I am going to grab another cup of coffee....this thread should be a good one.

I think I'm inclined to say if they pull themselves out before the finishing chute and turn in their chip with a request for a DQ, then I'm not going to get upset about it.

But to be honest, if one thinks there is a reasonable chance (>30%?) they won't make the swim cutoff, they probably should not be racing an ironman and they made a bad decision to even start the race. If they had an unexpected issue not related to poor swim skill that caused this (ripped wetsuit lost their goggles, etc.), then I guess that is better.

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Although I feel a little douchey saying it, yes cheating (not even gonna talk about entering the chute and collecting swag,that's a no brainer). He shouldn't be on the course taking up space and "racing" others having missed the first cutoff.

Although in the moment I'd probably say "meh, go ahead and get a long training day out of it." As long as he stays out of my way.

But if you are doing something that will get you a DQ, it's cheating.

self-declared DQ? not cheating, might be other things, but I wouldn't say they are a cheater if they pull themselves out of the results.

waiting for the officials to find out - that's another story.

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Does that mean you are OK with getting in the chute and picking up finisher swag?

It means I don't really care about finisher swag. This person paid hundreds of dollars to the race organizers, and potentially in the thousands to get to the race.... if you want a trinket, have a trinket...

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Yeah, I can totally see that. Freaking races are $700+, and that doesn't include travel and lodging.

My problem with this that there are people who shouldn't be allowed in the race because there is no qualifier to do an Ironman.

It is absolutely ridiculous. It's billed as the toughest event on Earth, but you can have people on the starting line that have no clue what they are doing. It makes it dangerous for themselves and for everybody around them.

It's an obvious money-grab by Ironman to not deter any potential customers. But they could easily make up the money by mandating having completed a 70.3 under a certain time before you can do your first Ironman or if you haven't done one in many years. Marketing a "Path to Ironman" with a couple 70.3s and then a full 140.6 would generate a lot of revenue and eliminate a lot of the people who shouldn't be there at all.

If you want to do Ultraman, you have to have done an Ironman in the previous year or something like that. Ironman should mandate at least a 70.3 recently with a time under X (depending on the course). That extra drama could spice things up a bit, too. :)

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What was the reason for the inability to finish 2.4 in 2:20, unexpected technical issues or training? If the latter, I'd say don't spend $700 on a race if you can't finish 2.4 in 2:20, which is very very very generous. If the former then I might have some sympathy.

Do you man. I'm already out of the water dropping watts.

I think the person had it in him to be done in about 2:00, so coming out of the 1st loop above 1:10 suggests something went wrong, but I don't know the details. Not a solid swimmer whatsoever, but training suggested that he was going to finish around 1:55-2:00. The rest of the race went just fine.

I'm not too emotionally invested in this, to be honest. I know what I would and wouldn't do. I'm just curious to see what the proper "etiquette" for a situation like this is.

Let the person(s) who legally finished the swim in over 2hrs decide if said person should get to continue onto the bike.

I don't think there is an "etiquette" for this. Doubt anyone would care or even notice. I wouldn't. I would get a bit perturbed though if someone got the medal or hat and was asked if they did the race and they responded with "yes"...that's not cool.

Are there double letters involved in any way?

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
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I def feel this way, in that if you're not making a freaking 2:20 swim cutoff, you are grossly unprepare for the swim , but I will also admit that I am probably in the wrong on this one!

There have been so many successful rookie ironman/women competitors who barely make the swim cutoff, that it's fine for them. I don't think we should be so elitist to say they shouldn't take up race space just because we swim faster. These slowsters aren't messing up anyone else's race out there, even if you have to swim around them because you started several waves back.

We have enough stuff to chase as AGers to 'prove' that we're good - KQ, national AG, USAT all-American, etc. Leave the beginners and rookies to their own struggles on the swim or bike/run.

The reality as well is that most AGers simply don't have enough time to train adequately for an IM-length SBR. The bike/run alone truly requires so much commitment on its own to do it 'well' that building the swim during an IM build is really hard for the typical AGer who barely cracks 8-10hrs/wk of training.

I think all rules are written in a way that state something to the effect of "Athlete must complete the X course by Y time in order to proceed to the Z portion of the course." If the rules have provisions that allow the athlete to continue onto the course despite not making a preset cutoff time (and not receive an official time), then it's all good. I think I've seen local races do this where the RD notes your number, possibly pulls your chip, and you go on your merry way.

But if the rules don't allow this, or have provisions for it...then to me it falls under the category of "I know this is against the rules, but I'm special, and because yada yada yada...I feel like I am entitled to do what I think is okay."

I think that rule only applies when the objective is to get on the podium.

