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Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating?
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Alright, I'm having an internal debate about this one. Say someone at a recent Ironman race (with a 2 loop swim), had a really bad first loop, came out and realized that they are not going to make cut off if they get back in the water, and they will most likely be pulled out of the race, decides to just go straight to the bike and at least get a chance to do the rest of the course; after all, they have been training for this race for many months. This person knows perfectly well that he will get a DNF because of not doing the 2nd loop (DQ in reality), and he's not aiming for the podium or a PR, he just wants to have a chance at doing the rest of the course.

Would you be OK with this, as long as they bail out of the course before the finishing chute?

What if they decide to go into the chute, take the medal, take the finisher's hat? Does your opinion change?

Note: Person was DQed a few minutes after finishing the race.
Last edited by: TulkasTri: May 14, 18 10:19
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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I am going to grab another cup of coffee....this thread should be a good one.


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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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I think I'm inclined to say if they pull themselves out before the finishing chute and turn in their chip with a request for a DQ, then I'm not going to get upset about it.

But to be honest, if one thinks there is a reasonable chance (>30%?) they won't make the swim cutoff, they probably should not be racing an ironman and they made a bad decision to even start the race. If they had an unexpected issue not related to poor swim skill that caused this (ripped wetsuit lost their goggles, etc.), then I guess that is better.

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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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Although I feel a little douchey saying it, yes cheating (not even gonna talk about entering the chute and collecting swag,that's a no brainer). He shouldn't be on the course taking up space and "racing" others having missed the first cutoff.

Although in the moment I'd probably say "meh, go ahead and get a long training day out of it." As long as he stays out of my way.

But if you are doing something that will get you a DQ, it's cheating.
Last edited by: ChrisM: May 14, 18 10:26
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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self-declared DQ? not cheating, might be other things, but I wouldn't say they are a cheater if they pull themselves out of the results.

waiting for the officials to find out - that's another story.

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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
self-declared DQ? not cheating, might be other things, but I wouldn't say they are a cheater if they pull themselves out of the results.

waiting for the officials to find out - that's another story.

Does that mean you are OK with getting in the chute and picking up finisher swag?
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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TulkasTri wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
self-declared DQ? not cheating, might be other things, but I wouldn't say they are a cheater if they pull themselves out of the results.

waiting for the officials to find out - that's another story.


Does that mean you are OK with getting in the chute and picking up finisher swag?

It means I don't really care about finisher swag. This person paid hundreds of dollars to the race organizers, and potentially in the thousands to get to the race.... if you want a trinket, have a trinket...

____________________________________
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
TulkasTri wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
self-declared DQ? not cheating, might be other things, but I wouldn't say they are a cheater if they pull themselves out of the results.

waiting for the officials to find out - that's another story.


Does that mean you are OK with getting in the chute and picking up finisher swag?


It means I don't really care about finisher swag. This person paid hundreds of dollars to the race organizers, and potentially in the thousands to get to the race.... if you want a trinket, have a trinket...

Yeah, I can totally see that. Freaking races are $700+, and that doesn't include travel and lodging.
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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My problem with this that there are people who shouldn't be allowed in the race because there is no qualifier to do an Ironman.

It is absolutely ridiculous. It's billed as the toughest event on Earth, but you can have people on the starting line that have no clue what they are doing. It makes it dangerous for themselves and for everybody around them.

It's an obvious money-grab by Ironman to not deter any potential customers. But they could easily make up the money by mandating having completed a 70.3 under a certain time before you can do your first Ironman or if you haven't done one in many years. Marketing a "Path to Ironman" with a couple 70.3s and then a full 140.6 would generate a lot of revenue and eliminate a lot of the people who shouldn't be there at all.

If you want to do Ultraman, you have to have done an Ironman in the previous year or something like that. Ironman should mandate at least a 70.3 recently with a time under X (depending on the course). That extra drama could spice things up a bit, too. :)


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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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TulkasTri wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
TulkasTri wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
self-declared DQ? not cheating, might be other things, but I wouldn't say they are a cheater if they pull themselves out of the results.

waiting for the officials to find out - that's another story.


