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Re: Calling Vail Residents [techknowgn] [ In reply to ]
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I'll never understand the sentiment that believes what we, as a society do with such a perpetrator should be based on what we think he will learn.

Well, that's just the age old dilemma between retribution and rehabilitation, right? Its been argued for at least 3000 years, and there's no sign that its going to be agreed upon by consensus in the foreseeable future. Better to just accept that some people consider the purpose of a legal sentence to be punishment for the crime and others see it as a means to try to prevent the offender from doing it again. Still others think that it should be a mixture of the two, with varying levels of emphasis. But the room to disagree doesn't even end there ... we can rapidly get into the same kinds of moral quandries that perplexed the egyptians, greeks and romans (among others): does it punish a rich man more to lock him up or take away his wealth, or should we do both?

There's no point pretending that there are any easy answers to these questions. Still, what is so offensive about the DA's actual justification is the implication that he would have pressed on for felony charges if the accused was less well off and/or did some other kind of job. There's still plenty of moral grey zone in there, but I think that at the core of that distinction is something that most people find at best unsettling and at worst reprehensible.

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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan,

Given the explanations provided by the lawyers in this thread (and you friend's statement on FB), do you view this case any differently than when you first read the Vail Daily article?

Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [techknowgn] [ In reply to ]
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You clearly did not have to do what Dr. Milo and Mr. Haddon wished, but what other charges could you have levied?


This was my concern from the very beginning, but not how you're thinking. We didn't know from the beginning what the victim wanted, but it seems we do now and that isn't enough for people? I'm sorry, I know why you're emotionally involved Mr. Rapp, and I know why cyclists and triathletes are emotionally involved, because of the number of people hit on bikes. But it feels like this is a bit of bandwagon justice (I wont go as far as lynch mob mentality), and to me this is folly. Just my opinion, and I do understand the sentiment. But this case, with the plantiff and defendant on board with the justice being served, is frankly not something we should be in the middle of, concerned citizens or not.

I would agree were it not for the REASONING shown by the DA. My outrage is tied to the reasoning the DA used and not necessarily to the plea itself.

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit


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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [kathy_caribe] [ In reply to ]
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I would agree were it not for the REASONING shown by the DA. My outrage is tied to the reasoning the DA used and not necessarily to the plea itself.

Fair enough. But the failure to articulate a proper response to our questions doesnt outweigh the rights of the victim, which in this case do indeed seem to be held prominent. In he initial outrage indicated by the victim in the news story, I dont put much weight in that. There's clearly a settlement/civil case in the offing, and anything the plantiff says publicly must be seen in the light of what they'll be positioning for in the financial process.

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You don't have to like what I say but you should respect my right to say them and I'll do the same to you.
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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are you saying that you now generally agree with the decision(s) the DA has taken?
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [dawhead] [ In reply to ]
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Letter sent:
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Mr. Ritter-

I grew up in Colorado as an avid athlete, running cross country and cycling for Western State, and later University of Northern Colorado and I still have most of my family in the Denver area.

This case is really upsetting, as it appears that the DA for Eagle County is plea bargaining out a felony level hit and run because of the wealthy financial status of the individual in question.

This really does send a bad message. In an age where drivers are increasingly distracted, we should be pursuing greater punishment for infractions like these, not more leniency, especially in a state that prides itself on outdoor activities.

I urge you to consider and take any action that you can to reinstate felony charges. I understand the DA doesn't want to take chances with a jury trial, but I submit that the pursuit of justice is the goal, not the pursuit of a favorable win/loss case ratio.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [Sparks] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan,

Given the explanations provided by the lawyers in this thread (and you friend's statement on FB), do you view this case any differently than when you first read the Vail Daily article?

Not really. I tend to think that the DA is in "CYA-mode." It would have been very easy to explain the decision in this way the FIRST time around. In the first article, he clearly stated that he rejected Milo's request for a deferred judgment and settlement felony because of the impact it might have on his job. 10,000+ signatures on a petition later, 1,000s of emails later, and all of sudden it's because "he couldn't stomach the idea of Erzinger's record being expunged in two years?" That's a valid explanation for making the decision he made. However, it would have been a lot MORE valid had he made it at the outset. I'm sure I'm very biased and jaded, but given the public outrage the first article created, I'm biased into thinking that this is just spin.

Here's what I think. If DA Hulbert was clearly so "outraged" by what Erzinger could have done, he could have charged him with a felony and let a jury decide his fate. The facts of the case are pretty clear. I understand that a plea is cheaper and easier, but I don't think that makes it right.

If someone commits an egregious crime, I don't think a misdemeanor plea is appropriate. Hulbert could have - and should have - charged Erzinger with a felony. Of course a jury might not have convicted him. But if I were in Dr. Milo's shoes, even given the rational explanation given the *second time around,* I would be livid.

To draw an extreme, if you shoot someone in cold blood, I'm fairly sure you'd take a plea to manslaughter. But the DA should never offer that plea. And that's how I feel about this case. I bet Erzinger would have pled to a felony, ultimately, in exchange - for example - for no jail time. That - to me - would have been appropriate. This was a sweetheart plea deal, in my opinion.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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In trackie clm's post Cathy mentions Morgan Stanley have a cycling team:

"http://www.teammorganstanley.com/

Morgan Stanley sponsors a cycling team."

