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Controversy at Collegiate Nationals
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https://www.fullsendtriathlon.com/...dmmvPFl2zYFQQ7Xuy2Yc


Queens University absolutely tore up the weekend and it seems (at first glance anyway) to be a somewhat bogus call which cost them the overall title. I am curious if anyone here has more insight into the specifics, and if there is anything that can be done to rectify this if indeed it was an unjust call. I don't have a personal stake in this matter.... I just fit Lippert and started following the "Full Send" blog, or I would have never known about it.


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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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FindinFreestyle wrote:
https://www.fullsendtriathlon.com/...dmmvPFl2zYFQQ7Xuy2Yc


Queens University absolutely tore up the weekend and it seems (at first glance anyway) to be a somewhat bogus call which cost them the overall title. I am curious if anyone here has more insight into the specifics, and if there is anything that can be done to rectify this if indeed it was an unjust call. I don't have a personal stake in this matter.... I just fit Lippert and started following the "Full Send" blog, or I would have never known about it.

Jack Felix is also like 25 competing at college nationals.. just putting that out there for Slowtwitch
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [xcchampion11] [ In reply to ]
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Here's an idea.... Click the button to start a new post and title it something like "Should collegiate club athletics impose an age limit on athletes who still have eligibility?" This was a pretty specific thread with a specific purpose, to which your comment adds nothing.


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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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This is what happens when you mix gray area of following the rules in an non-elite environment. The rules at collegiate club level are meant to allow any "uniform" to be allowed. Mainly because with *most* of funding from the athletes themselves, some have old uniforms, some have new uniforms, so the "uniformity" has always hopefully been very relaxed. Of course Queens can afford proper uniforms, etc it because they have a more "team" structure.

But to lose on *that*, it's petty AF. But I also think it's one of those things you better follow the rules of the letter of the law and have no opening or someone is going to try and bust you.

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Apr 7, 19 10:27
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Readimg the link suggests they did NOT break the rules tho, as I read it.

And whomever submitted the complaint must be from the school of Donald Trump when it comes to having any moral compass.
(Wonder if he/she is studying law or politics ??)
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [BobAjobb] [ In reply to ]
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BobAjobb wrote:
Readimg the link suggests they did NOT break the rules tho, as I read it.

And whomever submitted the complaint must be from the school of Donald Trump when it comes to having any moral compass.
(Wonder if he/she is studying law or politics ??)

Perhaps the political stuff belongs in the Lavender Room.
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [xcchampion11] [ In reply to ]
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xcchampion11 wrote:
FindinFreestyle wrote:
https://www.fullsendtriathlon.com/...dmmvPFl2zYFQQ7Xuy2Yc


Queens University absolutely tore up the weekend and it seems (at first glance anyway) to be a somewhat bogus call which cost them the overall title. I am curious if anyone here has more insight into the specifics, and if there is anything that can be done to rectify this if indeed it was an unjust call. I don't have a personal stake in this matter.... I just fit Lippert and started following the "Full Send" blog, or I would have never known about it.

Jack Felix is also like 25 competing at college nationals.. just putting that out there for Slowtwitch


What if a 30 year old identified as a 19 year old? pink
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [xcchampion11] [ In reply to ]
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just to clarify, that whole pro going back to "grad school" pretty much has been going on for years. Colorado has pretty much prefected it on the men's side and well Queens is doing it great now. One difference and it's a huge difference- "online grad degree" vs actual regular grad degree.



ETA: And no I'm not trying to throw shade on any program. Just noting that the whole "25 year" old racing isn't anything of new. It's been going on for years, and since we really don't have any real "eligiblity" rules they can and likely will continue to race.

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Apr 7, 19 13:25
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [BobAjobb] [ In reply to ]
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They did break a rule as *some* of that info is incorrect in the linked info presented by Justin. But I think it's a "petty" rule but they did break the uniform violation.


Reminds me of Clermont about 5 years ago when about 15 people wore a swim skin and took it off in T1, they all received penalties, because the moment you wear anything that is your top, suddenly becomes your "uniform". A lot of people didn't think that was an penalty.

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Apr 7, 19 13:32
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Other than the clubs and the members themselves, who really cares about the Collegiate Club Nats?
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [dalava] [ In reply to ]
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As much as people care about what ST thinks? Those are probaly pretty close to numbers of people caring for each institution.

ETA: Although I will say- it's likely USAT's funniest weekend of national championships due to the team atmosphere of just fun and excitement and mixture of top elite talent with the "I do 3 workouts a week cus I'm an civil engineer so I'm just happy to finish" athletes.

Probaly the biggest award each year is the "spirit" award...teams go hard after that.

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Apr 7, 19 13:42
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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So, because Tempe Beach Park is a couple of miles away from where I live I went to support the athletes. One of my teammates also coaches MSU, so I went to meet her. I thought this was a great event. Also didn't know my alma mater qualified as our Alumni Chapter would have enjoyed hosting them for their pre-race meal.