Does that mean you are OK with getting in the chute and picking up finisher swag?


It means I don't really care about finisher swag. This person paid hundreds of dollars to the race organizers, and potentially in the thousands to get to the race.... if you want a trinket, have a trinket...


Yeah, I can totally see that. Freaking races are $700+, and that doesn't include travel and lodging.

What was the reason for the inability to finish 2.4 in 2:20, unexpected technical issues or training? If the latter, I'd say don't spend $700 on a race if you can't finish 2.4 in 2:20, which is very very very generous. If the former then I might have some sympathy.
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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Do you man. I'm already out of the water dropping watts.
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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ChrisM wrote:
TulkasTri wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
TulkasTri wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
self-declared DQ? not cheating, might be other things, but I wouldn't say they are a cheater if they pull themselves out of the results.

waiting for the officials to find out - that's another story.


Does that mean you are OK with getting in the chute and picking up finisher swag?


It means I don't really care about finisher swag. This person paid hundreds of dollars to the race organizers, and potentially in the thousands to get to the race.... if you want a trinket, have a trinket...


Yeah, I can totally see that. Freaking races are $700+, and that doesn't include travel and lodging.


What was the reason for the inability to finish 2.4 in 2:20, unexpected technical issues or training? If the latter, I'd say don't spend $700 on a race if you can't finish 2.4 in 2:20, which is very very very generous. If the former then I might have some sympathy.

I think the person had it in him to be done in about 2:00, so coming out of the 1st loop above 1:10 suggests something went wrong, but I don't know the details. Not a solid swimmer whatsoever, but training suggested that he was going to finish around 1:55-2:00. The rest of the race went just fine.
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TheMallard] [ In reply to ]
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TheMallard wrote:
Do you man. I'm already out of the water dropping watts.

I'm not too emotionally invested in this, to be honest. I know what I would and wouldn't do. I'm just curious to see what the proper "etiquette" for a situation like this is.
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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Let the person(s) who legally finished the swim in over 2hrs decide if said person should get to continue onto the bike.
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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TulkasTri wrote:
TheMallard wrote:
Do you man. I'm already out of the water dropping watts.


I'm not too emotionally invested in this, to be honest. I know what I would and wouldn't do. I'm just curious to see what the proper "etiquette" for a situation like this is.

I don't think there is an "etiquette" for this. Doubt anyone would care or even notice. I wouldn't. I would get a bit perturbed though if someone got the medal or hat and was asked if they did the race and they responded with "yes"...that's not cool.
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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Are there double letters involved in any way?

As for the whole "Body Is A Temple" thing? Well, many ancient deities often enjoyed offerings of Sweets and Intoxicants
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [ChrisM] [ In reply to ]
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ChrisM wrote:
TulkasTri wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
TulkasTri wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
self-declared DQ? not cheating, might be other things, but I wouldn't say they are a cheater if they pull themselves out of the results.

waiting for the officials to find out - that's another story.


Does that mean you are OK with getting in the chute and picking up finisher swag?


It means I don't really care about finisher swag. This person paid hundreds of dollars to the race organizers, and potentially in the thousands to get to the race.... if you want a trinket, have a trinket...


Yeah, I can totally see that. Freaking races are $700+, and that doesn't include travel and lodging.


What was the reason for the inability to finish 2.4 in 2:20, unexpected technical issues or training? If the latter, I'd say don't spend $700 on a race if you can't finish 2.4 in 2:20, which is very very very generous. If the former then I might have some sympathy.


I def feel this way, in that if you're not making a freaking 2:20 swim cutoff, you are grossly unprepare for the swim , but I will also admit that I am probably in the wrong on this one!

