Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I don't like getting all caught up in whether someone is a "cheater" or not. That's a really loaded term for the facts you described. Nevertheless, I'd understand the race director wanting DQ's and DNF's off the course ASAP. And, no, I don't think the person should run through the shute, and take the medal and finisher's hat. They didn't finish.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
if you cant do the length in its entirety than try again and learn from the last experience. //

Or how about this novel idea, go and do shorter races starting with sprints, work your way up to 1/2 distance, and once mastered(at your level) move onto doing an ironman distance race. I think it is criminal that coaches let their athletes do an ironman for their first, or first few triathlons. Doesn't make any sense...

Monty - you are absolutely correct! I started thinking about this and thought how did I do my first 140.6 (+/- 5%)

I started off as racing bikes as a Junior and then raced collegiate and then during college I did the hardest thing in my life (at the time, Olympic triathlon) and then progressed from there - before I even signed up for my first 140.6 I probably had 5-6 oly, 4-5 sprints and 2 70.3 under my belt.

I was asked by a friend a few months ago about how to do the full 140.6 and I told them 2 years of training up to it - I should have read this thread in its entirety or stated my answer better.

Lets say I worked up to the 140.6 but didn't make the cut off - that's when my let the learned experience come in.

In my mind you are insane to just go and do a 140.6, the distance needs respect and worked up too.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [SH] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I guess i dont really see a scenario where an ironman participant cant expect to finish the swim under the cutoff time unless something ridiculous occurs like the cutoff time NOT starting from when the last participant hits the water, I could see a later wave having 2h20m from the first elite wave being a little sketchy at larger events though

If you're not a good swimmer dont do a full, I see no reason why an able-bodied competitor couldnt finish the swim in 1h40 or so, assuming kicked in the face, panic attack, and sighting issues all happen at the same time

Perhaps if the individual is disabled in some fashion thats another story

//Noob triathlete//bike commuter//ex-swimmer//slower than you

Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I would say about 1/3 of triathletes cheat, if given the opportunity. It's part of human nature. I would bet that same person that cuts the course, also cheats at work, cheats at school, cheats his spouse. etc. If you are that 1/3 out there then you will find a way to rationalize what you do. However, you are only cheating yourself. Don't be that guy or girl. Hold yourself to a high standard. Because at the end of the day, YOU have to live with the knowledge you cheated yourself.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [realAB] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
realAB wrote:
Don't start until you are under 1:45 in the pool ...
You mean 1m45s for a single 100m, average over race distance, or what?

I'm an awful swimmer by triathlete standards. I'd be pushed to do 1m45s for a single 100m effort.

I swam 1h28m in my first IM which put me nowhere near the back and nowhere near missing the cut-off. That's an average pace of 2m19s/100m if I'm not mistaken. Yes it was a wetsuit swim which helped, but I don't think that saved me half an hour do you?

...and I've done several 70.3 and shorter races. Came nowhere near the cutoff in any of them.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think he meant 1 hour 45 min to complete the swim.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [terrtri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
look at the IMTX bike course...it is higher than 33%
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Ai_1 wrote:
realAB wrote:
Don't start until you are under 1:45 in the pool ...

You mean 1m45s for a single 100m, average over race distance, or what?

I'm an awful swimmer by triathlete standards. I'd be pushed to do 1m45s for a single 100m effort.

I swam 1h28m in my first IM which put me nowhere near the back and nowhere near missing the cut-off. That's an average pace of 2m19s/100m if I'm not mistaken. Yes it was a wetsuit swim which helped, but I don't think that saved me half an hour do you?

...and I've done several 70.3 and shorter races. Came nowhere near the cutoff in any of them.

I'm in the 1:45/100m avg and definitely awful by this forum's standards. But I'm well ahead of cutoff points at any of the distances. I think a lot of MOP and below prepare the least for the swim. My goal for the HIM/IM swim is just to be fit enough where I'm not coming out of the water exhausted and hopefully be somewhere in the MOP. I definitely feel like a lot of BOP swimmers tend to just slog away in the pool just swimming a bunch of laps without any intensity. And if their technique is poor that makes for a tough IM swim. Maybe one day I'll decide it's worth it to invest a bunch of time in an off season to improve on the swim.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [Etip] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Etip wrote:
I think he meant 1 hour 45 min to complete the swim.
That would be slightly more reasonable but is still suggesting you need a hell of a big buffer. I swim as fast in open water as in the pool. And faster if I'm in a wetsuit. I don't think that's unusual. Why would I need such a big buffer?
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Seems like most of the opining is on a swim cut short. So glad I'm a swimmer and that would never be an issue. I could backstroke - hell, sidestroke, fast enough. But I am one of those who just sucks at running for so many reasons. If I walk to my car instead of finishing the second lap of a run, or just walk to my car instead of the finish line, that wouldn't be okay? Still a DNF. Still cut short just like the swimmers who "have no business doing an IM." I think it is a bigger burden on the race to get swept. Just self-DNF/DQ. Well... I guess I'd need to go get my bike/stuff from transition so walking to my car would just be a temporary rest. You get the point.