While I generally don't give a shit (unless said person knocks me over on the bike course when they shouldn't have been there in the first place....), and actually don't really care if they go get their participant medal/hat (although I think it's wrong.. whatever), the bolded is what keeps me in the "cheating" camp. While it's not necessarily "cheating" (even tho it is...), it's more a reflection of a very selfish individual. But hell, I guess that's the definition of many of us doing this stupid distance.

Yea dawg the only thing I want to know is his phone number so I can ask if he found that hammer I dropped on the bike course.

Right. They paid hundreds of $s to enter a race. They aren't giving the money for a guaranteed medal and hat. If you don't make the cutoff you are done. And this coming from a guy that just barely finished the swim in time at Silverman back when it was an indie race. If I didn't make it, I would have stopped then and there knowing it was my fault for not completing it.

I'm all in on this idea... qualification through 70.3 would be an interesting path to see played out.

My thought comes back to a person who may choose not to do a second loop of the swim for a couple reasons.

1- it's not competing within the rules of the event... Similar to how I feel about drafting, it makes me upset that someone would sign up and not follow through on the rules of the event... I suppose if this person decided not to do the second loop of the swim, addressed their concern to the RD then and there, and asked permission to complete the bike and run I'd be less upset or really care. If the inability to complete the second loop is due to equipment, I'd like to see someone try to work it out. Wetsuit ripped? Strip it, hand it off to a volunteer, and swim. Goggles, see if you can bum a back-up somehow or swim head's up breaststroke. Part of what I have enjoyed in my limited exposure to long course is that a perfect day is rare. It's also about how you handle the things that don't go right.

2- Say this person comes out in one hour from the first swim loop and jumps on a bike. That's upper MOP for the whole swim. This may put them on course with a whole group of individuals of a separate skill level and could cause issues. Perhaps their cycling skills are worlds above the swimming skills, but maybe not. When the bike leg gets difficult at mile 90, is this person going to flag down SAG, ride back to transition, and jump on the run course?

As for grabbing hardware, I can't think in my mind how I would feel good about doing this. The medals aren't important to me but they say "finisher" on them. I couldn't call myself a finisher if I didn't actually do the event. So why grab a medal? May I have spent >$700 to do the event? Yep, and it's definitely part of the motivation to stick with it when it's difficult.

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I, personally, wouldn't take a medal if I didn't finish the full course. (but then, if they didn't hand them out as soon as I crossed the line, I wouldn't bother with them then either) I've done 2 branded 70.3's and have no idea where those finisher medals are. I think I have them "somewhere" but where? Who knows.

However, I don't know what challenges this person has faced just to get to the starting line, so if it's that important to them to have a memento that they were in the race at all, I'm not gonna judge. I'll give them mine, if they want it.

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What would your cutoff be? Would it be the same for 30 year old man as a 80 year old female?

It appears that everyone is dancing around the real question here . . . is it okay for them to get the M dot tattoo?

They can have the "M", but not the "dot"

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Yes it should be the same, as regardless of your age you have to travel the same distance (140.6) with the same time limits (17 hours). Lots of endurance races have time/distance requirements before you can even try to participate. It doesn't matter if youre a 65 year old woman or 25 year old man, you have to demonstrate you have the ability to safely undergo the distance that you want to sign up for.

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2x Deca-Ironman World Cup (10 Ironmans in 10 days), 2x Quintuple Ironman World Cup (5 Ironmans in 5 days), Ultraman, Ultra Marathoner, and I once did an Ironman.

They've got all the data. You could easily go through it and figure out who DNF'd Ironmans by crossing the finish line too late or at least finished the swim too late, and then go back and look at their most recent 70.3 times. Let's say they found that people that took too long to finish an Ironman swim nearly always swam the 70.3 in 1.5 hours (I'm just guesstimating times here). Then great - You can't register for Ironman X until you finish a 70.3 swim in under 1.5 hours.

And it could be a huge business. Ironman could sell slots in "qualifier swims" for $100 a pop where you can register for an Ironman after completing just a 2.4 mile swim under a certain time on a course they set up for the weekend at a local lake. Make them races! I would sign up for one. Just get people verified they can swim such a huge distance before you put them in with 2,000 other people and then crashing all over the place on their bikes because they are too exhausted to see straight.

Edit - I just looked at the registration page for our local 5k open water swim and you can't even register until you fulfill this requirement. And there's no bike or run after it. "In order to register for the 5k all participants must show proof they can swim a mile in 35min or less."

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Maybe they should use an asterisk for the dot on the m-dot tattoo after this race!

Person should be DQ'd and pulled before leaving T1.

Just to see example wise.

