Well doh the added bulk will slow you down on the run. To run fast (relatively speaking), you need to float above the surface, and for that you need to be light and nimble.

I think there are two types of lifting. You can lift like a manly man (for bulk), or you can lift like a girly man (for strength). The former is guaranteed to slow you down, whereas the latter may not. Between you and me, I lift like a girly man because I haven't got the mojo to lift like a manly man (not that I want to either). My lifting does not slow me down any, and I feel that it protects me from injuries and makes me studlier in the big scheme of things. It is an integral part to my overall well-being, so why would I want to give it up?

Many times I do a ton of core work and call that "lifting". I'm sure the meat heads would laugh at that if they got wind of it.

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I believe the secret may be to lift lighter weights for longer periods of time. So instead of doing curls for 10 reps X 3 with 100 pounds, do 70 pounds with 2 sets of 15.
At least this is what I have always been told. Smaller weights, more reps.

Put on your flame-resistant pajamas, grab a six (or two) of beer, settle into a comfy chair, do a search on "lifting weights" in this forum, and read. Get back to us in about a week.

It isn't so much the weightlifting that is the problem, it is the added mass and lack of flexibility. If you can lift weights while maintaining or dropping your body weight, and also maintaining shoulder flexibility for swimming, you should be fine. But that may be easier said than done.

70lbs? Holy crap. I probably couldn't even roll that bar across the floor let alone curl it!

There's also the other issue of wanting to get fast at all cost. Sure you can pour all your energy into S/B/R to race triathlons faster, and that's fine if it's a short term focus of yours, but I can't see it being a sensible strategy for the long term. There's more to life than S/B/R, and in the end nobody is going to care if your all-time OD PR is 2:10 vs. 2:30. If you know deep in your heart that weight lifting is good for your health, you ought to embrace it and not feel guilty about doing it.

Let me also mention that weight lifting is excellent for folks who are injured, who are inherently weak, or who have weaknesses in their biomechanics. Those folks shouldn't look exclusively to S/B/R as the road to health.

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Lose the weights.

That was just an example. i don't lift weights at all (except for my food to my mouth) so I was guessing at the 70lbs :)

Lifting weights isn't the problem, it's a matter of tailoring your strength training to benefit SBR rather than mass and bodybuilding. It's all in how you structure your lifting. Personally I'd say there is no need to lift more than 2x per week for ~30min each. Stick with functional compound movements that strengthen your entire body (or at least a large portion of it). Your lifitng strategy should also change through the season along with your tri training...periodize based on your goals at the time. During prep and early base you can go heavier to develop more strength and probably a bit of extra mass. As you progress into the build and rece-prep phases you need to adjust your lifting appropriately. Shift towards power and force...that's where you take that strength and make it more functional for your sports. I personally drop lifting 3-4 weeks out from my A races. Although the soreness from lifting may be gone within a few days, your muscles can take weeks to completely recover from lifting so they need sufficient time to repair all of the damage before race day.

"I ran so much that I didn't have time to lift weights." --



You answered your own question. If you're peaking for a marathon or an Ironman, you should be riding/running/swimming so much that squeezing in gym time is low priority.

1. Religiously lift in your off season and base phase. Especially as you get older (approaching Master and beyond). Stretch, stretch, stretch.

2. Reduce or stop lifting as you hit your build / peak phases. Focus on race training. If you're running/riding intervals and hill repeats along with your normal LSD rides/runs, you're getting plenty of resistance work. You don't need to go pound out a big squat set or incline bench the next day.

3. Weight loss you described (7 lbs) is not from skipping the gym -- it's from the increased aerobic. And you're not losing significant muscle mass -- you're losing water weight and fat.

4. The "slow" down you describe may be normal fatigue during your peak training. A good taper will restore your energy levels and get you ready for race day.

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Bike Sherpa
Fully Assembled Bike Transporters
http://www.bikesherpa.com

I've experienced performance gains since starting a weight lifting program last year. I adopted the program used by Mark Allen:
http://outside.away.com/magazine/0297/9702festr.html

The weight lifting flame wars that occur on this forum are silly. Every physiologist and kinesiologist I've asked has said the same thing: an athlete can achieve higher power output by increasing muscle fiber density and mitochondrial count, both of which are attainable from a weight lifting program... HOWEVER, the increased power output is useless without the oxygen supply necessary to sustain the increased power output, meaning:
lift weights, but not at the sacrifice of SBR workouts.

That's the advice I've received from bonified (PhD), pocket-protector wearing lab nerds.

Whew, thank heavens. You had me quite worried :)

Everybody is different. You have to do what works for you. All of these triathlon training books are written for the majority but some of us don't fit into that group. I followed a weight lifting regimen during my training for last years IM CDA and I felt like it slowed me down. I was doing light weights and lots of reps like everyone recommends but I felt like it was making me tight even though I strecth on a regular basis. This year I completely blew off the weight training and concentrated on S/B/R and I took nearly 10 minutes off my IM CDA finish time. Worked for me but probably won't work for the majority.

I echo what others say, do what feels right. I get more grumpier in the gym as the season wears on..I just know I don't belong there and would rather be outside than stuck inside.

Traditionally I lift heavy in the off season and during season I can sit on the knee extension machine for upwards of half an hour doing light weight high reps. I lift different according to distance of races too. Shorter the distance the higher reps and lighter weight. Longer the distance I need the muscle and body fat to metabolize for energy since I always shut down the ability to eat.

The weight training has protected my joints from injury (although the broken bones and bone bruises I can't protect).

One thing I always remember, my old swim coach (cue 80s music) and he would not allow anything on the upper body to be over 20 lbs and anything on the lower body over 50 lbs. My training is about to be taken over from someone overseas so God knows what they will have me doing.

In the build and peak phases of training I'm a big fan of very basic excercises in the gym--ones that don't involve actual weights like push-ups, pull-ups, dips, etc. Your goal should be to approach you race weight and maintain it through a combination of your diet, basic(limited) excecises in the gym, and your training. Essentially, when you toe the line at your A race you want to look like a muscle wrapped around a lung--lean and wirery, like a greyhound.

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

Lifting only light weight and high reps is not the proper way to build appropriate muscle density. I could post volumes on this subject but the truth is the majority of folks here don’t want to listen to anyone who says lifting can and will improve your performance. It appears to me that everyone who has tried it and failed to get performance improvements is doing it all wrong. Most are all just taking some information that a few have posted on the internet and try to build a routine.

You absolutely must consult with a professional trainer that can work with you to tailor a periodized program that will complement your endurance training. It is important that the trainer have a background in both weight training and endurance training. Finding one that has a college degree in kinesiology would be your best bet if you can afford it.

Sitting on the knee extension machine for 30+ minutes is silly. In the 80s most coaches did not understand how to properly design and use weights in a training program. Well, unless they were in the Russian or German Olympic programs.

The program I am on now has me in the gym 3 times a week for less than 15 minutes. I do 2 exercises, 3 sets of 5, mostly compound movements. (deadlift 350lbs, situps with 125lb DB on chest etc.) This will change as I get closer to race day.

Most programs will have you go through various phases just like your endurance training. An example might be mass building, strength building & power application.

I would like to address the thought that lifting weights makes you tight. That’s one of the top 10 muscle building myths that gets spouted all over the place. This is wrong on so many levels. If you are lifting properly, and have the proper stretching program you can remain extremely flexible. If you go bike, swim or run and you don’t stretch you will get "tight" too.

The benefits of added density, strength and flexibility far outweigh the minimal time you need to spend in the gym to get it.

The problem is you are not doing enough weights. Load up on the squats and preacher curls for best results.

Swimming/biking and running are overrated ways to train for a triathlon.

:)

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

I guess that settles it.

;)

I've been lifting a weight daily for 15 months now. I started out easy at 7 lbs 10 oz, and have been adding weight steadily each day at an alarming rate. Currently, I am up to doing 23 lbs, and if things go well, will think about adding an additional weight in a year or so. Lately, I have started bringing my weight with me on some of my bikes and runs. I have a feeling that these weights will definitely make me a slower ironman, but thats the choice you make...

I've chatted with several PhD's in exercise phys about this same question. Will lifting weights make me faster? Their consensus is that it will probably not. Any research that shows yes can be shot full of holes in their opinion. Now someone is going to come and say if you can put out more power and develop that through lifting weights........I'd answer that muscular strength is not the limiting factor when it comes to increasing performance, swimming cycling even when climbing and running are sports where you are using a small % of the available muscular power for long periods of time.

