excellent timing, as I'm looking to make a decision on refueling.

How does EFS stack up to CLIF Shots and CLIF Electrolyte Drink? I've had the apple drink, but that's it. Waiting for some samples to come in but I've been waiting for about 3 weeks, and losing patience.

Thanks for any help.

All,
At First Endurance we have a very powerful Endurance Research Board. These researchers allows us to stay at the forefront of endurance research. Each member is also a highly accomplished athlete. Bob Seebohar completed the Leadville 100 bike AND Run portions this summer. Shawn Dolan completed Ironman Wisconsin..
Below are just a couple articles that offer a review of the research and are pertinent to this string.

Current research review of Carbohydrate metabolism..why you need sugars
by ERB member Bob Seebohar, MS, RD, CSSD, CSCS, Sport Dietitian
http://blog.firstendurance.com/...of-current-research/

Energy Gel Feature Comparison
http://blog.firstendurance.com/...0/energy-gel-review/

Current research review of electrolytes..why you need all 5
By Shawn Dolan, PhD, RD, CSSD: Professor in the Kinesiology Department at California State University, Long Beach.
http://blog.firstendurance.com/...e-electrolyte-story/

Ridehard,
Thanks for the reply. I'll be making the switch to EFS for the 2010 season. (Athens Marathon 2009, Boston marathon 2010, Oceanside 70.3, Triple T, Steelhead 70.3 and IM Lou). Looking forward to the change as I've only ever known Hammer. In regard to nutirition, it's difficult to make the leap to something new but always looking to improve and build upon my knowledge gained over the past six years of IM racing. The information on EFS's site and learning more about Amino Acids really was a big help.
The saying 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' doesn't sit well with me...if it were the case we'd all still be driving a Model T and listening to 8 track tapes...yeah, they work but there's always improvments and a better way for better performance right? Kaizen my ST friends!
Thanks to all that have posted.

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Citius, Altius, Fortius

I switched to EFS and have been very happy. I got tired of all the endurolyte tablets and couldn't get enough CHO in with Heed alone, or enough Na with SE. Perpetuem stayed in my stomach too long. Now I use the EFS drink, and add carbopro to get as much CHO as I want per hour. Based on my last race though I should have added less carbopro. I like the EFS shot for racing. Its especially nice at the waterbottle exchanges. I just dumped the bottle into my aerodrink waterbottle at mile 42 on the bike and presto, chango my water from the race director is ready to go with calories and Na. I still have some recoverite which I'm using up. Now that my race season is done I'm using much less of everything.

Who is using Ultragen? is it better or similar to recoverite?

While we're on the subject. Any experience with their Optygen or PreRace? Prerace has a ton of stimulants so I've been slow to adopt it. The claims for Optygen seem to good to be true and its pricey.

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Brian
“Eat and Drink, spin the legs and you’re going to effin push (today).” A Howe

Trigreek,
My opinion is too biased to give you a worthwhile answer on Optygen or PreRace, so I only hope some others on this forum have experience with these products so they can help you out. I do have one useful piece of information for the Ultragen vs Recoverite.

The Recovery Comparison chart following the first paragraph is quite useful.

Written By Jeff Rocco MD-
http://blog.firstendurance.com/...k-review-comparison/

Thanks for posting. What do you guys recommend for getting more cals into a bottle? Using super-strength EFS seems like the taste might get overwhelming. Do you see any problems with spiking the mix with carbopro?

-Colin

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

EFS liquid shot..that's what it was designed for. Best method is to start with the EFS drinks mixed in your bottles then supplement additional calories with the EFS liquid shot. You can even make up to a 1,600 calorie water bottle by pouring the EFS liquid shot from the refillable jug into a water bottle. We also suggest you dilute as needed/preferred. For an Ironman marathon where digestion is very, very fickle on the run, we suggest you dilute the EFS liquid shot down about 20% and carry a couple flasks with you. Two flasks diluted a bit gives you 600 calories and about 2,200mg electrolytes.

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Robert Kunz / Founder and VP of Science for First Endurance

I have tried the liquid shot and love it.
My concern over the drink mixes is the flavors.....one of the reasons I use sustained energy is I get the unflavored one....
lemon lime, grape - all sound well like I would gag....

do you do sample sizes???

