Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Of course it's cheating if it's against the rules. The question is whether it's just cheating oneself, or everyone.

I've only had one real disaster of a race. Early last year I did a race (non-standard but a bit tougher than a typical 70.3). The swim was the root of the problem I think. I hadn't been doing much swimming in the lead up but should have been okay. On the day, I swam considerably slower than usual and felt awful. It was a relatively small but a strong field. I'm used to finishing in the top half, I came out of the water second last. It was two 1km loops and I already felt awful after the first. The leaders were already heading for their bikes when I ran across the beach and back into the water. The bike had a turnaround and a very aggressive cut-off time, not aided by a strong headwind on the outbound leg. I passed a handful on the bike but still missed the turnaround cut-off, by about 2 minutes. I asked the offical at the turn if I could finish the race and he said yes, so long as the sweep car didn't catch up to me I could continue but I wouldn't be included in official results. That was fine with me. I carried on, still feeling awful for the remainder of the bike, managed to overtake a couple more cyclists and stayed ahead of the sweep car. I started the run and did half the first loop of a 3 loop course before severe knee pain forced me to walk. I still started the second loop, hoping to get moving again but already knowing the result would be a disaster no matter what happened. By the far end of the second loop I was limping badly and just about made it back to the turn for the finish line but with one lap not done. I took the turn, got cheered as I approached the finish, which I found very embarrassing, and then I stepped to the side and walked down the outside of the finish chute to find some friends I knew would be waiting at the line. A volunteer still chased me with a medal which I politely refused.

I could have skipped the second lap of the swim, though it might have been obvious. I could have turned early on the bike route, which would have been easy and probably wouldn't have been seen. I could have taken a short cut on the return leg on the bike rather than do the very substantial 10km+ climb with nearly 1000m of ascent. I could have stopped on the first lap of the run rather than the second and could have pretended I'd finished as I went down the finish chute. It's unlikely anyone would have noticed. My training buddy who I regularly beat was already finished having done the full distance, by the time I reached the line having cut it short. I only stopped early because I was worried I'd damage my knee further if I didn't. I only continued because I was permitted. I only went to the finish because I had to meet people. I was kinda proud of hanging on as long as I possibly could despite a truly horrendous day that I have never been able to explain.

If you risk missing the swim cutoff, try anyway and see what happens. If it's so bad your safety may be at risk - pull out. If you can't make it all the way, go as far as you can....within the rules. Making a calculation and deciding to move onto part 2 without finishing part 1 is a different thing entirely.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RowToTri wrote:

But to be honest, if one thinks there is a reasonable chance (>30%?) they won't make the swim cutoff, they probably should not be racing an ironman and they made a bad decision to even start the race. If they had an unexpected issue not related to poor swim skill that caused this (ripped wetsuit lost their goggles, etc.), then I guess that is better.


I've come across an athlete who started ~20 ironmans and never finished, often didn't have a bike time. There are some really stubborn people.
Last edited by: TriStart: May 15, 18 4:45
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I work for a multisport company and in every event we have people that can not or do not finish the swim... sometimes bike for whatever reason. Freak out in their wetsuit, snap their rear derailleur off, many reasons why people don't complete these two legs... we will give them the option to "finish" if they'd like but DQ them. As long as they're DQ'd I'm fine with them doing whatever... they paid, trained, etc. so I'm all for them getting part of the experience they were hoping for.

If that person were doing one of our events, we'd want them to tell us what they'd done, we'd let them keep their chip and continue the race so they'd get their splits, etc. but would be DQ'd from the race.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [xeon] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
xeon wrote:
I work for a multisport company and in every event we have people that can not or do not finish the swim... sometimes bike for whatever reason. Freak out in their wetsuit, snap their rear derailleur off, many reasons why people don't complete these two legs... we will give them the option to "finish" if they'd like but DQ them. As long as they're DQ'd I'm fine with them doing whatever... they paid, trained, etc. so I'm all for them getting part of the experience they were hoping for.