I clicked the link and at the top of the page it appeared that they, like you Jordan, are sponsored by Specialized...

A call to the teams management AND Mike Sinyard at Specialized to make them aware of the case might be pertinent...

Just an FYI...
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I am not a lawyer, nor associated with NASD. So, I could be completely wrong in my understanding here, but I don't think that I am.

From doing some reading and research, a big reason for not having Erzinger plea to a felony ( even the deferred option that was discussed ) seems to tie into NASD disclosure rules.

Felony convictions, obviously are required to be reported.

Felony *charges*, regardless of disposition, are also required to be reported.

Misdemeanor charges or conviction, are not, unless the charge involves some type of theft, bribery, perjury, etc.

The plea certainly seems to be designed to allow Erzinger not to have to disclose the incident to the NASD and have it appear on his CRD.

http://www.iard.com/..._users_man_mod14.pdf

It also does seem that even though Erzinger could get the deferred felony plea sealed after 2 years, that it would *not* be removed from his CRD ( so the courts would seal it, but NASD would not ). This is something I'm not sure of, perhaps someone with more understanding of NASD and CRDs can clarify.

So, like Jordan, I don't fully buy the explanation we are now hearing. Just seems a little too convenient that it was pled down in a way that avoids Erzinger having to disclose it to the NASD, and the initial comments from the DA to the Vail Daily ( which haven't been refuted ) that the DA didn't want to impact Erzinger's job.

-Chris

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I ride Felt.
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Posted a reply from Congressman Jared Polis on the first post.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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What a weak ass repsonse they gave.

Is there anything we can do to contact the judge to see the misdemeanor can be turned over to a felony or is that what the petition is for?
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [cam2win] [ In reply to ]
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What a weak ass repsonse they gave.

Is there anything we can do to contact the judge to see the misdemeanor can be turned over to a felony or is that what the petition is for?


Actually, you really do not want politicians interjecting themselves into the criminal justice system - it can lead to all sorts of mischief.

Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Last edited by: Sparks: Nov 10, 10 20:06
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [coredump] [ In reply to ]
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I spoke with my Dad, who IS a lawyer and who was an in investment banker for many years (and who's filled out more NASD forms than he can count). His belief is the same as yours - felony charges must be reported.

So my father's *assumption* is that even if it is purged from his record, he still has to report it to the NASD. As you said - the courts would seal it, but NASD would not.

However, that's only my father's assumption. Being that he, like I, doesn't like making assumptions, he's putting me in touch with a friend of his who is a criminal law professor specializing in white collar crime. She was a former SEC employee, and her answer will not be an assumption. So I'll report back once I *know* the answer to this question.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan....

Love ya man, love the fact that you are willing to put your name on this "cause" and run with it. But, according to the DA the victim in this matter was on board with the plea deal. According to the DA who was man enough to reply to the pubic out cry - nothing can be changed. What is the end game here? What is the desired result? We (he) cant change the plea, the deal has been made and the signatures are in place.


If this is a distraction from your time preparing to kick some serious ass at IMAZ once again - I am behind you eleventy billion percent. Seems however that this thread is just heading toward disappointment as we just plain can not change what has already happened in our less than fair legal system. To that, if the victim has some big plans for a HUGE settlement from the douche bag driver - will your (our) efforts hinder that?

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [R10C] [ In reply to ]
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Actually, the victim was NOT on board with the plea. In the first article, "'We have talked with Mr. Haddon and we had their objections, but ultimately it's our call,' Hurlbert said."

There are a couple *potential* "endgames."

One is the judge sees the public resentment of the deal and vacates the plea. Hulbert is an elected official. As much as he says there's nothing he can do, I'm sure he might like a "do-over" on this one, and I'm sure that discussions like that happen with judges. So either Hulbert asks the judge to vacate the plea or the judge just decides to do it. In that case, then it's important that spotlight is on Hulbert and what he then decides to prosecute Erzinger with.

Another potential "endgame," and one that I'd find very satisfying, although not quite as satisfying as a felony conviction, is that this story becomes so public and such negative press that MorganStanley basically has to fire Erzinger. Having a father who's seen the darkest sides of the financial industry, I'm sure *someone* will hire Erzinger if he makes money, but I think that putting a bit of a black cloud of Erzinger would still go a long way towards actually providing some justice. I think Dr. Milo could draw some satisfaction from Erzinger's life being at least a little upended after what happened to him.

Lastly, and this is a BIG one. There is landmark legislation being discussed in the Colorado state legislature that would significantly increase the criminal charges that could be filed for hitting a cyclist. Right now, even in the "best case scenario" that we all wish the DA had charged, it's still a relatively minor charge. One of the big problems is that if you hit a cyclist while driving, and you actually admit to it (not hit-and-run), there's very little they can charge you with criminally. Distracted driving, maybe. But the proposed legislation in Colorado would make it a much more serious offense. But that legislation is going to need a lot of support to pass. And if we can make this story a big enough deal, that's going to give policy makers in Colorado a lot more ammunition along those lines.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Jordan:

A minor issue, I notice you consistently omit the 'r' in Hurlbert's name. While I don't know the current extent of your direct communications with him or anyone associated with him, I think you'll agree that, in general, it doesn't look as good if you continually misspell his name as you/we lobby for legislative change and reference this case.

