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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [wetswimmer99] [ In reply to ]
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Sleeved suits, no. Arm sleeves, apparently OK.

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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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Can we just address the elephant in the room here..

Colorado was butt hurt because they lost to a better team and got them DQed by technicality. It is poor sportsmanship. If they all raced butt ass naked, Colorado would have still lost and they know it.

hate to say it - but the rules are merky and gray and colorado won on a bullshit technicality and I no longer respect that team as a whole haha
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Twinkie wrote:
Can we just address the elephant in the room here..

Colorado was butt hurt because they lost to a better team and got them DQed by technicality. It is poor sportsmanship. If they all raced butt ass naked, Colorado would have still lost and they know it.

hate to say it - but the rules are merky and gray and colorado won on a bullshit technicality and I no longer respect that team as a whole haha

Mr(s). Twinkie,

Cal won.
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [dalava] [ In reply to ]
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dalava wrote:
Sleeved suits, no. Arm sleeves, apparently OK.


That is from WTS Edmonton, when it was cold AF... Again not sure USAT, but in terms of ITU, the Head Ref/TD always had the option to waive the no arm warmers rule /leg covering rule for extreme conditions... Now, arm warmers for AG racing are legal by default, and no longer require an exception, except during a non wetsuit swim... In the race pictured, it was definitely a wetsuit legal swim (if memory serves the swim was nearly cancelled because of the cold temps), so Summer's get up was kosher...

The content in race briefings are critical.... I've been at international championship events where decisions on rule enforcement had to be changed, based on briefing content that contradicted initial guidance... But all of this speaks to having clear and understandable rules...
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [wetswimmer99] [ In reply to ]
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wetswimmer99 wrote:


I should clarify, I’m not against rules per se, and not a proponent of an arms race (like that one?) but a collegiate level, club sport, should have the most liberal use of clothing rules, that are still part of triathlon rules in general, whether its DL, shortcourse, Longcourse, etc. Sleeves are allowable on longcourse, sleeveless on DL, combine the two clothing rules and allow both. If someone wants to rock less coverage, using a speedo or jammers, and that’s all they can afford, let them do that... if they want to show their naval, so what? I guess being in the sport for many years and seeing shortcourse to IM athletes win in all sorts of outfits over the decades, including Mark Allen dominating in speedo briefs and Paula Newby Fraser in two piece suits or Fernanda Keller with a Brazilian cut suit, frankly the different styles made the sport more laid back, and enjoyable.

I think making the sport more inclusive, more inviting to newcomers, and affordable at the collegiate level should be a primary objective of the rules, along with safety. When I was in college many moons ago, many triathletes also dabbled in cycling races, so our club uniform was basically a cycling skinsuit, with sleeves, and we raced bikes in it and did tris in them.


I'm with you.... relax the rules or make them a lot more clear. Otherwise if I were running a college tri program right now I'd move to just sleeveless kits... my eyes are rolling around my head reading through this thread and trying to figure out how clear/unclear it is or was. It shouldn't be this hard... it's a sleeve and honestly over the course of a super sprint... seconds... maybe.
Last edited by: xeon: Apr 12, 19 9:43
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [AJohnson] [ In reply to ]
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AJohnson wrote:
I think the biggest things is that everyone seems to be blaming each other for all this when we really should be blaming USAT for these rules that point in a million directions and are ambiguous as hell. I mean why are they adding rules to draftlegalrules.com just 24 days before the event and not having the commissioners share that with the teams? Why are they not properly following the protest/appeal procedures? Why did they not check the uniforms before the event like all other ITU events if they are going to impose those same rules? Why did they wait nearly 3 hours until the event was over to tell Queens during the awards ceremony? If they did want the ITU rules to be followed why did they put it in the DL slides, but not the MTR slides? It seems like USAT is the ones with some dirt of their faces here for running such a mess. There is always going to be a petty/jealous team out there (which of the 4 CU athletes made this protest, and did the coach actually confirm it? That is embarrassing for all the 4 athletes and coaches involved) , and always going to be a cocky winning team, but the people putting on the race should keep it held together. Can we not all agree USAT needs to fix this issue in one way or another? No matter what the outcome, we can't have the team title being changed at the awards ceremony every other year. (Yes, this is 2 out of 3 years now)


This!....summary : Petty protest takes advantage of USAT's dumbass, overly complicated rules
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [APKTRI] [ In reply to ]
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APKTRI wrote:
Twinkie wrote:
Can we just address the elephant in the room here..

