Jack Felix is also like 25 competing at college nationals.. just putting that out there for Slowtwitch

Here's an idea.... Click the button to start a new post and title it something like "Should collegiate club athletics impose an age limit on athletes who still have eligibility?" This was a pretty specific thread with a specific purpose, to which your comment adds nothing.

This is what happens when you mix gray area of following the rules in an non-elite environment. The rules at collegiate club level are meant to allow any "uniform" to be allowed. Mainly because with *most* of funding from the athletes themselves, some have old uniforms, some have new uniforms, so the "uniformity" has always hopefully been very relaxed. Of course Queens can afford proper uniforms, etc it because they have a more "team" structure.

But to lose on *that*, it's petty AF. But I also think it's one of those things you better follow the rules of the letter of the law and have no opening or someone is going to try and bust you.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Readimg the link suggests they did NOT break the rules tho, as I read it.

And whomever submitted the complaint must be from the school of Donald Trump when it comes to having any moral compass.
(Wonder if he/she is studying law or politics ??)

Perhaps the political stuff belongs in the Lavender Room.

What if a 30 year old identified as a 19 year old? pink

just to clarify, that whole pro going back to "grad school" pretty much has been going on for years. Colorado has pretty much prefected it on the men's side and well Queens is doing it great now. One difference and it's a huge difference- "online grad degree" vs actual regular grad degree.



ETA: And no I'm not trying to throw shade on any program. Just noting that the whole "25 year" old racing isn't anything of new. It's been going on for years, and since we really don't have any real "eligiblity" rules they can and likely will continue to race.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

They did break a rule as *some* of that info is incorrect in the linked info presented by Justin. But I think it's a "petty" rule but they did break the uniform violation.


Reminds me of Clermont about 5 years ago when about 15 people wore a swim skin and took it off in T1, they all received penalties, because the moment you wear anything that is your top, suddenly becomes your "uniform". A lot of people didn't think that was an penalty.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Other than the clubs and the members themselves, who really cares about the Collegiate Club Nats?

As much as people care about what ST thinks? Those are probaly pretty close to numbers of people caring for each institution.

ETA: Although I will say- it's likely USAT's funniest weekend of national championships due to the team atmosphere of just fun and excitement and mixture of top elite talent with the "I do 3 workouts a week cus I'm an civil engineer so I'm just happy to finish" athletes.

Probaly the biggest award each year is the "spirit" award...teams go hard after that.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So, because Tempe Beach Park is a couple of miles away from where I live I went to support the athletes. One of my teammates also coaches MSU, so I went to meet her. I thought this was a great event. Also didn't know my alma mater qualified as our Alumni Chapter would have enjoyed hosting them for their pre-race meal.

Now, onto the MTR...So, let's talk suits. I saw sleeves all over the place. It wasn't a uniform standard at all. Multiple athletes on multiple teams with sleeved suits in the MTR Queue. Whoever complained detracted from this sport because of their pettiness. Now...to the USAT officials who let all of these athletes compete in non-reg suits should talk a walk of shame. This could have been fixed before they started the race and said to them: "I need you in a different kit to race, can you go grab it?"

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Now, onto the MTR...So, let's talk suits.

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A couple of issues I see is this.


1- Officials should "check" uniforms before every DL event. In fact athlete's equipment has to be "checked" (including uniforms) before they are even allowed to get into transition. This is much as an official's ommission as anything. I'm surprised they were allowed to even enter the race, but I also know the MTR is part "relaxed" rules, part elite level competition. So I think that bit them in the ass for the officials I mean.


2. With dealing w/ collegiate clubs- many are run by the kids themselves. Most schools dont even have coaches that are *suppose* to know the sleeve rule; and we see hear a school that has a coach and broke the sleeve rule. So I know the uniform issue has come up regularly because there is no standard uniform they all must wear because these are poor college kids that sometimes only buy 1 uniform for 4 years, so usually the uniform may change here and there every year.

3. The actual "protest" policy makes no sense in DL. You have 5 mins to protest post finish, however in many instances you don't even know of any infractions that occurred. I'll give you an example. About 5 years ago at a DL championship event, an athlete of mine received a penalty. However they put the wrong number on the board (or either didn't put his number on the board from the communications between the officials and the penalty officials), so he never served the penalty that he never saw he got. I in fact check the penalty board and photograph the penalty board to prove their was or wasn't infractions. My guy finishes, we are stoked. When the results come out and well past the "5 min" time, his result- DQ.....hmmmm. So I ask the official- what happened? "He didn't serve a penalty"? I ask what penalty, his number was never on the board. I asked could I protest, they said no. I said ok cool, I'll take it. BUT can we have an discussion on the parameters of how it all works.


So we had a discussion and my whole point was, why is the 5 min part of the discussion if we don't even get all the info until past the 5 min curfew. I went back about 12 hours later and they re-instated my athlete's results.




So my point wasn't that he got away with it, if we get a penalty or don't serve our penalty we deserve the DQ. But if you aren't told of a penalty, how can you serve it? The system works by the race communication to the racers of the penalty. If no communications happens, it means no penalty. That's how they've done it for years and years.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

"DQ.....hmmmm. So I ask the official- what happened? "He didn't serve a penalty"? I ask what penalty, his number was never on the board. I asked could I protest, they said no."

Sounds like you ended up with favorable decision, but for future reference - you can appeal DQs.

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

but for future reference - you can appeal DQs.

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Not if the DQ is a result of not serving a penalty. ETA: Or shall I say- you wont win an appeal if you don't serve a penalty (even if it turns out a unjustified penalty). So I'm guessing the race will gladly take your $50 and hear your case only to say "you didn't serve your penalty, it's the only rule we cant clarify our decision on because of that....DQ stands".

Which is what was in that case. So as I said, I would have gladly accepted the DQ and we did cus they weren't going to change it. They only changed it in the middle of the night when they realized this happened to 4 athletes- IE officials didn't communicate properly between officials to put the numbers on the penalty board and allow the athletes to serve their penalties properly. Of course this was a race with a 1st time new "lead official" so they had some kinks, and I believe it's also why they reinstated the DQ's when they realized it was basically their fault. 5 kids aren't going to miss serving their penalties at a national championship event. Maybe 1, but not 5 kids.

So as I said, I was fine with not being able to appeal it. I just wanted understanding on how to deal with that circumstance moving forward...IE- I wanted to make sure they understood it was weird to DQ an athlete for not serving a penalty that they never made the athlete aware of and thus he never "missed" serving the penalty. Your only penalized in ITU if ITU gives you a penalty. You only stop to serve a penalty if ITU acknowledges you and the key- makes the athlete aware of the infraction and thus needing to sit out for the prescribed time. That procedure fails if the race doesn't let the athlete know it needs to serve a penalty.


ETA: Which to bring it back to MTR- I find it interesting that in the pre-race inspection no officials made any of the athletes aware of this. They usually do a very very good job of helping athletes being able to race properly. And yes the uniform is part of the equipment inspection along with your bike/wheels/brakes/helmet/decals that every athlete has to get checked before any DL event. Of course it sounds like they only got busted because it was appealed by the other uni's and I'm guessing last year no one cared to appeal it (Jack wore basically the same style suit when he won it last year).


ETA #2- But an athlete can be post race DQ'd etc if they in fact are guilty of unfair play and another athlete protests said athlete. In these cases it has more to do with "aggressiveness" while out racing and not "I saw 1 toe over the line, DQ him". Littering, foul language, abusive behavior around others, cutting the course with no officials around, etc would be things that could be protested, an infraction such as "mount" line error imo aint going to be changed.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

...so a lot of teams broke the rule. Everyone on here knows that a good sleeved tri suit beats sleeveless. Breaking rules to go faster seems like a fine reason to DQ to me. It is an unfortunate oversight that they missed (or ignored) the race handout: https://draftlegalrules.files.wordpress.com/...athletechecklist.pdf which says twice: "Uniforms with sleeves are not allowed." Of course, whoever called them on it was being petty and kudos to the AF guys for their show of support...but no pity. They broke the rules and got punished for it.

To the second, I'd guess it is incredibly unlikely that they would have a sleeveless as a backup. In school, we certainly only had a single style and most members only had a single kit. Maybe some brought backups. Maybe everyone did and saw so many sleeves that they thought they'd be safe? Guess not.


(BTW, I was also a 25+ grad student on our team and there was another over 40!)

So what? You also see this in college football and other scholarship sports. Chris Weinke played quarterback at Florida State in his late 20s.

Now maybe they should have a grad student vision or something, but ultimately I don’t see the issue.