Personally, I do not have my athletes lift weights, but if I did, I think you need to design it to mimic your sports. So it has to be specific to both the movment pattern that you would do when S/B/R and has to be specific to the metabolic demands that triathlon imposes. I personally am not convinced that even doing light weights for 3 sets of 15 reps is worth the time that it takes. Now if you were going to go do 10-15mins worth of reps of a sport specific pattern then you might get some agreement to let me let you lift weights.

There is a reason why most world class runners don't know where the weights are in the weight room, but do know where the treadmills are.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Lift leg weights all year. Get off them 10-14 days before your 'A' race and you'll be on fire, even at Ironman!

Dev

How old are you!? It's my understanding is it's not totally necessary for a guy in their 20's to lift. It's more important in the older years!! If you are bulky, I would do what others have suggested, more reps, less weight. I do two sets of 20 with a lighter weight for endurance.

Not to bag on you or anyone else that does this, but please explain to me how 40 reps with a rest between them will incresae your endurance? Do you only run/ride/swim for :30s at a time in a triathlon? If the avg person takes 85 stride cycles per min per mile and runs an 8:00 mile that is 1360 steps per mile X6 miles = 8160 times you have to move your leg to run. If you ride at 90rpm and ride for 2hours that is 10800 rpms. How is 40 squats going to help your endurance?

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

what is cool is that different things work for different people. Did you miss the part about in the off season I lift heavy? THat is where my bulk comes from and I am forced to do the lighter stuff (which is still way too heavy for me) in season. You have to vary or else no change ever happens--and that is with EVERY aspect of the sport.

I never wanted to sit on the leg thing for 30 plus minutes with high reps (that was implemented in the last 2 yrs), but that difference is what has helped me for days 5-10 in endurance events and has allowed that power to just be there when I am shot--so it does work (my personal results show it--even the last failed attempt the power in my legs with no lungs is what kept me out there), just not for everyone--and for those that are working up towards the multi-day races those single leg high reps I start at 35lbs then 50lbs then back to 35lbs for very high reps and I turn the foot for certain reps to target every aspect of the quad. For shorter races I am pulled way back, and those that are way more powerful at the ultras are the ones leading me and giving me my workouts--I never tell them they are silly, I often ask them what they are smoking.

I do agree that you need one on one consultation not over the net, but you can get ideas on the net and play around with what works for you. The hard part is finding someone that actually understands the body and how it works, not just the basic back and bis chest and tris stuff. Find someone as passionate about working out as you are about triathlons and you have the one you need.

Judging by this thread, that's an understatement.

Oh no....here we go again.

Hey who cares if it makes you faster or not :-). As long as your quads get ripped and you can see the individual muscle fibres in your calves, this is all that matters....well as long as my wife likes the look and I can train more, its all cool :-)

I completely agree every one is unique from dietary needs to training needs. For the best results you should consult a highly qualified trainer with experience creating winners. They will develop a program based on how your unique body moves, is composed, and responds to training stimuli.

You can create programs yourself by reading on the net. I’m not trying to knock it because that’s how I started off. I hit a plateau and thought I was pretty much done.

After hiring a trainer I have set new PRs and am progressing faster than I ever thought I could. I am also seeing how and where I went wrong in my own training. Now I am back in school at 30yrs old and studying kinesiology, nutrition and molecular biology.

"There is a reason why most world class runners don't know where the weights are in the weight room, but do know where the treadmills are."

Deena Kastor lifts weights 2-3 x week, as does Meb and Bekele (before you flame, I've seen them in the gym). The exercises are dynamic and movement-specific, as well as core-focused. Deena, for one, has a program designed for her by the strength coach at the USOTC. She believes it has been essential in her success.

I found when I was in college, I was much faster (5000m and 10,000m)when I lifted 2-3 x week. But again, everyone is different.

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Shawn
TORRE Consulting Services, LLC
http://www.TORREcs.com

I find it interesting that even the physiologists who feel that weightlifting could be beneficial tend to avoid stating explicitly that it will make one go faster. See David Martin and Peter Coe's book "Better Training for Distance Runner's" (Peter Coe is Seb Coe's dad). The authors are weightlifting proponents who devote the bulk of a chapter to emphasising the importance of weight/strength training, but mainly as a means of injury prevention. Almost all of the popular literature does exactly this.

Weightlifting will probably not make you any faster. This is especially true when one takes the time spent lifting weights and applies it to other forms of training. Will lifting prevent injuries? I don't know. Of course, there's the whole looking good at the beach issue...

A quick (and woefully incomplete) lesson in exercise physiology:

3 sets of 10 is dumb, no matter who you are! It doesn't train any of your energy systems optimally. 3 sets of ten is for rank beginners, just to get their bodies used to lifting. If you haven't lifted in a long time, do 6 weeks of easy lifting progressing into harder lifting.

Good lifting depends on your goal, but 3 sets of 10 is nowhere. You need to know why you're lifting and what you're trying to accomplish. I'll skip the stuff about hypertrophy (bulk) since I already know you don't want to go there.

Lifting should be done 2 or 3 times a week. Cycle for 8-12 weeks then change from strength to endurance or plyometrics for the next 8-12 weeks, then to endurance or plyometrics (whichever you didn't just do) and then take a short break before starting over. How much you lift should depend on the extent to which strength is a limiter for you. Also, the older you are, the more you should lift, because it gets harder for us fold arts to hold onto muscle mass (there's a double entendre in there somewhere).

Strength: For anaerobic sports (tennis, american football, baseball...) do sets of 6 reps with enough weight to cause total exhaustion. Then work two or three other muscle groups so that you don't repeat any exercise until the muscle used has had four minutes of recovery or (slightly) more. Then repeat all three or all four exercises on that four-minute cycle for 5-7 sets, or until you feel yourself wearing out.

Alternately, do pyramids starting with a weight where you can wring out 15-18 reps then add weight to each set until you need assistance to get 1 rep. If you're in good shape, that should be 6 or 7 sets (same 4-minute cycle)

For muscular endurance (valuable for all sports) do lower weights and one muscle at a time (work several muscle groups in a workout, but work each one individually). For more anaerobic sports do 4 sets of 15-20 on 90 seconds rest. Weight should be enough that you're barely able to complete the first set. Follow this program for 8-12 weeks. When you can do the same number of reps on the last set as the first, decrease rest between sets to 75, then 60, then 45, then 30 seconds. For triathlon, do 3 sets of 50+ reps.

Plyometrics is a book of its own...

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

talk to my coach! There was more involved, that was just one period of the weight regime! He also had me doing circuit type stuff and also Max lifting, so it was all mixed up. Now I'm lazy and just do 2 sets of 20! For me, it's better than nothing and I hate lifting!!!!!!!!!!!!

On a ride last week, I hit a SUV that pulled out in front of me as I was riding about 25 mph on my bike (its a long story I'll save for another thread). I hit the front passenger fender with my left shouder and left side of my body, went over the hood TJ Hooker style, and landed on my back in a ditch. I came out of the thing with just a banged up knee and sore shoulder - missed only a couple days of training. I lift weights regularly, go about 195 pounds (pretty solid), and while I certainly don't think I am indestructible, I do think that the fact that I am built like a brick shithouse helped me this time.

Am I slower? Maybe. But the fact that I took on a VW Touraeg and came out with just some bumps and bruises tells me that I should continue lifting.

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That's HOT! :)

If you hate lifting, ask your coach if that time could be better spent doing more time on a S/B/R. He would/should probably agree with you.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Dude, it's all about the six-pack...

Only one guy gets to finish first, but we can all look good!

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

Well being a 36 y/o woman I think it's important that I lift weights, no matter what the regime. Not everything is about triathlon for me. I don't have a coach right now, so the beauty is I can do what I want! ;)

As in almost every training discussion the answer will be different for each athlete. I would hazard a guess however that most AGers would benefit more from additional running than additional weight lifting. Most AGers are bigger than the Pros and would get a lot faster if they lost a few lbs.

Since, unlike the pros, most of us don't list triathlon as our profession and we have jobs to hold down and other commitments, we have to be more careful with how we manage our available training time. In my limited experience, just by looking at the average run splits in any given triathlon, most of us would be better served running more than lifting more.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Dude, spend the next off-season bulking up and go kick the crap out of the Clydesdales next year. You're only a few pounds short and I doubt you can win your AG at 195, even though you're obviously an awesome athlete (anyone who can do a TJ Hooker over a car hood at 25 mph should be doing stunts professionally!!)