Oldest men and women at Challenge Roth last year

M70+ Age group.

2 Finishers. Both swam under 1h20

W65+

1 Finisher. Swam 1:21


What I don't want to see over time is the watering down of the event. Cut offs are there for a reason. Everyone knows them before we start. If you have a complete disaster and are outside a cut off, be that swim, bike or run. Then you have to be able to cope with it. It's hard, but you will always come out stronger from failure than success.

You can ALWAYS come back. It's not a once in a lifetime thing.

Still cheating, whether they “self-DQ”, which doesn’t sound like what happened here, or run through the finish, get the finisher pic, medal and hat. Sounds like the typical rationalization of cheaters everywhere “ not cheating, just wanted to experience the feeling etc”. Had a rough 1st loop on the swim = meet reality. I very much a mid/back packer, have had some rough swims. It never entered my mind in any way to think, I will just cut the course.

If I sound harsh, well cheaters are always going to cheat, no real impact on me. But since you asked, nope, not Ok with the cheater mentality.

Absolutely cheating and should not go past the swim. Should have tried to do that 2nd lap, perhaps it got faster. But no way they keep going after missing a cutoff, and going through the finish line and getting a "finisher" shirt and medal is really bad form too..

I mean you can not care what this person does, but doesn't make it right. Cutoffs are there for a reason, so to skip one is blatant cheating plain and simple...

If you can’t do an IM swim in 2hrs, with a wetsuit, you shouldn’t be doing IM’s.

Tough one. I did my first last year and although I knew I could swim the distance with time in hand, there are more factors in play on the day.

I trained hard for 24 weeks, paid for the race, flights for me and the family, hotels, coach fares etc. If I would have blown the race by an ill-timed cramp or panic attack, I would have been devastated for myself and my family.

If it had happened to me, I would have liked to continue but would not go down the chute or pick up any swag. At least I would have gotten more out of the day and the family would get to see me on the course and not back at the hotel at 8am!

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Yeah this.

I'm not anally retentive about this, but cutting a loop because you're going to make the cut-off opens up a can of worms. You had a situation at the worlds in Australia a few years ago where a lot of people "mistakenly" missed a 2nd small loop that was a loop of the main bike course. I'm not sure how many did it, at least 20, none of whom declared it upon dismounting or post race. It was left to the RD to go through the results and look at the anomolies. I think people feigned ignorance, but when your bike computer shows distance that is well short, surely you'd know... It needs to be a black and white rule, no grey area other wise it just becomes a clusterfuck. What if did 1 swim lap, then overtook people on the bike who'd done the correct distance.

The friend should've stashed some swim fins in the water then ditched them just before the end of the swim. If done correctly this moral conundrum you speak of ceases to exist

No, I would not be ok with it. Many courses will let you complete the race if you come in after the swim cutoff (IM FLA, Alcatraz), but give you a DNF.

Not to mention if you skip the second loop you may put volunteers and the RD at risk trying to find out if/where you are still in the water, in trouble, etc. I know the timing chip would say you entered T1 but you never know how that's really communicated

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the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning

If they cut the course and cross the finish line, they are cheating scum pure and simple. If they DNF the swim but continue for a long training day without crossing the finish line, it is a technical foul that is between them and WTC.

Absolutely no way anyone should do something like this.

First lap was slow? Grit your teeth and pick up the pace on the second lap! Still miss the 2:20 cutoff (which is very lenient)? Better work some more on your swim before your next IM.

The RD is putting on a race, not a training session.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Finman 2.0

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2x Deca-Ironman World Cup (10 Ironmans in 10 days), 2x Quintuple Ironman World Cup (5 Ironmans in 5 days), Ultraman, Ultra Marathoner, and I once did an Ironman.

So, I normally don't care about stuff like that. You do you...
BUT...
This guy QUIT!
He didn't even try.
When I did my first 70.3, I was limping along (later diagnosed with a stress fracture) but I didn't quit. My time sucked, but I finished.

This guy didn't even try. He just quit.
And for that.... No, what he did was wrong.

And still deserving of an M-dot tattoo as well...

There are races where it has been explicitly stipulated in the rules ahead of time that:

If someone misses an intermediate bike cut-off on a multi-lap course they will not be allowed to continue riding but may complete the run if they’d like. They are DQd or DNFd, of course.

I don’t know if there are rules in the WTC rule book that address the OP’s situation directly, but I think that in the same way someone can finish what remains of the race and can even cross the line at the end, but they should not collect hardware or ever claim that they finished the race.

Of course it's still cheating. You either do the full course or you don't. Period!

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Had this at a local sprint tri

Got a mechanical on the bike - unable to fix it on the side of the road.