I mean it might be weird if I was getting a graduate degree and raced Collegiate Nationals at 41, but 25 is young.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

It’s weird from the standpoint that your “clock” starts for NCAA when you start school. It doesn’t matter if you played in sport or not. So in generally graduate students wouldn’t be able to do an ncaa sport. So if that’s what you’re used to it can seem weird. However it’s club triathlon and they don’t care how many times you race so no problem at all.

If USAT wants to make their regulations mirror NCAA on age...they can. USA Rugby did that and oh man it is a PITA.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Navy guys.

There would be no need for that. No conference would push or want that. This is club sports we are talking about... It would be a huge pain in the ass and create problems for the clubs that are generally run by the students themselves....Who are students, and who F up a lot of stuff. And forget to turn in X before the deadline because well they are students and they have 100 other different priorities. And oh yeah they are students who F up stuff a lot if put in that type of control/expectations.

ETA: As I said, this whole "25 year old racing and winning" has been going on for a long time for *many* of the top teams. I guess we'd call them "graduate transfers" if they were NCAA are some of the top scoring athletes for many of the teams.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Yeah, well it happened in Rugby. But I think their aim is to be aligned should there ever be divine intervention and Men's rugby becomes an NCAA sport.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Tri won't become an men's ncaa sport ever, so there's not much concern. Besides we can have ncaa and club level sports with each having distinct rules and objectives.

And yes I can see why it was a PITA when a governing body basically forced eligiblity status as strict as NCAA regs on a sport that's run for the most part by students. (cue the capt obvious commerical jingle)


I see the daily emails within our conference on the PITA just getting everyone registered and in the right race slots. I certainly wouldn't want them having to deal with eligibility forms, semester credit hour checks (they have to only do this 1 time a year to finalize USAT nationals registration), transfer issues, etc etc.

ETA: I believe there is something like 300+ collegiate clubs in the USAT registry from "elite" level teams all the way to the 1 person "club" just so they can race collegiate nats. It would be idiotic to make them follow ncaa standards with respect to eligibility requirements with the lack of leadership and understanding what club level triathlon really is mostly about.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Age limits for racing Collegiate Nationals racing came up as a topic when I was one of the Collegiate Commissioners back in 2013ish. And likely continues to be brought up. It generally always comes back to the fact that if they are meeting the requirements to be full time college students and are considered so by their school, they should be able to race at Collegiate Club Nationals. Getting more in depth than that and dividing things always complicated things for not a good enough reason.

And if you want to race a National Championship where results are decided by age, then there is Age Group Nationals.

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Adam Feigh
Pianko Law, Speed Hound, Castelli, Sailfish, Base
Feighathlon.com

In addition to your points, that would screw Veterans and anyone who didn't start college right out of high school, and therefore is a bad idea.

Maybe someone who is interested in watching the future of the sport?
Maybe someone who enjoys the teamwork and interschool rivalries?
Maybe someone who enjoys watching/following the sport, no matter the venue or type of race?
Maybe someone who is thankful that USAT provides these kids with the opportunity to compete at a national championship.
Maybe someone who doesn't have their head up their ass and can't understand why everyone doesn't see things the way he does..

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

To shed some light on the sleeve rules, we were explicitly told during the DL briefing on Thursday, which I believe Queens had four athletes and a coach there (could be wrong about this but I highly suspect it) that sleeves were not allowed, and during the MTR briefing on Friday we were told basically the same thing. I am not defending the decision to DQ Queens because I don't agree with that and it seemed like there were a lot of schools who did wear sleeves for both the DL and MTR and didn't get punished. I know some schools actually rolled up their sleeve too to be in compliance with the rules. Ironically, last year we were told sleeves were allowed in the DL race too. I could be wrong about this but the way I understand it was that Queens was DQ for failing to serve the penalty for wearing sleeves but I checked the penalty board after the third person went and there was only one number on there and it wasn't Queens. I also didn't see an official at the penalty box either but that could just be because everyone served their penalties. Just some insight from someone who was there and went to the briefings.

And it's not like Jack Felix is the oldest pro triathlete racing collegiate nats. Ian King is 28 going on 29 this and has raced for so many schools that I've lost count, but raced for CSU this year.

According to Rudy Von Berg, it was Colorado University that filed a protest.

(Unspecified edit)

(Impressive double dip here.)



At what point are you just going to change your user ID to ETA? This collection is from just this thread!

Forgive my ignorance, but why in the hell aren't sleeves allowed? I know in regular old USAT tris, I almost always wear sleeves. The only time I don't is if I know it's going to be super hot on the run. So is the issue here that a uniform had sleeves, or that the members of the team didn't have exactly matching uniforms?

I think the nitty gritty focus on something so mundane is just a real bad look. (a) it's absolutely asinine to regulate to the point of whether a jersey should be sleeveless, and (b) if the general logo is the same and the only difference is whether or not one top has or doesn't have sleeves, then why can't it be considered a "matching uniform"?

Honestly I have no idea why sleeves weren't allowed and it was even weirder that they changed the rules from last year to this year too.

First off, I wasn't being dismissive about the competition or the athletes competing in it; just saying that this competition is not of big consequences in the overall scheme of competitive triathlon. Yeah, it may be a "Controversy at Collegiate Nationals", but it's not really that consequential.

Since you commented, here is my response:

1. unlikely, maybe on the men's side, but with the new ASU/high performance program USAT set up, the pathway to the future - read Olympics - is probably not through Collegiate Club Nats
2. sure, for the kids - some not so kids - themselves for the most part
3. of course you may; I followed and cheered on for some of the athletes I know, but outside of this circle, I doubt many really care
4. ok, not sure why would that make anyone care more or less
5. "well, that's just, like, your opinion"

Collegiate Club Nationals is ONE of the most competitive races in the country. I'd say it's definitely the most competitive OLY distance race. Look at the times that the top 100 kids are throwing down. People split hairs about races in this forum that quite honestly don't mean crap. Your average 70.3 is significantly less competitive than Collegiate Nats.

It’s normally not done by age. As I said it a previous post it’s number of years in school. So grad students generally can’t race NCAA stuff because they’d be over the 4 years in college limit. As far as I know there aren’t any “age limited” sports in college.

But as others have said for level of club sport that triathlon is, it’s just a lot of work and not worth it.

Ignore function can work really well for you if you have an issue.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

To your Olympic pathway- this is becoming a likely very very competitive pathway especially for the men's side. The women's depth is growing and I'd say is better race than all but the D1 NCAA fields, and I'd wager only 1-2 schools at that.


It's also likely a easier pathway within ITU format because there is zero regulations here. It's why Queens is basically becoming an "training squad" collegiate team.


Podium project isn't the answer because it's only going to take in a few a year at most. So many are going to have other options to pursue.




And I'll say this- Collegiate Nats has a likely far more important aspect of next level racing than JE Series does. JE Series has a HUGE burnout rate.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

There is a 5 year window that starts after graduating high school for the majority of NCAA sports. One has 4 years of eligibility in that 5 year window. The 5 year window CAN be extended under extreme circumstances but requires NCAA approval on a case by case basis.

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blog

I hope they let the young people race in sleeved and unsleeved next year... no DQs. Bummer for Queens, they raced great all weekend.

There is a 5 year window that starts after graduating high school for the majority of NCAA sports.//

I believe in my day, the window didn't start until you entered college, not when you graduated high school. So is that a recent change?? There were several athletes that took off a year or two after high school, and thus you have older folks racing as seniors, especially if they red shirted in there too..

The 5 year window doesn't actually matter in terms of when you finish high school. It has everything to do with the moment you step on campus. Your 1st day of class you have 5 year window to complete 4 years of eligibility barring any extra medical redshirts or religious missions (ex: mormon athletes).


It's why Chris Weinke who never went to college out of HS (ETA: He went and played pro baseball out of HS and skipped college totally) was a 26 year old "freshman" QB at FSU like 20 years ago.


So it all starts when you start actual 1st day of college, now of course most scholarship athletes start immediately post HS. But the 5 year window only starts when you start on campus. Not after your final HS year.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

That’s not what the ncaa site says. I’ve only found one website that says that you have a one year grace period after high school. But that isn’t on the NCAA site that I can find.

No you are right. It's when you start classes at a university/college.

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blog

I've done collegiate nats three years now, ag nats a couple times, and even a few 70.3 races. Collegiate nats is by far the most competitive race out of all those as well as the most fun. Also, just for the general thread, I believe there used to be a limited number of years you could compete but this was changed about 4 years ago to unlimited eligibility.

Former D1 swimmer here. The 5 year window exists.