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

"so the beauty is I can do what I want! ;) "

You're a babe, you can always do what you want!!

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

Perhaps you didn't notice the first sentence in the first post in this thread:

"Every single book or magazine I read tells me that lifting weights is a must for good triathlon performance."

The fact that not everything is about triathlon for you, while a wonderful attitude, is irrelevant to the OP.

"If you ride at 90rpm and ride for 2hours that is 10800 rpms. How is 40 squats going to help your endurance?"

Probably won't help a lot, but you don't have to do 10000 reps to build M.E. The key is to force the muscles to recover faster than they want to. Doing hill repeats or sets of 40-50 squats on 2 minutes rest will do that. Is it more valuable to climb big hills or do hill repeats? Literature is pretty solid that the hill repeats are better, even if it's only 250-350 reps (revolutions) at a time. If you do 30/30s, that's only 45 revolutions. That would indicate that sets of 40-50 squats could be extremely beneficial...

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

Dennis, the point is that very few healthy people are strength limited when it comes to triathlons.

And what is it about muscle mass that contributes to triathlon performance? I thought it was all about capillarization and mitochondrial density, not fiber cross-section.

I was responding to desert dude as to why I'm even lifting weights when I don't enjoy it. Relax dude and follow the thread.

My apologies, trying to avoid thread drift.

As always my friend, you are right on. Only those who are finding strength (and primarily on the bike) to be a limiter, or who are older than dirt (like me) should lose sleep over scheduling their strength sessions. For the rest, lifting is icing on a cake that might not be fully baked.

My deal is that I like to lift because, although I'm a pro triathlete in the sense of being a coach, I don't want to be as skinny as I'd need to be to consistently win my AG. Also, I've got leftover injuries that curtail my running, so it leaves me time to lift. Many years ago, I was a damn good runner and was running 80-120 /week. In the last decade or so, my biggest week has been around 50. This year, I'm averaging about 10 miles a week because injuries are flaring and my PT, Chiro and Ortho are working OT!! So I do gonzo ab and upper body workouts to maintain my youthful (?) physique...

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

"And what is it about muscle mass that contributes to triathlon performance? I thought it was all about capillarization and mitochondrial density, not fiber cross-section."

Muscle mass is more of an issue when you eventually get to my AG (55-59) and beyond. And enhanced fiber cross-section is not a big contributor to endurance, as you so deftly noted. Obviously enhanced fiber cross-section means decreased mitochondrial density and greater diffusion distance for blood and oxygen, regardless of capillarization. However, enhanced strength is helpful, especially for climbing.

If you want to see a good example of cycling improved by lifting, see what it did for Bruce Bursford (may he rest in peace) who went on a lifting tear with a big-time strength coach and then came back and broke worlds records.

Of course he already had a great aerobic engine...

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

No, it isn't. You don't need to be stronger to climb better, you need to have a better aerobic engine. Climbing on a bike doesn't approach maximal muscular demand ("strength").

Lifting heavy doesn't necessarily bulk you up either. I lift heavy, with a gradual build, in the off-season and through base. (Off season and base overlap and may even be considered the same thing for me.) I'll start two weeks into October and finish up a couple weeks into January. After that, I don't hit the gym for the rest of the year. That doesn't mean I'm done with any strength or core training, only that I either do it on the bike or at home (core), and without weights.

I've done the clydesdale thing and finally figured I'd leave that to the guys who are really big. Now I'm working on kicking the crap out of the 150-lb age groupers. ;)

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"Only those who are finding strength (and primarily on the bike) to be a limiter"

You have some darned good reasons for lifting weights--but please, let's put the above statement to rest for good.

I doubt there's a single person on this forum for whom "strength" is a limiter on the bike.

Lifting weights is great, it's just not going to make you faster.

you can lift like a girly man (for strength).

Girly man and strength should never be in the same sentence.

A person that lifts for strength follows a powerlifting protocol or specific strength-training program to lift as much as safely possible.

A girly man lifts in such a fashion as to not exert much effort or *god forbid* break a sweat.

In truth, it is rather difficult for the average guy to get significantly stronger (past the initial phase of increasing neuromuscular efficiency or "getting better at the exercises") without gaining significant bulk.

IMO, a triathlete that is training with weights and not looking to gain weight/muscle is most likely doing what would be called "maintenance training" ... just trying to maintain their current strength level or get a little stronger. "Training for Strength" is a completely different animal, and does not include girly men.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Hey who cares if it makes you faster or not :-). As long as your quads get ripped and you can see the individual muscle fibres in your calves, this is all that matters....well as long as my wife likes the look and I can train more, its all cool :-)

On the other hand ... who cares if you run really fast when your shirts look better on the hanger? ;)

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Does this discussion only include the extremem views of "strength training will do anything ... even regrow scalp hair" or "strength training is useless". Aren't there any of us that train to get faster, and lift weights to get stronger and look better.

I think the question that needs to be asked in terms of strength training and getting faster is "what type of strength training"? I don't see where building a 315x12 squat is going to make you all that much faster, but "riding in big gear for 40 hard minutes" will. Both could be called "strength training" where one is heavier load for shorter time, and the other is lighter long for longer duration.

I definately don't see the rationale of taking the standard 3x10 strength-training scheme and just applying it to triathletes as if "it's the ticket". I don't know if triathlon coaches have even figured out what type of lifting is best suited for triathletes, I think quite a few coaches just take the standard-issue lifting-plan and give it to their clients. "Here, try this ..."

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Check out the National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA) is a treasure of legitimate resistance exercise protocols for virtually all sports and situations. They certify trainers and are the only, IMHO, worth while certification accreditation body active for sports specific strength and conditioning coaches. I once was a strength coach myself (1980's), working with track & field, football, triathletes, soccer, power lifters, Olympic lifters, swimmers etc.

For the record I strength train at the opposite end of the spectrum. I'm after neuromuscular efficiency. Very low reps, "heavy" loads, few exercises and complex multi-joint movements. A lot like a powerlifter might train. I gain a small amount of muscle weight in the off season but have seen strength gains through improving efficiencies in muscle fiber recruitment for many years.

Most people (without pharmaceutical assistance), in particular women, have to work very hard and specifically in the weight room to put on any muscle weight at all. For me the incidental muscle weight burns off with the winter fat, after about the first thousand miles on the bike. My "relaxed" weight would be around 200 lbs. but I try not to let it get over 190. I race at 174-176 without much hardship.

Does it make me slower? With my knees I don't think I can get much slower but I doubt that extra neuro-muscular efficiency has a negative effect. I'm not at a razors edge of training optimization but with my collection of chronic "hobby injuries" the improved joint strength and mobility and maybe some resistance to impact injury, definitely keeps me moving. Which I believe is faster than not moving.

I think you and jms hit on the important part of lifting with tri sport. Will it make you go "faster"? Debatable.

It should help with injury prevention. Your form should improve. Systems and muscles that don’t usually get trained will become stronger. Overall you will have less weak spots in body composition.

I say "should and debatable" because even with vast supply of data supporting both sides of the argument, no one can actually come out and say for a fact that anything besides running, biking and swimming is going to improve your tri performance.

Talk about nutrition, muscle building, alternate training methods, on season and off season is mostly tribal knowledge. There are so many variables that go into each that saying one way is better than the other is almost impossible to do. Every athlete will respond in a different way. Bottom line, the better conditioned competitor has the greater capacity to perform.

Anything you do beyond the basic program is looking for fractional improvement. It can help and it can hurt. That’s why doing anything extra needs to be monitored.

After all is said and done the person who is better conditioned and has the most guts or determination will win the race every time. The mind can be the most powerful body motivator of all.

OK girly man.

As much as I sing the praises of weight lifting/ strength training/ core work/ whatever you want to call it, I'm under no illusion that it's going to help my triathlon performance to a significant degree. When I'm under the gun to perform (such as now owing to a bet with this kid who thinks he can school me at an O.D. race in August. He's dreaming.), I make sure I swim/bike/run as much as I can.


I do the extraneous stuff because I enjoy it, just like I indulge in other sports every now and then. They help remind me that life is not just about S/B/R.