Hillary Trout
San Luis Obispo, CA

Your trip is short. Make the most of it.
https://www.slogoing.net/
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [SLOgoing] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just replying to the end of the thread....

I don't give a shit about someone being on the course who paid to be there, even though they cut swim/bike/run or whatever. The only thing I'd care about would be "taking a time". If you screw up and you know it, then self-report after the race, so the RD can have "accurate" results for all qualified finishers. Keep your number on, keep your timing chip on---so the race officials know you are on the course or have crossed the finish line.

Just self-report, and I'm all good.


Run down the finishing chute. Get your picture taken, take your cap/shirt/medal. I really don't care---as far as I'm concerned, those were paid for with the entry fee. I wouldn't take, wear, or display one that I didn't "earn." but, that's just my ethos.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: May 16, 18 11:55
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
1H45 for 3800m ... 2:43/100m

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It’s a race, not a day out training, if you can’t complete a leg of the race you shouldn’t be out there.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Should or should not has no meaning. They DID pay, and they ARE out there. Their "intent" is irrelevant. If they want to treat it as a "supported" training day, and don't want to "race"...I really don't care, and I don't see why I should.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: May 16, 18 13:38
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Run down the finishing chute. Get your picture taken, take your cap/shirt/medal. I really don't care---as far as I'm concerned, those were paid for with the entry fee.//

Actually they were not paid for, as when that person entered the race he agreed to the set of cutoffs for each course. He paid to race under those guidelines and failed to meet up with the very first one. We get it you dont care, but for someone that doesn't care you seem to have a very strong opinion. I do care about the volunteers that have to stay overtime, the aid stations that have to remain open, and the schedule that gets all fucked up by not adhering to cutoff times. Other people are involved in these decisions and not just this one person. And if you are ok with them cutting the course, what about the bike or run courses too. Get a little tired, skip a loop on the bike, can't make the run, just turn around early, or get a taxi?? Is that what you are advocating should be allowed because you dont really care??


And there are usually 10% or so no shows who also dont get their medals, finishers shirts, and whatever other swag you get at the finish. Did they pay for all that too with their check only, or do that actually have to show up and race like everyone else??
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:

Actually they were not paid for, as when that person entered the race he agreed to the set of cutoffs for each course.
...
And there are usually 10% or so no shows who also dont get their medals, finishers shirts, and whatever other swag you get at the finish. Did they pay for all that too with their check only, or do that actually have to show up and race like everyone else??

So, the finishing medals/schwag aren't baked into the entry price?

The last race I did (A local Oly)...they handed out the schwag at check-in the day before the race. The only thing at the finish line was the medal.

Quote:
He paid to race under those guidelines and failed to meet up with the very first one. We get it you dont care, but for someone that doesn't care you seem to have a very strong opinion.





The only strong opinion I have is that: Someone who wants to be ranked with the race finishers adhere to the rules of the race. If they don't want to be ranked (and self-report to timing and scoring), then its no skin off my nose (as a racer) what they do.



Quote:

I do care about the volunteers that have to stay overtime, the aid stations that have to remain open, and the schedule that gets all fucked up by not adhering to cutoff times. Other people are involved in these decisions and not just this one person.



That's a different question than the one that was posed. The incident in question was NOT staying out on the course PAST the cutoff, but rather cutting the swim short to avoid being in the water past the cutoff. This person did not cause any schedule to get all fucked up. But, to answer your question:


I don't have a problem with the RD sweeping up people on course (swim, bike, or run) at their respective cutoffs. Especially the swim, because I get that the kayakers may have other things to do...and you can't just leave someone in the water.


Quote:

And if you are ok with them cutting the course, what about the bike or run courses too. Get a little tired, skip a loop on the bike, can't make the run, just turn around early, or get a taxi?? Is that what you are advocating should be allowed because you dont really care??



The taxi comment is a bit hyperbolic...but, (as stated above) as long as someone withdraws from the ranked results, their machinations to stay within the course cutoff times don't offend me.

Again, I get that there are lots of issues with people staying on course PAST CUTOFF---permits, volunteers, safety, etc. But, this question was NOT THAT.

Look, if they take a time on the timesheet, they are cheating. Period. No question about it. *I* just like every other honest racer...I take a very dim view of that.