There have been so many successful rookie ironman/women competitors who barely make the swim cutoff, that it's fine for them. I don't think we should be so elitist to say they shouldn't take up race space just because we swim faster. These slowsters aren't messing up anyone else's race out there, even if you have to swim around them because you started several waves back.

We have enough stuff to chase as AGers to 'prove' that we're good - KQ, national AG, USAT all-American, etc. Leave the beginners and rookies to their own struggles on the swim or bike/run.

The reality as well is that most AGers simply don't have enough time to train adequately for an IM-length SBR. The bike/run alone truly requires so much commitment on its own to do it 'well' that building the swim during an IM build is really hard for the typical AGer who barely cracks 8-10hrs/wk of training.
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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I think all rules are written in a way that state something to the effect of "Athlete must complete the X course by Y time in order to proceed to the Z portion of the course." If the rules have provisions that allow the athlete to continue onto the course despite not making a preset cutoff time (and not receive an official time), then it's all good. I think I've seen local races do this where the RD notes your number, possibly pulls your chip, and you go on your merry way.

But if the rules don't allow this, or have provisions for it...then to me it falls under the category of "I know this is against the rules, but I'm special, and because yada yada yada...I feel like I am entitled to do what I think is okay."
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
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RandMart wrote:
Are there double letters involved in any way?

I think that rule only applies when the objective is to get on the podium.
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
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Jason N wrote:
I think all rules are written in a way that state something to the effect of "Athlete must complete the X course by Y time in order to proceed to the Z portion of the course." If the rules have provisions that allow the athlete to continue onto the course despite not making a preset cutoff time (and not receive an official time), then it's all good. I think I've seen local races do this where the RD notes your number, possibly pulls your chip, and you go on your merry way.

But if the rules don't allow this, or have provisions for it...then to me it falls under the category of "I know this is against the rules, but I'm special, and because yada yada yada...I feel like I am entitled to do what I think is okay."

While I generally don't give a shit (unless said person knocks me over on the bike course when they shouldn't have been there in the first place....), and actually don't really care if they go get their participant medal/hat (although I think it's wrong.. whatever), the bolded is what keeps me in the "cheating" camp. While it's not necessarily "cheating" (even tho it is...), it's more a reflection of a very selfish individual. But hell, I guess that's the definition of many of us doing this stupid distance.
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [TheMallard] [ In reply to ]
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Yea dawg the only thing I want to know is his phone number so I can ask if he found that hammer I dropped on the bike course.
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
TulkasTri wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
self-declared DQ? not cheating, might be other things, but I wouldn't say they are a cheater if they pull themselves out of the results.

waiting for the officials to find out - that's another story.


Does that mean you are OK with getting in the chute and picking up finisher swag?


It means I don't really care about finisher swag. This person paid hundreds of dollars to the race organizers, and potentially in the thousands to get to the race.... if you want a trinket, have a trinket...

Right. They paid hundreds of $s to enter a race. They aren't giving the money for a guaranteed medal and hat. If you don't make the cutoff you are done. And this coming from a guy that just barely finished the swim in time at Silverman back when it was an indie race. If I didn't make it, I would have stopped then and there knowing it was my fault for not completing it.

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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
My problem with this that there are people who shouldn't be allowed in the race because there is no qualifier to do an Ironman.

It is absolutely ridiculous. It's billed as the toughest event on Earth, but you can have people on the starting line that have no clue what they are doing. It makes it dangerous for themselves and for everybody around them.

It's an obvious money-grab by Ironman to not deter any potential customers. But they could easily make up the money by mandating having completed a 70.3 under a certain time before you can do your first Ironman or if you haven't done one in many years. Marketing a "Path to Ironman" with a couple 70.3s and then a full 140.6 would generate a lot of revenue and eliminate a lot of the people who shouldn't be there at all.