Ended up getting a lift in the back of a truck to t2. Self declared dnf to the marshals. Did the 5k run after just to salvage something from the day even though i skipped half the bike.

I think there is a big moral difference between making the most of a shitty situation and deliberately cheating to make a cutoff...

 

i have done this in a cyclocross race. broke main bike and pit bike on first 2 laps. asked if i could grab a wheel from my car and keep racing and dq myself at finish. no problem. got the last 30 mins of intensity in, pulled off at the finish, thanked the organizer, all was fine.

In one of my first triathlons i got really bad cramp in my foot and was struggling to swim. A lifeguard pulled me out of the lake and took me back to swim exit. I explained the situation to an official and asked if i could continue the race, he agreed, and i completed it, but was subsequently DQ'd. My conscience is clear, i don't think i cheated, i didn't even officially finish the race.

I did have an opportunity to cheat though, they took me to the swim exit, and i was arriving around the same time as the swim leaders, i could have easily joined them going into T1, and out on the bike, and i don't think anyone would have ever known.

Something that doesn't seem to have been mentioned. Closed course or not?

Closed course - you 'win' the right to be on there by finishing each segment within the cut off, otherwise you can't continue.

Open course. Take your race number and timing chip off and pedal for your life, nothing to stop you.

Of course it's cheating if it's against the rules. The question is whether it's just cheating oneself, or everyone.

I've only had one real disaster of a race. Early last year I did a race (non-standard but a bit tougher than a typical 70.3). The swim was the root of the problem I think. I hadn't been doing much swimming in the lead up but should have been okay. On the day, I swam considerably slower than usual and felt awful. It was a relatively small but a strong field. I'm used to finishing in the top half, I came out of the water second last. It was two 1km loops and I already felt awful after the first. The leaders were already heading for their bikes when I ran across the beach and back into the water. The bike had a turnaround and a very aggressive cut-off time, not aided by a strong headwind on the outbound leg. I passed a handful on the bike but still missed the turnaround cut-off, by about 2 minutes. I asked the offical at the turn if I could finish the race and he said yes, so long as the sweep car didn't catch up to me I could continue but I wouldn't be included in official results. That was fine with me. I carried on, still feeling awful for the remainder of the bike, managed to overtake a couple more cyclists and stayed ahead of the sweep car. I started the run and did half the first loop of a 3 loop course before severe knee pain forced me to walk. I still started the second loop, hoping to get moving again but already knowing the result would be a disaster no matter what happened. By the far end of the second loop I was limping badly and just about made it back to the turn for the finish line but with one lap not done. I took the turn, got cheered as I approached the finish, which I found very embarrassing, and then I stepped to the side and walked down the outside of the finish chute to find some friends I knew would be waiting at the line. A volunteer still chased me with a medal which I politely refused.

I could have skipped the second lap of the swim, though it might have been obvious. I could have turned early on the bike route, which would have been easy and probably wouldn't have been seen. I could have taken a short cut on the return leg on the bike rather than do the very substantial 10km+ climb with nearly 1000m of ascent. I could have stopped on the first lap of the run rather than the second and could have pretended I'd finished as I went down the finish chute. It's unlikely anyone would have noticed. My training buddy who I regularly beat was already finished having done the full distance, by the time I reached the line having cut it short. I only stopped early because I was worried I'd damage my knee further if I didn't. I only continued because I was permitted. I only went to the finish because I had to meet people. I was kinda proud of hanging on as long as I possibly could despite a truly horrendous day that I have never been able to explain.

If you risk missing the swim cutoff, try anyway and see what happens. If it's so bad your safety may be at risk - pull out. If you can't make it all the way, go as far as you can....within the rules. Making a calculation and deciding to move onto part 2 without finishing part 1 is a different thing entirely.

I've come across an athlete who started ~20 ironmans and never finished, often didn't have a bike time. There are some really stubborn people.

I work for a multisport company and in every event we have people that can not or do not finish the swim... sometimes bike for whatever reason. Freak out in their wetsuit, snap their rear derailleur off, many reasons why people don't complete these two legs... we will give them the option to "finish" if they'd like but DQ them. As long as they're DQ'd I'm fine with them doing whatever... they paid, trained, etc. so I'm all for them getting part of the experience they were hoping for.

If that person were doing one of our events, we'd want them to tell us what they'd done, we'd let them keep their chip and continue the race so they'd get their splits, etc. but would be DQ'd from the race.

This happened at Cedar Point 140.6 a few years ago, the water was really rough, and they were pulling swimmers left and right. As an observer, I thought it was nice they were letting them continue the event after being pulled. It pissed my wife off as a competitor, because (having finished the swim), she didn't know the girl she was racing against for a podium was a DQ because she didn't finish the swim.