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blog

I think because of the elite-like formats, they are trying to somewhat approximate ITU rules... In those rules, it's not the format (DL or Non-DL) that dictate the sleeves rule, it's the distance. For the standard, sprint and super-sprint distances sleeves are not allowed, and where they are allowed (middle and long distance), they are not allowed for a non-wetsuit swim.

That being said, the challenge appears to be that there is not a set of clear rules that you can then enforce with consistency. If you have clear rules, they can be re-iterated at the briefings, and then form the basis for any decisions made by a competition jury in the case of an appeal. When there's not a clear set of rules, it makes any decision a mess... Hopefully all involved learn from this, and either the USAT or the NCAA look at clarifying the rules, so that next year any cases are black and white, as opposed to a shade of grey... The article was an interesting read, although potentially biased in the facts that were shared due to the author being part of the team involved...

In terms of the penalties issues that were mentioned... again, not too familiar with the USAT rules (although I've seen the time penalties after the fact before at races), but in the ITU rules, there are specifications on timing by which a penalty has to be posted in order for it to be enforced (usually before the last lap of the run, and certainly before the athlete (or in the case of MTR, the last athlete from the team) pass the penalty board for the last time).

I'm super happy that I was not an official in this case, because when there's not clarity, you get into the tricky area of having to interpret the spirit of the rule when making a decision, which is a hard position to defend... But this is how competition rules evolve, grey areas get exposed, someone has to make a tricky decision, and then at the next revision of the rules, they try to make it black and white... It's certainly a shitty way to get DSQ'd. although if as some posters noted it was indeed mentioned at the briefing, then I am a little less sympathetic, since if they heard that, and then knew a team member wished to race in a sleeved suit, they should have approached the head ref proactively to ask for an exception...

I think ITU rules say suits must be sleeveless (for whatever reason), USAT follows that rule for all draft-legal races, the MTR is draft-legal, so if you follow the letter of the law, all athletes in MTR races much wear sleeveless.

In the Collegiate Club Nats, they have draft-legal races and then non draft-legal races. With these being club athletes who pay their own way to these competitions, and some do DL and some do non-DL, the DL rules for suits weren't enforced very strictly in previous years, until this protest.

just as an update, i think this story is about to evolve.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

A bunch of behind the scenes discussion for stuff moving forward.

I think the key in all of this is clarity for everyone. Collegiate Nats is an unique environment in that with the Juniors 99.9% of it is funded by parents. AG Nats is funded by well established working professionals. Collegiate Nats truly is the 1 national championship that is made up of mostly "poor" athletes. We need to simply the rules as much as possible with that aspect. I'd also like to see clarity/discussion on NCAA status athletes racing club level in the same year. Currently that will result in a lose of ncaa eligibility. However, with the 2 sports being in different months of the same academic year, an "senior" who's exhausted NCAA eligiblity can turn around and race collegiate club 4 months later. That's one of the other topics the committee is going to address as well. If everyone thinks the current "eligibility" with NCAA athletes is the best way, great. I just know the "spirit" of the rule is iffy when you double dip as a graduating senior.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Currently the only school that has had seniors race club and NCAA is Queens.

However...Grace Norman is a junior at Cedarville and has been racing NCAA XC and track for them, and raced the Oly at Collegiate Nats. She redshirted the 2018 XC season but is on the roster to race track this season and has already competed in a few T&F meets this year.

You hit the nail on the head with that one. Lippert has made it tough to take anything he says or does seriously. While running the USAT Instagram on this past Thursday he made an absolute fool of himself IMO. Taking 6 credits online, not even living in the state of your university and having everything given to you (including your tuition) by your "club" team makes it pretty hard to compare him and his teammates to the typical broke college athlete at this event taking a full course load and living in a college dorm just trying to get by.

My son races for Queens and your facts are not even close to the real facts in regards to Justin or the triathletes at Queens. Yes some of them get SOME scholarship but most of it is tied to academics and nowhere near a full(or even 1/2) ride. And the equipment they receive is minimum. Yes they get a tri kit and bike kit and have a limited availability to a TT or road bike to USE since many of them race both DL and non DL and cannot afford 2 bikes. Do they have some advantages over many of the other teams at collegiate nats? Yes. But they aren't alone. If you think CU, CSU, UC Berkeley, UCSD, Navy, etc do not have similar you are mistaken. My contention is USAT should add an elite race to the current schedule for those who want to be super competitive.

One thing nobody is talking about in this thread is the final race, the MTR finished ~5:30 PM. The awards, held offsite, were scheduled for 8:00 PM. The Queens coach was notified of the protest on the way to the awards! How can you wait almost 2.5 hours to file a protest? Secondly, this wasn't really a protest so much as another athlete pointing out an alleged infraction(that EVERY official saw and said nothing) and the officials agreed. This opens up a whole can of worms. For instance, I saw many, many athletes racing DL and MTR pushing their bikes before/after their race without their helmets strapped this weekend which is a DQ penalty. Could I have taken a picture and had an athlete submit it at the awards ceremony and file a protest? Since when are athletes auxiliary officials?

As as aside, if you ever have a chance to attend collegiate club nationals I highly recommend you take advantage of it. Easily the coolest atmosphere of any triathlon.

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------------------------------------------------
Fight............Finish

Incorrect. My girlfriend races for CSU (and yes, I was at the race) and they get zero equipment, apparel, or race fees from the University. They fund raise for their race fees, travel and lodging. Everything else is on the athletes. They purchase their own bikes, wheels, helmets, nutrition, kits, and everything else you can think of. As for the other schools I can almost guarantee they are in the same boat.

Lippert posted on the USAT Instagram everything the Queens team gets for free. He is a "club" athlete and gets that much so how much does the girls team get considering that is a varsity sport? Who knows. The fact that CSU's women cleaned house in the Olympic while paying their own way with none of the perks that a team like Queens gets is beyond impressive if you ask me.

For instance, I saw many, many athletes racing DL and MTR pushing their bikes before/after their race without their helmets strapped this weekend which is a DQ penalty. Could I have taken a picture and had an athlete submit it at the awards ceremony and file a protest? Since when are athletes auxiliary officials?

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Athletes have always had the chance to be "auxiliary officials" (your term) as part of the fair play. This mainly comes into play with an athlete cutting the course in front of the whole group or an athlete dunking an athlete underwater in the swim. That process (appeal/protest) has always been apart of the ITU (which is the rulebook that DL events follows) rules.

It's rarely ever used but it's basically used in terms of "aggressive" behavior situations where 3 athletes see 1 athlete dunk and hold an athlete underwater or an athlete turns at the wrong cone. If 8 athletes verify that he's the only one that turned short, that would be grounds for an appeal/protest.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I agree with the comment Easily the coolest atmosphere of any triathlon. I volunteered at registration. I saw lots of young people having a ton of fun, a very professional looking race set up, and a perfect venue. I wish this had existed when I was in college (or high school because it was also the US high school championships).

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Andrew Inkpen

Incidentally the swim contact rule was added to the ITU book at the athlete's request, and has been getting enforced (less protest-based, more video based in the ITU case)... These days with cameras everywhere, you need to race by the book, because if you don't, there's a good chance that someone has it on camera... (Cycling, by the way, seem to be the master's of the Twitter-based DQs, when in the hours following a stage videos pop up of athletes holding onto team cars for tows up climbs, etc. Tri is less in that business, but if you can find someone with a phone who has video, that can be very useful in terms of a protest/appeal).

It should honestly be a requirement in a case like this, that at a minimum someone on each team, either a coach, or an athlete-coach (could be a captain or whomever) take a level 1 officiating course... So that someone knows the rules for competition, protests, appeals, etc. That way there's no excuse for ignorance. They do this in cycling, in order to get a UCI licence to serve as a DS driving in the caravan, you need to take a comissaire's course... To me it's a no-brainer...

Again, being a bit naive to the USAT/NCAA rules here, if the protest was indeed lodged on time, based on the ITU Rules, the head referee should have posted/announced that the results remained unofficial and that a protest was being reviewed. If that was not the case, then it might have been worth appealing the decision for not adhering to the prescribed process (I have seen this happen at races, although in those cases, the decisions stood because processes were followed to a T...).

Your point is just the tip of the iceberg...

Depending upon where & how clubs are governed, could mean hundreds of schools with different rules & regs for club participation. A traditional approach (based on my experience in higher ed) is that if you have a student ID (meaning you are registered for at least 1 credit), you're eligible to participate in intramurals & club sports. At some schools, clubs are managed through the intramurals & recreation department. No age limit exists and no age limit can exist. Some schools may have a 2.0 GPA that mimics varsity sport rules (i.s. NCAA, NAIA, NJCAA, etc.).

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#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

Could you please find and post that rule. (Hint: It’s not a rule.)

