I've done the clydesdale thing and finally figured I'd leave that to the guys who are really big. Now I'm working on kicking the crap out of the 150-lb age groupers. ;)

---

***

"Only those who are finding strength (and primarily on the bike) to be a limiter"

You have some darned good reasons for lifting weights--but please, let's put the above statement to rest for good.

I doubt there's a single person on this forum for whom "strength" is a limiter on the bike.

Lifting weights is great, it's just not going to make you faster.

you can lift like a girly man (for strength).

Girly man and strength should never be in the same sentence.

A person that lifts for strength follows a powerlifting protocol or specific strength-training program to lift as much as safely possible.

A girly man lifts in such a fashion as to not exert much effort or *god forbid* break a sweat.

In truth, it is rather difficult for the average guy to get significantly stronger (past the initial phase of increasing neuromuscular efficiency or "getting better at the exercises") without gaining significant bulk.

IMO, a triathlete that is training with weights and not looking to gain weight/muscle is most likely doing what would be called "maintenance training" ... just trying to maintain their current strength level or get a little stronger. "Training for Strength" is a completely different animal, and does not include girly men.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Hey who cares if it makes you faster or not :-). As long as your quads get ripped and you can see the individual muscle fibres in your calves, this is all that matters....well as long as my wife likes the look and I can train more, its all cool :-)

On the other hand ... who cares if you run really fast when your shirts look better on the hanger? ;)

=======================

Does this discussion only include the extremem views of "strength training will do anything ... even regrow scalp hair" or "strength training is useless". Aren't there any of us that train to get faster, and lift weights to get stronger and look better.

I think the question that needs to be asked in terms of strength training and getting faster is "what type of strength training"? I don't see where building a 315x12 squat is going to make you all that much faster, but "riding in big gear for 40 hard minutes" will. Both could be called "strength training" where one is heavier load for shorter time, and the other is lighter long for longer duration.

I definately don't see the rationale of taking the standard 3x10 strength-training scheme and just applying it to triathletes as if "it's the ticket". I don't know if triathlon coaches have even figured out what type of lifting is best suited for triathletes, I think quite a few coaches just take the standard-issue lifting-plan and give it to their clients. "Here, try this ..."

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Check out the National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA) is a treasure of legitimate resistance exercise protocols for virtually all sports and situations. They certify trainers and are the only, IMHO, worth while certification accreditation body active for sports specific strength and conditioning coaches. I once was a strength coach myself (1980's), working with track & field, football, triathletes, soccer, power lifters, Olympic lifters, swimmers etc.

For the record I strength train at the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm after neuromuscular efficiency. Very low reps, "heavy" loads, few exercises and complex multi-joint movements. A lot like a powerlifter might train. I gain a small amount of muscle weight in the off season but have seen strength gains through improving efficiencies in muscle fiber recruitment for many years.

Most people (without pharmaceutical assistance), in particular women, have to work very hard and specifically in the weight room to put on any muscle weight at all. For me the incidental muscle weight burns off with the winter fat, after about the first thousand miles on the bike. My "relaxed" weight would be around 200 lbs. but I try not to let it get over 190. I race at 174-176 without much hardship.

Does it make me slower? With my knees I don't think I can get much slower but I doubt that extra neuro-muscular efficiency has a negative effect. I'm not at a razors edge of training optimization but with my collection of chronic "hobby injuries" the improved joint strength and mobility and maybe some resistance to impact injury, definitely keeps me moving. Which I believe is faster than not moving.

I think you and jms hit on the important part of lifting with tri sport. Will it make you go "faster"? Debatable.

It should help with injury prevention. Your form should improve. Systems and muscles that don’t usually get trained will become stronger. Overall you will have less weak spots in body composition.

I say "should and debatable" because even with vast supply of data supporting both sides of the argument, no one can actually come out and say for a fact that anything besides running, biking and swimming is going to improve your tri performance.

Talk about nutrition, muscle building, alternate training methods, on season and off season is mostly tribal knowledge. There are so many variables that go into each that saying one way is better than the other is almost impossible to do. Every athlete will respond in a different way. Bottom line, the better conditioned competitor has the greater capacity to perform.