I would agree with this...or the other mechanical failure posts.

You officially DQed BEFORE you continued. Asked. Ran it by the directors. Gave them the situation. You still "raced" at speed and didn't just diddle daddle. Go for it.

In theory, is this any different than starting a race knowing you will not/can not complete the run? I know a fair number of racers that look at it as a long training day since they’ve paid for it already. Why is it any different if it is the swim?

You’re a douche canoe if you take the medal though.

can someone post this same question on LetsRun?

I want to see the epic roasting that will unfold

Says who?

BQs also come into play [example: Mike Rossi]

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
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It's different because you only skip your chosen section of the race and then continue with the rest of it. It's retiring from a component but remaining on the course. That's not the same as retiring from the race and leaving the course which is what happens if you don't finish the run. If you started the run and went all out in the knowledge you weren't going all the way, it would potentially interfere with others but the impact is minor compared to someone skipping and continuing.

In theory, is this any different than starting a race knowing you will not/can not complete the run?//

That is called Aquabike, they have a division for that...

yeah. I don't really care about this much at all. I suppose this is mainly an issue on a race with a more than 1 loop for the swim. So not sure how many races it would be. I thought Rev3 would allow you to continue if you got pulled from the swim but maybe I'm wrong about that. As long as they DQ themselves let them finish. I just don't care. Just like I don't care if a 70.3 finish gets an M-dot tattoo.

I really couldn't care less.

Enjoy your bike ride, have fun on the run.

Hell, even run through the shoot and enjoy the cheering if you really want.

But at the very least, you should go over to the officials afterwards and request a DQ.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

It drives me nuts when someone “races” me for a 25 when I am in the middle of a swim workout. So while my gut tells me your wife should just get over it, I see where she is coming from, especially in a race.

What about when the guy (because let’s face it, a women would never be so stupid) races the lead runner from the side of the road!

I believe this also happened in 2012 at the "epic" and last St. George Ironman. I finished the swim but there were hundreds that didn't and I'm pretty sure I heard the next day that they got to continue w/race director's permission, albeit, DQ'd.

Or another tattoo, althogether

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

No debate on the DQ. I have DQ'd 6&7 year olds for missing the wall on a flip turn... it's not the 49 or 99 metre Backstroke.


I wouldn't label the kid a cheater as this is an honest mistake but they are being DQd.

Your person in the story is a cheater. They should have attempted the 2nd lap and took their lumps if they missed the cut off.

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Don't start until you are under 1:45 in the pool ...

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

I guess I do not fully understand.

How would you NOT get caught every single time?

Are you telling me someone could swim a first lap of say...1:02...and just skip the second with no one the wiser?

If you're a MOP to BOP'er I can see getting away with it.

IM with a two loop swim, start late in the rolling start, swim slowly, get out with the mid packers, carry on. No one is going to pay attention or examine the splits of someone going 15:XX

Even if you got out with the 1:00 level, and went on to an 8 hour bike and 5-6 hour run, who's gonna look at that?

Proof of time has been around in swimming for decades. Pretty easy to do now with online results.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Yeah, but what if you get out with a 1:01 and a 4:30 bike and a 3:05 run? If they don't catch you on the spot...

I guess the question would be...is it harder to swim a 1:27 pace for 4200 or 2:54 pace for 2100....

Slowtwitch to the rescue, although those splits would not raise an eyebrow unless someone looked at past swim times. 1:01 is not blazing fast but it's up there. ETA - It would be easy to suss out, but point is there would need to be some other reason, other than splits, to suspect and cause one to go into prior races

You have to start somewhere and regardless of time/money or emotional investment you have on an event - cutting the course is cutting the course. I do call that cheating - if you cant do the length in its entirety than try again and learn from the last experience.

if you cant do the length in its entirety than try again and learn from the last experience. //

Or how about this novel idea, go and do shorter races starting with sprints, work your way up to 1/2 distance, and once mastered(at your level) move onto doing an ironman distance race. I think it is criminal that coaches let their athletes do an ironman for their first, or first few triathlons. Doesn't make any sense...

I think the best solution here is to hold them back until 2:20 has passed for their wave, allow them to get out on the course at that time and then enforce the bike cut off time with impunity. If they miss the swim because of something give them a pass (once) but if the bike portion falls short, pull them and DQ/DNF them. I would also say that this should be an exception not a rule so 10 people can't get this exemption on the day.

I agree if they can't make the cut off it's probably not a good indication that they are in the proper shape to participate. The bike leg cut off would validate that and seeing as the run is the toughest on the body, probably not a good idea to let them out there to complete that.

