Yea Erin said no more Sketchers but no other information. Mentioned too that it's an old kit. I wonder if he will try for a new shoe contract.

His 5k PR was in Sketchers Speed Elites.

If you look at the chat Erin mentions that the Skechers Sponsorship has ended. Since he was wearing his tri kit with Skechers all over it, I'll guess that he's just trying shoes out and is on the open market. So if you know any shoe company that wants to sponsor him, now is their chance!

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

15:08 5k off the bike. I bet he could have beaten Goodman if he wore those at Daytona.
Good to see he's focusing on swim a lot. So transparent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b11tj7RAEc0

His 5k PR was many years ago in college. You must be speaking of his mechanical doping assisted PR

My advice to Lionel is to forego a running shoe contract and find your perfect shoe. You will get knocks on the door but weigh it out. Is the contract more important than winning Kona? I’m not suggesting a running shoe is going to be the difference buy I am suggesting being able to choose is liberating and that might just be better at this stage of the career.

---

Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

My advice to Lionel is to forego a running shoe contract and find your perfect shoe. You will get knocks on the door but weigh it out. Is the contract more important than winning Kona? I’m not suggesting a running shoe is going to be the difference buy I am suggesting being able to choose is liberating and that might just be better at this stage of the career.

---

this.

---

Toro Performance

Ugh we all know how you feel about this... Give it up

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Oh for fuck's sake. Yes yes, you "hate" Alphas. Start the GoFundMe already and get yourself a pair. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh.

No. To set my 5k PR, I ran the same exact shoes as before from 5 years ago with holes in the toe box. Not saying he should go that far, but for it to be a PR - must be besting your effort with near exact same conditions and gear.

for it to be a PR he needs to run the same distance in the fastest time he ever has

what a ridiculous opinion to have to suggest using the exact same shoes. does every advancement in track surfaces or shoes or bikes or swim suits or training knowledge invalidate every record?

Forget the alphaflys, his PR's were set on a SYNTHETIC TRACK, and not on a perfect cinder surface the way Bannister intended!

+1

Even if your perfect shoe is only 1% better, it's preferable to take the 1% than the sponsor $$$$.

Ditto with aero helmets.

---

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

My advice to Lionel is to forego a running shoe contract and find your perfect shoe. You will get knocks on the door but weigh it out. Is the contract more important than winning Kona? I’m not suggesting a running shoe is going to be the difference buy I am suggesting being able to choose is liberating and that might just be better at this stage of the career.


When I worked with Lionel and his Team on the One Hour Record ride, I got a bit of a peak under the hood at how he operates now, with respect to his relationships with sponsors. It's evolved over time, and he's now in a very different place than he was a few years ago. Last year with limited to no race-opportunities and exposure opportunities for athlete's sponsors, it was ALL ABOUT the other things you were doing - the Creative Content, you were creating, the Social media Posts - in this area, Lionel has REALLY made a name for himself, and mastered this idea of adding huge value for his sponsors AWAY from the Race Course and the podium!

He doesn't have to win another big races for the rest of his career - he's got this all figured out. He will keep striving and battling for those big wins because he's a warrior, but how his does in a certain race, now, is almost irrelevant.

So I agree with the premise here, that on shoes - he can use what he likes or is "better/faster"? The amount of $$ that he would get from a Shoe Sponsorship these days would possibly be quite minimal. Many of the Shoe Brands cut back on Sponsorship last year and going into 2021. Shoe Sales in the Performance Run category were actually DOWN in 2020 (the numbers were just in last this week).

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I think you have a very promising future ahead of you if you decide to become a UCI official.

---

___________________________________
MS: Exercise Science
Your speed matters a lot, sometimes you need to be very fast, where sometimes you need to breakdown your speed.

Who else besides Hoka (& Sketchers) is giving money to North American triathletes? Is there such a difference between all of the carbon shoes at the pace long course athletes run off the bike? Or for a person with the running inefficiencies of Sanders? Take the Hoka money and pay the bills. Plus, Frodeno is running Hokas, so must copy him. Even with his connection through Jorgensen's husband, Nike does not sponsor triathletes.

Man, I just got new running shoes. Sad I'll never be able to set another PR. :(

In the video he looked pretty good running! While his stride isn't the prettiest - he's worked on it for sure and it seems to be pretty efficient for running off the bike for sure.

Could be Saucony or don't take the money and test with the Nike and Adidas products and take the chance that the improved performances makes up for it with prize money and incentives from other sponsors and know you are on the fastest product for you. It seems like the Nike vaporfly/alphafly, Adios Pro and the Endorphin Pro are the way to go for the fastest shoes - so it's going to be interesting to see what he does!