I offer no opinion on the subject of protesting sleeves nor of the timing of such a protest. I do want to clarify that USA Triathlon rules 5.9.b and 5.9A.b that the requirement to wear a helmet applies only when mounted on a bicycle. One need not be calvarially encapsulated in foam to push a bike, portage a bike, look at a bike, touch a bike, feel a bike, or think about bikes. Thank you that is all.

Except it is for mixed tri relay. I didn’t believe him either so I looked up.

https://draftlegalrules.files.wordpress.com/...athletechecklist.pdf

“Note: Athletes must have the helmet chin strap buckled in place while touching the bike before, during or after the event, or the athlete will be disqualified. The chin strap must be snug against the athlete’s chin.”

Good catch, and that's always been a rule for specific DL events. That's been on the books for years...."Touch" your bike and your helmet should be on your head and buckled. And they can DQ you the day before an event as I've seen it happen. (It was later rescended to create more of a "teaching moment" and to let the kid race considering this was the 1st ever specific collegiate DL event back 6-7ish years ago).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Hi All,
Myself, and many other members of the University of Colorado Triathlon team, have been watching the various channels and threads regarding the Collegiate Nationals MTR race and events that followed. While I accept that there will always be many perspectives on any given issue, I feel that there are a few things that need to be set straight, having come up in this thread and other online discussions.

1. The protest was filed by a University of Colorado athlete at the finish of the MTR event. The athlete conferred with coaches and team members immediately after crossing the line to confirm that a potential rule violation occurred and then filed the protest verbally and in written form with the official at the finish line within minutes of finishing. The athletes who attended the mandatory MTR meeting recall that the same draft-legal uniform guidelines were presented at both the DL and MTR meetings.
2. A protest can only be filed against a single athlete at a time and subsequently applied against a single athlete. In order for the ruling to be applied to all athletes wearing sleeves, an individual protest would have had to be submitted against each and every athlete. In this case, a protest was only filed against Queens given their relevance to the front of the MTR race.
   
3. Following other unrelated events in the Men’s non-draft race, we did not feel we were “in the running” for the overall title. The protest was in no way lodged as an attempt to claim the overall title, only as a protest against a rule violation observed in the MTR.
   
4. The University of Colorado Team has been on both sides of similar incidents and ultimately we have come to appreciate the desire of other teams and the USAT officials to actively enforce all rules, no matter how significant of an impact they may have on the results. Following various penalties and warnings, we as a team have received over the years, we now actively inform and teach all of our athletes about the “little” rules - correct bike racking, correct bib position while running, when to have helmets on and buckled, etc. It will always be natural for the top teams to be scrutinized, and Queens, being a top team, should expect as much. We certainly do.
   
5. The University of Colorado Triathlon team is a student funded organization. Each of our athletes pay for the following items throughout the year:
   


• Annual Dues (coaching, pool life-guards, etc.)
• Travel Dues ($600+ for two travel conference races and Nationals)
• Event Entry Fees (conference races, MCTC Collegiate Regionals, USAT Collegiate Nationals)
• Team Clothing (t-shirts, team polos, etc.)
• Race Suits
• Any and all race gear
• Our athletes do not receive any type of scholarship, tuition assistance, or admissions preference. As a team we receive $5000 per year from the University of Colorado to divide among approximately 100 student athletes and discounts ranging from 10-35% from a small group of sponsors and team supporters.

I hope that the debate that surrounds this protest drives an update to the Collegiate Triathlon rules, clarifying them for the years to come. Racing is always best when done on the course, but I also feel that it is important to stand by the rules set for the competition. If we start ignoring rules because they are insignificant to the outcome of the event, we create the need for an arbitrary classification of which rules matter and which rules do not matter. If an athlete or team feels that there is a rule that is unfair, unnecessary, or perhaps even needs to be added, I’d strongly encourage them to start a conversation with their Conference Commissioner and USAT.

Jack

(Edited for formatting)

Jack Toland:

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

All he needed was to drop how many national championships they have at the end and it would have been perfect lol.

Very well said, Jack. Congrats to your team on a great weekend.

Uhhh.
Two schools.
Raced nationals 4 times, twice as an undergrad at USCGA in 11-12, twice in grad school 18-19 for CSU.

BUT HEY HOW ABOUT THAT CSU SWEEP?????

---

IG: idking90

And it was still petty.

By filing said protest you went from 3rd to 2nd. So you gained plenty.

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

My bad, Ian. Totally thought you’d raced for a school other than Coast Guard and CSU, my apologies.

But yes, MAJOR congrats to you guys/gals on the women’s podium sweep, that was impressive!

At the awards ceremony would have been too late probably... otherwise yes. I filed a complaint once against another athlete immediately after crossing the finish line... I caught the race leader 1/4 mile out of t2 and just ran on his shoulder and had planned to out kick him at the finish. He cut the course 100 yards from the finish line and opened up a quick gap I couldn't suddenly close. I got two volunteers to coroborate what happened and I got the win... he got a 2:00 penalty. Athletes can file protests and I learned to not toy around with fire, you run through people if you can.

argee.......VERY petty

Okay let's get a few things straight here.

1. The idea that some individuals on here are giving the Queen's athletes a hard time for having scholarships is disappointing. Do you not want this sport to succeed? The fact that we have a successful enough sport that a university would be willing to give scholarship money to club athletes is fantastic. Instead of tearing down a success in our sport, we should be holding them on a pedestal and pushing for other universities to support their teams more. USAT wants high level athletes at collegiate nationals. It is great for the brand image. And they also want it to be very inclusive to athletes of all abilities. This is a win win and an opportunity to help support our most talented athletes. (Some of which don't come from great means)

2. Expanding on point one: giving the Queen's athletes a hard time because they took the scholarship that was offered to them. Of course they are going to take it. These are people that want to get degrees, but also love triathlon. What triathlete in their right mind would not take the opportunity to get a free (or cheaper) education and train for triathlon? Would the CSU girls not take that opportunity if they were offered it at CSU? Of course they would. And that is great! No one is going to say, "no thank you, that is morally wrong because not all teams and athletes get the same funding" Neither do NCAA teams. Some teams get more, some get less. Some athletes get scholarships on the team and some don't.

3. As far as the rules. The Collegiate Competitive rules state that only "individual draft legal events" need to follow the USAT Collegiate Draft Legal Rules for uniforms. Mixed "team" relay is not that. So, you would need to follow the Collegiate Competitive rules, which make no mention of no sleeves. And more importantly, even if we did go to the draft legal rules, does everyone understand that the rules were updated merely 24 days before the race to say that sleeves were not allowed? And that when they were published, no one was made aware of the publication until the day of the pre-race meetings? I asked, and was told none of the commissioners sent these new rules out to their conferences. Considering sleeves were allowed last year, and at best you had 24 days to go buy a new uniform (if you were informed, but you 100% weren't), that seems pretty unfeasible. We all know how long new custom uniforms can take to come in.

4. This was an amazing event. There was so much excitement and good sportsmanship this past weekend, and none of that should be overlooked. Everyone needs to take a deep look at themselves and try to be more empathetic to others. Try to understand what it would feel like to have a championship taken away from you that you have worked for for so long (and at the very last minute, unexplained). And for Queen's try to understand that others could be envious of some of your good fortune, and don't get upset with them and lash out because of it. Use it to bring everyone together. USAT is comprised of short staff, and many volunteers trying to do their best to keep everything running smoothly. Demand the best from them, but also appreciate them for their passionate work. They made a mistake, and hopefully will rectify it properly.

Thank you for saying this, Jack! I remember in 2017 when Dan Feeney was penalized for racking his bike the wrong way, while he was the # 1 seed. It literally impeded nobody. It was petty, and everyone was upset, but Dan accepted his mistake and has moved on with his life. This penalty didn't ruin his life and he learned from it. I wish that Queens would take the same attitude towards this race as opposed to playing the blame game. Jack accepted it and made a nice comment on facebook about how he's sorry that his mistake costed the team, but the entire rest of the team seems to be in outrage that a petty penalty cost them a title. This is how the real world works - people are petty everywhere in business. I'm surprised the MBA program hasn't taught them that.

I also received the same penalty as Dan and a few others that year for racking the wrong way. The difference between now and then is that in 2017 it was the USAT officials that gave us the penalties. It wasn't another team that protested us racking the wrong way. That year it made USAT look bad because they only looked at how the top 40ish guys racked their bikes and gave penalties according. When there were 800+ other athletes that they didn't look at or give penalties to. What rubs me, other CU alumni, and other schools the wrong way, is that CU would be petty enough to protest a team that clearly won. Especially when it was all for a couple more inches of material on ONE of their athletes’ suits. If like Jack says, “The athletes who attended the mandatory MTR meeting recall that the same draft-legal uniform guidelines were presented at both DL and MTR meetings," then CU should have let USAT take care of it. If it was really that important to USAT that no one wear sleeves, then don't you think they would notice that someone who broke the tape and won the race was wearing them? If USAT hadn't of taken notice without a protest and didn't penalize them, then that would have told you that it wasn't important, and you need to train more for next year if you want to beat them.