In the end of the day it may also be the catalyst for them to start their Triathlon fire burning for their next shot at Ironman. I'd prefer we keep as many people in the sport as possible vs reject those who are new or out of shape from the sport.

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

I don't like getting all caught up in whether someone is a "cheater" or not. That's a really loaded term for the facts you described. Nevertheless, I'd understand the race director wanting DQ's and DNF's off the course ASAP. And, no, I don't think the person should run through the shute, and take the medal and finisher's hat. They didn't finish.

Monty - you are absolutely correct! I started thinking about this and thought how did I do my first 140.6 (+/- 5%)

I started off as racing bikes as a Junior and then raced collegiate and then during college I did the hardest thing in my life (at the time, Olympic triathlon) and then progressed from there - before I even signed up for my first 140.6 I probably had 5-6 oly, 4-5 sprints and 2 70.3 under my belt.

I was asked by a friend a few months ago about how to do the full 140.6 and I told them 2 years of training up to it - I should have read this thread in its entirety or stated my answer better.

Lets say I worked up to the 140.6 but didn't make the cut off - that's when my let the learned experience come in.

In my mind you are insane to just go and do a 140.6, the distance needs respect and worked up too.

I guess i dont really see a scenario where an ironman participant cant expect to finish the swim under the cutoff time unless something ridiculous occurs like the cutoff time NOT starting from when the last participant hits the water, I could see a later wave having 2h20m from the first elite wave being a little sketchy at larger events though

If you're not a good swimmer dont do a full, I see no reason why an able-bodied competitor couldnt finish the swim in 1h40 or so, assuming kicked in the face, panic attack, and sighting issues all happen at the same time

Perhaps if the individual is disabled in some fashion thats another story

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//Noob triathlete//bike commuter//ex-swimmer//slower than you

I would say about 1/3 of triathletes cheat, if given the opportunity. It's part of human nature. I would bet that same person that cuts the course, also cheats at work, cheats at school, cheats his spouse. etc. If you are that 1/3 out there then you will find a way to rationalize what you do. However, you are only cheating yourself. Don't be that guy or girl. Hold yourself to a high standard. Because at the end of the day, YOU have to live with the knowledge you cheated yourself.

You mean 1m45s for a single 100m, average over race distance, or what?

I'm an awful swimmer by triathlete standards. I'd be pushed to do 1m45s for a single 100m effort.

I swam 1h28m in my first IM which put me nowhere near the back and nowhere near missing the cut-off. That's an average pace of 2m19s/100m if I'm not mistaken. Yes it was a wetsuit swim which helped, but I don't think that saved me half an hour do you?

...and I've done several 70.3 and shorter races. Came nowhere near the cutoff in any of them.

I think he meant 1 hour 45 min to complete the swim.

look at the IMTX bike course...it is higher than 33%

I'm in the 1:45/100m avg and definitely awful by this forum's standards. But I'm well ahead of cutoff points at any of the distances. I think a lot of MOP and below prepare the least for the swim. My goal for the HIM/IM swim is just to be fit enough where I'm not coming out of the water exhausted and hopefully be somewhere in the MOP. I definitely feel like a lot of BOP swimmers tend to just slog away in the pool just swimming a bunch of laps without any intensity. And if their technique is poor that makes for a tough IM swim. Maybe one day I'll decide it's worth it to invest a bunch of time in an off season to improve on the swim.

That would be slightly more reasonable but is still suggesting you need a hell of a big buffer. I swim as fast in open water as in the pool. And faster if I'm in a wetsuit. I don't think that's unusual. Why would I need such a big buffer?

Seems like most of the opining is on a swim cut short. So glad I'm a swimmer and that would never be an issue. I could backstroke - hell, sidestroke, fast enough. But I am one of those who just sucks at running for so many reasons. If I walk to my car instead of finishing the second lap of a run, or just walk to my car instead of the finish line, that wouldn't be okay? Still a DNF. Still cut short just like the swimmers who "have no business doing an IM." I think it is a bigger burden on the race to get swept. Just self-DNF/DQ. Well... I guess I'd need to go get my bike/stuff from transition so walking to my car would just be a temporary rest. You get the point.

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Hillary Trout
San Luis Obispo, CA

Your trip is short. Make the most of it.
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Just replying to the end of the thread....

I don't give a shit about someone being on the course who paid to be there, even though they cut swim/bike/run or whatever. The only thing I'd care about would be "taking a time". If you screw up and you know it, then self-report after the race, so the RD can have "accurate" results for all qualified finishers. Keep your number on, keep your timing chip on---so the race officials know you are on the course or have crossed the finish line.