Colorado was butt hurt because they lost to a better team and got them DQed by technicality. It is poor sportsmanship. If they all raced butt ass naked, Colorado would have still lost and they know it.

hate to say it - but the rules are merky and gray and colorado won on a bullshit technicality and I no longer respect that team as a whole haha


Mr(s). Twinkie,

Cal won.

Well hell ya! Better then Col. Cal was nice enough to not even take the top podium. Respect
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [Twinkie] [ In reply to ]
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Twinkie wrote:
APKTRI wrote:
Twinkie wrote:
Can we just address the elephant in the room here..

Colorado was butt hurt because they lost to a better team and got them DQed by technicality. It is poor sportsmanship. If they all raced butt ass naked, Colorado would have still lost and they know it.

hate to say it - but the rules are merky and gray and colorado won on a bullshit technicality and I no longer respect that team as a whole haha


Mr(s). Twinkie,

Cal won.


Well hell ya! Better then Col. Cal was nice enough to not even take the top podium. Respect

Col did move up a spot.

It was bullshit, weaker than circus lemonade, and just all around crap sportsmanship by colorado. They should be ashamed of themselves.
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Trauma wrote:
dalava wrote:
Sleeved suits, no. Arm sleeves, apparently OK.



That is from WTS Edmonton, when it was cold AF... Again not sure USAT, but in terms of ITU, the Head Ref/TD always had the option to waive the no arm warmers rule /leg covering rule for extreme conditions... Now, arm warmers for AG racing are legal by default, and no longer require an exception, except during a non wetsuit swim... In the race pictured, it was definitely a wetsuit legal swim (if memory serves the swim was nearly cancelled because of the cold temps), so Summer's get up was kosher...

The content in race briefings are critical.... I've been at international championship events where decisions on rule enforcement had to be changed, based on briefing content that contradicted initial guidance... But all of this speaks to having clear and understandable rules...

I think you are absolutely CORRECT on ITU discussion above and on needing to have clearer and internally consistent rules!

Also... in DL competition, I am pretty sure that all DL athletes are suppose to have their uniforms checked before even being allowed into the TZ to set up their bikes. If they were not checking, this probably should not be a MTR rule... just like many of the other more-strict, nuanced rules are relaxed for the MTR, with just the 12 basic "Draft-Legal Rules" that are enumerated on the USAT CCNC website being observed by the Officials. Further, the same website reads "This event is DRAFT-LEGAL and will follow draft legal triathlon rules." While true that the pre-race meeting can up-end the adherence to advertise/standard Rules for the event... it seems to have been the spirit of the MTR event at CCNC that the Officials purposely modified the enforcement of rules either right before or maybe even during the event, based on what they are observing en masse (e.g., no baskets, not citing for where cap/goggles/helmet are discarded, maybe not as strict on mount and dismount, uniforms too... I saw pictures a few years back where some athletes were bare-chested and not DQ'd [Clemson I think]). Maybe they decided it would have been unsustainable and sending the wrong message to disqualify over 1/3 of the field, understanding that most were there to have fun, not to mention it was likely a big money-maker for USAT to charge the extra entry fees too.
Whoever is running the program over there needs to work with the Collegiate Commission to get on the same page.

And yes... I think Queens bares a good deal of the responsibility as a top-ranked program. They should have known better. Bet they will pay more attention from now on.
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [Pelagic1] [ In reply to ]
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Again, not sure USAT, but from the ITU perspective, every race could have uniform checks, regardless of whether or not they are draft legal...

