I'm a bit of a stickler for rules when they affect the performance of the athlete, however if I was the CU athlete then I would of just simply told the athlete before the race started. Regardless, I think USAT needs to look at it a different way. If something is called into question then the review and appropriate penalty should fall onto everyone. The enforcement of some rules in my experience is too arbitrary.

---

---

Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset

Why are we not enforcing the rule in advance of the competition on all of the athletes? I was there, counted at least 20 in sleeved suits and thought nothing of it. But because CU came in third, they decide to complain. Fairness in applying rules here, if USAT on race day let's someone race without the correct equipment that's on the Officials and not on the athlete. Especially considering time constraints for publication of "new rules".

Them's the Rules is not a good response.

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

https://www.teamusa.org/...ubs/collegiate-clubs

These are the UST Collegiate Competitive rules which the commissioners give to us every year and tell us to follow.

Section 5.2 has the uniform rules.

5.2.1. All athletes racing on behalf of their club must wear an official club uniform from the start to finish of the race.
5.2.2. The school’s name, nickname, or initials must appear on the club’s uniform and must be the largest and most prominent lettering or image on the uniform.
5.2.3. Uniforms may be unzipped during competition; however the school’s name or initials must remain prominently displayed on the front and back of torso.
5.2.4. Athletes who do not follow these standards during a race will receive a variable time penalty as defined in Section 3.7 of USAT Competitive Rules.
5.2.5. For Draft-Legal individual events, athletes must additionally follow the uniform guidelines of USAT Competitive Rules for draft-legal events.

The MTR is not an "individual event", it is a Mixed "Team" relay. Therefore it does not need to follow the USAT Competitive Rules for draft-legal events. My team president has asked about this rule before and was told by a commissioner that sleeves are allowed because the MTR does not follow the USAT Competitive Rules for draft legal events. I am sure we are not the only ones who were told that as several other teams had sleeves this weekend as well.

The rules that are passed out and we are told to follow should take precedent no?

By bringing politics into this, you ruined any point you might have made.

---

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

The rules that are passed out and we are told to follow should take precedent no?

-----

That's a good question. But if they made new rules 24 days AND included in the pre-race meeting, you better know the rules of the race. So when you tell me that you knew at most 24 days prior and at worse 24 hours before the event that said uniform is now not allowed- you can't then complain that the officials error'd in the application of the rules.

So what I was trying to have a discussion over is that, in this case the rules weren't "improperly" applied that you ended your comments with. You guys were put in a tough situation and error'd and got called on it.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

1. I am not on Queens.
2. The point of what I just shared is that those rules (written 24 days before the race) should NOT apply to the MTR. The Collegiate Competitive Rules make it clear that those rules only apply to the "Individual" draft-legal race. Saying that something is a rule in a meeting, does not make it correct.

Appropriate penalty.


It's a shame when an athlete gets a DQ when an appropriate penalty could be a time penalty.

As smart as almost everyone is on ST, it probably wouldn't take ten minutes to calculate the benefit of those sleeves and to add the seconds to their time. Some wouldn't even have to calculate it as for them it would be common knowledge. Why can't officials do what STers do daily?

While not a tragedy, I think the result sucks.

---

Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

Read page 1. I said this falls squarely on the officials not doing a good job when athletes check in pre-race. Every DL athlete that races has to have their equipment checked and that includes uniform. Now I'm going to say that because it's collegiate triathlon and so many apparently were unaware of the rules and the new updated sleeve rule, most just went with it. And it sounds like the officials checking the athletes did the same. Again the officials before every ITU race are there to HELP the athletes. If they see something wrong, they *usually* tell the athlete to fix it before allowed into the "field of play". But again I think the relaxed "collegiate" atmosphere that is in play here also was an circumstance, but when the officials feet were put to the fire with the protest- they then followed the rule book.


I think a lot of fault is in play here on all parties- and moving forward we as a collegiate club sport need a much easier stream lined uniform requirement (in my mind if it has your college logo it should be allowed assuming it's the normal tech material, etc). As I said most athletes get 1 uniform a year, to then change the rules 1 month before the event is kinda "doh" moment. But as to how the rules were applied in this circumstance- the officials didn't error here. They followed protocol pretty much to a T.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

2. The point of what I just shared is that those rules (written 24 days before the race) should NOT apply to the MTR. The Collegiate Competitive Rules make it clear that those rules only apply to the "Individual" draft-legal race. Saying that something is a rule in a meeting, does not make it correct.