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

1) is the mile world record 3:24 or 3:43? i mention both these times, since they are the fastest times for that distance.



2) you can get similar shoes still today of what was 20 years ago. and yes, FINA invalidated many swim records a few years back. too bad world athletics sold out.

This is wrong. Vincent Luis is sponsored by Nike. Granted he is World Champion, but at least one triathlete is sponsored by Nike. Believed to be worth several thousand euros per year.

The mile world record is 4:28 set in 1855. Any shoe in the last 150 years is mechanical doping compared to the OG's. You can't just pick and choose what generation of shoes isn't mechanical doping.

You are such a tool

I know that you are trolling to get a reaction, but I'll play

Why stop with the shoes - so many things changed in 5 years. Hell, you are now 5 years older! So I say that to really break PR you must go into a rejuvenation machine to be 5 years younger, then get into a time-machine and beat yourself on the same day. Anything less than that is doping!

I won't ever come near your lawn, old man. :-)

---

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

1) lionel did his race on a godamn track which is what I assume is what his original PR was from. to bring up the severely downhill mile is so dumb

2) and what shoes do you run in? if you say anything but barefoot you have tarnished running races and need to set all your PRs without the assistance of modern technology that is the running shoe. if youre going to be elitist about a running shoe you need to at least fully commit to your bit.

im also confident the mile has been raced much longer before the year 2001 (hot take, I know) so how do current non alphafly shoes compare to shoes from the 80s? or 60s? or the 40s? answer: very different.

as for the swim records, yes the invalidated the super suits but swimsuit technology in the past 10 years is still far superior from the swim technology in the 50s. should those also be invalidated?

1) the mechanically doping shoes are giving similar time improvements of those people who run downhill races. That is why I brought it up.

2) saucony a5


Look. we know LS can get similar shoes to what he ran during his XC PR days. so the true test of improvement, would be for him to try again with similar shoes to what he used ... likely race flats which are still made to this day. But I guess that wont sell --> improving with just training better. need some gimmick.

1) that downhill mile difference is a 9% time improvement. not similar to the 4-5% of the carbon shoes. Next.

2) nice modern shoe you got there. seems a bit different than shoes of the 20th century to me

this past fall he ran faster over 5k than he ever has prior under legal conditions. thats it. thats his PR.

Vincent Luis is sponsored by Nike France. Not Nike International or Nike US. The Nike US or International is the only contract from Nike worth a shit.

For that, and with all due respect to the sport we all love. Nike does not give a shit about triathlon.

I hope the Ironman World Champion didn't put that Nike symbol on her jersey for free.

Also, Sketchers needs to give up on the running game. No one will ever take them seriously after the "shape ups" scandal. Lionel just proved Sketchers suck with his latest video.

Same deal for Anne and the Canadian triathletes. They are sponsored by the Nike Europe or whatever. Nike US (the one that really matters) doesn’t give a shit about triathlon. Ask Bignell or anyone that works in their marketing department. They don’t give a shit about triathlon.

Nike sponsors Vincent luis and Anne Haug

---

Team Zoot 2023

Lionel is Canadian. Would that fall under Nike U.S.?

I am sure Nike U.S. doesn't care much about triathlon. Nike is one of the richest corporations in America who sponsor top athletes like LeBron James and dozens of other professional athletes with million dollar contracts. A triathlete is a drop in a bucket to them. But a 50k-100k contract to a triathlete is the jackpot. If Nike does it's research, which they love to do, they would find triathletes at the top of the list of affluent athletes willing to spend $250 for a shoe that only functions for 100 miles. Which is a rip off too me......unless someone like Lionel tells me otherwise...... wink wink to Nike. I would bet my Gamestop stock that more people would buy Nikes because of Lionel than because of Gwen.

Tell Mario Mola, apparently he's not aware of this.

---

Sr. Salitre

Way ahead of ya´ gentleman ;-)

---

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

I'd never make it as a pro triathlete... ALL of my equipment choices would be what's best for me, not what's best for my sponsors.

E

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Totally agree!
It’s also an Olympic year twice. Olympic years are always bad years to look for a new contract with one of the majors. Molly Siedel was on a starter contract with Saucony and she was fortunate to land a large contract with Puma (new money to running) but as you know that’s rare.

Lionel is right up there with Triathlon Taren in terms of YouTub subscribers and therefore revenue. That has to change the metrics and give him some piece of mind. You can also see the switch in his videos. He’s bought into the data which clearly shows him, tell us everything flat out, worts and all. His latest rant about swimming has to garner love from most triathletes. Most hate swimming right? Given the response here on the Alpha Fly maybe an added avenue for him is to talk running shoes from his perspective. There are revenue streams from retailers in running shoes if the demand shows it. He’s got to have a love-hate relationship with running shoes too. I think that sells right now and it’s pure.

---

Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

Who's Gwen?

This post is true. Nike USA is the only real one you want to be sponsored by. These other athletes are making very very little money being with Nike Europe etc.. But sometimes that does not matter just having the swoosh on your chest is so powerful in not only the product but also getting other sponsors. With that being said Nike does not give two flips about triathlon. Even having big connections at Nike like noted above (Gwen's Husband who manages Lionel.) Will be interesting to see how this shoe thing unfolds. I will say one thing about brands and Lionel. He is the most Loyal athlete I have seen i this history of this sport and I have worked with a few.

Cam Wurf is definitely sponsored by Nike. He's even in the training team with Kipchoge I think.

Nike is organized under five regions currently: North America, EMEA, Greater China, Asia Pacifc & Latin America, and Global Division.

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

he is not sponsored. he has friends in high places.

saucony a5 is a real minimal shoe, not modern at all , race flat.

anyways. i guess my curiosity will never be answered. is lionel a better runner from his XC days? i would like to see talbot get him to put in attempt again on track using race flats.

This post is true. Nike USA is the only real one you want to be sponsored by. These other athletes are making very very little money being with Nike Europe etc.. But sometimes that does not matter just having the swoosh on your chest is so powerful in not only the product but also getting other sponsors. With that being said Nike does not give two flips about triathlon


100%

These Nike "deals" that people see via a logo, are most likely regional/local Nike partnerships with the regional offices and representatives in that area or country. They may not amount to much. Product, some small $$, typically performance or media exposure bonus specific

Nike has not really cared Corporately about Triathlon for a long time.

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

What's the actual benefit of getting back in flats for Lionel. Risking injury and such. The benefits of the carbon shoe seem to go beyond performance - injury prevention and such. You are literally the only person on this board that has this curiosity and attempts to ruin every running post with this stuff.

I'd love to know what your 1:12 buddy from the Real Triathlon #3 ran his 1:12 in...

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

He’s bought into the data which clearly shows him, tell us everything flat out, worts and all.


That's nothing new, really. He's always been about that - All info, all the time.

He was like this years ago when I would do interviews with him after races or at other events. When I would ask him a question, he would never hold back! That IS the attraction!

My sense is that now this is being brought more to the fore, with the always excellent videography work of Talbot Cox. This is Lionel's EDGE. The genuineness!

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Gotta give credit where credit is due - I do think a large amount of LS's popularity stems directly from your (talbot's) great camera work and videography. It really draws you in and is presented in storylike form that's very accessible to both new and old fans.

Great work, for not only LS but all the athletes you work with!

Stefan Daniel is a Canadian triathlete and sponsored by Nike. I tried to put you two together a year ago as his story is amazing. Never heard back from you. You should check him out. I am quite sure there would be mutual synergies. He has a very bright long term future in the sport.

I just want to make clear what a PR is. I don't remember my buddies shoes that day, I think it was the nike fly shoes without plate but still had the special foam. Although now he is using the carbon ones. I think it's degrading his performance as it's a crutch. Recently we did interval workout on trails where the shoes don't work, and he wore something else. I was able to keep up with him for first few.

See, this is where you lose your argument - a PR is a person's best time for a distance. And your details are sketchy - the Nike Zoom fly have a plate but not the foam - the foam being the part that makes the most difference it seems. I'm sure your friend appreciates your disqualifying all of his hard work as irrelevant. And they aren't making so much difference that all of a sudden you can keep up on intervals. Come on...

Mostly, just let it die. Carbon shoes are here to stay - and we are ALL aware of your feelings on them.

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

This sounds like math teachers telling students they can't use calculators because they won't always have a calculator in real life. It's not a crutch if it'll always be available and is available to everyone.

---

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

FWIW I love the Gorun 7+. I'm able to get 600 miles out of them which was awesome. The cushion feels nice and they didn't give me blisters.

Skechers has a huge brand image problem. Even searching for performance run shoes on their site is near impossible. They were also really popular when I was 10 years old and have always had a kid brand image in my head.