There are a lot of people out there who just seem to want to be "participants", not "racers". Possibly more than racers. Should that piss me off? It doesn't.

Is there a venue for these personality types to "participate in a triathlon"...eg, an MS-70.3? Not that I know of.

Maybe that could be solved by a "non-racer" entry class.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
last year at IMWI I had mechanical issues on the bike and had to limp it back to transition after one loop. I went out and did the run course because I felt like if I was going to DNF i wanted to cover as many miles as I could anyway. I emailed the RD that night and volunteered the DNF or DQ. I will be back this year.

I didn't consider it cheating, i was just making the best of a shitty situation. The RD didn't either as I was very upfront about it.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The taxi comment is a bit hyperbolic.//

In one of the very first Kona races I did, a guy took a taxi and finished 10th( I believe he was a lawyer). And didn't Rosie Ruiz take a taxi (or was it subway) to win the Boston marathon?? Probably happens more than we know, actually I know it happens more than we know...(-; I guess their only transgressions for you was that they actually finished the race and took a place? Ok, mine go just a bit deeper than that...
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
The taxi comment is a bit hyperbolic.//

In one of the very first Kona races I did, a guy took a taxi and finished 10th( I believe he was a lawyer). And didn't Rosie Ruiz take a taxi (or was it subway) to win the Boston marathon?? Probably happens more than we know, actually I know it happens more than we know...(-; I guess their only transgressions for you was that they actually finished the race and took a place? Ok, mine go just a bit deeper than that...

You DO understand that you're describing two situations that do not fall into the same scenario that Tom_hampton is describing, right?

Under his clear statements, he would have just as much of a problem with Rosie and Mr. Lawyer Guy as you have. If they had self-reported their cheating and gotten themselves taken off the results sheet, he wouldn't have a problem with it. Since they didn't do that, I would bet dollars to donuts that Tom_hampton would be right with you complaining about their cheating (had he been there).

''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [Danno] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I guess you missed this part of my post:

I guess their only transgressions for you was that they actually finished the race and took a place? Ok, mine go just a bit deeper than that...
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
I guess their only transgressions for you was that they actually finished the race and took a place? Ok, mine go just a bit deeper than that...


It all comes down to ethics, integrity, and honesty. These things are at the very top of my list when evaluating a person. They are pervasive in how a person conducts their life. I don't find that people compartmentalize their cheating (or honesty/integrity). If you lie/cheat/steal in one aspect, it is probably in most/all aspects of your life.

I know lots of people who will do "anything at work to get ahead" but are allegedly "perfectly nice people" outside of work. I am not capable of separating the two, and will NOT socialize with these types of people.

So, when you say "only transgression", I actually consider that a VERY SEVERE transgression. And I refuse to associated with those that do.

But, if someone says, "I'm just here to try my best and have some fun, please don't rank me. Y'all go race, save me a beer." I'm perfectly cool with them being on the course with me, and will be happy to hand them a beer when they cross the finish line.

ETA: I'd also be happy to laugh with them when they explain why their swim went to shit, and how they came out of the water after the first loop and said "fuck it, I guess I'm not racing this one!".
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: May 16, 18 15:18
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
I guess you missed this part of my post:

I guess their only transgressions for you was that they actually finished the race and took a place? Ok, mine go just a bit deeper than that...

No. I didn't miss it. Based on the rest of your post, it seemed like you just didn't give it any credence.

''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If they know after half the swim they won't make the cutoff, odds are they didn't train for many months.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Tom_hampton wrote:
Should or should not has no meaning. They DID pay, and they ARE out there. Their "intent" is irrelevant. If they want to treat it as a "supported" training day, and don't want to "race"...I really don't care, and I don't see why I should.

Why pay $800 then? just do a free training day.

Rules of entry are pretty clear with the cut offs. Cutting a course and finishing the other legs cheapens the sport, you paid for a race, not a training session, no matter your time goals. Idiots should train more and respect the distance or do the honourable thing, dnf and try again next year.
Quote Reply
Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I wouldn't, and obviously neither would you.

But, maybe some people do it to be with a group. Or maybe they do it to be "supported". I don't know. People do all kinds of crazy shit I don't understand.

The question was asked, "is it still cheating..." and that sort of morphed into "how do you feel about it, if..."

I gave my answer, and have clarified its basis. I wasn't (and still am not) trying to convince you or Monty or anyone else that my feelings on the matter are the one-true-way. Nor would I begin to attempt to explain someone else's behavior which I can't even relate to.

I think the "cheapens the sport" horse was let out of the barn a loooong time ago---when someone saw large dollar signs associated with a "brand". No one is putting that genie back in the bottle (to mix metaphors).
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: May 16, 18 16:53
Quote Reply

Prev Next