All the best,

Joel
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [jdw] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Joel. I hope that's not a sign I need glasses. Maybe time to increase the default size of the font on my computer. Anyways, I honestly thought it was Hulbert, but of course, it's not. I will make sure to spell it correctly from here on out, if only for the sake of Google! ;)

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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GREAT summary of the case with lots of legal info: http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadrights/

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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A few days old... but the latest development with a hearing date and time later this week:

http://velonews.competitor.com/...-day-in-court_152315
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [draught legal] [ In reply to ]
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Dec 16th Hearing in front of Court where the victim gets to speak to the plea offered and the ADA gets to try and defend his offer. This should be interesting. If any ST'ers are near they should go, attend and give a full report.
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [draught legal] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
A few days old... but the latest development with a hearing date and time later this week:

http://velonews.competitor.com/...-day-in-court_152315

So according to that article, this guy has already violated the rules of his profession. Apparently he should have already reported the felony charge.

Question to those in the know: I assume that there are consequences for failing to report. What happens next? Does somebody have to bring some sort of complaint against him, or does FINRA police this themselves? How does it work?


----
Michael
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [Experior] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
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A few days old... but the latest development with a hearing date and time later this week:

http://velonews.competitor.com/...-day-in-court_152315

So according to that article, this guy has already violated the rules of his profession. Apparently he should have already reported the felony charge.

Question to those in the know: I assume that there are consequences for failing to report. What happens next? Does somebody have to bring some sort of complaint against him, or does FINRA police this themselves? How does it work?

I've been trying to find out answers to some of these questions, but no luck so far. Jimmy Archer and James Huang have both talked about going to the proceedings, and I hope they do. I've been in touch with some of the top folks for bicycle advocacy in Colorado, and I'm hopeful someone from their group might go as well.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Rappstar -

I used to have a Series 6 and Series 63. Felonies must be reported. Even if only charges. Some firms will pull your license even if the NASD doesn't. Depends on the ethics of the firm.

My former boss (a real spoiled brat) was drunk. Got in a car wreck killing the driver instantly with his BMW 740. My former boss only had glass cuts to his face. Blew a .26 - cops didn't know how he was able to start the car he was so hammered. The driver's fiance "lingered" on for 3.5 months in ICU ultimately passing away due to the injuries she sustained. That firm didn't take his license as he pled "no contest" and didn't get a murder charge - "Only" manslaugher x2. He paid the families $15M and they didn't go after his business. Judge took his license for 8 years - no driving. No prison time. Had a lot of "buddies" testify for him and he kept his license/business.

Sickens me to this day. I had left his group about 10 years before this.

Keep up the pressure.
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [Experior] [ In reply to ]
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I have a 7 and 66 and worked for a while for a few major brokerages. Generally speaking you are required to report any felonies as has already been mentioned. I'm sure he's disclosed it as a case this public he could never hide. But it may not reflect on brokercheck or anything like that because it's still a pending case and also it takes time for FINRA to update things.

These things are very hard to hide, if the broker chooses not to disclose them, they will eventually show up due to background checks and so on. I've seen a few brokers get DUI's and try to hide them, somehow it was discovered anyways and they were fired for not disclosing them. I've also seen new hires not disclose misdemeanor charges from when they were juveniles (just charges, not convictions) and they were fired when it popped up on the background check.

Having said that, this guy is a huge broker. The firm will let a lot of it slide because he is a huge revenue generator for the firm. It's not surprising, but how much the firm is willing to put up with is entirely dependent on the fees this guy makes. I've seen some really big hitters get away with tons of client complaints, DUI's, etc. because they did so much business. I've also seen small time brokers get cut for having bad credit.

It's actually amazing the things that FINRA and firms can find out. I've seen guys get reprimanded for not disclosing that they had a $1k bad debt from a previous business. Or they had a brokerage account at another firm they forgot to disclose. Very, very small stuff. It's very big brother.

Long story short, even with a felony charge, this guy has a shot at remaining in the business. But, with this much bad publicity, I'd bet that a lot of his clients will be hesitant to do business with him. He deals with $5MM + accounts, those are not people who want their broker to have bad publicity.

In Reply To:

So according to that article, this guy has already violated the rules of his profession. Apparently he should have already reported the felony charge.

Question to those in the know: I assume that there are consequences for failing to report. What happens next? Does somebody have to bring some sort of complaint against him, or does FINRA police this themselves? How does it work?
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Re: Calling EVERYONE To Action! [jkuo] [ In reply to ]
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Latest update - "New Car Smell." Seriously...

http://www.vaildaily.com/.../NEWS/101219942/1078

I feel terrible for Erzinger. He's been inundated with a deluge of emails and phone calls. That's almost exactly like what happened to Dr. Milo... Oh wait, it's NOTHING like that.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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