Anything you do beyond the basic program is looking for fractional improvement. It can help and it can hurt. That’s why doing anything extra needs to be monitored.

After all is said and done the person who is better conditioned and has the most guts or determination will win the race every time. The mind can be the most powerful body motivator of all.

OK girly man.

As much as I sing the praises of weight lifting/ strength training/ core work/ whatever you want to call it, I'm under no illusion that it's going to help my triathlon performance to a significant degree. When I'm under the gun to perform (such as now owing to a bet with this kid who thinks he can school me at an O.D. race in August. He's dreaming.), I make sure I swim/bike/run as much as I can.


I do the extraneous stuff because I enjoy it, just like I indulge in other sports every now and then. They help remind me that life is not just about S/B/R.

---

-----------------------------------------------------

I completely abandoned upper-body weight lifting when I got serious about Tri's...why? I don't think I could have improved anything about my tri performance. I had done military-style physical training for years (more muscular endurance than power) and got to the point where I was doing a combined 120 pullups, 300-400 pushups, and 600+ situps per workout. Continuing to do this only took time away from swimming, biking, running, and only added to the already top-heavy 200lb bulk I had built up over the years.

Recently just out of curiosity I jumped onto the pullup bar and cranked out 15 without having done ONE in 2 years. So - I'm not sure I really need upper-body weight training.

Lower-body - completely different story, and unless you were a power-lifter or pro running back who could squat 700lbs, then I think leg and core training can only help.

---

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I do the extraneous stuff because I enjoy it, just like I indulge in other sports every now and then.

Me too. I lift because I enjoy it and well, muscles are cool ... they never go out of style.

I was just pointing out that "training for strength" is generally associated with trying to significantly increase strength, and that it is usually in direct opposition to "girly men" ... who go to the gym to meet people, look at guys/girls, wear the revealing clothing, but really don't want to do any serious lifting. In short, I was saying that "you aren't a girly man".

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

You can call me girly man.

---

-----------------------------------------------------

Kestrelkerri....its all about how good you look. Keep lifting. If you aren't gonna beat Heather Fuhr across the line, may as well look good and do it with style along the way.

Just added 15 min of squats, step ups, calf raises and leg extenstions to my short lunch at run. I want to make sure that when I get to Ironman LP in 2.5 weeks if nothing else my legs look better than Triyoda's (should not be that hard).

Dev

"its all about how good you look"

You don't think I know this!? Come on, I'm a chick! ;) Now if anyone has any fashion, race apparel questions please feel free to send them my way. You guys may know about weights and gears and crap, but I know about what's really important!! :)

"I doubt there's a single person on this forum for whom "strength" is a limiter on the bike."
- - Over here, my friend, the old guy who gets dropped on the climbs but is OK at a double century.

Lifting weights is great, it's just not going to make you faster.
- - If lifting prevents injuries (and I believe it does) it will certainly make a contribution. Also, for those of us with weak legs (due to poor genes, age and injuries) need all the help we can get.

---

Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

I'm thinking Cousin Elwood is like 100 y/o!

Well, as Ric Stern once said, if you're 'elderly for infirmed', then you may not have enough strength....

But seriously, 2 quick points and I'll shut up on the topic, lest this become another 'Power Crank Vs. Tubular' thread....

1) If you're getting dropped on climbs, 'strength' almost definitely has nothing to do with it, unless you don't have adequate gearing on your bike. The strength requirements are quite low in endurance cycling.

2) You can believe that lifting prevents injuries, but the available research contradicts that thought.

I know he doesn't post on here anymore, so I'll post the link to the article he wrote on the subject. I think it's pretty good reading:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...ss/?id=strengthstern

I think you and my wife will be in agreement that my all black/blue darth vader racing gear just does not cut it on the fashion front. I certainly need a tri race suit makeover. Perhaps this is a concept for a new reality TV show. Kesterlkerri, goes in, throws out the lame race wardrobe of the guys and gets everything matching nicely so our gear nicely compliments our weight room generated cosmetic bulk (or lack thereof) :-)

Darth Vader Bike Suit from Tupper

That's awful, it's no wonder that truck is trying to run you over!