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I completely abandoned upper-body weight lifting when I got serious about Tri's...why? I don't think I could have improved anything about my tri performance. I had done military-style physical training for years (more muscular endurance than power) and got to the point where I was doing a combined 120 pullups, 300-400 pushups, and 600+ situps per workout. Continuing to do this only took time away from swimming, biking, running, and only added to the already top-heavy 200lb bulk I had built up over the years.

Recently just out of curiosity I jumped onto the pullup bar and cranked out 15 without having done ONE in 2 years. So - I'm not sure I really need upper-body weight training.

Lower-body - completely different story, and unless you were a power-lifter or pro running back who could squat 700lbs, then I think leg and core training can only help.

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I do the extraneous stuff because I enjoy it, just like I indulge in other sports every now and then.

Me too. I lift because I enjoy it and well, muscles are cool ... they never go out of style.

I was just pointing out that "training for strength" is generally associated with trying to significantly increase strength, and that it is usually in direct opposition to "girly men" ... who go to the gym to meet people, look at guys/girls, wear the revealing clothing, but really don't want to do any serious lifting. In short, I was saying that "you aren't a girly man".

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

You can call me girly man.

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Kestrelkerri....its all about how good you look. Keep lifting. If you aren't gonna beat Heather Fuhr across the line, may as well look good and do it with style along the way.

Just added 15 min of squats, step ups, calf raises and leg extenstions to my short lunch at run. I want to make sure that when I get to Ironman LP in 2.5 weeks if nothing else my legs look better than Triyoda's (should not be that hard).

Dev

"its all about how good you look"

You don't think I know this!? Come on, I'm a chick! ;) Now if anyone has any fashion, race apparel questions please feel free to send them my way. You guys may know about weights and gears and crap, but I know about what's really important!! :)

"I doubt there's a single person on this forum for whom "strength" is a limiter on the bike."
- - Over here, my friend, the old guy who gets dropped on the climbs but is OK at a double century.

Lifting weights is great, it's just not going to make you faster.
- - If lifting prevents injuries (and I believe it does) it will certainly make a contribution. Also, for those of us with weak legs (due to poor genes, age and injuries) need all the help we can get.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

I'm thinking Cousin Elwood is like 100 y/o!

Well, as Ric Stern once said, if you're 'elderly for infirmed', then you may not have enough strength....

But seriously, 2 quick points and I'll shut up on the topic, lest this become another 'Power Crank Vs. Tubular' thread....

1) If you're getting dropped on climbs, 'strength' almost definitely has nothing to do with it, unless you don't have adequate gearing on your bike. The strength requirements are quite low in endurance cycling.

2) You can believe that lifting prevents injuries, but the available research contradicts that thought.

I know he doesn't post on here anymore, so I'll post the link to the article he wrote on the subject. I think it's pretty good reading:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...ss/?id=strengthstern

I think you and my wife will be in agreement that my all black/blue darth vader racing gear just does not cut it on the fashion front. I certainly need a tri race suit makeover. Perhaps this is a concept for a new reality TV show. Kesterlkerri, goes in, throws out the lame race wardrobe of the guys and gets everything matching nicely so our gear nicely compliments our weight room generated cosmetic bulk (or lack thereof) :-)

Darth Vader Bike Suit from Tupper

That's awful, it's no wonder that truck is trying to run you over!

[reply]I'm thinking Cousin Elwood is like 100 y/o![/reply]

Yeah, but he's a damned good looking 100 yo!

Lifting...good.
My coach lifts and he's won the Ironman! ;-)

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

There is a reason why most world class runners don't know where the weights are in the weight room, but do know where the treadmills are.

Paula Radcliff knows where the squat rack is in my gym in Albuquerque in the Spring when she comes to town for altitude training. She is not putting up NFL linebacker weight, but she is lifting a pretty good amount for sets of 10-15.

We have a pretty big contingent of Kenyan and Ethiopian runners that come here in the spring as well. You can often see them at the gym doing some strength training. Not much upper body, but a decent amount of legs and a TON of core work.

We see the world class runners spending a lot more time running than lifting, but they do know where the weights are.

"I'm thinking Cousin Elwood is like 100 y/o!"

You're very close!!

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

"Yeah, but he's a damned good looking 100 yo! "
- - That's my whole "winning by attrition" strategy. As the only 100 yo in the race, I get to be the fastest, the best looking, the richest and the smartest. The older I get, the better I was.

"My coach lifts and he's won the Ironman! ;-) "
- - That's not possible. I've read the thread above, and lifting makes you slower.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

Well, as Ric Stern once said, if you're 'elderly [f]or infirmed', then you may not have enough strength....
- - Sadly, I am both

"1) If you're getting dropped on climbs, 'strength' almost definitely has nothing to do with it, unless you don't have adequate gearing on your bike. The strength requirements are quite low in endurance cycling."
- - My experience is that better climbers can go up the mountain faster than I can go 50 meters and can spin a gear in which I stall. I think that's a strength issue. It is also a femur length issue (femur:tibia ratio) because I get dropped by guys on the hill who end up with slower overall bike splits.

"2) You can believe that lifting prevents injuries, but the available research contradicts that thought."
- - That argument could go on all night as well. I know people (coaches) who feel both ways, and yet the athletes who strength train with me regularly experience fewer injuries. Some of that may be that I prescribe specific exercises to strengthen and rehab vulnerable and/or previously injured areas. I don't expect 6 sets of dumbbell curls to do much for weak knees.

"I know he doesn't post on here anymore, so I'll post the link to the article he wrote on the subject. I think it's pretty good reading:"
- - Interesting piece, however he does not address extreme sets for muscular endurance. As I mentioned in another post, it is understood by virtually all coaches that 3 to 5-minute hill repeats are more beneficial than 1-hour hill climbs. So while 3 sets of ten squats won't likely improve your cycling legs, 4 sets of 50 just might.

I also consider muscle tension intervals to be strength training. That's huge gear (or high resistance on a stationary) seated spinning at low rpms (necessitated by the huge gear). Jimmy Riccitello (among others) is pretty big on those.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

The brotherhood of the black tri suit! Do you have a good supplier for black racing flats?

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

I agree.. I know I've posted this before, but if lifting is good enough for Molina, Allen, Scott, PNF, Reid, its sure good enough for me.

My friend and I have noticed a much higher strength level on the bike (which translates to a stronger run) after a winter of weight training. We don't have the luxury of year round riding due to cold temps, so any sort of advantage helps come late Feb/early March.

I also read the newest Triathlete mag detailing for the first time Peter Reid's 3 week focus period for Kona each year starting 6 weeks out going to 3 weeks out. Even with the pretty intense mileage, he still noted 2 weight training workouts each week.

I've just read too many accounts of greater strength/endurance to think it doesn't have a positive overall effect on performance. I have no evidence or proof to say this, but I also believe it aids in injury prevention by strengthening secondary support muscles.

The difference between you and all those guys though is that they have already run 80 miles, cycled a few hundred miles and swum god knows how many laps BEFORE they even think about adding weights to their training.

As someone up above very aptly, for us working stiffs weight training is often the icing on a half baked cake. Use your training time wisely.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

It aids my performance. I believe in it and race faster because of it and know of many who have also improved: one of those "working stiffs" who commutes into NYC daily, has two kids and went 9:40 in Kona last year (a year in which he added weights seriously).

I don't know why people can blow off their benefits so easily.

Hey, I'm glad if my competitors don't believe in them.

I'm with Slayer. If it is good enough for the best it is good enough for me. I'll take a 45min run plus "15 min burn till ya drop leg weight session" any day over a straight 60 min run. Better yet 30 min run-15 min leg weight-15 min transition run. Feels just like you got off a 100 mile bike.

Definitely.

Not to sound like a broken record, but in its worst aspect, I've never heard of it being detrimental to anyone. I know there is the argument of another swim, bike or run vs. weights, but a 30 min weight session twice a week can be tacked on after an hour swim if need be.. would an additional 30 mins in the pool be of more benefit vs. a weight session? I don't think so, but for those who do, have at it and enjoy!

Like I said before, the winters and springs that I didn't hit the weights regularly I didn't have nearly as much power. But that's just me... a sick bastage!!

Slayer, I just try to tack on 15 min of weights to three runs per week. This makes it easy. I am totally warmed up, I am done the "quality run workout" and then I just do leg weights in a circuit till my legs turn to rubber :-). It is very time effective, especially if I am on a business trip, I can maintain all my cycling muscles

Thats like saying you coach drinks beer and that is the reason he won ironman or your coach did ab work and that is why he won the ironman.