If you want to do Ultraman, you have to have done an Ironman in the previous year or something like that. Ironman should mandate at least a 70.3 recently with a time under X (depending on the course). That extra drama could spice things up a bit, too. :)

I'm all in on this idea... qualification through 70.3 would be an interesting path to see played out.

My thought comes back to a person who may choose not to do a second loop of the swim for a couple reasons.

1- it's not competing within the rules of the event... Similar to how I feel about drafting, it makes me upset that someone would sign up and not follow through on the rules of the event... I suppose if this person decided not to do the second loop of the swim, addressed their concern to the RD then and there, and asked permission to complete the bike and run I'd be less upset or really care. If the inability to complete the second loop is due to equipment, I'd like to see someone try to work it out. Wetsuit ripped? Strip it, hand it off to a volunteer, and swim. Goggles, see if you can bum a back-up somehow or swim head's up breaststroke. Part of what I have enjoyed in my limited exposure to long course is that a perfect day is rare. It's also about how you handle the things that don't go right.

2- Say this person comes out in one hour from the first swim loop and jumps on a bike. That's upper MOP for the whole swim. This may put them on course with a whole group of individuals of a separate skill level and could cause issues. Perhaps their cycling skills are worlds above the swimming skills, but maybe not. When the bike leg gets difficult at mile 90, is this person going to flag down SAG, ride back to transition, and jump on the run course?

As for grabbing hardware, I can't think in my mind how I would feel good about doing this. The medals aren't important to me but they say "finisher" on them. I couldn't call myself a finisher if I didn't actually do the event. So why grab a medal? May I have spent >$700 to do the event? Yep, and it's definitely part of the motivation to stick with it when it's difficult.

If you french fry when you should have pizza'd, you're gonna have a bad day...
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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [M~] [ In reply to ]
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M~ wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
TulkasTri wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
self-declared DQ? not cheating, might be other things, but I wouldn't say they are a cheater if they pull themselves out of the results.

waiting for the officials to find out - that's another story.


Does that mean you are OK with getting in the chute and picking up finisher swag?


It means I don't really care about finisher swag. This person paid hundreds of dollars to the race organizers, and potentially in the thousands to get to the race.... if you want a trinket, have a trinket...


Right. They paid hundreds of $s to enter a race. They aren't giving the money for a guaranteed medal and hat. If you don't make the cutoff you are done. And this coming from a guy that just barely finished the swim in time at Silverman back when it was an indie race. If I didn't make it, I would have stopped then and there knowing it was my fault for not completing it.

I, personally, wouldn't take a medal if I didn't finish the full course. (but then, if they didn't hand them out as soon as I crossed the line, I wouldn't bother with them then either) I've done 2 branded 70.3's and have no idea where those finisher medals are. I think I have them "somewhere" but where? Who knows.

However, I don't know what challenges this person has faced just to get to the starting line, so if it's that important to them to have a memento that they were in the race at all, I'm not gonna judge. I'll give them mine, if they want it.

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Re: Cutting the course for reasons other than trying to win the race. Is it still cheating? [ZenTriBrett] [ In reply to ]
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ZenTriBrett wrote:
My problem with this that there are people who shouldn't be allowed in the race because there is no qualifier to do an Ironman.

It is absolutely ridiculous. It's billed as the toughest event on Earth, but you can have people on the starting line that have no clue what they are doing. It makes it dangerous for themselves and for everybody around them.

It's an obvious money-grab by Ironman to not deter any potential customers. But they could easily make up the money by mandating having completed a 70.3 under a certain time before you can do your first Ironman or if you haven't done one in many years. Marketing a "Path to Ironman" with a couple 70.3s and then a full 140.6 would generate a lot of revenue and eliminate a lot of the people who shouldn't be there at all.

If you want to do Ultraman, you have to have done an Ironman in the previous year or something like that. Ironman should mandate at least a 70.3 recently with a time under X (depending on the course). That extra drama could spice things up a bit, too. :)

What would your cutoff be? Would it be the same for 30 year old man as a 80 year old female?
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