano Pro Stealth - all of these have been saddles we have had kicking around the home shop - so I have not been out of pocket for any of them.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I have been riding the same Arione for like 15 years on the road. Love it. Wonder what changed. Maybe loss of muscle mass as we age?

Eric

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

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I have been riding the same Arione for like 15 years on the road. Love it. Wonder what changed. Maybe loss of muscle mass as we age?


Eric,

Not sure!

Same here. Been a dedicated Arione rider since they first came out. Generally, the saddle feels too narrow now. The wider platform of the Pro Stealth feels better. The problem I have with the Pro Stealth is there is only one location to sit on it - right in the pocket. Also the padding is VERY thin and it's a pretty firm ride. It's not bad, but it's not super great.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I remember the tribike fitter would ask

“Which side do you hang to?”

I always said left so they pointed the nose of the saddle to the right slightly

I just moved my whole body to one side since I had a convenient leg length discrepancy.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I've realized that I prefer a wide position front and back with about 3% saddle tilt. The front width of 60mm to 65mm. It came stock at 55mm. This width allows more of a cutout and also keeps the weight on my pubic rami. I get better stability and weight distribution.

I also prefer 135mm rear width, which was stock. My sit bones measured 93mm, which makes 135mm unusually wide, but I can feel full sit bone support. The majority of my weight is on the pubic bones, but just a small amount is to the rear. Odd, but I feel more overall stability and comfort going wider.

I'm the same.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Interestly I saw a site that talked about useable saddle width at the rear. It mentioned to deduct 1cm off the total width of each side for useable width. At 135mm total width that puts me at 115mm. My sit bone measurement is 93mm. Bisaddle recommends adding 1cm to 4cm. Adding 2cm puts me at 113mm or around 115mm. Based off useable width I'm spot on. The 1cm deduction from either side eliminates the outer edge of the saddle that curves. Based off the measurements it makes sense why I feel better with that width.

Glad you are having some success.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Thanks Eric! I appreciate your input and advice. It's been very helpful.

Studying your bike for unusual wear patterns can also help. The attached images are from my training bike/test mule that has well over 20K miles on it. I noticed that the black anodizing was wearing away on only one side of the seat post. This, plus looking at the wear pattern on my street shoes, helped me realize I needed an angled wedge between the cleat-shoe of my right foot!

I’ve also got a P series and love my PR 3.0. It’s like the heaviest saddle on the planet (over 360 grams!) and looks dorky, but it’s heavily padded and as comfortable as it gets. We all know that comfort = speed, even on a tri bike.

For sure. Comfort equals power and aerodynamics.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Any opinions about syncros belcarra tri?

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Sorry if my english is pretty bad, I am not english native

Hi, thanks for reaching out. I feel like this saddle is just a "normal" saddle with a cutout, and I'm not sure about the width of the front end. I think I'd like this as a road saddle.

Eric

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Thanks!!

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Sorry if my english is pretty bad, I am not english native

I finally ended up on the Fizik Mystica Kium (Large) and I'm in heaven. I lowered my seatpost and went with a saddle tilt of 5%. I'm in total comfort now. I've actually been able to rotate my hips forward on this saddle and it's mind blowing the difference. In three weeks my FTP has gone from 245 to 270. I see myself continuing to make gains as it's feeling easy.

I found it cool we ended up on the same saddle. My biggest issues with BiSaddle were the lack of density in the foam padding. It was breaking down on the rails and my male anatomy was bottoming out on the exposed frame. The Fizik has very dense foam padding and the difference was immediately noticeable. Did a four hour Zwift ride last Saturday with no numbness or discomfort whatsoever.

I will say the customer service with BiSaddle was second to none. They are really exceptional people. It just didn't work for me, but thankfully I found a solution after about six months of tinkering. I learned so much that I'd have to say it was worth it. Thanks for your help through the process.

Awesome! You nailed it on both the benefits of a downward tilted saddle and the quality of the good people at BiSaddle. Thanks for the feedback.

Eric

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Work up until I feel that I don't slide off my saddle down anymore and it feels ok?