The point that everyone should be taking from all the research (for any sport) is the principles behind what is written, not what actually is written then ask if those principles apply to each person's specific situation. If so then figure out how incorporate those principles not the program in the book.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

WOW, how did I miss this idiot thread???

A lot of people here (ST) bash weight training - I don't do it myself because I don't have easy access to a gym. If I did I probably would.

What I find odd are the constant remarks about squats etc.. being a waste of time yet you watch the trailer for the new 'What it Takes' movie and what do you see, Reid and Bowden in the gym working those legs.

Don't believe me....http://www.witmovie.com/clips.php

Gordo also mentions weight training quite a bit.

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Searching for the bliss of ultimate exertion.

paulo,

whats your take on this? does sergio lift?

thanks

Just went back to read the whole thread, good things that my good friend The Stover is fighting the good battle :-) My views are similar to The Stover.

And the answer to you question is NO.

"I don't know why people can blow off their benefits so easily"

Why?

Because there have been a number of studies that have been done in many endurance sports( swimming, running, cycling, xc-skiing etc. .) that show there is little or no connection between any form of classic weight lifting and performance improvments in those sports.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Weight lifting is the 1% solution. When you are close to or have maxed out the 99% that your genetics gives or allows you, then MAYBE then again maybe not weight lifting will give you the :02 second advantage.

I honestly think it is probably more beneficial for the top itu racers where anaerobic capacity is more important for the final finish sprint or sprinting up to a pack then for IM athletes.

Maybe PR and LB read Friel's book ;-) then figured they should go to the gym instead of the pool.

I'm out, time to go fake work for the day so I can catch a flight at lunch to race sans weightlifting of course ;-)

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Fleck,

FWIW, I think you Brian and Paulo offer sound training advice. I know you did most of your competitive training/racing in Vancouver and now live in Southern Ontario so the winters are more severe now but what do you think of running on a treadmill?

I would much prefer to run outdoors and 99% of the time I can so it's not a weather issue but is there any other benefit to doing a treadmill workout. I can think of one advantage being a controlled pace but would think you can accomplish that just as well outside.

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Sorry to hi-jack the thread, but to answer your question directly, I think that Treadmills can have a place, for an athlete who lives in a real winter environment.

I never used one, as my personal preference is to always get outside regardless of the weather. Winter is a great time to log some solid running miles and not be too concerned about pace, HR, or other issues. Just get in the runs when you can - even if it is snowy and cold. The great thing about triathlon is that if it's really bad outside, you can do other things - swim or ride the indoor bike trainer.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I believe weight lifting should be part of training at the right time and in the right amounts, but Fleck is exactly right, empirical evdience just does not support the theory that lifting weights improves performance. Does it help prevent injury? I believe it does, and this is why I do it, and why I believe most pro's do also. I have a hard time believing that a leg session of 45min helps me more so than a well executed 2x20 workout on my CT(specificity!!). Here is a section from an excellent article that does a good job laying out the empirical evidence:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/...ss/?id=strengthstern

"There have been many studies conducted on strength training to assess specificity (e.g., Luecke, et al., 1998, Harris et al., 2000, Fagan and Doyle-Baker, 2000, Bishop et al., 1999, Rich and Cafarelli, 2000), which have shown no crossover in strength gains to a different exercise to that which was trained, even in similar exercises."

Furthermore, as strength training increases the amount of contractile properties within the muscle, and as the muscle undergoes hypertrophy, there will be a relative decrease in the volume of mitochondria (energy-producing bodies) within the muscle. Mitochondrion density increases with aerobic training."

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

Until we see someone take IM for 7+ years in a row that says they have never lifted and only swim, bike and run, you cant back up the statements that lifting has no benifits.

If I dont get hurt I can train more which will make me faster. If my body is better conditioned and stronger all around I am going to beat you.

Elites in cycling, tri and swimming do lift.

Read the latest issue of triathlete and check out P. Reids workout schedule.

IF you dont want to lift please dont.

As Brian Stover once said, "the plural of anecdote is not data".

You are going to beat me only if you can maintain a higher speed than me for the duration of the event. Being stronger doesn't guarantee that.

Elites in cycling, triathlon and swimming don't lift, too.

 
Elites in cycling, triathlon and swimming don't lift, too.[/reply]

I guess all the interviews, training articles, movies and pictures I've seen of cycling, triathlon and swimming elites weight training were all imagined then.

I do have a shitty memory, and am not going to go do research on this, but that statement is incorrect.

I guess all the interviews, training articles, movies and pictures I've seen of cycling, triathlon and swimming elites weight training were all imagined then.

I do have a shitty memory, and am not going to go do research on this, but that statement is incorrect.[/reply]The post to which I replied said that elites in cycling, tri and swimming do lift. I'm sure that is true. What is also true is that there are elites in those arenas who do not lift, as I said. That means that not all elites in these arenas lift; is that what you think the original claim was?

Gotcha, I took it out of context.

Apologies.

People look at the effect of weight-training on performance from one-dimension ... the so-called 'direct correlation'. In other words, they want proof that increasing one's squat poundage from 225x10 to 315x10 will increase their average cycling speed from 19.5mph to 20.4mph [as if it we really that simple].

Someone just pointed out the problem with this situation. Weight-lifting does help prevent injury, resists muscle breakdown, etc. So, if you're hurt less, breakdown less, and can train more, you will be "faster". That's an indirect correlation.

Performance increases, in any sport, come from whoever can sustain the most progressive workouts [that's why PED's are so helpful, you recover much faster, can workout harder and more often, etc].

======================

I also agree with the statement someone made stating "if you don't want to lift, don't". It's not difficult to look at photos of many triathletes and see that the last thing they want to do is strength-train. I think there must be a lot of triathletes that enjoy having the arms of an 8yo ... but, that's just preference. Honestly, I wonder how much all of this "strength-training improving performance" stuff is applicable to MOST triathletes? ... as if strength-training has been the missing ingredient that will take them from MOP to Top 5.

Strength-training is what is ... a tool in the tool box. As we all know, the right tool must be used at the right time in order to bring about the specific result we have in mind.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

No sweat. Do an extra set of preacher curls for me.

Will do.

Do my calves look fat in these capri pants?

<< Gotcha, I took it out of context.

Apologies. >>

Are you going all soft on us now, SHB?? ;-)



I love the "the plural of anecdote is not data" line, that's just priceless.

B-Sto is the man.



But, here's my anecdote anyway ;-)

I used to lift. I like to lift. I did it for many, many years. I liked how it made me feel, and look.

Now that my focus is on long course, I had to make a decision about my time budget, and where it would be best allotted. I don't lift anymore. I still do some bodyweight stuff 1-2x / wk (set of pushups to failure, ditto for pullups), and have lately been doing a bit w/some swim cordz, but nothing w/ the big iron.

All my nagging shoulder and elbow issues have since gone away. So, I'm actually holding up better now by NOT lifting, which goes contrary to the main reason that most give for doing it, injury avoidance. (in my n=1 experience, YMMV of course)

So, those who lift, be truthful with yourself - you lift because you like to do it, like how it makes you feel, how it makes you look. These are all vaild reasons.

Injury avoidance? I've gotten hurt quite a bit while lifting over the years... and my knees are shot from heavy leg presses and squatting. Better tri (or running, or biking) performance? Possibly, but unlikely, or at least not moreso than applying that workout time to the specific sport.

[/anecdote off]

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float , hammer , and jog

Soft, no.

Its just this whole Britney/KFed thing that has my heart in a knot and I'm being a little bipolar..

A devil-worshiping, lifting-loving, Rutger Beke-believing, sick geek like myself has feelings too y'know : )

I hear ya.

Look at the bright side (of the Britney/KFed thing) - you have a *slightly* better chance of banging her (or him, whatever floats yer boat) now than you did before!

Buck up, buttercup. Tomorrow is a brand new day.

PS - I'm sure you look just swell in capris. And I'm not just saying that.



Now drop and give me twenty!!! ;-)

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float , hammer , and jog

Even if you are just saying it, I thank you, and KFed thanks you.

Speaking of KFed, I think I need to renew my Tiger Beat Star subscription..

interesting opinion and I've heard all the arguments against weight lifting before. But its also interesting that Marc allen just had an article in triathlete saying that when he reached his mid 30's weight lifting was essential for him to reach his former speed (when he never touched weights). It's a well documented fact that you lose muscle mass when you hit your mid 30's and lifting is the only way to slow that down. Based on that fact, I'd say it's absolutely essential for people over the age of 35 to incorporate lifting into their weekly training. To argue against that is to argue against a biological fact...unless you think you'll actually get faster as your muscles get smaller and weaker every year.