---

IG - @ryanppax
http://www.geluminati.com
Use code ST5 for $5 off your order

Dude, just to be clear - you don’t get to make up new definitions for things just because you don’t like new shoes. That’s not how this works. That’s not how any of this works.

---

___________________________________
MS: Exercise Science
Your speed matters a lot, sometimes you need to be very fast, where sometimes you need to breakdown your speed.

It's not a new definition. It's science! " The ability to replicate same observation under same conditions"

Skechers has a huge brand image problem. Even searching for performance run shoes on their site is near impossible. They were also really popular when I was 10 years old and have always had a kid brand image in my head.


Various brands from outside the Performance Running market have tried to come into it over the years, and they have NEVER been successful - Fila, KSwiss quickly come to mind. The Performance Running Market is ruled by Nike, Brooks, NB, Asics, adidas and Saucony - those are like the big-6, there is then a sharp drop-off with some up-and-comers - Hoka (doing REALLY well), and ON. I would put Skechers MAYBE in this group.

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I feel yah. If I want to see what Skechers running shoes are I look at Running Warehouse.

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Definitely agree with this. I decided to give the Gorun 7+ a go when I was looking for new cushioned shoes last year and saw a pro athletes review on them (Cody Beals). Figured I may as well try them, I had been experimenting after my Hokas gave me blisters.

But they are so tough to find on the website... the only reason I actually found them was because I knew what they looked like from Cody's IG story, and just matched up the photos. They have way too many shoes on there. I ended up actually quite liking them and still have them in my rotation. Really light but comfy cushioning.

That's not the definition of PR/PB lol

Personal Best - Oxford Languages - the best time or score ever achieved by an athlete in a particular event.

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

so then the mile world record is 3:24.

Steve, I think you forgot a notable brand in your list...

Please add Adidas to your list! Big 6 ;)

Please add Adidas to your list! Big 6 ;)


Good Grief - Yes! Brain-fart on my part.

Thank you!

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

The fastest mile run is 3:24. And if that person wants to take that as their PR that's on them. But it's not the world record.

The marathon world record is 2:01:39 (I believe). The fastest time is 1:59:40 run for the distance(again, off the top of my head).

World records are set to certain rules. PRs are what the athlete believes they are. It would be interesting to know what Eliud considers his marathon PR to be.

For instance - I have run the run leg for our local relay race Ski to Sea. It's 7.9 miles downhill. Like...2000 ft elevation loss. Strava has me going thru 10k in 32:33. My 10k PB is, in my estimation, 36:01, but that's using logic and such.

Regardless of your personal opinion, the shoes are legal and the records are legit.

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

I don’t know why you all bother. It’s clear he doesn’t want to have a real conversation about it. His mind is made up, based on what the facts he think are right are. It comes back to the old, if everyone else disagrees with you, maybe you should look at your opinion and reevaluate.

When you start trying to make up your own definition of words, you’ve missed the mark somewhere along the line. You can make up what a PR means and then tell everyone else what the rules are for a PR, based on your definition that isn’t what the actual definition is. It’s asinine and moronic.

back in HS we'd run all kinds of shitty 5k xc courses. As a freshman I ran a 14:38 at JH Rose's 5k meet .

Next day my gym teacher who was a baseball coach so wasn't a "runner":"Brooks you crushed it"....
Me- "yeah Coach Carter I ran a 14:38 for about 2.6mi, that course won't close to a 5k".
Gym teacher- "but that counts"
Me- "no coach, no it doesnt"



Thank god i ran before a time where all the stats are recorded on milesplit or other online run profiles.....I'd feel embarrassed if that was my 5k "pr" on my profile.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Totally - even my strava profile shows PRs for 5k 16:55 and 10k 36:01, but estimated best efforts at 15:41 and 32:33. I want to figure out how to take those estimations out haha.

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Canada is not Europe. FYI. Canada is in Nike's North America region. Managed as part of the North American territories within the North American region.

That being said, I agree that Nike doesn't really care about triathlon anymore but there is a bust of Dave Scott on the campus. Sure there is some small country by country triathlon sponsorships but the money they spend on them is pennies compared to the spend on pure running.

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Good thing that stock will end up in the tank because this is not true. Gwen has a stronger following outside of triathlon because of the Olympic medal and parenthood. Lionel is huge in triathlon, which is really, really small.