Assuming your pads are tilted too, yes.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Hi everyone, I'm hoping to solicit some help fitting my bisaddle. I I previously rode an ism 2.1 and predictable got a saddle sore in the right side of my groin. I ride aero and sitting up on this saddle while locked into a wheel off trainer. I decided on the srt 2.0 thinking that I needed something a touch wider as I suspected my right pubic ramus was falling off to the right on the ism. Now that I have the srt 2.0 and had it set up like the ism except lowering the seatpost and have progressively gone wider. I try to ride near the back of the saddle with sit bones on the largest gray rectangles. I'm getting multiple saddle sores on the right and left of my groin likely where the srt saddle flares outward. I've been trying to do microadjustments with rides on my trainer, but it's hard to tell if it helps when I'm already uncomfortable. At one point I thought it was set, but now things seem worse and don't know where or how I should be adjusting. It's more uncomfortable than what I was dealing with before. I'm happy to provide further info if I can. Thank you for your insight.

Andrew

From what you are describing i think you are riding that saddle a bit too far at the back. Did you try riding it further forward?

Jeroen

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Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

2 things

I got a bisaddle approx 1 month ago

Many adjustments as you know.

I gave had a ton of saddles and always some pain in the wheel off trainer.

Bisaddle has helped a lot I agree with the poster above sounds like you are sitting too far back

But what helped more than any saddle and took 10 seconds?

I raised the front end approx 3” by putting a block under the frint wheel holder

And wow so much better immediately.

May work for you as well

I’m using the wahoo kickr core which I thought was a level setup. But I’ll try scooting forward and see how that goes. Even on the trainer I have to believe that saddle sores are preventable.

You want to ride with your pubic bones on the wide tips of the saddle, not with sit bones on the back of the saddle. Can you try that?

Eric

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

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My bike was level too. But the pain was horrible. But I read somewhere about raising the front approx 3”. Did it just a couple days ago

Went from being in pain for 2 hours, having to get off the bike and rub ‘down there’ repeatedly.

To going 2 hours yesterday not having to get off the bike at all

And in half distance it doesn’t hurt at all so the saddle is fine on the road.

 

I just moved my whole body to one side since I had a convenient leg length discrepancy.

E[/quote]That is more or less what I did until I started riding with a left 165 and a right 170 crankarm. I agree with something you said earlier that eh ISM was not quite wide enough. I just to use an arione tri and rest on the left side of my pelvis.
I had a bit of an epiphany after i bought a bisaddle and decided to give the ISM another tri and realized I was riding it wrong before. I don't like it as much as the bisaddle, but I only have one bisaddle and swapping the seat/post won't work on my tribike.
When I first bought my bisaddle, I though I would want the nose as far apart as possible, but that rubbed the insides of my thighs too much. I ended up with the nose quite close together and the rear about the same 145mm wide that my other preferred saddles were. And then something different happened; I realized I could ride the aero position (I use aero bars on both road and gravel bike) with my sit bones on the back of the saddle and the cutout allowed me to use both sit bones and the pelvis on both sides to distribute pressure. Now aero is the most comfortable position on the saddle. After four hours of climbing, my sit bones are aching from the more-dense-than-I prefer padding on the rear, but if I lean in to the aero position it redistributes the pressure. Now instead of dreading the aero position at the end of long rides, that is my go-to survive to the end position.
If I was into anything longer than 40k on the tri bike then I would definite buy another bisaddle.

Have been struggling lately with fore/aft tilt on the ISM PN 4.0 which I am trying vs the more tried/true 3.1 which I used to soften the old 3.0 that I had......I noted your comments on saddle tilt and wanted to get more guidance.....are you saying that tilt range should be no more than 4 degrees down to avoid sliding forward? Also, thoughts on 4.0 vs 3.0....with the extra wide part of 4.0 do you think that saddle needs to be moved back more than 3.0? Thanks and all the best.....

Saddle tilt should be at the maximum angle that provides support, comfort and a uniform position. If you're sliding you need to tilt up in small increments to reach the point where you have max tilt and comfort with no sliding.

The saddle tilt is irrelevant provided you have comfort and don't slide. 2%, 4%, 6%, 9%, doesn't matter. What matters is comfort and position. Those are just meaningless numbers.

I rode lower this weekend with more weight anteriorly on my pubic bones. During hard intervals I did sit up a bit, but still anteriorly tilting to keep more pressure forward rather than on my ischial tuberosities. This was better than past rides, and I still need to focus more in the future on the trainer. Is it reasonable to expect to find a position in the trainer that doesn't create saddle sores? Thanks again.

Andrew

Unfortunately there is the case that might not be possible for you. In my case for my road bike I can ride for quite some time outside and not get sore until after a few hours (when in the past had the fitness to ride that long). But using same road bike on a trainer or even rollers would start to get sore around 1-1.5 hours. But riding outside has typically been easier comfort wise compared to a fixed position trainer.

Same with my Tri bike but that's even worse as that one lives on the trainer now most of the year. What helped a little bit more for comfort was building my own full motion rocker plate (with both front and back motion and side to side tilt). But it wasn't some crazy miracle cure all, for me at least, compared to others on here who have reported they went from barely being able to do 1 or 2 hours on the trainer to going 3+ with no issues. For me it helped for a little better comfort but didn't fully alleviate me get from saddle soreness.

I also have some BiSaddles and using one of them so far. Did end up trying out the rounding wedge which for me it has helped for trainer riding. Still trying to dual in that position but it's much better than in standard setup. Only thing I don't like about BiSaddle is the padding material they use. On that front if they can get something similar feel to what ISM offers along with different firmness level offerings I think it will truly become the one of the best saddles on the market. But I bought mine a just over a year ago so maybe something has changed on that front.

Maybe give the rounding or flat wedge a go if you can't dial it in with width and saddle tilt adjustments.

You shouldn't get saddle sores if you're on the right saddle. I used to get them on my ISM PN 3.1 (Narrow). I'm on a Fizik Mystica (Large) now and I never get them. My pubic bones have plenty of support all the way across. There is never any shifting to find a comfort zone.

Thanks. Any thoughts on ism 4.0? Hard to find reviews. Seems much softer than 3.0 which has same padding rating of 30.

Does 'riding lower' mean you hunched down lower, or does it mean you lowered your seatpost?

Sufficiently lowered seatposts often cure saddles sores. You gotta lower it enough first to get rid of them, then work your way back up gradually (there is a power cost to having a too-low seatpost.)

Both saddles are 30 padding level which is mid range for ISM. I had the PN3.1 at 40. Tried the PS 1.0 at 15. I liked the 15 and hated the 40 padding. I found myself bottoming out on the rails at 40 level. I never felt a thing on 15 level padding. The 40 padding level felt amazing at first. Over the course of anything over 30 minutes it was pretty brutal for me.

thanks. my observation is that the 30 level padding on the 3.0 is way more firm than the 30 level padding on 4.0. I wish ISM would opine, since in theory the padding should be the same; there is a notable difference.......material to the ride......the 4.0 is more spongy if that is a way to describe it.

It's totally conceivable that the padding could feel different from one saddle to the next, even if padding density is equal. Perhaps saddle measurements could be a little different on each saddle hence making it feel different.

Padding is very individual. I found I prefer more dense and less cushy padding. I don't like a hard saddle. For rides over 60m I need support, so having firmness is important. The Fizik Mystica was the perfect solution for me. Not too hard, but also not a sponge effect where I'm bottoming out on the rails.

Not really hunched but moved forward on the saddle and really focused on that anterior pelvic tilt. So much so that you can’t sit up without rolling pelvis backwards. Seemed to be better tolerated.

Sounds like you haven't dropped your seatpost height sufficently for starters, feel fre to correct me if I'm wrong, but that's where you should start if you haven't done that first.

That was my first move when I got the bisaddle. It’s padding seems to stack up pretty high compared to others. For whatever reason I’m thinking that I got lazy about my position when riding and was sitting up a bunch. Paying more attention to position, widening the seat arms and lowering the saddle seem to have helped quite a bit. I’m still fiddling but my primary concern of excessive saddle sores has much improved!

Andrew

Good move.

And if you haven't yet, if you're getting recurrent saddle sores, first step is to lower your seat - A LOT. Like way down. Even if you got pro bike fit. I suspect you haven't lowered your seat enough if you're just trying to get the thicker bisaddle to match your prior saddle height.

I lowered mine by nearly 2 inches when I was dealing with a saddle sore on a new bike, and gradually moved it back up to near the original height as the sore went away. I think people underestimate how low they should drop that saddle if they're getting these saddle sores. If the seat is too high to relieve the pressure (even not excessively high), no saddle will help. Even the most ridiculously padded and heavy ones (yep, tried it.)

Lowering it too drastically is terrible advice. He'll destroy his quads and could even result in injury. Bike fit adjustments should be gradual. A lot of people are too high but the seatpost can definitely be too low. I'm not sure how you can tell him a specific measurement of two inches to lower the seatpost from behind a computer screen.

Not it's not terrible advice. It's a first step.

You aren't supposed to LEAVE the saddle that low. You are only using it as a first 'extreme low' position so you can get clear of 'saddle sore' position for sure, and then work your way up, often quickly. I never stayed at that initial position for more than one workout.

Having a too low also is highly unlikely to result in injury. Destroy your quads? No friggin' way. Fatigue them more than you should, yes, but you're not going to tear a quad muscle or tendon if you've been already cycling more than a trivial amount. It's actualy super-safe. The main issue with a seat that's a bit too low is a drop in power. But that's about it.

I can't give him a specific amount, but for sure, it's gotta be lower than he imagined when he started - sounds like he barely moved it down. In fact, i'll bet that a large majority of the posters on these 'woe is me saddle sores with every seat' didn't do this exact step, and most of them would be either completely cured or at minimal significantly improved with a slightly lowered seatpost at least until they acclimate and can get the seat back up to 'pro bike fit' height.

I went through this whole thing for years myself, before learning about this on this very forum. Tried 8 different seats, across 2 different bikes, pro bike fit, etc. So many types of bike shorts from hi to low end, bike creams, etc. The ONLY thing that made a difference was lowering the seat - as was recommended on this very forum. Yeah, it took me like 3 years or so to finally slay that recurrent saddle sore problem, but I rarely get them anymore.

So often here people get a bike fit and assume they never have to mess with the seat height when they're getting the sores over and over. You can lower the seat, and bring it back up to that 'ideal' height once your over the sores and better acclimated to those spots.

Eric - How specifically did you adjust the Bisaddle to accommodate your LLD? I have a slightly shorter left leg / higher right hip, leading to a nagging saddle sore on the right side (mostly an issue on the indoor trainer).

Asking for a friend...

Is there such a thing as, for lack of a better description, a vulva pasty that's intended to keep the tenderest bits out of contact with aggravating influences? The riverbeds of the Little Grand Canyons tend not to be quite as hardy as the terrain on the rim, if ya know what I mean.

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Eliot
blog thing - strava thing

you saw the front page story and/or the forum thread on the de soto seat pads for tri, yes?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

thread yes, article no, until you mentioned it :)

there's a chance this ladyfriend has the wrong saddle (this is on her MTB, FWIW), although she put quite a bit of effort into settling on the one she has.

the gist of my question is that portions of the ladygarden become exposed that aren't used to being exposed, and that skin is on a short path to unhappiness as soon as it's in contact with anything.

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Eliot
blog thing - strava thing

it's a lot easier to find a good saddle for an MTB than for a tri bike. she has - what - asked you to solve her problem?

1. go to bike shop.
2. try different saddles on bike.
3. if not enough saddles, or if the shop has no way to execute this, go to different bike shop.
4. repeat.

or, does she have cycling apparel? if not, i consider that a prime suspect for the problem. just spitballing here of course.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I have a vested interest in the happiness of the ladygarden

yes, has all the correct kit, and no undies underneath bib/shorts

unfortunately we're in the relative boondocks from a retail selection standpoint, and no one here does the "ship a box of saddles and keep your favorite" thing

the particular neighborhood of the ladygarden that's unhappy is the (NSFW search term) interlabial sulcus aka "riverbed of the little grand canyon" as referenced above

do you reckon that this is solvable with saddle selection and doesn't require further sorcery?

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Eliot
blog thing - strava thing

I have this saddle. Currently my favorite and I've tried the ISM 3.1, bontager hilo, Fizik mystica, sqlab Tri, and most recently the jcob type 5.

The joc was too wide and firm for me. ISM 3.1 was too soft and was causing some discomfort from rubbing. The belcarra Tri is kind of in between those two. It's much narrower on the back end than the jcob which too me seems way too wide. It's light weight.

I'd be interested in trying a dash saddle. Interesting design.