Marc Allen also wrote that it was more important to lift twice a week than it was to get in yet another swim, bike or run, and he laid out a training plan that he followed.

So...unless people on this forum can say they could beat marc allen in his mid to late 30's without lifting, then I'm going say he's the man to listen too. He might know a thing or two about triathlons.

Okay, I'm 48, and I haven't lifted in a decade. What has happened to me, my speed, and my triathlon performance since I've skipped the absolutely essential lifting?

ok...i'll bite...could you beat marc allen's times in your mid to late 30's?

"It's a well documented fact that you lose muscle mass when you hit your mid 30's"

It's also a well-documented fact that muscle mass has little to do with aerobic performance.

No. Feel free to answer the question (and my performance relative to Mark Allen is irrelevant) about what horrible things have happened to me in the past decade, sans lifting.

hey...if you're happy losing muscle mass on a yearly basis then by all means stick with it.

Here are my 2 cents: I'm in the weight room twice a week. My goals are:

1. Work on weak areas. Strengthen those areas prone to injury: achilles/calves, IT/abd/adductors, shoulder/rotators, patellar tracking/medial quads, balance work, etc. Strengthen small muscles that come into play after the larger ones are fatigued in a long race. Injury prevention is #1 for me.

2. Core work. That still really falls under #1.

3. Strength work. There are 2 major indicators to do so: 1. masters competitors and 2. females. I think anyone in either of those catagories can benefit more than other people.

The weight lifters think I'm weird, because I don't do what they do. I'm not there to build great guns, and you won't catch me flexing in the mirrors.

and you won't catch me flexing in the mirrors.

... only b/c you do it when no one is looking. =)

I believe that is a universal thruth ... EVRYBODY in the gym flexes in the mirrors ... even when they're just walking by.

The weight lifters think I'm weird

True enough. Most people don't realize that some folks are in the gym for reasons other than getting "buff" or "ripped". Y'know how triathletes seemingly make fun of everyone that is not a dedicated triathlete? Well, those weight-lifting fools and wanna-be bodybuilders are making fun of the "150-pounder w/ 10-inch arms doing rotator cuff and core training" (preferably not in the squat rack). Everybody has to be superior to somebody else ... i guess.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

That sucks that you were lifting heavy and blew out your knees. You were obviously lifting as you stated "heavy". Shoulder and elbow injuries as well as tendon problems are common in those who lift "heavy" weights and those who lift without proper acclimation and form. Proper stretching can help alleviate some of these problems but going heavy is bad mojo.

Not trying to bash you but it is common for this to happen especially under extreme loads. It has happened to me which is one reason I don’t lift that heavy anymore. I don’t want to deal with the effects of 1600lb leg presses, 500lb squats and 600lb dead lifts anymore. Muscle pulls and tears happen under these loads and while you can still train "safe" at those loads eventually something will give.

There is no good reason to lift heavy for multisport. You are only begging for injuries.

I think what has been said time and time again is that you need to lift according to a program built by a professional that is monitoring your performance gains. For multisport it will most likely be a light to moderate weight & rep depending on what part of the peridozation cycle the athlete is in. You can’t take an off the shelf program and expect it work great.

This is the problem I have with most of the studies that I have read. They do things like train one leg with one exercise for a month, or have 20 people do the same preset exercise for a month. I am not aware of a study that has examined professional athletes over several years to see if the rate of injury is lower, performance greater etc. It is generally accepted in the professional training community that weight training with specificity leads to increased performance through both direct and indirect means in both endurance sports and power sports.

Something else I would like to add to the discussion is that weight training directly trains the cardiovascular system. It’s almost like many of you think that lifting weights will only make your muscles bigger. One of the ways to develop the most intense cardiovascular system is to lift. The heart and vessels directly support the muscular system. By using high intensity (not to be read heavy) weight sessions you can greatly improve overall cardiovascular performance and capacity to levels that you can not reach without it.

and to answer your question...you are losing muscle mass...and you have been losing muscle mass since you decided to leave the weight room in your late 30's.

I think a lot of people on this forum (and this isn't directed at you) immediately think that lifting weights equates to bulking up...which was not the type of lifting program that marc allen had laid out...and most people think they are adding a ton of muscle bulk because they are gaining weight, when the fact is they have put on a little bit of muscle and a lot more fat.

A-men

There is a huge difference in lifting to get buff vs. sport spec., core and injury prevention training.

so if Lance lost another 20 pounds last year, which in his case would be pure muscle, you don't think his performance would suffer, and in fact he'd maintain the same speed or even be faster??

by the same token, I don't think he'd be faster if he put on more muscle. But, I do think if he wanted to continue being the best in the world after his mid 30's, then he would have to incorporate lifting to maintain what he had.

"It is generally accepted in the professional training community that weight training with specificity leads to increased performance through both direct and indirect means in both endurance sports and power sports."

Really? I guess it depends on your definition of "generaly accepted"....

"By using high intensity (not to be read heavy) weight sessions you can greatly improve overall cardiovascular performance and capacity to levels that you can not reach without it."

That's B.S., pure and simple. Lifting weights isn't going to provide any 'cardiovascular benefit', except to the untrained...and suggesting that it somehow has some 'special' benefit that you can't reach without it is completely ridiculous.

"so if Lance lost another 20 pounds last year, which in his case would be pure muscle, you don't think his performance would suffer, and in fact he'd maintain the same speed or even be faster??"

Funny you should use Lance as an example--it seems that losing muscle mass from his pre-cancer days(along with body fat) is exactly what turned him into a grand tour rider.

I highly doubt that running at a caloric deficit sufficient for Lance to "lose another 20 lbs" would be beneficial.

I also think that his muscle mass has very little to do with his success as a bike racer.

So I gather you have no answer?

For the record, the last 40km TT I did (59:44 in 2004) was within :06 of my PR set 10 years before when I was about 35, single, lifting, and riding a lot more than I do now.

Sorry, didn't happen, if I can go by what I see in the mirror, and how my clothes fit. Hair, yes, but muscle? It appears not.

Do you think that lifting is the only way to counteract the effect of aging on muscle mass? Does the muscle somehow know whether it is pushing a stack of metal or a handful of water or a pedal in anger?

Yes there is a difference to both your muscles and your bones.

I'm all ears. Tell me how my latissimus knows whether I'm doing a lat pulldown or a freestyle pull.

Then how about posting up some examples of recent multisport and IM winners that havent done any weight or resistance training at all and only run, bike and swim. Lets also get the word from those professional trainers coaching professional competitors that dont recomend any resistance training at all.

Its been proven that lifting has huge impact on the cardiovascular system.

good for you...and no I don't think it's the only way to counteract aging.

The best way (as far as I know) is through the release of HGH/testosterone which can be taken through drugs , by lifting, or by doing very hard anaerobic exercise...so I stand corrected on that. I'll send you a cookie if you like ;)

I do have to wonder if there is a difference in the amount of hgh/testosterone released by the body when you lift weights as opposed to doing a very hard anaerobic workout. I don't know the answer to that, and I don't feel like looking it up.

As far as the difference between lat pulls and freestyle (as an example), I would say there are some other major differences. For instance, they are very different motions...freestyle works your rotator cuff/muscles a lot more than lat pulls. Also, the resistance level can obviously be quite different, so I would think that the weights in this example would do a bit better job of strengthening the ligaments and bone structure.

Unless you want to put on a ginourmous hand paddle and risk blowing out your rotator cuff. I'll pass on that option ;) I also know that I've never had a pumped up feeling after doing a hard anaerobic workout as opposed to lifting...so there's obviously something different going on in the body.

last (for me anyway), it takes a lot less time to do lat pulls than it does to get an anaerobic swimming workout...and I think that's a very big element when you're talking about masters athletes with full time jobs and family responsibilities.

btw...i will still take marc allen's advice regarding triathlons over just about anybody else's. It would be very hard to argue with a man who's had that kind of success.

"Its been proven that lifting has huge impact on the cardiovascular system."

I don't know where to start on that one...If you have some proof besides the tried/true Slowtwitch logic of "so-and-so did it, and he's winning", I'd be glad to hear it.