---

Timothy Winslow

They made a mistake, and hopefully will rectify it properly.

-----

Who are you saying made the mistake?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The jury that voted to apply the penalty.

What rule did they improperly apply? It sounds like the protest was done in proper time manner. It sounds like the sleeve rule was on the books for the MTR (you stated it was applied 24 days before the event). A team protested that particular matter with your athlete in particular according to the rules/regs of the sport.

I think the process was applied correctly, yes?


Regardless of whether we agree or disagree on the "pettiness" of the protest.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I'm a bit of a stickler for rules when they affect the performance of the athlete, however if I was the CU athlete then I would of just simply told the athlete before the race started. Regardless, I think USAT needs to look at it a different way. If something is called into question then the review and appropriate penalty should fall onto everyone. The enforcement of some rules in my experience is too arbitrary.

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Why are we not enforcing the rule in advance of the competition on all of the athletes? I was there, counted at least 20 in sleeved suits and thought nothing of it. But because CU came in third, they decide to complain. Fairness in applying rules here, if USAT on race day let's someone race without the correct equipment that's on the Officials and not on the athlete. Especially considering time constraints for publication of "new rules".

Them's the Rules is not a good response.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

https://www.teamusa.org/...ubs/collegiate-clubs

These are the UST Collegiate Competitive rules which the commissioners give to us every year and tell us to follow.

Section 5.2 has the uniform rules.

5.2.1. All athletes racing on behalf of their club must wear an official club uniform from the start to finish of the race.
5.2.2. The school’s name, nickname, or initials must appear on the club’s uniform and must be the largest and most prominent lettering or image on the uniform.
5.2.3. Uniforms may be unzipped during competition; however the school’s name or initials must remain prominently displayed on the front and back of torso.
5.2.4. Athletes who do not follow these standards during a race will receive a variable time penalty as defined in Section 3.7 of USAT Competitive Rules.
5.2.5. For Draft-Legal individual events, athletes must additionally follow the uniform guidelines of USAT Competitive Rules for draft-legal events.

The MTR is not an "individual event", it is a Mixed "Team" relay. Therefore it does not need to follow the USAT Competitive Rules for draft-legal events. My team president has asked about this rule before and was told by a commissioner that sleeves are allowed because the MTR does not follow the USAT Competitive Rules for draft legal events. I am sure we are not the only ones who were told that as several other teams had sleeves this weekend as well.

The rules that are passed out and we are told to follow should take precedent no?

By bringing politics into this, you ruined any point you might have made.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

The rules that are passed out and we are told to follow should take precedent no?

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That's a good question. But if they made new rules 24 days AND included in the pre-race meeting, you better know the rules of the race. So when you tell me that you knew at most 24 days prior and at worse 24 hours before the event that said uniform is now not allowed- you can't then complain that the officials error'd in the application of the rules.

So what I was trying to have a discussion over is that, in this case the rules weren't "improperly" applied that you ended your comments with. You guys were put in a tough situation and error'd and got called on it.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

1. I am not on Queens.
2. The point of what I just shared is that those rules (written 24 days before the race) should NOT apply to the MTR. The Collegiate Competitive Rules make it clear that those rules only apply to the "Individual" draft-legal race. Saying that something is a rule in a meeting, does not make it correct.

Appropriate penalty.


It's a shame when an athlete gets a DQ when an appropriate penalty could be a time penalty.

As smart as almost everyone is on ST, it probably wouldn't take ten minutes to calculate the benefit of those sleeves and to add the seconds to their time. Some wouldn't even have to calculate it as for them it would be common knowledge. Why can't officials do what STers do daily?

While not a tragedy, I think the result sucks.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

Read page 1. I said this falls squarely on the officials not doing a good job when athletes check in pre-race. Every DL athlete that races has to have their equipment checked and that includes uniform. Now I'm going to say that because it's collegiate triathlon and so many apparently were unaware of the rules and the new updated sleeve rule, most just went with it. And it sounds like the officials checking the athletes did the same. Again the officials before every ITU race are there to HELP the athletes. If they see something wrong, they *usually* tell the athlete to fix it before allowed into the "field of play". But again I think the relaxed "collegiate" atmosphere that is in play here also was an circumstance, but when the officials feet were put to the fire with the protest- they then followed the rule book.


I think a lot of fault is in play here on all parties- and moving forward we as a collegiate club sport need a much easier stream lined uniform requirement (in my mind if it has your college logo it should be allowed assuming it's the normal tech material, etc). As I said most athletes get 1 uniform a year, to then change the rules 1 month before the event is kinda "doh" moment. But as to how the rules were applied in this circumstance- the officials didn't error here. They followed protocol pretty much to a T.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

2. The point of what I just shared is that those rules (written 24 days before the race) should NOT apply to the MTR. The Collegiate Competitive Rules make it clear that those rules only apply to the "Individual" draft-legal race. Saying that something is a rule in a meeting, does not make it correct.

------

A couple of things...But did it say that it would apply in the MTR? In those pre-race meetings, I'm always the "questioning" coach that brings up ANYTHING that I want clarification on. Of course our team (NC State who's in Queens conference) who was signed up for the MTR didn't race it and our top 3 athletes didn't end up going so I didn't go to the event this year to save the team money.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Seriously,

Do these teams feel like they "won" becase this team had sleeves and perhaps shouldnt?.....they didnt win, they got beat by the team with sleeves.....as an univolved person I dont look at the official results on this one to see who won....

and the guy that racked his bike wrong also won.......ridiculous petty enforcement of the rules...

For The Record-In regards to sleeves on MTR, I do have photographic evidence of at least one athlete on my phone. Snapped only about 10 of the race...and it was not a Queen's University athlete.

---

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Oh I have no doubt a bunch wore them. Again the MTR is a mix of "elite" athletes and a bunch of random not very fast athletes just out there having a good time. It's really really hard to get lapped out of an MTR and I cant even remember if they even have the lap out rule in the MTR for this particular event. Most MTR squads are just out there "having a good time" where I'm guessing about 10-12 programs are actually "racing" it.

I'm highly educated guessing here but USAT likely "needs" Queens to be successful in terms of it's HP ITU pathway (ETA: And no I dont mean giving them wins or turning blind eye to regulations). It really truly is turning into an "training squad" on a college campus. That's a good thing especially on the men's side because of the lack of pathways for the men other than the "podium project" (but as I said that's only on a yearly basis take likely 1-2 athletes, it cant be the exclusive feeder program). Here at NC State where I coach or at Colorado or any uni- they could basically "give scholarships" however it wants essentially. But only Queens is doing this pathway that supports both the men and women.

I think with that being said what's the saying "with great leadership comes great responsibility"- This probaly needs to apply to a bunch of parties here.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

What is brought up in the pre-race meeting is irrelevant. The Collegiate Competitive Rules state that ONLY the "Individual" draft legal event, needs to follow those rules (aka no sleeves). The MTR does not. So you can bring it up all you want in the meetings, but that doesn't mean the Collegiate Competitive Rules can be overruled with some other set of rules.

The USAT Collegiate Competitive Rules also state "5.2.4. Athletes who do not follow these standards during a race will receive a variable time penalty"

You make a good point.

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The MTR does not.

---------

Draft-Legal Mixed Team Relay
USA Triathlon will continue the 4-person Draft Legal Mixed Team Relay in 2019.
There will be 75 mixed team relay teams available; accommodating participation of 220 athletes. Each team will be comprised of two females and two males from the same collegiate team. This event is DRAFT-LEGAL and will follow draft legal triathlon rules.



5.7. The Collegiate Club National Championships will consist of the following events: 5.7.1. Draft-Legal Sprint 5.7.1.1. Sprint to Olympic distance draft-legal event (750-1500m swim / 20-40km bike / 5-10km run). 5.7.1.2. Conducted in accordance with USAT Competitive Rules for draft-legal events. 5.7.1.3. Athletes must race on compliant road bicycles for draft-legal events as outlined in USAT rules. 5.7.2. Non-Draft Olympic 5.7.2.1. Olympic distance non-drafting triathlon with multiple waves. 5.7.2.2. No maximum number of entrants per club if transition area space permits. 5.7.2.3. Conducted in accordance with USAT Competitive Rules for non-elite events. 5.7.2.4. Athletes must race on a traditional road or triathlon bicycle. Mountain bikes, hybrids, and cruisers are not permitted. 5.7.3. Mixed Team Relay 5.7.3.1. Draft-legal team relay event where each competitor in a club of 2 men and 2 women completes a (250-300m swim / 5-8km bike / 1.5-2km run) triathlon then tags clubmate. 5.7.3.2. Maximum of 1 relay team per Collegiate Club. 5.7.3.3. Conducted in accordance with USAT Competitive Rules for draft-legal club relay events.