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

As of now Lionel has like 3x YouTube followers than Gwen fwiw

Ah, I was looking towards IG & twitter (is Lionel even on twitter?) where both have the same amount of followers but Gwen's following is more diverse

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

THANK YOU. I turned off this guy's posts mostly for his misogynist comments but the whole war on vaporflys he and pyro wolf have is old. its like the 2% of climate scientists who still want to blame nature for rising temperatures.

Beyond that... I wish I could have looked into the future and retorted back to my teacher that I would be staring at a giant calculator like MS Excel for 40 hours a week. I wonder what kids these days have to deal with in this regard

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Mostly we just want them to have some semblance of number sense. ;)

I saw LSs video and I remember him not saying that was a PR on 5k.
He said it is a PR on 5k DIRECTLY AFTER A HARD BIKE.

So all of the discussions here on what is exactly a 5k PR seem not applicable for what he actually did.

Imagine going down the 'its not a PR' line with bike tech...

---

http://www.tri-monkey.co.uk

I assume you're riding a Raleigh Scott Tinley Technium Tri-Lite on the bike .. otherwise all your times are invalid for aerodynamic/weight doping.

It's a great question.

I got to ask him about this, and it turns out that he achieved his PR the first time he ever ran 26.2 miles. It was during training. He's run many marathons much faster than that first time, but he's never been able to replicate the precise conditions of that long ago training run so the PR stands.

Hmm don't know the numbers, but I would argue that if there is a "big 5", like you claim, Adidas should be there in the mix.

I could have sworn Lionel was on twitter, but it appears he pulled that down. But here you go.

Gwen
Twitter- 44,035
Instagram- 190,847
YouTube- 48.5k
Facebook- 96k

Lionel
Twitter-NA
Instagram- 190,569
Youtube- 112k
Facebook- 44k

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I run in Skechers Razors, which is what Lionel was wearing when he was sponsored by them. At 6.4oz with solid cushioning they are an excellent light long distance shoe. I hope they keep producing them as they stack up with anything imo. I think they're very much focused on the casual shoe market rather than performance shoes. I'd love to see them increase their performance line and grab a few top tier triathletes to sponsor. It would bring a lot of additional exposure to their brand. Sanders and Beal have been great brand ambassadors for Skechers.

The Skechers Performance line is pretty wide.

https://www.runningwarehouse.com/catpage-MRSSKECHERS.html

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Hahaha - yeah, I'm just a 2:08 guy...

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Canada is not Europe. FYI. Canada is in Nike's North America region. Managed as part of the North American territories within the North American region.


Nike Canada - to the best of my knowledge operates as a completely separate and on their own business entity! If a Canadian athlete (Triathlete) is sponsored by Nike Canada, it's typically one of those substantially smaller regional deals, with not a great deal of $$ involved. Of course there are always exceptions . . for exceptional athletes! Simon Whitfield is an example, of an athlete who had a formal relationship with Nike Canada, that while I have no idea of specifics, was probably a good deal for him!

there is a bust of Dave Scott on the campus

I've been to the Nike Campus and had a personal tour of the place by a longtime Nike Employee, who is a good friend and also been involved in triathlon since the early days, and I don't recall seeing a Dave Scott bust anywhere. Not saying, there is not one - perhaps it was installed later (that tour was about 10 years ago). However it would seem odd, because, Dave when he was at his best, was never sponsored by Nike - I recall Brooks and Saucony, and more recently as a Coach there was a relationship with Hoka.

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Good thing that stock will end up in the tank because this is not true. Gwen has a stronger following outside of triathlon because of the Olympic medal and parenthood. Lionel is huge in triathlon, which is really, really small.


EVERYTHING has changed with marketing these days but in the older more traditional times here's a great example of the impact of the Olympic Games vs success at IRONMAN.

Within the space of a year, Canada was fortunate to have an IRONMAN World Champion - Peter Reid - and an Olympic Games Gold Medalist and Champion - Simon Whitfield.

Both men are good friends of mine. Nothing against Peter and to take nothing away from his significant achievements and IM World Championship wins, but those wins garnered only a small amount of press in Canada - a small news-wire story tucked in the back of the sports section of the newspaper. When Simon one the Gold Medal in Sydney - it was the lead story on nightly TV News casts and Sports Casts that day, and was Front Page news with a picture in many newspapers across the country the following day! The day after that I was a guest on the CBC National Breakfast Television Morning show, being asked about the significance of Simon's win?