"Lets also get the word from those professional trainers coaching professional competitors that dont recomend any resistance training at all."

Well, you could start with the STRENGTH and conditioning coach of the AIS, who flat-out pans weight training for his "endurance" team. Bear in mind his endurance team consists of riders doing races of 5-45 minutes.....

You've been talking to some misinformed individuals, then, because there's no evidence that weight training will increase muscle respiratory capacity in individuals already performing endurance training. There's also really no good evidence that it will improve sustained power output in such individuals, either. (If done correctly, however, it may improve non-sustainable power output, and/or improve running - but probably not cycling - economy).

It's about time you showed up.

I have some one-legged, low RPM hill repeats to do.....

They wouldn't by anybody who really knows anything about the physiology of exercise and training.

Actually, muscle mass and hence strength are generally fairly well-maintained until the 5th or 6th decade of life, then begin to decline at a measurable rate. Thus, contrary to the recommendations of some popular coaches, the aging endurance athlete who wishes to preserve as much of their performance ability as possible as they get older should first look to trying to maintain their VO2max, since that starts declining sooner, and at a faster rate, than muscle mass/strength.

"huge impact" - you'll have to be a bit more specific

the best triathlon coach in the world, you know, the guy who's coached countless world champions, well, his athletes don't lift. just think how much better they could be if they took your advice.

So...unless people on this forum can say they could beat marc allen in his mid to late 30's without lifting, then I'm going say he's the man to listen too. He might know a thing or two about triathlons.

How do you know for sure that he would have been slower if he hadn't lifted?

You have to be careful drawing correlations between what others do and your own performance.

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Evidence?

"best triathlon coach in the world" is subjective.

because he said he was faster when he started lifting. I can't imagine he'd write that if it weren't true.

I don't have to be careful. I know how I feel and know from my training and performance.

either way, I admitted that I was wrong regarding hgh/testosterone release with regards to lifting vs anaerobic exercise. However, I still have some questions about it. My body feels very different after lifting than it does after a crippling hard anaerobic/vo2 max workout.

so my question is, why is it published quite often generally accepted by most people that muscle mass decreases starting in the mid 30's?

is it such a minimal amount that it doesn't really have an effect, is it just plain wrong, or is it something else??

My body feels very different after lifting than it does after a crippling hard anaerobic/vo2 max workout.

On that I would agree. In fact, I like weightlifting (in moderation) because I feel good and it allows me to exercise every muscle in my body, in a short period of time. I just don't believe it helps make you a faster runner/biker or swimmer and the scientific evidence appears to support that view.

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

They wouldn't by anybody who really knows anything about the physiology of exercise and training.

Well, duh.

I didn't say anyone "in the know" would.

Weight-lifting does help prevent injury[/reply]
Evidence?

Do I really need to list all of the triathlon, weight-training, sports specific training, articles, books, etc that state weight-training can decrease risk of injury? Can it include strength training to prevent naturally occuring strength imbalances? Balancing left/right strength? Balancing ab/low-back strength? balancing quad/ham strength? Or strength-training to thicken/strengthen weak bones that are more susceptible for fractures? Exercises to strengthen rotator cuff?

You remark "evidence" as if I am the first person to ever suggest that weight-training can be beneficial for injury prevention. It seems to be a universally (with few exceptions, I guess) understood correlation. While I am not averting doing the busy work, it would seem that the onus, in this situation, would be on those in the minority that are making the counter-claim.

I'll post some sources, and I have nothing vested, so am willing to change an incorrect opinion, if the case may be. I guess I'm asking to decide if this is time worthwhile investment on my part.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
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there are plenty of pervasive ideas out there that are just plain wrong. if the data clearly supports weight training for injury prevention, you should have no problem finding a few good sources.

you point to all the articles, books, etc. that is exactly the problem. just because a certain idea is widely disseminated doesn't make it correct. you can probably find an equal number of sources supporting the idea of stretching for injury prevention. reality is that there is no evidence for that either.

and for slayer's comment - i suppose it's ultimately subjective, but i don't think you'll find much disagreement among those who know these things. or if you want an objective measure, number of world champions would do it.

you point to all the articles, books, etc. that is exactly the problem. just because a certain idea is widely disseminated doesn't make it correct.

I certainly agree with that statement, and I am fond of the quote "If a million people say a stupid thing, it's still a stupid thing". Bad information has a way of sticking around.

you should have no problem finding a few good sources.

A quick google search for "strength-training and injury prevention" produces these links:

http://www.google.com/...nd+injury+prevention

By clicking on the "Scholarly articles for strength training and injury prevention" link you get these 21,700 articles:

http://scholar.google.com/...;lr=&oi=scholart

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Here's a sample I just pulled that seems to be a common theme:

http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/injury.htm Weak muscles

Many injuries are caused by weak muscles which simply are not ready to handle the specific demands of your sport. This is why people who start a running program for the first time often do well for a few weeks but then, as they add the mileage on, suddenly develop foot or ankle problems, hamstring soreness or perhaps lower back pain. Their bodies simply are not strong enough to cope with the demands of the increased training load. For this reason, it is always wise to couple resistance training with regular training.

Make It Specific

Resistance training can fortify muscles and make them less susceptible to damage, especially if the strength building exercises involve movements that are similar to those associated with the sport. Time should be devoted to developing the muscle groups, strength training, appropriate to the demands of your sport. If you are a thrower then lots of time should be spent developing muscles at the front of the shoulder which increases the force with which you can throw, but you must also work systematically on the muscles at the back of the shoulder which control and stabilize the shoulder joint.


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http://sportsmedicine.about.com/...rength1/a/092005.htm

Core Stability Linked to Injury Prevention

“Core stability training is a concrete way to improve balance, athletic performance, and potentially prevent a variety of injuries in people of all ages and fitness levels,” said John D. Willson, MSPT, co-author of the study, doctoral candidate and research assistant at the University of Delaware in Newark. “Because core stability is an important component of nearly every physical activity, we have the opportunity to further research the impact of core stability across the human lifecycle and within various age groups.”

================================

http://www.runnersworld.com/...8-169-0-9915,00.html

Build A Solid Foundation
Strength-training your legs helps you run strong and stay injury-free

"Here is the REAL secret to marathon success: Devote some of your precious training time to lower-body strength training. All the pavement pounding isn't building the muscles in balance, says New York City musculoskeletal therapist Jim Wharton, and you're asking for trouble when you overtax weaker muscles."

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http://www.ms-se.com/...0!-949856145!8091!-1

[I'm not a member, thus could not access the full text] Prescription of resistance training for health and disease.


Clinical Sciences Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. 31(1):38-45, January 1999.
FEIGENBAUM, MATTHEW S.; POLLOCK, MICHAEL L.

Abstract:
Prescription of resistance training for health and disease. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., Vol. 31, No. 1, pp. 38-45, 1999. When prescribed appropriately, resistance training is effective for developing fitness, health, and for the prevention and rehabilitation of orthopedic injuries.

=============================

One routinely sees suggestions to work on the "weak links" in their body ... usually lower back, obliques, and other muscles involved in "trunk stability" in order to decrease risk of lower back injury. Same deal with balancing pushing and pulling strength in order to prevent/correct shoulder strength imbalances that can/may lead to injury.

Also, going on the addage that injury increases with fatigue ... wouldn't a stronger muscle (relative) fatigue less quickly?

I guess I am unclear on exactly what type/amount of source you are asking for. I have no problem admitting that I do not routinely read professional peer-reviewed Exercise journals, and politely ask, if you have information readily available that suggest strength-training does not decrease risks of injury to provide them ... if for no other reason than to prevent me from skimming, copying and pasting articles/links, only to have you tell me "your sources are wrong". Fair request?

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Here's something I've found that might be useful.

http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo.html [/url]Bone

Tensile strength and elasticity of bones decrease about 2% per decade from age 20 to 90 years (Hayes, 1986).

Bone is only one fifth the weight of steel but can withstand two times the compression force as granite, or four times the compression force as concrete.

Weight bearing activities such as walking can prevent bone mineral loss. Weight resistive exercises can prevent bone mineral loss if the antigravity musculature is activated.