Of the current flavors grape and tangerine are mild, fruit punch and lemon lime are a bit stronger. We are currently testing quite a few upgrades in the EFS drink mix and at the same time testing new flavors. Jordan Rapp, Michael Lovato, Heather Gollnick, Sarah Haskins, Team Astana and Team Columbia, among others, are all putting the new EFS drinks to the test in their training and racing. On this forum Jordan has some good insight.
If you like mild, the new flavors (due out in Jan/Feb) will be very, very mild..almost like an unflavored drink with mild hints of flavor, though we may launch a stronger flavored fruit punch. The new flavors are designed to sit well when its super hot outside and strong flavors are just too over powering.

Though we do not sample, we do offer a 100% performance guarantee. You can test any of our products, through any retailer and if not 100% satisfied (even with the flavor), you get your money back.

Brian Shea at Personal Best Nutrition is also great at helping one customize their nutrition plan. He is well versed in our products in addition to all the others out on the market.

I have used Ultragen, but cannot compare it to Recoverite. Personally, it's one of the better tasting recovery drinks out there. I think that the key with all recovery drinks is to use the drink, and just the drink, in the window following hard workouts. So, for the next 40-60 or so minutes the only calories you take in is the drink. After that, go to your regularly scheduled eating. That way, nothing interferes with the action of the recovery drink. We use it for most sessions that are over 90 minutes with intervals or sessions that are started almost empty like a really early swim or run.

As for Optygen. There was a thread not too long ago about it. The summary is that those who have not used it suspected it was snake oil. Those who have used it (myself and the Missus -Tex included) felt that it worked well. The best evidence that I have is not necessarily the race results, but the fact that we have had more 'on' workouts even when juggling the other life responsibilities (I am a 9-5er for work). I think that the promotion of win an 8 month supply is still going on, so you could try to enter to win.

Pre-race. I have not used a full scoop yet, but have noticed good workouts following its use. It really helps with the concentration.

As a disclaimer, I've been using EFS for 2+ years now. Liquid shot since it came out. Only recently have I been added to one of the 'First Endurance Teams'. So, yeah, there's a little help there, but we still purchase some of the products as well. The Bars are great...like candy.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

I'm happy to buy them to taste, but it would be nice if there was a smaller package for both EFS drink and shot. Even if you can return them it's nice to buy a serving or two at a time, then a big can once you know what you like. Also we need more retailer in the Baltimore area. I order on the internet now, but would shop at the LBS if they stocked EFS products.

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Brian
“Eat and Drink, spin the legs and you’re going to effin push (today).” A Howe

You can buy a small flask of the liquid shot, which is the equivalent of 4 gels.

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Portside Athletics Blog

Using super-strength EFS seems like the taste might get overwhelming.

Have you tried the grape EFS? If you can handle, and need, that many calories, I don't think a super-strength bottle of grape EFS would be overwhelming in terms of flavor. It is a very subtle flavor, can't even really compare it to anything else on the market, good, but subtle. Image if you had a bottle of grape Gatorade that you drink, then without rinsing refilled that bottle with water. That's about the taste of grape EFS. (I hear the tangerine is supposed to be subtle too, but I did not like that flavor at all).

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Portside Athletics Blog

I use Infinit for most "during exercise/race" nutrition but supplement (to break up the monotony of one product) with FE Liquid Shot. I also take Optygen HP and Multi-V during Ironman Build phase...I notice a big difference in recovery time and freshness the day after a hard workout. I've always used Ultragen and would say that next to Pre-Race (which is amazing) that Ultragen is my favorite FE product.

FE products are great, you can't go wrong.

Very interesting reading. I agree that one should be willing to try new things even if old ways work fine. A few thoughts, though...

1000+ mg electrolytes/serving?! Yikes. Are there still people out there that believe exercise induced muscle cramping is solely the result of electrolyte depletion? Why then do non-working muscles not cramp? In fact what is much more likely the cause is muscles not accustomed to the length and/or duration of punishment to which they're being subjected. Put simply, you're not training at the same intensity as you are when racing. Solution: train harder, at least some of the time.

The amount of electrolytes you require during training and racing is a direct function of how much you consume in your diet. Cut down on your sodium intake and you will find you require less during training and racing. I've used Perpetuem without issue for years on long training rides and hot IMs without popping a single Endurolyte or other salt pill. (The label shows 231mg Sodium and 156mg Potassium per serving.) Consider also that hyponatremia is easy to correct. Hypernatremia is not.

That pro or elite athletes X, Y, and Z endorse a product means very little. (A) They're often sponsored, (B) fact is these folks would wup most of our asses eating bagels and cream cheese, and (C) no single product works for all of us.

I suspect many folks who switch to a new product aren't just switching to a new product, they've also upped their commitment to training, and perhaps altered/intensified their training. In other words, they're getting more fit. This would have very little to do with which product they're ingesting.