------

A couple of things...But did it say that it would apply in the MTR? In those pre-race meetings, I'm always the "questioning" coach that brings up ANYTHING that I want clarification on. Of course our team (NC State who's in Queens conference) who was signed up for the MTR didn't race it and our top 3 athletes didn't end up going so I didn't go to the event this year to save the team money.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Seriously,

Do these teams feel like they "won" becase this team had sleeves and perhaps shouldnt?.....they didnt win, they got beat by the team with sleeves.....as an univolved person I dont look at the official results on this one to see who won....

and the guy that racked his bike wrong also won.......ridiculous petty enforcement of the rules...

For The Record-In regards to sleeves on MTR, I do have photographic evidence of at least one athlete on my phone. Snapped only about 10 of the race...and it was not a Queen's University athlete.

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Oh I have no doubt a bunch wore them. Again the MTR is a mix of "elite" athletes and a bunch of random not very fast athletes just out there having a good time. It's really really hard to get lapped out of an MTR and I cant even remember if they even have the lap out rule in the MTR for this particular event. Most MTR squads are just out there "having a good time" where I'm guessing about 10-12 programs are actually "racing" it.

I'm highly educated guessing here but USAT likely "needs" Queens to be successful in terms of it's HP ITU pathway (ETA: And no I dont mean giving them wins or turning blind eye to regulations). It really truly is turning into an "training squad" on a college campus. That's a good thing especially on the men's side because of the lack of pathways for the men other than the "podium project" (but as I said that's only on a yearly basis take likely 1-2 athletes, it cant be the exclusive feeder program). Here at NC State where I coach or at Colorado or any uni- they could basically "give scholarships" however it wants essentially. But only Queens is doing this pathway that supports both the men and women.

I think with that being said what's the saying "with great leadership comes great responsibility"- This probaly needs to apply to a bunch of parties here.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

What is brought up in the pre-race meeting is irrelevant. The Collegiate Competitive Rules state that ONLY the "Individual" draft legal event, needs to follow those rules (aka no sleeves). The MTR does not. So you can bring it up all you want in the meetings, but that doesn't mean the Collegiate Competitive Rules can be overruled with some other set of rules.

The USAT Collegiate Competitive Rules also state "5.2.4. Athletes who do not follow these standards during a race will receive a variable time penalty"

You make a good point.

---

---

Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset

The MTR does not.

---------

Draft-Legal Mixed Team Relay
USA Triathlon will continue the 4-person Draft Legal Mixed Team Relay in 2019.
There will be 75 mixed team relay teams available; accommodating participation of 220 athletes. Each team will be comprised of two females and two males from the same collegiate team. This event is DRAFT-LEGAL and will follow draft legal triathlon rules.



5.7. The Collegiate Club National Championships will consist of the following events: 5.7.1. Draft-Legal Sprint 5.7.1.1. Sprint to Olympic distance draft-legal event (750-1500m swim / 20-40km bike / 5-10km run). 5.7.1.2. Conducted in accordance with USAT Competitive Rules for draft-legal events. 5.7.1.3. Athletes must race on compliant road bicycles for draft-legal events as outlined in USAT rules. 5.7.2. Non-Draft Olympic 5.7.2.1. Olympic distance non-drafting triathlon with multiple waves. 5.7.2.2. No maximum number of entrants per club if transition area space permits. 5.7.2.3. Conducted in accordance with USAT Competitive Rules for non-elite events. 5.7.2.4. Athletes must race on a traditional road or triathlon bicycle. Mountain bikes, hybrids, and cruisers are not permitted. 5.7.3. Mixed Team Relay 5.7.3.1. Draft-legal team relay event where each competitor in a club of 2 men and 2 women completes a (250-300m swim / 5-8km bike / 1.5-2km run) triathlon then tags clubmate. 5.7.3.2. Maximum of 1 relay team per Collegiate Club. 5.7.3.3. Conducted in accordance with USAT Competitive Rules for draft-legal club relay events.


ETA: It looks to me that they are saying the DL individual event has it's own uniform code. And then it's saying the MTR will follow the draft legal rules (which includes the specific uniforms). The uniform section only comments on individual draft legal, but then in the MTR it is using the DL competitive rules. So I would *assume* if an uniform isn't allowed in the individual race, it also likely wouldn't be allowed in the MTR. And again the MTR is made up of 75 teams many of which have no clue or guidance with many of these rules. Most of the MTR is "participant" based athletes.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So we are just going to ignore the section that specifically talks about uniforms and states they only need to be followed for the individual events? And ignore that the commissioners have been telling us all that sleeves are okay? Clearly that is how they interpret it. And I believe they wrote the rules.