Just self-report, and I'm all good.


Run down the finishing chute. Get your picture taken, take your cap/shirt/medal. I really don't care---as far as I'm concerned, those were paid for with the entry fee. I wouldn't take, wear, or display one that I didn't "earn." but, that's just my ethos.

1H45 for 3800m ... 2:43/100m

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___________________________________________
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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

It’s a race, not a day out training, if you can’t complete a leg of the race you shouldn’t be out there.

Should or should not has no meaning. They DID pay, and they ARE out there. Their "intent" is irrelevant. If they want to treat it as a "supported" training day, and don't want to "race"...I really don't care, and I don't see why I should.

Run down the finishing chute. Get your picture taken, take your cap/shirt/medal. I really don't care---as far as I'm concerned, those were paid for with the entry fee.//

Actually they were not paid for, as when that person entered the race he agreed to the set of cutoffs for each course. He paid to race under those guidelines and failed to meet up with the very first one. We get it you dont care, but for someone that doesn't care you seem to have a very strong opinion. I do care about the volunteers that have to stay overtime, the aid stations that have to remain open, and the schedule that gets all fucked up by not adhering to cutoff times. Other people are involved in these decisions and not just this one person. And if you are ok with them cutting the course, what about the bike or run courses too. Get a little tired, skip a loop on the bike, can't make the run, just turn around early, or get a taxi?? Is that what you are advocating should be allowed because you dont really care??


And there are usually 10% or so no shows who also dont get their medals, finishers shirts, and whatever other swag you get at the finish. Did they pay for all that too with their check only, or do that actually have to show up and race like everyone else??

So, the finishing medals/schwag aren't baked into the entry price?

The last race I did (A local Oly)...they handed out the schwag at check-in the day before the race. The only thing at the finish line was the medal.





The only strong opinion I have is that: Someone who wants to be ranked with the race finishers adhere to the rules of the race. If they don't want to be ranked (and self-report to timing and scoring), then its no skin off my nose (as a racer) what they do.






That's a different question than the one that was posed. The incident in question was NOT staying out on the course PAST the cutoff, but rather cutting the swim short to avoid being in the water past the cutoff. This person did not cause any schedule to get all fucked up. But, to answer your question:


I don't have a problem with the RD sweeping up people on course (swim, bike, or run) at their respective cutoffs. Especially the swim, because I get that the kayakers may have other things to do...and you can't just leave someone in the water.



The taxi comment is a bit hyperbolic...but, (as stated above) as long as someone withdraws from the ranked results, their machinations to stay within the course cutoff times don't offend me.

Again, I get that there are lots of issues with people staying on course PAST CUTOFF---permits, volunteers, safety, etc. But, this question was NOT THAT.

Look, if they take a time on the timesheet, they are cheating. Period. No question about it. *I* just like every other honest racer...I take a very dim view of that.

There are a lot of people out there who just seem to want to be "participants", not "racers". Possibly more than racers. Should that piss me off? It doesn't.

Is there a venue for these personality types to "participate in a triathlon"...eg, an MS-70.3? Not that I know of.

Maybe that could be solved by a "non-racer" entry class.

last year at IMWI I had mechanical issues on the bike and had to limp it back to transition after one loop. I went out and did the run course because I felt like if I was going to DNF i wanted to cover as many miles as I could anyway. I emailed the RD that night and volunteered the DNF or DQ. I will be back this year.

I didn't consider it cheating, i was just making the best of a shitty situation. The RD didn't either as I was very upfront about it.

The taxi comment is a bit hyperbolic.//

In one of the very first Kona races I did, a guy took a taxi and finished 10th( I believe he was a lawyer). And didn't Rosie Ruiz take a taxi (or was it subway) to win the Boston marathon?? Probably happens more than we know, actually I know it happens more than we know...(-; I guess their only transgressions for you was that they actually finished the race and took a place? Ok, mine go just a bit deeper than that...

You DO understand that you're describing two situations that do not fall into the same scenario that Tom_hampton is describing, right?

Under his clear statements, he would have just as much of a problem with Rosie and Mr. Lawyer Guy as you have. If they had self-reported their cheating and gotten themselves taken off the results sheet, he wouldn't have a problem with it. Since they didn't do that, I would bet dollars to donuts that Tom_hampton would be right with you complaining about their cheating (had he been there).

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''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

I guess you missed this part of my post:

I guess their only transgressions for you was that they actually finished the race and took a place? Ok, mine go just a bit deeper than that...

It all comes down to ethics, integrity, and honesty. These things are at the very top of my list when evaluating a person. They are pervasive in how a person conducts their life. I don't find that people compartmentalize their cheating (or honesty/integrity). If you lie/cheat/steal in one aspect, it is probably in most/all aspects of your life.