ETA: It looks to me that they are saying the DL individual event has it's own uniform code. And then it's saying the MTR will follow the draft legal rules (which includes the specific uniforms). The uniform section only comments on individual draft legal, but then in the MTR it is using the DL competitive rules. So I would *assume* if an uniform isn't allowed in the individual race, it also likely wouldn't be allowed in the MTR. And again the MTR is made up of 75 teams many of which have no clue or guidance with many of these rules. Most of the MTR is "participant" based athletes.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So we are just going to ignore the section that specifically talks about uniforms and states they only need to be followed for the individual events? And ignore that the commissioners have been telling us all that sleeves are okay? Clearly that is how they interpret it. And I believe they wrote the rules.

And great, i'm glad you pointed that out. Can you find me those rules? I have found a "Check-list" document that changes with every single race. I have found the USAT Competitive Rules, but no document called "USA Triathlon Competitive Rules for Draft Legal Events." And in the USAT Competitive Rules, there is no mention of MTR or uniforms.

https://draftlegalrules.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/2019collegiateathletechecklist.pdf

No we aren't going to ignore the rules. I think because they speak to specifically to each event is why you can't use a sleeved suit in the MTR (when it says it will follow DL rules). That's how I read it. You and others read it differently. And then the officials read it how they read it.


There's a lot of things that need to be clarified and I think will moving forward.


You asked for the rules of DL events that USAT follows: Here they are in full:

https://www.triathlon.org/...ry/competition_rules

https://www.triathlon.org/...tegory/uniform_rules

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So we are going to ignore the USAT Collegiate Competitive Rules > Reference the USAT Rules for Draft Legal Racing (which don't seem to exist) or they at least reference a third set of rules? And that 3rd set of rules is what we are going by?

So for USAT Collegiate Club Nationals, ITU Competition Rules take precedent over the Collegiate Competitive Rules developed specifically for this event? The USAT Collegiate Competitive Rules make not mention of the ITU Competition rules anywhere.

What I'm telling you and have shown you is that no matter what pathway of rules you go by, any DL event doesnt allow sleeved trisuits. If you can show me where it says "MTR allows sleeved trisuits", I'll be with you.

Just show me that. Show me where MTR allows sleeved tri suits.

Because I can show you how sleeved tri suits aren't allowed in DL and I can also show you that the MTR for this particular event follows the "standard" DL rules that every USAT event has ever done DL races by.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

If your a collegiate racer I think this proves that they need to work on the clarity of the rulebook so we don't have this issue. So push for your team and conference to make some pretty immediate recommendations to discuss these changes overall. This is a terrible way to lose a championship and to win a title. Queens SMOKED the competition and even if they served a penalty for the infraction, they'd have easily won.

Queens asst coach and/or athlete is our conference's commissioner so I'm sure they'll be wanting this addressed for future races. I'd have zero issue with allowing any uniform for collegiate racing in any race. So non-draft uniform works for DL uniform which would work for MTR. I just think whatever they decide, they stick to it and don't "add" any additional rulings so close to an event.

ETA: With that, I'm signing off. Not much else to discuss.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Last point:

Here is the MTR slideshow at the pre-race meeting. Starts at 25:14.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jYzJO5GqEU


The key here is that the MTR athletes were not required to go to the individual draft-legal race meeting where they did mention the sleeves rule. They were only required to go to the MTR meeting the next day. You can see the slide starting at 25:14 for that event. No mention of uniforms whatsoever. I figured because the same rules did not apply, as is suggested in the USAT Collegiate Competitive Rules.

Since Jack did not race the individual draft legal race, I would assume he only went to the MTR meeting.

I showed you where is said that ONLY THE INDIVIDUAL EVENT had to follow the USAT Draft Legal Uniform Rules. When it says only one event, that automatically means NOT the other events.

Again, the commissioners have specifically referenced this rule and told teams they can wear sleeves.

The critical part is that I can show you in the same rule book that you keep mentioning how sleeves aren't allowed. Add in the fact that at the DL meetings they go over what uniform is and isn't allowed as well as the equipment that is and isn't allowed- it was no shock that they ruled against Queens. That's sorta the whole purpose of the "pre race" meeting(s). It's to go over the rules for said race, mention key rules- obviously they aren't going to go over every rule, but if they have an "uniform" slide and it says no sleeves allowed- it's a good indicator no sleeves are allowed.


Good luck next year if you are still in the collegiate scene!

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

In the MTR pre-race meeting they did not go over uniforms. That was only the draft legal meeting which was at a different time entirely. It was not on the slides.

You keep saying that nothing they say in these pre-race meetings matter - so what is the point for these meetings then? I have been to PLENTY of pre-race meetings where they go over specific course rules. For example, low speed zones or no-pass zones. These are RACE SPECIFIC rules. These rules aren't in any rule books, they are just making them up to keep the race safe. People get DQ'd for these rules. Lauren Brandon (I think it was her, could have been someone else though) got DQ'd for going too fast in a low speed zone - pretty crappy considering she probably lost out on a few thousand dollars for this.

If ANY (not just Queens) athlete was sitting in that MTR meeting, or even the DL meeting and heard something they didn't agree with or knew they would have an issue with then they should have asked and worked with USAT. For example, UMD had sleeved kits so before the DL or MTR they should have approached an official saying all they had were sleeved kits and I am sure USAT would have found a solution for them.

Also, I agree with B_Doughtie that the MTR is a DRAFT LEGAL race and therefore would follow DRAFT LEGAL rules. Is there a definition anywhere of "individual" versus "team" events? If not then I would say it is pretty obvious that the MTR is a DRAFT LEGAL race.

Except USAT only Disqualified Queens instead of the others. It's also dumb because they shouldn't have let them race or just given a time penalty because the officials looked the other way or were ignorant. If the officials are ignorant, it's pretty easy to see that the athletes would also be.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I 100% agree that Queens (and again, any other teams with improper equipment) should not have even been allowed to check into transition with equipment that is not approved. Would they have let someone in with a disc wheel, a tri spoke or a knockoff helmet from Ali Express? A bit different but in the end the same general idea - equipment that is not approved.

As to USAT DQ'ing EVERYONE with sleeves, I think Jack pointed out pretty clearly that a protest can only be filed against one individual athlete and therefore USAT can only look into that athlete. Bottom line is that the officials did NOT do their job and USAT didn't step in to make it right. Putting aside people's feelings on the Queens athletes, this is really an issue with USAT and them being INCREDIBLY inconsistent with enforcing their rules.

Could say.. some of their mindnumbingly stupid rules, such as .. no sleeves allowed.

The more rules a sport has, the harder it is to have clean, consistent application of those rules. Golf - they're trying - but for such a stupidly simple game in concept, way too many rules. NFL - more rules, more ambiguity, worse officiating.. it's not a coincidence.

I'm all for rules to competition, but they need to be black and white, or as damn near close as possible. And they need to be simple - to understand, to follow, to interpret. And they shouldn't cover areas that really have no bearing on the actual competitive event. Like.. sleeves. Seriously? What if Podunk U. started a fledgling tri club and their participants can only afford some $3 Hanes T's that say P.U. on them? Gonna make them cut the sleeves off? Sorry Podunk, but you'll have to use these scissors or change into wife-beaters. We wouldn't want you violating potential rule 1.2.3.4, subsection (a) ii that says in a DL MTR where it is apparently supposed to follow the rules of individual DL racing, thou shalt not wear sleeves, unless the temperature is low enough you're cold in which case you can wear one of the approved cover-ups on a list that we can't find. Plus the aero benefits of that 100% cotton sleeve puts you at an unfair advantage.

Some of this stuff is so mickey mouse.

You really need someone to write a definition for you that explains that "Individual draft legal events are different than mixed "team" relay?" Let me thing. One is for an individual, and one has "team" in its name....

I didn't say the meetings don't matter. They certainly do. But two points.
1. When they contradict the rules governing the race, that makes them invalid.
2. The MTR meeting did not mention uniforms or the separate DL rule-set. Different meeting, time and day.