And great, i'm glad you pointed that out. Can you find me those rules? I have found a "Check-list" document that changes with every single race. I have found the USAT Competitive Rules, but no document called "USA Triathlon Competitive Rules for Draft Legal Events." And in the USAT Competitive Rules, there is no mention of MTR or uniforms.

https://draftlegalrules.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/2019collegiateathletechecklist.pdf

No we aren't going to ignore the rules. I think because they speak to specifically to each event is why you can't use a sleeved suit in the MTR (when it says it will follow DL rules). That's how I read it. You and others read it differently. And then the officials read it how they read it.


There's a lot of things that need to be clarified and I think will moving forward.


You asked for the rules of DL events that USAT follows: Here they are in full:

https://www.triathlon.org/...ry/competition_rules

https://www.triathlon.org/...tegory/uniform_rules

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So we are going to ignore the USAT Collegiate Competitive Rules > Reference the USAT Rules for Draft Legal Racing (which don't seem to exist) or they at least reference a third set of rules? And that 3rd set of rules is what we are going by?

So for USAT Collegiate Club Nationals, ITU Competition Rules take precedent over the Collegiate Competitive Rules developed specifically for this event? The USAT Collegiate Competitive Rules make not mention of the ITU Competition rules anywhere.

What I'm telling you and have shown you is that no matter what pathway of rules you go by, any DL event doesnt allow sleeved trisuits. If you can show me where it says "MTR allows sleeved trisuits", I'll be with you.

Just show me that. Show me where MTR allows sleeved tri suits.

Because I can show you how sleeved tri suits aren't allowed in DL and I can also show you that the MTR for this particular event follows the "standard" DL rules that every USAT event has ever done DL races by.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

If your a collegiate racer I think this proves that they need to work on the clarity of the rulebook so we don't have this issue. So push for your team and conference to make some pretty immediate recommendations to discuss these changes overall. This is a terrible way to lose a championship and to win a title. Queens SMOKED the competition and even if they served a penalty for the infraction, they'd have easily won.

Queens asst coach and/or athlete is our conference's commissioner so I'm sure they'll be wanting this addressed for future races. I'd have zero issue with allowing any uniform for collegiate racing in any race. So non-draft uniform works for DL uniform which would work for MTR. I just think whatever they decide, they stick to it and don't "add" any additional rulings so close to an event.

ETA: With that, I'm signing off. Not much else to discuss.

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Last point:

Here is the MTR slideshow at the pre-race meeting. Starts at 25:14.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jYzJO5GqEU


The key here is that the MTR athletes were not required to go to the individual draft-legal race meeting where they did mention the sleeves rule. They were only required to go to the MTR meeting the next day. You can see the slide starting at 25:14 for that event. No mention of uniforms whatsoever. I figured because the same rules did not apply, as is suggested in the USAT Collegiate Competitive Rules.

Since Jack did not race the individual draft legal race, I would assume he only went to the MTR meeting.

I showed you where is said that ONLY THE INDIVIDUAL EVENT had to follow the USAT Draft Legal Uniform Rules. When it says only one event, that automatically means NOT the other events.

Again, the commissioners have specifically referenced this rule and told teams they can wear sleeves.

The critical part is that I can show you in the same rule book that you keep mentioning how sleeves aren't allowed. Add in the fact that at the DL meetings they go over what uniform is and isn't allowed as well as the equipment that is and isn't allowed- it was no shock that they ruled against Queens. That's sorta the whole purpose of the "pre race" meeting(s). It's to go over the rules for said race, mention key rules- obviously they aren't going to go over every rule, but if they have an "uniform" slide and it says no sleeves allowed- it's a good indicator no sleeves are allowed.


Good luck next year if you are still in the collegiate scene!

---

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

In the MTR pre-race meeting they did not go over uniforms. That was only the draft legal meeting which was at a different time entirely. It was not on the slides.

You keep saying that nothing they say in these pre-race meetings matter - so what is the point for these meetings then? I have been to PLENTY of pre-race meetings where they go over specific course rules. For example, low speed zones or no-pass zones. These are RACE SPECIFIC rules. These rules aren't in any rule books, they are just making them up to keep the race safe. People get DQ'd for these rules. Lauren Brandon (I think it was her, could have been someone else though) got DQ'd for going too fast in a low speed zone - pretty crappy considering she probably lost out on a few thousand dollars for this.

If ANY (not just Queens) athlete was sitting in that MTR meeting, or even the DL meeting and heard something they didn't agree with or knew they would have an issue with then they should have asked and worked with USAT. For example, UMD had sleeved kits so before the DL or MTR they should have approached an official saying all they had were sleeved kits and I am sure USAT would have found a solution for them.

Also, I agree with B_Doughtie that the MTR is a DRAFT LEGAL race and therefore would follow DRAFT LEGAL rules. Is there a definition anywhere of "individual" versus "team" events? If not then I would say it is pretty obvious that the MTR is a DRAFT LEGAL race.