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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Great point. But you also aren't saying every Tom Brady touchdown is a cheater touchdown because the sport has evolved...EVERY TIME HE THROWS ONE...haha

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]
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The Guardian wrote:
synthetic wrote:
dfru wrote:
Otherwise my 10 mile bike TT PR is on my steel tubed 14 speed nishiki with Scott DH bars, aerodisc fabric wheel cover, 19mm tires pumped to 125 psi and I can never duplicate those conditions from 1989 again!!!


you can have a classic bike PR and modern bike PR. lionel is comparing to a different gear era PR.


Do you have a different PR for every pair of shoes you have ever raced in; different PRs for each bike (including every time you choose a new brand of tires); different PR for each pool you race in?

yes i have times for my road bike vs tri bike efforts. it matters to factor in this when the equipment change is drastic in reducing times. 40s between two bikes on a 40km TT isnt much. 4 minutes is.

I used to be part of an running NGB and saw across the board the dramatic time improvements of these shoes. jack daniels tables getting screwed up. For instance that recent half WR set makes the person capable of a sub 40s 400m....
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
The Guardian wrote:
synthetic wrote:
dfru wrote:
Otherwise my 10 mile bike TT PR is on my steel tubed 14 speed nishiki with Scott DH bars, aerodisc fabric wheel cover, 19mm tires pumped to 125 psi and I can never duplicate those conditions from 1989 again!!!


you can have a classic bike PR and modern bike PR. lionel is comparing to a different gear era PR.


Do you have a different PR for every pair of shoes you have ever raced in; different PRs for each bike (including every time you choose a new brand of tires); different PR for each pool you race in?


yes i have times for my road bike vs tri bike efforts. it matters to factor in this when the equipment change is drastic in reducing times. 40s between two bikes on a 40km TT isnt much. 4 minutes is.

I used to be part of an running NGB and saw across the board the dramatic time improvements of these shoes. jack daniels tables getting screwed up. For instance that recent half WR set makes the person capable of a sub 40s 400m....

Uh...no it doesn't.

It makes the calculation of estimating times wrong. It doesn't make them capable of sub 40. Science.

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [ntl_tri] [ In reply to ]
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ntl_tri wrote:
synthetic wrote:

No. To set my 5k PR, I ran the same exact shoes as before from 5 years ago with holes in the toe box. Not saying he should go that far, but for it to be a PR - must be besting your effort with near exact same conditions and gear.


Man, I just got new running shoes. Sad I'll never be able to set another PR. :(

lolol 😂

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [ntl_tri] [ In reply to ]
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ntl_tri wrote:
synthetic wrote:

No. To set my 5k PR, I ran the same exact shoes as before from 5 years ago with holes in the toe box. Not saying he should go that far, but for it to be a PR - must be besting your effort with near exact same conditions and gear.


Man, I just got new running shoes. Sad I'll never be able to set another PR. :(
If using new running shoes is cheating then fuck it just get on the gear and go for it in old shoes. The rest of us are cheating already...
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
ntl_tri wrote:
synthetic wrote:

No. To set my 5k PR, I ran the same exact shoes as before from 5 years ago with holes in the toe box. Not saying he should go that far, but for it to be a PR - must be besting your effort with near exact same conditions and gear.


Man, I just got new running shoes. Sad I'll never be able to set another PR. :(

If using new running shoes is cheating then fuck it just get on the gear and go for it in old shoes. The rest of us are cheating already...

I am not fast like you competing for prize purse money. I am just in competition against what my "personal" body can do "best".
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [s13tx] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe he could have beaten Goodwin if he's swam faster.
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
yes i have times for my road bike vs tri bike efforts. it matters to factor in this when the equipment change is drastic in reducing times. 40s between two bikes on a 40km TT isnt much. 4 minutes is.

I used to be part of an running NGB and saw across the board the dramatic time improvements of these shoes. jack daniels tables getting screwed up. For instance that recent half WR set makes the person capable of a sub 40s 400m....

Right, ok...you keep talking about treating PR like a scientific experiment, but the question you're asking is "How fast can I do this distance under these conditions with this equipment?" which means the only variable you can change is yourself, through training. Fine if you want to think about it that way.