Now, onto the MTR...So, let's talk suits. I saw sleeves all over the place. It wasn't a uniform standard at all. Multiple athletes on multiple teams with sleeved suits in the MTR Queue. Whoever complained detracted from this sport because of their pettiness. Now...to the USAT officials who let all of these athletes compete in non-reg suits should talk a walk of shame. This could have been fixed before they started the race and said to them: "I need you in a different kit to race, can you go grab it?"

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Hooker training for the Sport of Scrum-Halves [Triathlon]
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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Now, onto the MTR...So, let's talk suits.

------

A couple of issues I see is this.


1- Officials should "check" uniforms before every DL event. In fact athlete's equipment has to be "checked" (including uniforms) before they are even allowed to get into transition. This is much as an official's ommission as anything. I'm surprised they were allowed to even enter the race, but I also know the MTR is part "relaxed" rules, part elite level competition. So I think that bit them in the ass for the officials I mean.


2. With dealing w/ collegiate clubs- many are run by the kids themselves. Most schools dont even have coaches that are *suppose* to know the sleeve rule; and we see hear a school that has a coach and broke the sleeve rule. So I know the uniform issue has come up regularly because there is no standard uniform they all must wear because these are poor college kids that sometimes only buy 1 uniform for 4 years, so usually the uniform may change here and there every year.

3. The actual "protest" policy makes no sense in DL. You have 5 mins to protest post finish, however in many instances you don't even know of any infractions that occurred. I'll give you an example. About 5 years ago at a DL championship event, an athlete of mine received a penalty. However they put the wrong number on the board (or either didn't put his number on the board from the communications between the officials and the penalty officials), so he never served the penalty that he never saw he got. I in fact check the penalty board and photograph the penalty board to prove their was or wasn't infractions. My guy finishes, we are stoked. When the results come out and well past the "5 min" time, his result- DQ.....hmmmm. So I ask the official- what happened? "He didn't serve a penalty"? I ask what penalty, his number was never on the board. I asked could I protest, they said no. I said ok cool, I'll take it. BUT can we have an discussion on the parameters of how it all works.



So we had a discussion and my whole point was, why is the 5 min part of the discussion if we don't even get all the info until past the 5 min curfew. I went back about 12 hours later and they re-instated my athlete's results.




So my point wasn't that he got away with it, if we get a penalty or don't serve our penalty we deserve the DQ. But if you aren't told of a penalty, how can you serve it? The system works by the race communication to the racers of the penalty. If no communications happens, it means no penalty. That's how they've done it for years and years.



-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Apr 7, 19 14:17
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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"DQ.....hmmmm. So I ask the official- what happened? "He didn't serve a penalty"? I ask what penalty, his number was never on the board. I asked could I protest, they said no."

Sounds like you ended up with favorable decision, but for future reference - you can appeal DQs.





Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [JimmyRiccitello] [ In reply to ]
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but for future reference - you can appeal DQs.

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Not if the DQ is a result of not serving a penalty. ETA: Or shall I say- you wont win an appeal if you don't serve a penalty (even if it turns out a unjustified penalty). So I'm guessing the race will gladly take your $50 and hear your case only to say "you didn't serve your penalty, it's the only rule we cant clarify our decision on because of that....DQ stands".

Which is what was in that case. So as I said, I would have gladly accepted the DQ and we did cus they weren't going to change it. They only changed it in the middle of the night when they realized this happened to 4 athletes- IE officials didn't communicate properly between officials to put the numbers on the penalty board and allow the athletes to serve their penalties properly. Of course this was a race with a 1st time new "lead official" so they had some kinks, and I believe it's also why they reinstated the DQ's when they realized it was basically their fault. 5 kids aren't going to miss serving their penalties at a national championship event. Maybe 1, but not 5 kids.

So as I said, I was fine with not being able to appeal it. I just wanted understanding on how to deal with that circumstance moving forward...IE- I wanted to make sure they understood it was weird to DQ an athlete for not serving a penalty that they never made the athlete aware of and thus he never "missed" serving the penalty. Your only penalized in ITU if ITU gives you a penalty. You only stop to serve a penalty if ITU acknowledges you and the key- makes the athlete aware of the infraction and thus needing to sit out for the prescribed time. That procedure fails if the race doesn't let the athlete know it needs to serve a penalty.


ETA: Which to bring it back to MTR- I find it interesting that in the pre-race inspection no officials made any of the athletes aware of this. They usually do a very very good job of helping athletes being able to race properly. And yes the uniform is part of the equipment inspection along with your bike/wheels/brakes/helmet/decals that every athlete has to get checked before any DL event. Of course it sounds like they only got busted because it was appealed by the other uni's and I'm guessing last year no one cared to appeal it (Jack wore basically the same style suit when he won it last year).


ETA #2- But an athlete can be post race DQ'd etc if they in fact are guilty of unfair play and another athlete protests said athlete. In these cases it has more to do with "aggressiveness" while out racing and not "I saw 1 toe over the line, DQ him". Littering, foul language, abusive behavior around others, cutting the course with no officials around, etc would be things that could be protested, an infraction such as "mount" line error imo aint going to be changed.