I have also heard rumors that the protest and appeals procedure were improperly followed.... I guess that does make sense if Queens didn't hear about this until the awards ceremony.

It sounds like the protest was filed in the appropriate time frame. USAT could have taken a while to decide whether or not to DQ or just let it be. Is there somewhere in the rules saying that the athlete will be notified in XX amount of time following the protest? How are they supposed to notify them? What if the 432nd place athlete was DQ'd. How would they find out? The way I look at it as long as the DQ is added to the results they don't have to personally call the athlete/coach and tell them. To me it sounds like USAT was trying to give Queens the heads up before they found out in the middle of awards.

I have had a friend taken part in a protest similar to this before....
1. When a protest is made against you as an athlete, you are supposed to be notified almost immediately.
2. And before a decision is made they are supposed to notify both the person that filed the protest and the person that they protested against. Then they are both supposed to be able to have their voices heard. Now I don't know this for sure, but it seems that the decision was made before queen's was even told there was a protest. If that is true that is like a Kangaroo court with no defendant present.

2. The MTR meeting did not mention uniforms or the separate DL rule-set. Different meeting, time and day.

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I've heard from coaches and athletes that say otherwise. They mentioned to all athletes/coaches detailed rules are at "draftlegalrules.com"


Allowable uniforms and equipment are all on that document for all draft legal races. Those rules as always are the governing rules for draft legal events especially when the collegiate rulebook states the MTR will follow the "DL rules".



As I said I'm guessing with almost certainity that no other team in top 10 had sleeves on and that the ones "confused" on the rules was the Queens issue and the "participant" athletes who likely aren't as familiar with DL rules/regs/specifics.

Again there was what up to 255 athletes or something doing this DL event.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

And you'd be incorrect about your top 10 thing...like I said, there were A LOT of people with sleeved suits.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

What teams did then, please tell me which teams did. I'd be curious.


ETA: You said you have photos right? Go ahead and post them here.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The MTR is where A LOT of people race an "draft legal" event that otherwise would never race the individual event. Mainly due to ability/intensity of DL racing. DL racing has lap out rules that affect mostly with swimmers as if your slow in the water, you won't make the finish of the bike. So as I said I'm guessing a ton of those sleeved athletes were what we would call "participant" athletes. Ones that are doing it for the fun/kickass part of it, and aren't trying to game the system. They just dont know all the specifics of it.

But again, I'm curious out of all the top 10 teams who have athletes that regularly race DL and know the sleeve rule- which team wore them beside Queens?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The letter of the law USAT followed in DQing Queens is that:

1. DL races follow ITU rules
2. MTR is considered a DL race
3. so MTR follows ITU rules - no sleeve allowed

It seems that 1 should be clear to everyone for individual events. But 2 is implicit and probably obvious to those who regularly participate in individual DL races - not a lot of the athletes at this event. Adding to the confusion is the documented wording from USAT about 1 only applies to "individual events", and then the contradictory message in the pre-race meeting.

Given all that, it seems harsh for USAT to DQ queens using the letter of the law. I wonder if they considered all these factors in before making the decision.

But Jack Felix raced Super League. And they wore sleeves in draft legal racing. So why can't he wear them here???

What contradicting message was in the pre-race meeting?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I read from this thread that in the pre-race meeting they said the MTR races follow ITU rules.

The collegiate rulebook states what rules the MTR is raced under. But as I said to those "participants" who dont know DL specifics, they likely have no clue other than just make sure it's a "road bike". So in essence this was really a critical thinking exercise that many seemed to fail (again I understand why- many aren't used to the specifics of it but as I said StroBro needs to show me what top 10 teams had sleeves- almost all of the top 10 teams have athletes that race and understand DL rules). All you had to do was read the rulebook to understand what rules each race would be raced under. It's all there in the collegiate competitive rulebook. So ignorance or "well my conference told me this" isn't good enough IF you are racing for championships- which is why only 1 team/person was protested against and no one cared about 38th place team who was wearing "sleeves".

ETA: And I should say in 2017 when Dan Feeney (Colorado) WON the olympic and was giving an penalty for *racking* bike incorrectly, he showed 20 other people all around him doing it wrong, and not many beyond him got a penalty. So moral of the story- know the rules. If not, ignorance doesn't get you sympathy with officials. ESPECIALLY in DL circumstances, where the level of "preparedness" is much higher.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

That's what I thought, until I went and watched it. The draft legal races were amazing to watch.. those teams (both guys and girls) were ripping it up on the bike, and then they'd fly out of T2 in large groups and run each other into the ground on the run. It was great to watch.. much more interesting than the club races I've watched and participated in. Great atmosphere too.. they're all way into it.

+1. Sleeves gave no advantage. Next up, body hair. Sigh.

Kim is awesome! Great energy, hard worker, really strong athlete. She would only add to the festive atmosphere...

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Why isn’t the elephant of this thread being addressed? Nonsense rules. Any idea why there is even a rule (in the first place) specifying why you can’t wear sleeves? Is it a homogeneous beautification rule? If it was cold, could you wear armwarmers? If it’s really hot, and an athlete is concerned about sun exposure, I would think an outfit that offers more sun protection should be allowable, or sunsleeves, or is that not legal either? Since it’s draft legal, a shortsleeve suit that is theoretically faster with sleeves is meaningless over a sleeveless. This is a club sport, filled with mainly poor athletes, with rules like the Olympics... a total head scratcher to me. Am I missing something? If they want to follow a formal rule structure, why not say x or y rules will not be enforced... and then to only penalize one person out of supposed many sleeve wearing athletes is just plain nonsense.

Well I have seen and shared the slides from the MTR meeting here on this forum. So it is a fact that they were not mentioned in the MTR meeting. People can say whatever they want.

Nonsense rules.

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Actually it's not nonsense rules. The clarity within usat club commissioners and their rules is where the "mixup" happened.

Yes I have an idea why they don't allow sleeves- likely they don't so that it doesnt turn into a "tech" war and it's less about your uniform choice and more about the athlete inside the uniform....go figure, they want to take out as much non competitive things as they can for that type of distance race.


If it's cold yes you can wear armwarmers.


In terms of "sun exposure"- no that's not really an concern with the rules.



Yes this is club sports. Many of these athletes can only afford 1 uniform. There seems to have been a mixup between the conference commissioners understanding of the rules and the actual rules of the event going into this event and the info they were distributing to the athletes. The head scratcher isn't really that they are putting in strict rules. The issue was with the clarity and understanding of the rules. I'm a DL focused coach so I understood the rules fairly easily. But likely majority of teams dont have coaches than do have coaches and thus can at times either not understand the at times "overwhelming" nature of DL regulations/rules or simply take in the wrong info.


So it's not the specificity of the rules that is the issue. It was in the application of the rules that some confusion came into play. I don't think anyone was trying to "game" the system here- I think most with sleeves thought it was legal and no issues. BUT the ones with sleeves were breaking rules, and so the application of the rules and the protest and appeal process was done in accordance to the rules. So AJohnson's comments that the officials error'd in this ruling against Queens is simply incorrect. Queens will take their medicine, learn from this, be a little more pissed off for next year and make sure all their i's are dotted and t's crossed so no issue like this occurs moving forward. They'll go beast mode next year looking to sweep all the races (women's, men's, MTR, combined) . The same will happen likely with USAT/collegiate conferences. They'll resolve the uniform issue one way or the other- either allow "any" uniform essentially. Or make it better known/understood what the uniform requirements are for each event.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I think the biggest things is that everyone seems to be blaming each other for all this when we really should be blaming USAT for these rules that point in a million directions and are ambiguous as hell. I mean why are they adding rules to draftlegalrules.com just 24 days before the event and not having the commissioners share that with the teams? Why are they not properly following the protest/appeal procedures? Why did they not check the uniforms before the event like all other ITU events if they are going to impose those same rules? Why did they wait nearly 3 hours until the event was over to tell Queens during the awards ceremony? If they did want the ITU rules to be followed why did they put it in the DL slides, but not the MTR slides? It seems like USAT is the ones with some dirt of their faces here for running such a mess. There is always going to be a petty/jealous team out there (which of the 4 CU athletes made this protest, and did the coach actually confirm it? That is embarrassing for all the 4 athletes and coaches involved) , and always going to be a cocky winning team, but the people putting on the race should keep it held together. Can we not all agree USAT needs to fix this issue in one way or another? No matter what the outcome, we can't have the team title being changed at the awards ceremony every other year. (Yes, this is 2 out of 3 years now)

StroBro- I was actually correct in my assessment that no top 10 teams would wear sleeves. As I said the whole sleeves issue is more with inexperienced DL athletes. I just checked and every top 10 team had regular uniform except Queens. I sorta figured all those athletes would know and understand the rules and also have coaches that will confirm any issues. As I said it's the inexperienced teams that likely came with only 1 uniform and likely never checked or got inaccurate info at the time of ordering kits. These are poor college kids who likely get 1 kit a year, hell probaly 1 kit for a career. The MTR rules are the last thing on their mind when ordering kits for those "participant" athletes who also are likely on teams with little to no coaching oversight.