If that person were doing one of our events, we'd want them to tell us what they'd done, we'd let them keep their chip and continue the race so they'd get their splits, etc. but would be DQ'd from the race.

This happened at Cedar Point 140.6 a few years ago, the water was really rough, and they were pulling swimmers left and right. As an observer, I thought it was nice they were letting them continue the event after being pulled. It pissed my wife off as a competitor, because (having finished the swim), she didn't know the girl she was racing against for a podium was a DQ because she didn't finish the swim.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [uk_bloke] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
uk_bloke wrote:
In one of my first triathlons i got really bad cramp in my foot and was struggling to swim. A lifeguard pulled me out of the lake and took me back to swim exit. I explained the situation to an official and asked if i could continue the race, he agreed, and i completed it, but was subsequently DQ'd. My conscience is clear, i don't think i cheated, i didn't even officially finish the race.

I did have an opportunity to cheat though, they took me to the swim exit, and i was arriving around the same time as the swim leaders, i could have easily joined them going into T1, and out on the bike, and i don't think anyone would have ever known.

I would agree with this...or the other mechanical failure posts.

You officially DQed BEFORE you continued. Asked. Ran it by the directors. Gave them the situation. You still "raced" at speed and didn't just diddle daddle. Go for it.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In theory, is this any different than starting a race knowing you will not/can not complete the run? I know a fair number of racers that look at it as a long training day since they’ve paid for it already. Why is it any different if it is the swim?

You’re a douche canoe if you take the medal though.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [Mizzouvet] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
can someone post this same question on LetsRun?

I want to see the epic roasting that will unfold
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TulkasTri wrote:
RandMart wrote:
Are there double letters involved in any way?


I think that rule only applies when the objective is to get on the podium.

Says who?

BQs also come into play [example: Mike Rossi]

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [Mizzouvet] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Mizzouvet wrote:
In theory, is this any different than starting a race knowing you will not/can not complete the run? I know a fair number of racers that look at it as a long training day since they’ve paid for it already. Why is it any different if it is the swim?....
It's different because you only skip your chosen section of the race and then continue with the rest of it. It's retiring from a component but remaining on the course. That's not the same as retiring from the race and leaving the course which is what happens if you don't finish the run. If you started the run and went all out in the knowledge you weren't going all the way, it would potentially interfere with others but the impact is minor compared to someone skipping and continuing.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [Mizzouvet] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In theory, is this any different than starting a race knowing you will not/can not complete the run?//

That is called Aquabike, they have a division for that...
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JasoninHalifax wrote:
TulkasTri wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
self-declared DQ? not cheating, might be other things, but I wouldn't say they are a cheater if they pull themselves out of the results.

waiting for the officials to find out - that's another story.


Does that mean you are OK with getting in the chute and picking up finisher swag?


It means I don't really care about finisher swag. This person paid hundreds of dollars to the race organizers, and potentially in the thousands to get to the race.... if you want a trinket, have a trinket...

yeah. I don't really care about this much at all. I suppose this is mainly an issue on a race with a more than 1 loop for the swim. So not sure how many races it would be. I thought Rev3 would allow you to continue if you got pulled from the swim but maybe I'm wrong about that. As long as they DQ themselves let them finish. I just don't care. Just like I don't care if a 70.3 finish gets an M-dot tattoo.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I really couldn't care less.

Enjoy your bike ride, have fun on the run.

Hell, even run through the shoot and enjoy the cheering if you really want.

But at the very least, you should go over to the officials afterwards and request a DQ.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [bx3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It drives me nuts when someone “races” me for a 25 when I am in the middle of a swim workout. So while my gut tells me your wife should just get over it, I see where she is coming from, especially in a race.

What about when the guy (because let’s face it, a women would never be so stupid) races the lead runner from the side of the road!
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [bx3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bx3 wrote:
xeon wrote:
I work for a multisport company and in every event we have people that can not or do not finish the swim... sometimes bike for whatever reason. Freak out in their wetsuit, snap their rear derailleur off, many reasons why people don't complete these two legs... we will give them the option to "finish" if they'd like but DQ them. As long as they're DQ'd I'm fine with them doing whatever... they paid, trained, etc. so I'm all for them getting part of the experience they were hoping for.