It's a whole different level of coverage and recognition. Back then an IRONMAN win was big WITHIN the sport of triathlon. An Olympic win was big inside and OUTSIDE the world of triathlon. I recall walking our dog at the time in a park in Vancouver, and a bunch of people standing around as Dog Owners do while there Dogs run around and talk about the weather, and the news. I made no mention of my involvement in the sport of triathlon, but these people were spontaneously talking about Simon's Gold Medal win in Sydney, and talking about Simon in a tone like they were talking about their own son! That's the power of the Olympic Games!

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Btw, I was wrong, I went back in my pics and it was Mark Allen, not Dave Scott. Either way, I don't recall him having a sponsorship either but I wasn't around in that era so someone else might confirm. There are a ton of those busts so its easy to miss but it looks like it has been around for a while. I have only worked there for 2 years so could be wrong on how long its been there.

Nike Canada has a legal entity as does operations in every single country, but the way the company operates its businesses, as strobro helpfully pointed out, is by region (NA/EMEA/GC/APLA). Only kind of oddity is that "North America" only contains US & Canada, while Mexico falls into APLA, which is how many businesses run...even if it annoys my geographic mindset!

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

^ this
And the Max road 4+ is a great daily trainer. Has almost the pop of the Nike carbon shoes.
But I also agree they have serious branding issue and the website is total shit

Just some random notes from this thread:

Triathlon Taren
Instagram 62,000
YouTube 130,000
Must be something in the Canadian water!

Skechers - No brand issues. Their total volume dwarfs everyone but Nike and adidas. They play in performance because they can not because they need it. Their athlete of choice right now is King Ches. He’s racing this weekend in Texas and it should be fun to watch. I should say that’s their performance athlete right now. When they run a Super Bowl ad with Joe Montana they will do in a month what most will do in a year.

---

Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

This is pedantic. But Nike Canada is a part of a Nike North America. Just like Nike UK, Nike France, Nike Germany, are all managed as a part of Nike Europe, Middle East, Africa (EMEA).

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Surprised that this is news or confusing to anyone. Most huge companies operate this way.

Global HQ -> Regional HQ -> Country HQ

This thread of defining a pb/pr is too funny. Seriously, this could easily be a Seinfeld episode. If only i could recreate my 16 year old self so i can have another shot at my 5k pb....

FWIW, I’ve run in Skechers performance shoes since 2016 after a lifetime of ASICS and i have no reasons to switch. They provide a great product line to meet anything i could be looking for.... although i have not tried the carbon shoes, i figure I’ve outrun most everything they offer with only the Forza (pre hype burst foam) on the do not buy again buy list... ya, the website is for sure bit wonky but a small frustration for something as important as a shoe to support iron distance training...

.
.
What cracks me up the most about this thread is the fact that, while the worlds triathlon media has turned its attention to the SUB7/SUB8 Challenge, Slowtwitch is more concerned about Lionel's freakin' shoes....Just bloody classic stuff! Hahaha!
.
.

But really, the sub 7 and 8 wont matter right? Because, ya know, it’ll be mechanically assisted - you’re right, this thread has been one of my favourite! LMBO..... so much so that it caused me to make my first ever slowtwitch post... bahahahahha

Unless the shoe is banned or, the bike is banned or, the swimsuit is banned... its a PR / Record. End of story.

Otherwise my 10 mile bike TT PR is on my steel tubed 14 speed nishiki with Scott DH bars, aerodisc fabric wheel cover, 19mm tires pumped to 125 psi and I can never duplicate those conditions from 1989 again!!!

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

or my Vitus on Conti tubulars, 170psi, j-disk, also from about 1989 with a forward seatpost. (I did actually beat that PR in 2019 on the same 15 mile course, 25.0mph). It took 30 years of technology for me to do it. Actually, being more aero was the key.

you can have a classic bike PR and modern bike PR. lionel is comparing to a different gear era PR.

Omg

Do you have a different PR for every pair of shoes you have ever raced in; different PRs for each bike (including every time you choose a new brand of tires); different PR for each pool you race in?

never heard of that before. seems absurd.

I'll give you this - your ability to ride a dead horse completely into the ground is incredible...

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

The only caveat I’ll say to this is a few things.

1st if it’s an legal equipment you use it. No questions asked.

However I also note why it’s suddenly an PR. Like I know the “advantage” it gives my athletes vs regular equipment. So it would be idiotic not to use said equipment in race situations. So I’m not saying we have to go all eddy mercx equipment and no shoes like we are caveman, I’m saying I understand that when you use legal equipment that is SO MUCH better when you use it, it’s an PR but also with an mental note for me (just so I know how/why it’s a good performance).