And with that- I'm bowing out of this conversation! Let's hope they look to making some changes that clarify the rules much better going into 2020 when it's back in Tempe again!

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

 


I should clarify, I’m not against rules per se, and not a proponent of an arms race (like that one?) but a collegiate level, club sport, should have the most liberal use of clothing rules, that are still part of triathlon rules in general, whether its DL, shortcourse, Longcourse, etc. Sleeves are allowable on longcourse, sleeveless on DL, combine the two clothing rules and allow both. If someone wants to rock less coverage, using a speedo or jammers, and that’s all they can afford, let them do that... if they want to show their naval, so what? I guess being in the sport for many years and seeing shortcourse to IM athletes win in all sorts of outfits over the decades, including Mark Allen dominating in speedo briefs and Paula Newby Fraser in two piece suits or Fernanda Keller with a Brazilian cut suit, frankly the different styles made the sport more laid back, and enjoyable.

I think making the sport more inclusive, more inviting to newcomers, and affordable at the collegiate level should be a primary objective of the rules, along with safety. When I was in college many moons ago, many triathletes also dabbled in cycling races, so our club uniform was basically a cycling skinsuit, with sleeves, and we raced bikes in it and did tris in them.

Sleeved suits, no. Arm sleeves, apparently OK.

Can we just address the elephant in the room here..

Colorado was butt hurt because they lost to a better team and got them DQed by technicality. It is poor sportsmanship. If they all raced butt ass naked, Colorado would have still lost and they know it.

hate to say it - but the rules are merky and gray and colorado won on a bullshit technicality and I no longer respect that team as a whole haha

Mr(s). Twinkie,

Cal won.

That is from WTS Edmonton, when it was cold AF... Again not sure USAT, but in terms of ITU, the Head Ref/TD always had the option to waive the no arm warmers rule /leg covering rule for extreme conditions... Now, arm warmers for AG racing are legal by default, and no longer require an exception, except during a non wetsuit swim... In the race pictured, it was definitely a wetsuit legal swim (if memory serves the swim was nearly cancelled because of the cold temps), so Summer's get up was kosher...

The content in race briefings are critical.... I've been at international championship events where decisions on rule enforcement had to be changed, based on briefing content that contradicted initial guidance... But all of this speaks to having clear and understandable rules...

I'm with you.... relax the rules or make them a lot more clear. Otherwise if I were running a college tri program right now I'd move to just sleeveless kits... my eyes are rolling around my head reading through this thread and trying to figure out how clear/unclear it is or was. It shouldn't be this hard... it's a sleeve and honestly over the course of a super sprint... seconds... maybe.

This!....summary : Petty protest takes advantage of USAT's dumbass, overly complicated rules

Well hell ya! Better then Col. Cal was nice enough to not even take the top podium. Respect

Col did move up a spot.

It was bullshit, weaker than circus lemonade, and just all around crap sportsmanship by colorado. They should be ashamed of themselves.

I think you are absolutely CORRECT on ITU discussion above and on needing to have clearer and internally consistent rules!

Also... in DL competition, I am pretty sure that all DL athletes are suppose to have their uniforms checked before even being allowed into the TZ to set up their bikes. If they were not checking, this probably should not be a MTR rule... just like many of the other more-strict, nuanced rules are relaxed for the MTR, with just the 12 basic "Draft-Legal Rules" that are enumerated on the USAT CCNC website being observed by the Officials. Further, the same website reads "This event is DRAFT-LEGAL and will follow draft legal triathlon rules." While true that the pre-race meeting can up-end the adherence to advertise/standard Rules for the event... it seems to have been the spirit of the MTR event at CCNC that the Officials purposely modified the enforcement of rules either right before or maybe even during the event, based on what they are observing en masse (e.g., no baskets, not citing for where cap/goggles/helmet are discarded, maybe not as strict on mount and dismount, uniforms too... I saw pictures a few years back where some athletes were bare-chested and not DQ'd [Clemson I think]). Maybe they decided it would have been unsustainable and sending the wrong message to disqualify over 1/3 of the field, understanding that most were there to have fun, not to mention it was likely a big money-maker for USAT to charge the extra entry fees too.
Whoever is running the program over there needs to work with the Collegiate Commission to get on the same page.

And yes... I think Queens bares a good deal of the responsibility as a top-ranked program. They should have known better. Bet they will pay more attention from now on.

Again, not sure USAT, but from the ITU perspective, every race could have uniform checks, regardless of whether or not they are draft legal...

That said, this is a learning moment for all involved...
- Queen's, being the clear dominant team, realize that you are under the microscope, so know the damn rules...
- Colorado, there are ways to win, and times that you should let it go... two years ago, I had the chance to get a race winner DQ'd that would have bumped me to the overall win, he missed the run turn-around and cut roughly 45sec of running, the thing was, he was 5min up the road, so whether his time was 45sec faster or not, he clearly was the strongest in the race (on paper he beat me by 6min instead of 5min), and I wouldn't have wanted to win that way, so I never protested... I was happier with a legit second, than with an ill-gotten win... For sure it was his responsibility to know the course, but I'd rather be sporting, than petty...
- USAT/NCAA commissioners... clarify the rules, there can't be a convoluted unenforceable mess of rules and expect to have fair, sporting, and safe racing... You need clear rules that are enforced consistently, and where exceptions have been granted, make that clear (i.e. in the race briefing, either exempt sleeves or don't)... That will make the races more enjoyable and your official's lives much easier...
- Athletes bare the responsibility for knowing the rules... If they don't, they are putting themselves at risk for sanctions. In the collegiate club setting, at a minimum the coach should know the rules and brief their teams... That said, the rules need to be clear, and understandable in order for this system to work.

https://www.teamusa.org/...eKgCmvy3aJWS53zAJMfo

Overturned.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

Hard not to applaud that decision.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Not surprised. In the end USAT just looks like a giant joke because of all this. Hopefully they wake up and realize there are some serious changes that need to be made with writing, enforcing and making rules public knowledge.

I agree. It was maybe the correct ruling but made in bad faith and applied inconsistently. You gotta imagine USAT will pay way more attention to this and other "minor" rules in the future. Overall a good call.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

I'd argue the system worked. An appeal was filed with Hearings & Appeals Committee and the call was overturned, much like a higher court overturning a lower court's decision. The question I still have is what was the competition committee thinking at race site?

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#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

Yeah, you're right that it did work but if USAT was on top of their rules and making sure they were clear and known then this would have never been an issue.

I appreciate the complete lack of transparency on why they called it one way and then decided to over rule it. Really helpful for everyone.

Agreed that an explanation of the decision process would be nice, but I'm totally supportive of where it has ended up.

If I had to guess at the less official thought process:

_Letter of the law, they got DQ'd
_Expected some backlash, got more than expected
_Realized internally that the rules were very murky, and were followed haphazardly
_Let some common sense apply and decided, given the above, to let the clear best team win while they clarify the rules for next year

To be honest, as much as I like rules I never would have taken part in filling such a petty protest. I hate intentional cheaters, but I can see a defendable ignorance claim here. Clearly USAT did as well.

I guess in the end it'll have a positive impact though, assuming they clean up the rule book.

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Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4

Don't disagree. I'd just keep in mind that on-site officials at most races are volunteers who give up their weekends, working 10-12 hour days so others can have fun. They often have very little experience or training. They get little positive affirmation for showing competence, and instant abuse in moments of incompetence. They get harried all day, and are burdened with a lot of tasks. It's not hard to make mistakes, particularly the mistake of trying to make the person in front of you happy rather than thinking about the bigger picture.

If it is who I think it was, I believe that the head ref at that race was quite experienced and knowing how he is, I am not surprised he made the initial DQ. Glad that it was overturned...

Yeah I would agree with that statement. I have worked races before (not as an official but rather setting up the race course and everything) and those are longggg days so I get the whole tired and just wanting to get by part of that. I don't personally know any of the officials but I have been at that race for that past 6 years and the head official has always seemed very experienced.

It's really too bad none of the athletes on Queens will be able to celebrate this national title together since they don't actually live in the same state and are online MBA students taking 6 credits.

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

Update on the Queens situation- head coach Sonni Dyer spoke on the incident on the Queens Sports Network podcast