I know lots of people who will do "anything at work to get ahead" but are allegedly "perfectly nice people" outside of work. I am not capable of separating the two, and will NOT socialize with these types of people.

So, when you say "only transgression", I actually consider that a VERY SEVERE transgression. And I refuse to associated with those that do.

But, if someone says, "I'm just here to try my best and have some fun, please don't rank me. Y'all go race, save me a beer." I'm perfectly cool with them being on the course with me, and will be happy to hand them a beer when they cross the finish line.

ETA: I'd also be happy to laugh with them when they explain why their swim went to shit, and how they came out of the water after the first loop and said "fuck it, I guess I'm not racing this one!".

No. I didn't miss it. Based on the rest of your post, it seemed like you just didn't give it any credence.

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''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

If they know after half the swim they won't make the cutoff, odds are they didn't train for many months.

Why pay $800 then? just do a free training day.

Rules of entry are pretty clear with the cut offs. Cutting a course and finishing the other legs cheapens the sport, you paid for a race, not a training session, no matter your time goals. Idiots should train more and respect the distance or do the honourable thing, dnf and try again next year.

I wouldn't, and obviously neither would you.

But, maybe some people do it to be with a group. Or maybe they do it to be "supported". I don't know. People do all kinds of crazy shit I don't understand.

The question was asked, "is it still cheating..." and that sort of morphed into "how do you feel about it, if..."

I gave my answer, and have clarified its basis. I wasn't (and still am not) trying to convince you or Monty or anyone else that my feelings on the matter are the one-true-way. Nor would I begin to attempt to explain someone else's behavior which I can't even relate to.

I think the "cheapens the sport" horse was let out of the barn a loooong time ago---when someone saw large dollar signs associated with a "brand". No one is putting that genie back in the bottle (to mix metaphors).

I could care less about swag and brag. I don’t want that person out there jeopardizing my safety, others’ safety, and their own safety. There’s a reason the cutoffs are rules.

how is someone cutting a loop off the swim jeopardizing anyone's safety?

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I could actually see some sort of argument for making some sort of allowance for aborting part of the swim since it's the discipline where someone attempting a distance or pace they may not be able for may be endangering themselves.
People aren't always very sensible during a race. If someone knows they're in trouble part way through the swim, they may still continue when they should stop. I would be okay with a solution like that suggested earlier where the competitior waits at T1 until the cut-off time elapses before heading out on the bike. Obviously it would be a DQ. Perhaps take their number but leave them with the chip so that others will know they're no longer competing.

I agree that people need to respect the distance and be race ready for 140.6 miles of racing before they start.

I've seen the same at a 70.3 last summer though. Watching the swim start from the beach, lovely flat sea, almost perfect swimming conditions: 1 guy swims out 30metres, turns around and swims back to the beach. Game over. Another guy i see being brought back in by a kayak after 200metres. I mean FFS - don't these people train at all?

One time I got some food poisoning the day before IM, speculative start to see if I could "jog it in", made it about 400m out, threw up in the water, got dragged back to shore clinging onto a jetski (to the wild applause from the peanut gallery!), RD offered me medical assistance etc and then very kindly arranged for a free entry to the next years race. Probably should have stayed in bed, but freaking great outcome with a free entry to the next years race.

Andy G

Cutoffs are there for many reasons... "safety" in regards to athletes doing what exactly? I worry more about mid packers honestly from experience.. but safety and events happen to everyone.

I work for a large race/event company and we let athletes continue and "finish" if they can't complete the swim or bike course for a number of reasons.

Safety can be an issue for anybody... that's a lot of peoples responsibility... the athlete first then the support... officers at intersections, volunteers, race staff, course design, etc.

We've had a race leader in an Oly on a hot/humid day with heatstroke like symptons we had to get a squad to stat. Ran off course screaming like a lion was chasing him with a thousand yard stare... scary. Had the race leader on the bike adjust his front brake and mangle his hand, remove a few spokes. He did not finish the event... but stuff happens to people all over the spectrum of racers. People we pull off the course for not hitting cut offs for the most part are physically okay, they're just not "fast", tettering on dehydration, etc.

I digress, they (meaning people that don't do the whole course on purpose because they can't for whatever reason) are subject to cutoff times and are DQ'd from the event but get splits, can run down the finisher chute, get a medal, enjoy athlete food/drink, etc. People are in this sport for many reasons.. compete, have fun, prove something to themselves, supported training day... if they pay their money I'm going to do all I can to help them along the way.

People cutting the course to win or better their position is a whole other subject... I'm definitely not supportive of that.