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Apr 7, 19 17:26
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
Now, onto the MTR...So, let's talk suits. I saw sleeves all over the place. It wasn't a uniform standard at all. Multiple athletes on multiple teams with sleeved suits in the MTR Queue. Whoever complained detracted from this sport because of their pettiness. Now...to the USAT officials who let all of these athletes compete in non-reg suits should talk a walk of shame. This could have been fixed before they started the race and said to them: "I need you in a different kit to race, can you go grab it?"

...so a lot of teams broke the rule. Everyone on here knows that a good sleeved tri suit beats sleeveless. Breaking rules to go faster seems like a fine reason to DQ to me. It is an unfortunate oversight that they missed (or ignored) the race handout: https://draftlegalrules.files.wordpress.com/...athletechecklist.pdf which says twice: "Uniforms with sleeves are not allowed." Of course, whoever called them on it was being petty and kudos to the AF guys for their show of support...but no pity. They broke the rules and got punished for it.

To the second, I'd guess it is incredibly unlikely that they would have a sleeveless as a backup. In school, we certainly only had a single style and most members only had a single kit. Maybe some brought backups. Maybe everyone did and saw so many sleeves that they thought they'd be safe? Guess not.


(BTW, I was also a 25+ grad student on our team and there was another over 40!)
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [xcchampion11] [ In reply to ]
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xcchampion11 wrote:

Jack Felix is also like 25 competing at college nationals.. just putting that out there for Slowtwitch

So what? You also see this in college football and other scholarship sports. Chris Weinke played quarterback at Florida State in his late 20s.

Now maybe they should have a grad student vision or something, but ultimately I don’t see the issue.

I mean it might be weird if I was getting a graduate degree and raced Collegiate Nationals at 41, but 25 is young.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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It’s weird from the standpoint that your “clock” starts for NCAA when you start school. It doesn’t matter if you played in sport or not. So in generally graduate students wouldn’t be able to do an ncaa sport. So if that’s what you’re used to it can seem weird. However it’s club triathlon and they don’t care how many times you race so no problem at all.

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De Soto Sport Athlete
Formerly Draketriathlon
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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If USAT wants to make their regulations mirror NCAA on age...they can. USA Rugby did that and oh man it is a PITA.

Rugby Media Dude-earfulofdirt.com

Hooker training for the Sport of Scrum-Halves [Triathlon]
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [dfroelich] [ In reply to ]
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dfroelich wrote:
and kudos to the AF guys for their show of support...

Navy guys.
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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There would be no need for that. No conference would push or want that. This is club sports we are talking about... It would be a huge pain in the ass and create problems for the clubs that are generally run by the students themselves....Who are students, and who F up a lot of stuff. And forget to turn in X before the deadline because well they are students and they have 100 other different priorities. And oh yeah they are students who F up stuff a lot if put in that type of control/expectations.

ETA: As I said, this whole "25 year old racing and winning" has been going on for a long time for *many* of the top teams. I guess we'd call them "graduate transfers" if they were NCAA are some of the top scoring athletes for many of the teams.

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Apr 7, 19 19:20
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, well it happened in Rugby. But I think their aim is to be aligned should there ever be divine intervention and Men's rugby becomes an NCAA sport.

Rugby Media Dude-earfulofdirt.com

Hooker training for the Sport of Scrum-Halves [Triathlon]
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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Tri won't become an men's ncaa sport ever, so there's not much concern. Besides we can have ncaa and club level sports with each having distinct rules and objectives.

And yes I can see why it was a PITA when a governing body basically forced eligiblity status as strict as NCAA regs on a sport that's run for the most part by students. (cue the capt obvious commerical jingle)


I see the daily emails within our conference on the PITA just getting everyone registered and in the right race slots. I certainly wouldn't want them having to deal with eligibility forms, semester credit hour checks (they have to only do this 1 time a year to finalize USAT nationals registration), transfer issues, etc etc.

ETA: I believe there is something like 300+ collegiate clubs in the USAT registry from "elite" level teams all the way to the 1 person "club" just so they can race collegiate nats. It would be idiotic to make them follow ncaa standards with respect to eligibility requirements with the lack of leadership and understanding what club level triathlon really is mostly about.

-USAT L2 coach, M.S. Exercise Physiology
https://www.instagram.com/alloutmultisport
http://www.aomultisport.com
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Apr 7, 19 20:27
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Age limits for racing Collegiate Nationals racing came up as a topic when I was one of the Collegiate Commissioners back in 2013ish. And likely continues to be brought up. It generally always comes back to the fact that if they are meeting the requirements to be full time college students and are considered so by their school, they should be able to race at Collegiate Club Nationals. Getting more in depth than that and dividing things always complicated things for not a good enough reason.

And if you want to race a National Championship where results are decided by age, then there is Age Group Nationals.

Adam Feigh
Christian, Dad, Nurse, Professional Triathlete
Feighathlon.com
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Re: Controversy at Collegiate Nationals [Feighathlon] [ In reply to ]
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Feighathlon wrote:
Age limits for racing Collegiate Nationals racing came up as a topic when I was one of the Collegiate Commissioners back in 2013ish. And likely continues to be brought up.

In addition to your points, that would screw Veterans and anyone who didn't start college right out of high school, and therefore is a bad idea.
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