Please keep in mind I'm not trying to dump on EFS or any product. I believe it's good to keep an open mind and in fact, I'll probably try it.

I admit that I have not tried it yet. Thanks for the info, your description of the taste is pretty appealing to me.

It's not that I NEED that many cals in one dose, but I usually start an IM with 2x800-900 cal bottles which last for the whole ride. Sip from the concentrate, take a few gulps of water, repeat every 15 minutes. No messing with gels or bars or anything else on the bike.

-C

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

All,
If its dense calories that you are looking for, I suggest you go with the EFS liquid shot. Its designed to be absorbed well and taste well at this concentration and at 100 calories per ounce it easily gets you the caloric density you are looking for. Drop 8oz or 800 calories into a water bottle, then top off with water. Think CarboPro with three carbohydrate sources + electrolytes + amino acids. I think (of course I am very biased here) you will be very pleased with its performance and taste.

Our recommendation is to use EFS drinks as the foundation and add calories using the EFS liquid shot.

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Robert Kunz / Founder and VP of Science for First Endurance

Thanks for the info. Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly: You recommend mixing standard strength EFS drink (what is that, 12oz?) into a water bottle (so perhaps 2.5 servings into a regular 30oz bottle, 240 cals), and then adding liquid shot to get the desired calorie concentration? That makes sense. Do you prefer this method over mixing, say, 9-10 servings of the drink into a bottle because of osmality concerns?

One quibble, since I'm a mathematician. The flask sitting in front of me right now says 5oz and 400 cals, so technically that's 100 cals in 1.25 oz., or 80cals/oz :)

Thanks for all the info,
-Colin

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Try them both and see. Personally, I can't stand the taste of Cliff's brand of gels. They make great bars and the I like the shots. However, I have used EFS and like it. Whereas Cliff shots make me sick.

I jumped from perpetuem to EFS and I like it a lot more, the taste is better and the cool part is that I don't need any more salt tablets on hot days! I still carry some pills just in case but my new formula is much simpler, I take the grape flavor and use 3 or 4 scoops when the ride is too hot! if not I use 2 scoops of lemon which is my favorite. The difference I found was that I had too much gas with all the protein in perpetuem and now that problem is gone with EFS. And for running I'm using the vanilla liquid shot and I love it. What I did is that I kept using the Perpetuem until it was finished and the bought the EFS can, I don't have the stomach to waist 44 greens!!!! and I also did it in the off season... best time to do it!! Good Luck!

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Every morning a gazelle wakes up knowing, it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed...
Every morning a lion wakes up knowing it must outwit and outrun (at least) the slowest gazelle or it will starve to death...
It doesn't matter whether you are a lion or a gazelle, when the sun comes up, you'd better start running.

How you do it and how you plan to carry the calories is entirely up to you. I prefer carrying the flasks and keeping it separated from the EFS drink. But basically it comes down to how the products were formulated and flavored. EFS drinks were formulated to be mixed in a 7% solution, so one scoop in 12oz. You can go up to 1.5 scoops in 12oz.

So using the products as designed you get roughly 250-300 calories into a large water bottle from the EFS drink. X2=500 to 600 calories. Supplement additional calories by carrying a flask..in a Bento Box, jersey pocket or flask holder (Nathan makes one that is designed to clip on your bike).
The flask does say 5oz but in all reality its 4.5oz fill due to some head space left in the flask.

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Robert Kunz / Founder and VP of Science for First Endurance

Thanks.

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

"How much you sweat out and how much you store have a huge genetic component to it."

Regardless of how huge the genetic component is, I think we can agree it isn't 100%. And whatever the actual percentage is, it is not within our control, being genetic. So let's focus on something that is within our control: sodium intake.

The quantity of sodium you ingest in your diet does influence what is lost during exercise. You won't find many health professionals claiming excess sodium in the diet doesn't negatively affect your health and therefore your performance. Clearly less sodium intake = less sodium loss, and therefore less to replace during exercise. The benefits of reduced sodium intake will not be instantaneous, of course, but over time the body will adapt and require less, even during exercise.

hmmm not exactly. Sodium in the diet is not recommended due to effects on blood pressure and kidney function (interrelated). when health professionals discuss limiting sodium they are NOT addressing endurance athletes. In fact for marathons and half iron and longer races the big concern in the med tent is hyponatremia (sodium being TOO low). sweat composition does not change due to your dietary shifts. you DO need to replace lost sodium whilst training and racing (along with lost potassium, magnesium, calcium). Electrolytes, both mono and divalent are crucial to muscle, nerve and circulatory functions.