But that's not how 99% percent of the world thinks of PR's...we're all asking the question "How fast can I do this distance, period?" and to answer that question we can change all sorts of variables...equipment, clothing, nutrition, time of day, weather, ourselves through training, etc.

So in most peoples' minds, you don't have two different 40km PR's...you have two different times, one where you chose equipment better suited to what you were trying to do (go fast). The faster time is your PR. Congratulations.

You can think about your own PR's however you want, but expecting everyone else to measure their PR's by your obscure, self-imposed rules doesn't make much sense.
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
...I am just in competition against what my "personal" body can do "best".

I can respect this, and in a sense feel the same. I know that when I wear my vaporflys I'm going to run a bit faster than when I'm wearing regular trainers, just as I know when I have a really fast bike split because there was a tailwind the whole time that I haven't suddenly become a much faster biker than I was when I was riding into the wind.

I think that in general people are wacky about and over-invested in PRs (maybe encouraged by strava, etc), and I think that in triathlon the idea of doing something like going to Augusta to get a "swim PR" is stupid.

But the idea that one can't have a PR with new equipment, or that what is now "standard" equipment, is likewise a bit much.
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [dand] [ In reply to ]
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dand wrote:
synthetic wrote:

...I am just in competition against what my "personal" body can do "best".


I can respect this, and in a sense feel the same. I know that when I wear my vaporflys I'm going to run a bit faster than when I'm wearing regular trainers, just as I know when I have a really fast bike split because there was a tailwind the whole time that I haven't suddenly become a much faster biker than I was when I was riding into the wind.

I think that in general people are wacky about and over-invested in PRs (maybe encouraged by strava, etc), and I think that in triathlon the idea of doing something like going to Augusta to get a "swim PR" is stupid.

But the idea that one can't have a PR with new equipment, or that what is now "standard" equipment, is likewise a bit much.

but its not standard. not every athlete is required to shell out $200+ for shoes.
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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Well... I sort of indicated that with quotation marks, but they're commercially available and one of the many pieces of equipment that some will have. I've raced swimming in a shitty wetsuit and riding an non-aero roadbike while others were rocking wetsuits with nice, flexible shoulders and riding aero bikes with disc wheels.

But more importantly... you're talking about a PR. Why does what others are wearing matter to what one person wears when running a PR? Or, what does the question standard equipment across competition between different people matter when determining one individual's PR? If someone starts running today, wears nothing but alphaflys, do they have a PR?

(Again, I'm somewhat with you in the sense that if one is interested purely in what they've achieved through conditioning, one should realize that an equipment advantage didn't just make one more fit.)
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [Sbernardi] [ In reply to ]
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Everybody is missing the BIGGEST point here. When you watch this video, and after watching all Lionel's youtube videos and meeting him in person, I have a strong inclination based off his body language what he was thinking post-5k run. Based off his expression he was like, "Holy shit I just ran what of my fastest 5k's ever and it didn't even feel that hard. Why the hell didn't I race in the Nike Vaporfly's before!"
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [BT_DreamChaser] [ In reply to ]
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BT_DreamChaser wrote:
Everybody is missing the BIGGEST point here. When you watch this video, and after watching all Lionel's youtube videos and meeting him in person, I have a strong inclination based off his body language what he was thinking post-5k run. Based off his expression he was like, "Holy shit I just ran what of my fastest 5k's ever and it didn't even feel that hard. Why the hell didn't I race in the Nike Vaporfly's before!"
Yup, I said it before, not running in AF's at Daytona prob cost him 25k in prize money.
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [BT_DreamChaser] [ In reply to ]
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BT_DreamChaser wrote:
Everybody is missing the BIGGEST point here. When you watch this video, and after watching all Lionel's youtube videos and meeting him in person, I have a strong inclination based off his body language what he was thinking post-5k run. Based off his expression he was like, "Holy shit I just ran what of my fastest 5k's ever and it didn't even feel that hard. Why the hell didn't I race in the Nike Vaporfly's before!"

VERY good point - Iden has been in some form of this shoe for a couple years now. It was like, oh...level playing field...game on!

It would be interesting if Talbot or David chimed in with how many runs Lionel had in the shoes before the 5k, as they looked brand new.