Again if it’s legal go wear it, and it’s legal allowed to go in record books. I just take note of when for example if my athletes wear the shoes and when they don’t. I know if they set an PR w the equipment that PR now is going to have to take extra special effort/aid to get it again etc. But again it’s legal so do it and I’m not going to call you “equipment doping” on that soap box.

For same reason I don’t compare a 2020 NFL qb who throws for 5k yards a year to an 1978 all pro qb who threw for 50% less attempts and yards. It’s an entirely different sport essentially. we are in a pass happy nfl now where 40 years ago it was still a very much run dominant league.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Great point. But you also aren't saying every Tom Brady touchdown is a cheater touchdown because the sport has evolved...EVERY TIME HE THROWS ONE...haha

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

yes i have times for my road bike vs tri bike efforts. it matters to factor in this when the equipment change is drastic in reducing times. 40s between two bikes on a 40km TT isnt much. 4 minutes is.

I used to be part of an running NGB and saw across the board the dramatic time improvements of these shoes. jack daniels tables getting screwed up. For instance that recent half WR set makes the person capable of a sub 40s 400m....

Uh...no it doesn't.

It makes the calculation of estimating times wrong. It doesn't make them capable of sub 40. Science.

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

lolol 😂

---

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney

If using new running shoes is cheating then fuck it just get on the gear and go for it in old shoes. The rest of us are cheating already...

I am not fast like you competing for prize purse money. I am just in competition against what my "personal" body can do "best".

Maybe he could have beaten Goodwin if he's swam faster.

Right, ok...you keep talking about treating PR like a scientific experiment, but the question you're asking is "How fast can I do this distance under these conditions with this equipment?" which means the only variable you can change is yourself, through training. Fine if you want to think about it that way.

But that's not how 99% percent of the world thinks of PR's...we're all asking the question "How fast can I do this distance, period?" and to answer that question we can change all sorts of variables...equipment, clothing, nutrition, time of day, weather, ourselves through training, etc.

So in most peoples' minds, you don't have two different 40km PR's...you have two different times, one where you chose equipment better suited to what you were trying to do (go fast). The faster time is your PR. Congratulations.

You can think about your own PR's however you want, but expecting everyone else to measure their PR's by your obscure, self-imposed rules doesn't make much sense.

I can respect this, and in a sense feel the same. I know that when I wear my vaporflys I'm going to run a bit faster than when I'm wearing regular trainers, just as I know when I have a really fast bike split because there was a tailwind the whole time that I haven't suddenly become a much faster biker than I was when I was riding into the wind.

I think that in general people are wacky about and over-invested in PRs (maybe encouraged by strava, etc), and I think that in triathlon the idea of doing something like going to Augusta to get a "swim PR" is stupid.

But the idea that one can't have a PR with new equipment, or that what is now "standard" equipment, is likewise a bit much.

but its not standard. not every athlete is required to shell out $200+ for shoes.

Well... I sort of indicated that with quotation marks, but they're commercially available and one of the many pieces of equipment that some will have. I've raced swimming in a shitty wetsuit and riding an non-aero roadbike while others were rocking wetsuits with nice, flexible shoulders and riding aero bikes with disc wheels.

But more importantly... you're talking about a PR. Why does what others are wearing matter to what one person wears when running a PR? Or, what does the question standard equipment across competition between different people matter when determining one individual's PR? If someone starts running today, wears nothing but alphaflys, do they have a PR?

(Again, I'm somewhat with you in the sense that if one is interested purely in what they've achieved through conditioning, one should realize that an equipment advantage didn't just make one more fit.)

Everybody is missing the BIGGEST point here. When you watch this video, and after watching all Lionel's youtube videos and meeting him in person, I have a strong inclination based off his body language what he was thinking post-5k run. Based off his expression he was like, "Holy shit I just ran what of my fastest 5k's ever and it didn't even feel that hard. Why the hell didn't I race in the Nike Vaporfly's before!"

Yup, I said it before, not running in AF's at Daytona prob cost him 25k in prize money.

VERY good point - Iden has been in some form of this shoe for a couple years now. It was like, oh...level playing field...game on!

It would be interesting if Talbot or David chimed in with how many runs Lionel had in the shoes before the 5k, as they looked brand new.

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

"Race day comes, and I miss my mile swim goal time by a mere 4 seconds! Argh… Now I have to wait another year for this proper distance mile swim race (Sharkfest – San Diego). If somehow I knew to kill myself more on the final 100yd in. Checking my watch at that point, the cost would have been more than 4 seconds, since you stop the swim stroke to look. Thankfully, I have found the solution: The marlin audio feed pacing device ( https://platysens.com/marlin/ ). Because it is bone conduction audio, it should be legal for most races (but check the rules anyways) as opposed to an in-ear device."