That said, this is a learning moment for all involved...
- Queen's, being the clear dominant team, realize that you are under the microscope, so know the damn rules...
- Colorado, there are ways to win, and times that you should let it go... two years ago, I had the chance to get a race winner DQ'd that would have bumped me to the overall win, he missed the run turn-around and cut roughly 45sec of running, the thing was, he was 5min up the road, so whether his time was 45sec faster or not, he clearly was the strongest in the race (on paper he beat me by 6min instead of 5min), and I wouldn't have wanted to win that way, so I never protested... I was happier with a legit second, than with an ill-gotten win... For sure it was his responsibility to know the course, but I'd rather be sporting, than petty...
- USAT/NCAA commissioners... clarify the rules, there can't be a convoluted unenforceable mess of rules and expect to have fair, sporting, and safe racing... You need clear rules that are enforced consistently, and where exceptions have been granted, make that clear (i.e. in the race briefing, either exempt sleeves or don't)... That will make the races more enjoyable and your official's lives much easier...
- Athletes bare the responsibility for knowing the rules... If they don't, they are putting themselves at risk for sanctions. In the collegiate club setting, at a minimum the coach should know the rules and brief their teams... That said, the rules need to be clear, and understandable in order for this system to work.
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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https://www.teamusa.org/...eKgCmvy3aJWS53zAJMfo

Overturned.

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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Hard not to applaud that decision.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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Not surprised. In the end USAT just looks like a giant joke because of all this. Hopefully they wake up and realize there are some serious changes that need to be made with writing, enforcing and making rules public knowledge.
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. It was maybe the correct ruling but made in bad faith and applied inconsistently. You gotta imagine USAT will pay way more attention to this and other "minor" rules in the future. Overall a good call.

Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [APKTRI] [ In reply to ]
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I'd argue the system worked. An appeal was filed with Hearings & Appeals Committee and the call was overturned, much like a higher court overturning a lower court's decision. The question I still have is what was the competition committee thinking at race site?

#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [LazyEP] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, you're right that it did work but if USAT was on top of their rules and making sure they were clear and known then this would have never been an issue.
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [APKTRI] [ In reply to ]
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I appreciate the complete lack of transparency on why they called it one way and then decided to over rule it. Really helpful for everyone.
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed that an explanation of the decision process would be nice, but I'm totally supportive of where it has ended up.

If I had to guess at the less official thought process:

_Letter of the law, they got DQ'd
_Expected some backlash, got more than expected
_Realized internally that the rules were very murky, and were followed haphazardly
_Let some common sense apply and decided, given the above, to let the clear best team win while they clarify the rules for next year

To be honest, as much as I like rules I never would have taken part in filling such a petty protest. I hate intentional cheaters, but I can see a defendable ignorance claim here. Clearly USAT did as well.

I guess in the end it'll have a positive impact though, assuming they clean up the rule book.

Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [APKTRI] [ In reply to ]
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APKTRI wrote:
Not surprised. In the end USAT just looks like a giant joke because of all this. Hopefully they wake up and realize there are some serious changes that need to be made with writing, enforcing and making rules public knowledge.

Don't disagree. I'd just keep in mind that on-site officials at most races are volunteers who give up their weekends, working 10-12 hour days so others can have fun. They often have very little experience or training. They get little positive affirmation for showing competence, and instant abuse in moments of incompetence. They get harried all day, and are burdened with a lot of tasks. It's not hard to make mistakes, particularly the mistake of trying to make the person in front of you happy rather than thinking about the bigger picture.
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [trail] [ In reply to ]
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If it is who I think it was, I believe that the head ref at that race was quite experienced and knowing how he is, I am not surprised he made the initial DQ. Glad that it was overturned...
Last edited by: Uncle Phil: Apr 18, 19 21:58
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah I would agree with that statement. I have worked races before (not as an official but rather setting up the race course and everything) and those are longggg days so I get the whole tired and just wanting to get by part of that. I don't personally know any of the officials but I have been at that race for that past 6 years and the head official has always seemed very experienced.
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [APKTRI] [ In reply to ]
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It's really too bad none of the athletes on Queens will be able to celebrate this national title together since they don't actually live in the same state and are online MBA students taking 6 credits.
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [emantell] [ In reply to ]
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emantell wrote:
It's really too bad none of the athletes on Queens will be able to celebrate this national title together since they don't actually live in the same state and are online MBA students taking 6 credits.

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [APKTRI] [ In reply to ]
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Update on the Queens situation- head coach Sonni Dyer spoke on the incident on the Queens Sports Network podcast
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