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:


Look. we know LS can get similar shoes to what he ran during his XC PR days. so the true test of improvement, would be for him to try again with similar shoes to what he used ... likely race flats which are still made to this day. But I guess that wont sell --> improving with just training better. need some gimmick.




"Race day comes, and I miss my mile swim goal time by a mere 4 seconds! Argh… Now I have to wait another year for this proper distance mile swim race (Sharkfest – San Diego). If somehow I knew to kill myself more on the final 100yd in. Checking my watch at that point, the cost would have been more than 4 seconds, since you stop the swim stroke to look. Thankfully, I have found the solution: The marlin audio feed pacing device ( https://platysens.com/marlin/ ). Because it is bone conduction audio, it should be legal for most races (but check the rules anyways) as opposed to an in-ear device."





This a cut and past off of your website..... Obviously you are not opposed to new tech to set a PR in sport. Here is some crazy, bone-conduction, timing device that you are going to use so you don't have to check your watch while swimming and lose time. How is this different for you? Was this device available and used by you when you set your current PR? Anyways. It just seemed odd for a guy who puts himself out as such a technical Luddite to have this nice write up of this new product.

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [wannabefaster] [ In reply to ]
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I questioned him about this before - he said he lost it so it doesn't count against him or some sort of crap. Apparently somehow not having it to use anymore makes it irrelevant or something.

I don't know what to make of it...lol

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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wannabefaster wrote:
trying to troll


dfru wrote:
I questioned him about this before - he said he lost it so it doesn't count against him or some sort of crap. Apparently somehow not having it to use anymore makes it irrelevant or something.

I don't know what to make of it...lol

scroll up to my 40s vs 4min comment. 4s doesnt make much difference, nor does this device some how propel me forward with less effort.

Look at all the races records are being set when run in these shoes. Why are these athletes still standing? Before you would see them crumble to their knees from the effort. Even in the recent hoka rocket 2 100k attempt, the 2nd place guy kept running way past the finish line.
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [lyla] [ In reply to ]
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lyla wrote:
Plus, Frodeno is running Hokas, so must copy him.

Looks like you haven't followed, Lionel doesn't copy what Jan is doing anymore, now he copies everything Gustav Iden is doing :-)
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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dfru wrote:
synthetic wrote:
dfru wrote:
Otherwise my 10 mile bike TT PR is on my steel tubed 14 speed nishiki with Scott DH bars, aerodisc fabric wheel cover, 19mm tires pumped to 125 psi and I can never duplicate those conditions from 1989 again!!!


you can have a classic bike PR and modern bike PR. lionel is comparing to a different gear era PR.


I'll give you this - your ability to ride a dead horse completely into the ground is incredible...

True to his word, I assume this dead horse is the same he rode as a child...

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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hadukla wrote:
dfru wrote:
synthetic wrote:
dfru wrote:
Otherwise my 10 mile bike TT PR is on my steel tubed 14 speed nishiki with Scott DH bars, aerodisc fabric wheel cover, 19mm tires pumped to 125 psi and I can never duplicate those conditions from 1989 again!!!


you can have a classic bike PR and modern bike PR. lionel is comparing to a different gear era PR.


I'll give you this - your ability to ride a dead horse completely into the ground is incredible...


True to his word, I assume this dead horse is the same he rode as a child...

Yeah, this poor horse is a long goner...

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [ntl_tri] [ In reply to ]
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ntl_tri wrote:
synthetic wrote:

yes i have times for my road bike vs tri bike efforts. it matters to factor in this when the equipment change is drastic in reducing times. 40s between two bikes on a 40km TT isnt much. 4 minutes is.

I used to be part of an running NGB and saw across the board the dramatic time improvements of these shoes. jack daniels tables getting screwed up. For instance that recent half WR set makes the person capable of a sub 40s 400m....


Right, ok...you keep talking about treating PR like a scientific experiment, but the question you're asking is "How fast can I do this distance under these conditions with this equipment?" which means the only variable you can change is yourself, through training. Fine if you want to think about it that way.

But that's not how 99% percent of the world thinks of PR's...we're all asking the question "How fast can I do this distance, period?" and to answer that question we can change all sorts of variables...equipment, clothing, nutrition, time of day, weather, ourselves through training, etc.