This a cut and past off of your website..... Obviously you are not opposed to new tech to set a PR in sport. Here is some crazy, bone-conduction, timing device that you are going to use so you don't have to check your watch while swimming and lose time. How is this different for you? Was this device available and used by you when you set your current PR? Anyways. It just seemed odd for a guy who puts himself out as such a technical Luddite to have this nice write up of this new product.

---

----------------------------
Jason
None of the secrets of success will work unless you do.

I questioned him about this before - he said he lost it so it doesn't count against him or some sort of crap. Apparently somehow not having it to use anymore makes it irrelevant or something.

I don't know what to make of it...lol

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

scroll up to my 40s vs 4min comment. 4s doesnt make much difference, nor does this device some how propel me forward with less effort.

Look at all the races records are being set when run in these shoes. Why are these athletes still standing? Before you would see them crumble to their knees from the effort. Even in the recent hoka rocket 2 100k attempt, the 2nd place guy kept running way past the finish line.

Looks like you haven't followed, Lionel doesn't copy what Jan is doing anymore, now he copies everything Gustav Iden is doing :-)

True to his word, I assume this dead horse is the same he rode as a child...

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Yeah, this poor horse is a long goner...

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

I imagine that he must be keeping a long spreadsheet of every race he's done with all the equipment used so that if one thing changes (say, used a more aerodynamic bottle this time!) he can say it was PR because the equipment has changed. It is a sad way to boost one's confidence but hey, anything a person needs to feel better about themselves, go for it, have fun. He just shouldn't expect anyone else to play by his rules.

---

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

scenerio. you tell me recently run 18min 5k (but done in bouncy shoes), at same race as me. I say lets get together for tempo run on some softer sand trails (where the shoes are more useless). For some reason you cannot keep up with me... this illusion of improved performance does not demonstrate your human potential has improved. likely will lead to burn out when you cannot rely on your crutch of equipment anymore.

Like it or not, equipment is part of the sport. If Lionel got a new pair of shoes and they helped him run a bit faster, great. The shoes didn't do that for him, they were simply part of the equation that let him put his best effort forward on that day.

We all know you're not *actually* all about naked human potential, because you run in shoes, you ride a modern bike, you wear a wetsuit, etc. You just don't like "new evil shoes".

Does better equipment "help" yield better results / faster times? Of course, otherwise people wouldn't buy the stuff. But it "helps" in the sense of allowing more of our potential to translate into actual performance, by reducing limiting factors.

Could be Saucony or don't take the money and test with the Nike and Adidas products and take the chance that the improved performances makes up for it with prize money and incentives from other sponsors and know you are on the fastest product for you. It seems like the Nike vaporfly/alphafly, Adios Pro and the Endorphin Pro are the way to go for the fastest shoes - so it's going to be interesting to see what he does!


Brent,

Apologies - I did not check the whole of this thread over to see if this had been posted up yet.

Clearly Nike was first out .of the gate with the 4% shoes but then others started to catch up and this can have implications for sponsorship.

Here's the recent story on Canadian Marathon Record Holder Malindi Elmore and how she arrived at a sponsorship deal with Saucony - https://www.outsideonline.com/...st-vaporflys-saucony via testing in a physiology lab head to head, a some 4%'s and Endorphin Pros

For Elmore the Endorphin Pros tested about the same as the 4%, therefore it was easy to make a decision to take a sponsorship deal from Saucony. My guess is there was no offer on the table from Nike!

---

---

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Not sure I agree that the shoe won’t make the difference. If you’ve been following the results and the studies the best Nikes are worth a significant amount atm...

Hi Steve,

Yes - I actually know Graham and Malindi well - before Graham started coaching Malindi to marathon greatness - I was his first athlete and he somehow got me to Kona qualify haha! I have talked to them about this test - and I think all things being equal Malindi found that the ethos of Saucony was much more aligned with her goals and aspirations and personal beliefs.

No idea about a Nike deal but I don't believe she is worried about it ;)

---

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

I dunno man.. I hardly ever do triathlons, but I can't stop watching Lionel's videos. When I need motivation for running, I watch Lionel's triathlon videos. Sure it's weird, but they're awesome. I could care less if he ever does a competitive triathlon again.. just keep pumping out those videos and I'll support his sponsors.