If that person were doing one of our events, we'd want them to tell us what they'd done, we'd let them keep their chip and continue the race so they'd get their splits, etc. but would be DQ'd from the race.


This happened at Cedar Point 140.6 a few years ago, the water was really rough, and they were pulling swimmers left and right. As an observer, I thought it was nice they were letting them continue the event after being pulled. It pissed my wife off as a competitor, because (having finished the swim), she didn't know the girl she was racing against for a podium was a DQ because she didn't finish the swim.

I believe this also happened in 2012 at the "epic" and last St. George Ironman. I finished the swim but there were hundreds that didn't and I'm pretty sure I heard the next day that they got to continue w/race director's permission, albeit, DQ'd.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JasoninHalifax wrote:
They can have the "M", but not the "dot"

Or another tattoo, althogether



"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
No debate on the DQ. I have DQ'd 6&7 year olds for missing the wall on a flip turn... it's not the 49 or 99 metre Backstroke.


I wouldn't label the kid a cheater as this is an honest mistake but they are being DQd.

Your person in the story is a cheater. They should have attempted the 2nd lap and took their lumps if they missed the cut off.

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Don't start until you are under 1:45 in the pool ...

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I guess I do not fully understand.

How would you NOT get caught every single time?

Are you telling me someone could swim a first lap of say...1:02...and just skip the second with no one the wiser?
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If you're a MOP to BOP'er I can see getting away with it.

IM with a two loop swim, start late in the rolling start, swim slowly, get out with the mid packers, carry on. No one is going to pay attention or examine the splits of someone going 15:XX

Even if you got out with the 1:00 level, and went on to an 8 hour bike and 5-6 hour run, who's gonna look at that?
Last edited by: ChrisM: May 15, 18 12:26
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Proof of time has been around in swimming for decades. Pretty easy to do now with online results.

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeah, but what if you get out with a 1:01 and a 4:30 bike and a 3:05 run? If they don't catch you on the spot...

I guess the question would be...is it harder to swim a 1:27 pace for 4200 or 2:54 pace for 2100....
Last edited by: LifeTri: May 15, 18 12:41
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
LifeTri wrote:
Yeah, but what if you get out with a 1:01 and a 4:30 bike and a 3:05 run? If they don't catch you on the spot...


Slowtwitch to the rescue, although those splits would not raise an eyebrow unless someone looked at past swim times. 1:01 is not blazing fast but it's up there. ETA - It would be easy to suss out, but point is there would need to be some other reason, other than splits, to suspect and cause one to go into prior races
Last edited by: ChrisM: May 15, 18 12:43
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [uk_bloke] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You have to start somewhere and regardless of time/money or emotional investment you have on an event - cutting the course is cutting the course. I do call that cheating - if you cant do the length in its entirety than try again and learn from the last experience.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [teddygram] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
if you cant do the length in its entirety than try again and learn from the last experience. //

Or how about this novel idea, go and do shorter races starting with sprints, work your way up to 1/2 distance, and once mastered(at your level) move onto doing an ironman distance race. I think it is criminal that coaches let their athletes do an ironman for their first, or first few triathlons. Doesn't make any sense...
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think the best solution here is to hold them back until 2:20 has passed for their wave, allow them to get out on the course at that time and then enforce the bike cut off time with impunity. If they miss the swim because of something give them a pass (once) but if the bike portion falls short, pull them and DQ/DNF them. I would also say that this should be an exception not a rule so 10 people can't get this exemption on the day.

I agree if they can't make the cut off it's probably not a good indication that they are in the proper shape to participate. The bike leg cut off would validate that and seeing as the run is the toughest on the body, probably not a good idea to let them out there to complete that.

In the end of the day it may also be the catalyst for them to start their Triathlon fire burning for their next shot at Ironman. I'd prefer we keep as many people in the sport as possible vs reject those who are new or out of shape from the sport.

------
"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"
Quote Reply

Prev Next