So in most peoples' minds, you don't have two different 40km PR's...you have two different times, one where you chose equipment better suited to what you were trying to do (go fast). The faster time is your PR. Congratulations.

You can think about your own PR's however you want, but expecting everyone else to measure their PR's by your obscure, self-imposed rules doesn't make much sense.

I imagine that he must be keeping a long spreadsheet of every race he's done with all the equipment used so that if one thing changes (say, used a more aerodynamic bottle this time!) he can say it was PR because the equipment has changed. It is a sad way to boost one's confidence but hey, anything a person needs to feel better about themselves, go for it, have fun. He just shouldn't expect anyone else to play by his rules.

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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hadukla wrote:
ntl_tri wrote:
synthetic wrote:

yes i have times for my road bike vs tri bike efforts. it matters to factor in this when the equipment change is drastic in reducing times. 40s between two bikes on a 40km TT isnt much. 4 minutes is.

I used to be part of an running NGB and saw across the board the dramatic time improvements of these shoes. jack daniels tables getting screwed up. For instance that recent half WR set makes the person capable of a sub 40s 400m....


Right, ok...you keep talking about treating PR like a scientific experiment, but the question you're asking is "How fast can I do this distance under these conditions with this equipment?" which means the only variable you can change is yourself, through training. Fine if you want to think about it that way.

But that's not how 99% percent of the world thinks of PR's...we're all asking the question "How fast can I do this distance, period?" and to answer that question we can change all sorts of variables...equipment, clothing, nutrition, time of day, weather, ourselves through training, etc.

So in most peoples' minds, you don't have two different 40km PR's...you have two different times, one where you chose equipment better suited to what you were trying to do (go fast). The faster time is your PR. Congratulations.

You can think about your own PR's however you want, but expecting everyone else to measure their PR's by your obscure, self-imposed rules doesn't make much sense.


I imagine that he must be keeping a long spreadsheet of every race he's done with all the equipment used so that if one thing changes (say, used a more aerodynamic bottle this time!) he can say it was PR because the equipment has changed. It is a sad way to boost one's confidence but hey, anything a person needs to feel better about themselves, go for it, have fun. He just shouldn't expect anyone else to play by his rules.

scenerio. you tell me recently run 18min 5k (but done in bouncy shoes), at same race as me. I say lets get together for tempo run on some softer sand trails (where the shoes are more useless). For some reason you cannot keep up with me... this illusion of improved performance does not demonstrate your human potential has improved. likely will lead to burn out when you cannot rely on your crutch of equipment anymore.
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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Like it or not, equipment is part of the sport. If Lionel got a new pair of shoes and they helped him run a bit faster, great. The shoes didn't do that for him, they were simply part of the equation that let him put his best effort forward on that day.

We all know you're not *actually* all about naked human potential, because you run in shoes, you ride a modern bike, you wear a wetsuit, etc. You just don't like "new evil shoes".

Does better equipment "help" yield better results / faster times? Of course, otherwise people wouldn't buy the stuff. But it "helps" in the sense of allowing more of our potential to translate into actual performance, by reducing limiting factors.
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [dfru] [ In reply to ]
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Could be Saucony or don't take the money and test with the Nike and Adidas products and take the chance that the improved performances makes up for it with prize money and incentives from other sponsors and know you are on the fastest product for you. It seems like the Nike vaporfly/alphafly, Adios Pro and the Endorphin Pro are the way to go for the fastest shoes - so it's going to be interesting to see what he does!


Brent,

Apologies - I did not check the whole of this thread over to see if this had been posted up yet.

Clearly Nike was first out .of the gate with the 4% shoes but then others started to catch up and this can have implications for sponsorship.

Here's the recent story on Canadian Marathon Record Holder Malindi Elmore and how she arrived at a sponsorship deal with Saucony - https://www.outsideonline.com/...st-vaporflys-saucony via testing in a physiology lab head to head, a some 4%'s and Endorphin Pros

For Elmore the Endorphin Pros tested about the same as the 4%, therefore it was easy to make a decision to take a sponsorship deal from Saucony. My guess is there was no offer on the table from Nike!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Lionel new video- AlphaFlys [SDJ] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure I agree that the shoe won’t make the difference. If you’ve been following the results and the studies the best Nikes are worth a significant amount atm...
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