[reply]I'm thinking Cousin Elwood is like 100 y/o![/reply]

Yeah, but he's a damned good looking 100 yo!

Lifting...good.
My coach lifts and he's won the Ironman! ;-)

clm

---

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

There is a reason why most world class runners don't know where the weights are in the weight room, but do know where the treadmills are.

Paula Radcliff knows where the squat rack is in my gym in Albuquerque in the Spring when she comes to town for altitude training. She is not putting up NFL linebacker weight, but she is lifting a pretty good amount for sets of 10-15.

We have a pretty big contingent of Kenyan and Ethiopian runners that come here in the spring as well. You can often see them at the gym doing some strength training. Not much upper body, but a decent amount of legs and a TON of core work.

We see the world class runners spending a lot more time running than lifting, but they do know where the weights are.

"I'm thinking Cousin Elwood is like 100 y/o!"

You're very close!!

---

Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

"Yeah, but he's a damned good looking 100 yo! "
- - That's my whole "winning by attrition" strategy. As the only 100 yo in the race, I get to be the fastest, the best looking, the richest and the smartest. The older I get, the better I was.

"My coach lifts and he's won the Ironman! ;-) "
- - That's not possible. I've read the thread above, and lifting makes you slower.

---

Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

Well, as Ric Stern once said, if you're 'elderly [f]or infirmed', then you may not have enough strength....
- - Sadly, I am both

"1) If you're getting dropped on climbs, 'strength' almost definitely has nothing to do with it, unless you don't have adequate gearing on your bike. The strength requirements are quite low in endurance cycling."
- - My experience is that better climbers can go up the mountain faster than I can go 50 meters and can spin a gear in which I stall. I think that's a strength issue. It is also a femur length issue (femur:tibia ratio) because I get dropped by guys on the hill who end up with slower overall bike splits.

"2) You can believe that lifting prevents injuries, but the available research contradicts that thought."
- - That argument could go on all night as well. I know people (coaches) who feel both ways, and yet the athletes who strength train with me regularly experience fewer injuries. Some of that may be that I prescribe specific exercises to strengthen and rehab vulnerable and/or previously injured areas. I don't expect 6 sets of dumbbell curls to do much for weak knees.

"I know he doesn't post on here anymore, so I'll post the link to the article he wrote on the subject. I think it's pretty good reading:"
- - Interesting piece, however he does not address extreme sets for muscular endurance. As I mentioned in another post, it is understood by virtually all coaches that 3 to 5-minute hill repeats are more beneficial than 1-hour hill climbs. So while 3 sets of ten squats won't likely improve your cycling legs, 4 sets of 50 just might.

I also consider muscle tension intervals to be strength training. That's huge gear (or high resistance on a stationary) seated spinning at low rpms (necessitated by the huge gear). Jimmy Riccitello (among others) is pretty big on those.

---

Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

The brotherhood of the black tri suit! Do you have a good supplier for black racing flats?

---

Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

I agree.. I know I've posted this before, but if lifting is good enough for Molina, Allen, Scott, PNF, Reid, its sure good enough for me.

My friend and I have noticed a much higher strength level on the bike (which translates to a stronger run) after a winter of weight training. We don't have the luxury of year round riding due to cold temps, so any sort of advantage helps come late Feb/early March.

I also read the newest Triathlete mag detailing for the first time Peter Reid's 3 week focus period for Kona each year starting 6 weeks out going to 3 weeks out. Even with the pretty intense mileage, he still noted 2 weight training workouts each week.

I've just read too many accounts of greater strength/endurance to think it doesn't have a positive overall effect on performance. I have no evidence or proof to say this, but I also believe it aids in injury prevention by strengthening secondary support muscles.

The difference between you and all those guys though is that they have already run 80 miles, cycled a few hundred miles and swum god knows how many laps BEFORE they even think about adding weights to their training.

As someone up above very aptly, for us working stiffs weight training is often the icing on a half baked cake. Use your training time wisely.

---

----------------------------------------------------------
"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill