My son races for Queens and your facts are not even close to the real facts in regards to Justin or the triathletes at Queens. Yes some of them get SOME scholarship but most of it is tied to academics and nowhere near a full(or even 1/2) ride. And the equipment they receive is minimum. Yes they get a tri kit and bike kit and have a limited availability to a TT or road bike to USE since many of them race both DL and non DL and cannot afford 2 bikes. Do they have some advantages over many of the other teams at collegiate nats? Yes. But they aren't alone. If you think CU, CSU, UC Berkeley, UCSD, Navy, etc do not have similar you are mistaken. My contention is USAT should add an elite race to the current schedule for those who want to be super competitive.

One thing nobody is talking about in this thread is the final race, the MTR finished ~5:30 PM. The awards, held offsite, were scheduled for 8:00 PM. The Queens coach was notified of the protest on the way to the awards! How can you wait almost 2.5 hours to file a protest? Secondly, this wasn't really a protest so much as another athlete pointing out an alleged infraction(that EVERY official saw and said nothing) and the officials agreed. This opens up a whole can of worms. For instance, I saw many, many athletes racing DL and MTR pushing their bikes before/after their race without their helmets strapped this weekend which is a DQ penalty. Could I have taken a picture and had an athlete submit it at the awards ceremony and file a protest? Since when are athletes auxiliary officials?

As as aside, if you ever have a chance to attend collegiate club nationals I highly recommend you take advantage of it. Easily the coolest atmosphere of any triathlon.

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------------------------------------------------
Fight............Finish

Incorrect. My girlfriend races for CSU (and yes, I was at the race) and they get zero equipment, apparel, or race fees from the University. They fund raise for their race fees, travel and lodging. Everything else is on the athletes. They purchase their own bikes, wheels, helmets, nutrition, kits, and everything else you can think of. As for the other schools I can almost guarantee they are in the same boat.

Lippert posted on the USAT Instagram everything the Queens team gets for free. He is a "club" athlete and gets that much so how much does the girls team get considering that is a varsity sport? Who knows. The fact that CSU's women cleaned house in the Olympic while paying their own way with none of the perks that a team like Queens gets is beyond impressive if you ask me.

For instance, I saw many, many athletes racing DL and MTR pushing their bikes before/after their race without their helmets strapped this weekend which is a DQ penalty. Could I have taken a picture and had an athlete submit it at the awards ceremony and file a protest? Since when are athletes auxiliary officials?

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Athletes have always had the chance to be "auxiliary officials" (your term) as part of the fair play. This mainly comes into play with an athlete cutting the course in front of the whole group or an athlete dunking an athlete underwater in the swim. That process (appeal/protest) has always been apart of the ITU (which is the rulebook that DL events follows) rules.

It's rarely ever used but it's basically used in terms of "aggressive" behavior situations where 3 athletes see 1 athlete dunk and hold an athlete underwater or an athlete turns at the wrong cone. If 8 athletes verify that he's the only one that turned short, that would be grounds for an appeal/protest.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I agree with the comment Easily the coolest atmosphere of any triathlon. I volunteered at registration. I saw lots of young people having a ton of fun, a very professional looking race set up, and a perfect venue. I wish this had existed when I was in college (or high school because it was also the US high school championships).

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Andrew Inkpen

Incidentally the swim contact rule was added to the ITU book at the athlete's request, and has been getting enforced (less protest-based, more video based in the ITU case)... These days with cameras everywhere, you need to race by the book, because if you don't, there's a good chance that someone has it on camera... (Cycling, by the way, seem to be the master's of the Twitter-based DQs, when in the hours following a stage videos pop up of athletes holding onto team cars for tows up climbs, etc. Tri is less in that business, but if you can find someone with a phone who has video, that can be very useful in terms of a protest/appeal).

It should honestly be a requirement in a case like this, that at a minimum someone on each team, either a coach, or an athlete-coach (could be a captain or whomever) take a level 1 officiating course... So that someone knows the rules for competition, protests, appeals, etc. That way there's no excuse for ignorance. They do this in cycling, in order to get a UCI licence to serve as a DS driving in the caravan, you need to take a comissaire's course... To me it's a no-brainer...

Again, being a bit naive to the USAT/NCAA rules here, if the protest was indeed lodged on time, based on the ITU Rules, the head referee should have posted/announced that the results remained unofficial and that a protest was being reviewed. If that was not the case, then it might have been worth appealing the decision for not adhering to the prescribed process (I have seen this happen at races, although in those cases, the decisions stood because processes were followed to a T...).

Your point is just the tip of the iceberg...

Depending upon where & how clubs are governed, could mean hundreds of schools with different rules & regs for club participation. A traditional approach (based on my experience in higher ed) is that if you have a student ID (meaning you are registered for at least 1 credit), you're eligible to participate in intramurals & club sports. At some schools, clubs are managed through the intramurals & recreation department. No age limit exists and no age limit can exist. Some schools may have a 2.0 GPA that mimics varsity sport rules (i.s. NCAA, NAIA, NJCAA, etc.).

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#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

Could you please find and post that rule. (Hint: It’s not a rule.)

I offer no opinion on the subject of protesting sleeves nor of the timing of such a protest. I do want to clarify that USA Triathlon rules 5.9.b and 5.9A.b that the requirement to wear a helmet applies only when mounted on a bicycle. One need not be calvarially encapsulated in foam to push a bike, portage a bike, look at a bike, touch a bike, feel a bike, or think about bikes. Thank you that is all.

Except it is for mixed tri relay. I didn’t believe him either so I looked up.

https://draftlegalrules.files.wordpress.com/...athletechecklist.pdf

“Note: Athletes must have the helmet chin strap buckled in place while touching the bike before, during or after the event, or the athlete will be disqualified. The chin strap must be snug against the athlete’s chin.”

Good catch, and that's always been a rule for specific DL events. That's been on the books for years...."Touch" your bike and your helmet should be on your head and buckled. And they can DQ you the day before an event as I've seen it happen. (It was later rescended to create more of a "teaching moment" and to let the kid race considering this was the 1st ever specific collegiate DL event back 6-7ish years ago).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Hi All,
Myself, and many other members of the University of Colorado Triathlon team, have been watching the various channels and threads regarding the Collegiate Nationals MTR race and events that followed. While I accept that there will always be many perspectives on any given issue, I feel that there are a few things that need to be set straight, having come up in this thread and other online discussions.

1. The protest was filed by a University of Colorado athlete at the finish of the MTR event. The athlete conferred with coaches and team members immediately after crossing the line to confirm that a potential rule violation occurred and then filed the protest verbally and in written form with the official at the finish line within minutes of finishing. The athletes who attended the mandatory MTR meeting recall that the same draft-legal uniform guidelines were presented at both the DL and MTR meetings.
2. A protest can only be filed against a single athlete at a time and subsequently applied against a single athlete. In order for the ruling to be applied to all athletes wearing sleeves, an individual protest would have had to be submitted against each and every athlete. In this case, a protest was only filed against Queens given their relevance to the front of the MTR race.
   
3. Following other unrelated events in the Men’s non-draft race, we did not feel we were “in the running” for the overall title. The protest was in no way lodged as an attempt to claim the overall title, only as a protest against a rule violation observed in the MTR.
   
4. The University of Colorado Team has been on both sides of similar incidents and ultimately we have come to appreciate the desire of other teams and the USAT officials to actively enforce all rules, no matter how significant of an impact they may have on the results. Following various penalties and warnings, we as a team have received over the years, we now actively inform and teach all of our athletes about the “little” rules - correct bike racking, correct bib position while running, when to have helmets on and buckled, etc. It will always be natural for the top teams to be scrutinized, and Queens, being a top team, should expect as much. We certainly do.
   
5. The University of Colorado Triathlon team is a student funded organization. Each of our athletes pay for the following items throughout the year:
   


• Annual Dues (coaching, pool life-guards, etc.)
• Travel Dues ($600+ for two travel conference races and Nationals)
• Event Entry Fees (conference races, MCTC Collegiate Regionals, USAT Collegiate Nationals)
• Team Clothing (t-shirts, team polos, etc.)
• Race Suits
• Any and all race gear
• Our athletes do not receive any type of scholarship, tuition assistance, or admissions preference. As a team we receive $5000 per year from the University of Colorado to divide among approximately 100 student athletes and discounts ranging from 10-35% from a small group of sponsors and team supporters.

I hope that the debate that surrounds this protest drives an update to the Collegiate Triathlon rules, clarifying them for the years to come. Racing is always best when done on the course, but I also feel that it is important to stand by the rules set for the competition. If we start ignoring rules because they are insignificant to the outcome of the event, we create the need for an arbitrary classification of which rules matter and which rules do not matter. If an athlete or team feels that there is a rule that is unfair, unnecessary, or perhaps even needs to be added, I’d strongly encourage them to start a conversation with their Conference Commissioner and USAT.

Jack

(Edited for formatting)

Jack Toland:

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

All he needed was to drop how many national championships they have at the end and it would have been perfect lol.

Very well said, Jack. Congrats to your team on a great weekend.

Uhhh.
Two schools.
Raced nationals 4 times, twice as an undergrad at USCGA in 11-12, twice in grad school 18-19 for CSU.

BUT HEY HOW ABOUT THAT CSU SWEEP?????

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IG: idking90

And it was still petty.

By filing said protest you went from 3rd to 2nd. So you gained plenty.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

My bad, Ian. Totally thought you’d raced for a school other than Coast Guard and CSU, my apologies.

But yes, MAJOR congrats to you guys/gals on the women’s podium sweep, that was impressive!

At the awards ceremony would have been too late probably... otherwise yes. I filed a complaint once against another athlete immediately after crossing the finish line... I caught the race leader 1/4 mile out of t2 and just ran on his shoulder and had planned to out kick him at the finish. He cut the course 100 yards from the finish line and opened up a quick gap I couldn't suddenly close. I got two volunteers to coroborate what happened and I got the win... he got a 2:00 penalty. Athletes can file protests and I learned to not toy around with fire, you run through people if you can.

argee.......VERY petty

Okay let's get a few things straight here.

1. The idea that some individuals on here are giving the Queen's athletes a hard time for having scholarships is disappointing. Do you not want this sport to succeed? The fact that we have a successful enough sport that a university would be willing to give scholarship money to club athletes is fantastic. Instead of tearing down a success in our sport, we should be holding them on a pedestal and pushing for other universities to support their teams more. USAT wants high level athletes at collegiate nationals. It is great for the brand image. And they also want it to be very inclusive to athletes of all abilities. This is a win win and an opportunity to help support our most talented athletes. (Some of which don't come from great means)

2. Expanding on point one: giving the Queen's athletes a hard time because they took the scholarship that was offered to them. Of course they are going to take it. These are people that want to get degrees, but also love triathlon. What triathlete in their right mind would not take the opportunity to get a free (or cheaper) education and train for triathlon? Would the CSU girls not take that opportunity if they were offered it at CSU? Of course they would. And that is great! No one is going to say, "no thank you, that is morally wrong because not all teams and athletes get the same funding" Neither do NCAA teams. Some teams get more, some get less. Some athletes get scholarships on the team and some don't.

3. As far as the rules. The Collegiate Competitive rules state that only "individual draft legal events" need to follow the USAT Collegiate Draft Legal Rules for uniforms. Mixed "team" relay is not that. So, you would need to follow the Collegiate Competitive rules, which make no mention of no sleeves. And more importantly, even if we did go to the draft legal rules, does everyone understand that the rules were updated merely 24 days before the race to say that sleeves were not allowed? And that when they were published, no one was made aware of the publication until the day of the pre-race meetings? I asked, and was told none of the commissioners sent these new rules out to their conferences. Considering sleeves were allowed last year, and at best you had 24 days to go buy a new uniform (if you were informed, but you 100% weren't), that seems pretty unfeasible. We all know how long new custom uniforms can take to come in.

4. This was an amazing event. There was so much excitement and good sportsmanship this past weekend, and none of that should be overlooked. Everyone needs to take a deep look at themselves and try to be more empathetic to others. Try to understand what it would feel like to have a championship taken away from you that you have worked for for so long (and at the very last minute, unexplained). And for Queen's try to understand that others could be envious of some of your good fortune, and don't get upset with them and lash out because of it. Use it to bring everyone together. USAT is comprised of short staff, and many volunteers trying to do their best to keep everything running smoothly. Demand the best from them, but also appreciate them for their passionate work. They made a mistake, and hopefully will rectify it properly.

Thank you for saying this, Jack! I remember in 2017 when Dan Feeney was penalized for racking his bike the wrong way, while he was the # 1 seed. It literally impeded nobody. It was petty, and everyone was upset, but Dan accepted his mistake and has moved on with his life. This penalty didn't ruin his life and he learned from it. I wish that Queens would take the same attitude towards this race as opposed to playing the blame game. Jack accepted it and made a nice comment on facebook about how he's sorry that his mistake costed the team, but the entire rest of the team seems to be in outrage that a petty penalty cost them a title. This is how the real world works - people are petty everywhere in business. I'm surprised the MBA program hasn't taught them that.

I also received the same penalty as Dan and a few others that year for racking the wrong way. The difference between now and then is that in 2017 it was the USAT officials that gave us the penalties. It wasn't another team that protested us racking the wrong way. That year it made USAT look bad because they only looked at how the top 40ish guys racked their bikes and gave penalties according. When there were 800+ other athletes that they didn't look at or give penalties to. What rubs me, other CU alumni, and other schools the wrong way, is that CU would be petty enough to protest a team that clearly won. Especially when it was all for a couple more inches of material on ONE of their athletes’ suits. If like Jack says, “The athletes who attended the mandatory MTR meeting recall that the same draft-legal uniform guidelines were presented at both DL and MTR meetings," then CU should have let USAT take care of it. If it was really that important to USAT that no one wear sleeves, then don't you think they would notice that someone who broke the tape and won the race was wearing them? If USAT hadn't of taken notice without a protest and didn't penalize them, then that would have told you that it wasn't important, and you need to train more for next year if you want to beat them.

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Timothy Winslow

They made a mistake, and hopefully will rectify it properly.

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Who are you saying made the mistake?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The jury that voted to apply the penalty.

What rule did they improperly apply? It sounds like the protest was done in proper time manner. It sounds like the sleeve rule was on the books for the MTR (you stated it was applied 24 days before the event). A team protested that particular matter with your athlete in particular according to the rules/regs of the sport.

I think the process was applied correctly, yes?


Regardless of whether we agree or disagree on the "pettiness" of the protest.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II