In animal studies, the first 40 repetitions of an exercise stimulates greater than 95% of bone formation. Additional repetitions do not significantly increase bone formation (Riewald S. Bone of Contention: What Exercises Increase Bone Strength? Strength and Conditioning Journal. 26, 1, pg 46-47.). [/url]Tendon and Ligament

Resistance training can increase the size and strength of tendons and ligaments (Fahey et al. 1975). [/url]Knee Stability

Closed chain exercises like leg presses and squats can improve knee stability. The stresses placed upon the joints and muscles during closed chained movements are more are more functional and offer more natural stresses on the body as compared to open chain exercises like leg extensions. Peterson, J.A, Bryant, C.X., Understanding Closed Chained Exercise, The Fitness Handbook, 2, 125-130, 1995. Youth Weight Training & Safety

Regular participation in a broad-based training program that includes resistance training can significantly reduce sports related injuries in adolescents.

Faigenbaum AD, Schram J (2004). Can resistance training reduce injuries in youth sports? Strength and Conditioning Journal. 26(3) 16-21. Strength Imbalance and Injury Relationship

Individuals with strength differences of more than 10% between the quadriceps of the right and left legs were more likely to sustain lower limb injuries compared to individuals without such strength imbalances (Bender et al, 1964)

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I'm probably going to regret bringing this thread back to page one, but since this topic comes up over and over-

Both Dr. C and Triple bring up excellent and valid points. As with all positions on the topic, people can always dig up studies on both sides of the equation of pro v. con concerning strength training being a benefit to endurance athletes. Dr. C's expertise and research make him a legit source, and Triple's sources are some of the more accepted ones out there.

However, it does go to show that out of 6 pages of posts, roughly 90% was "muscle & fiction" reasoning (i.e.- read it in a magazine, book, or internet website). It is amazing to hear (and in the past many of us, myself included, fall victim to some of the anecdotal evidence out there) how many people will take as gospel what a "coach" or magazine says. It's pretty phunny.

The optimal and specific strength training that may benefit endurance athletes is totally the opposite of slowtwitch dogma, judging from most of these posts. I will say that if anyone (specifically endurance athletes) out there is spending more than 15-20 minutes in the weight room, you're wasting valuable training time better spent on the run and bike...and no, it isn't "phunctional" training...which is probably the most misunderstood term out there in the strength training field.

However, breaking it down to a level of health/basic fitness v. elite competition, since 99.9% of the forum users fall into the category of health/basic fitness, there's nothing wrong with doing some non-specific strength training. Some get it, and most don't. If people do lift, at least find someone who knows something other than a weekend course in personal training or says they are a coach. Don't be afraid to question as well why a coach says "lift this" or where they get their information from.

See everyone at the races,

Rob

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http://www.reathcon.com

Good points..

I assume you were referring to Sutton. Of the top of your head, what other coaches don't really advocate weights? I'm just too lazy to go research. Does Watson or Carmichael?

I would also like to know why it is every time I've had an overuse injury the physical therapy to recover always involves strengthening (usually involving weight or bands) and stretching? For those that disagree with the use of weights for injury prevention...could you please answer that question?? Are my doctors and PT's also misinformed??? if so, then there are an awful lot of doctors who are wrong.

Also, if muscle loss doesn't really start happening until much later in life as you claim...then could you please explain why we don't see any 50 year olds in the olympics. If they are still willing and able to train like a 25-30 year old, then why don't we see any 50+ year olds competing on the world level? again...I would really like to know why we generally see such a drop off in performance in most professional athlete's after their mid 30's (well...before steroids and hgh came into the picture).

I'm not doubting that you and others here might be right...I'd just like to know why I should believe something that is the complete opposite of the most commonly held beliefs and flies in the face of what we see at the professional ranks.

You're confusing injury prevention with injury rehabilitation.


Because there's a lot more to Olympic-level performance than just strength/muscle mass, and because even a tiny decrement would be enough to prevent you from reaching such a high level of performance.

But hey, if you don't to take the word of someone who studies exercise and aging for a living, you're free to go read the research yourself...

Would you expect that somebody with a power-profile like Alejandro Valverde does a few specific exercises with weights? I'm considering doing some neuro-muscular specific work (that's my intention anyway, not 100% sure this is the best route) and I'm just not sure how much of a risk it is in regards to being able to recover from those types of sessions. Specifically, I was thinking of doing two main exercises; dead-lifts and leg presses. Only one main work set for each exercise, and that being a low rep (sub 5 reps) at very high loads. Previous to the work set of course I'd warm up and do the exercises with some gradually increasing weight, but only at low reps so as not to take away from my muscles capacity to work. Is this type of thinking far off base if my goal is to increase my 5 second power?

The sort of stuff you read in "...professional peer-reviewed Exercise journals".

I really have no idea.


Unless you've already reached a plateau by doing, e.g., standing starts and/or want to race on the track, I'd skip the weights in favor of something more cycling specific (like standing starts). I've seen people (like my wife) increase their 5 s power by 25% in just a matter of weeks as a result of this type of training (plus tapering).

Okay. I supplied some.

I don't feel the need (or really the desire) to go through all ~22K google 'scholarly' (or the 426 at PubMedCentral) entries regarding "strength training and injury prevention" and pull out each and every one that supports the position that ST does or can help prevent injury. The amount of time invested versus the "reward achieved" is simply not worth it. Basically I would get to do a lot of work for no reward. I don't see any benefit in "proving" (not a good word, I know) that strength-training helps or may help prevent injury, when it's already something that is accepted by most.

Again, if you are in the field, and know off-hand of convincing research that shows that strength training has no effect on injury prevention, I politely suggest it would be much simpler to just lay it out. I will read it.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Yeah, I agree that I don't how a statement like "weightlifting doesn't help injury prevention," can be made. The reality, in my opinion, is that every person has different needs and some may need time in the gym. Other's may not. Personally, I find time spent lifting to be beneficial to correcting muscular and structural imbalances (I work with a physical therapist/personal trainer group) and thus an important component of my triathlon training.

I m 46 ......if I do not lift weights.........I fade.........strength .....energy......etc......Dave Scott is right.

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I shall never misuse Rex Kwon Do
I shall be a champion of freedom and justice

Although you would be better off making the movement bike-specific, as in being on the bike and working specifically on your 5s power, the movements you're talking about (deadlift and leg press) are too "slow" of a movement to get that response which you're looking for.

DB power exercises may be a better way to go (DB snatch, clean, and squat jumps).

You also have to remember that there is a significantly less power output on the bottom-to-up pedal stroke. B/c of this, a higher cadence isn't how much you can "power" through the bottom and "pull up" on the back/up stroke, but more of "getting the leg out of the way" as the opposite leg starts to power down. So for power movements to mimic this, there needs to be a period of an "unweighted" element during the phase after concentric movement of the quad (or straightening the leg).

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http://www.reathcon.com

As with all positions on the topic, people can always dig up studies on both sides of the equation of pro v. con concerning strength training being a benefit to endurance athletes. Dr. C's expertise and research make him a legit source, and Triple's sources are some of the more accepted ones out there.

I would be interested to see the studies on the "con" side (i.e., ST doesn't help prevent injury). I admit that the seeming consensus that ST does help prevent injuries makes me wonder what exactly these studies show, and why so many, in their writings, ignore the findings of these studies ... but up to this point, in this thread, we've only heard that these studies exist. I would like to see them because they would have the significance that would be analogous to a "landmark case" in the field of EP ... or at least it would seem to me.

Evidence, research, and ideas, that could/would "topple the establishment" (i.e. drastically change popular opinion in one aspect) are usually exciting ... if they are within a field that one has somewhat of an interest. It would seem that many here have an interest in strength training, exercise, and preventing injury. It would seem that such studies would be both eye-opening and interesting to quite a few.

I enjoy strenth-training and recommend it to many people ... but I also freely admit I don't strength-train for "injury-prevention benefits" ... or even to "race faster". I think muscles are cool.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
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The difference here is that people like AC have read throughout the years those "all ~22K google 'scholarly' (or the 426 at PubMedCentral) entries" you found today in order to form their opinion (I would call that knowledge, but these days it seems opinions are favored over knowledge). OTOH, you think that "muscles are cool".

I for one, know which knowledge to trust... I'm sorry, I meant opinion... my bad...

The difference here is that people like AC have read throughout the years those "all ~22K google 'scholarly' (or the 426 at PubMedCentral) entries" you found today in order to form their opinion (I would call that knowledge, but these days it seems opinions are favored over knowledge)

That's exactly what I mean. In every thread on this topic the same pattern follows ...

1. People bring out examples of coaches, athletes, etc that use strength training and have success. There's some scuttlebutt about whether all that is evidence or anecdote.

2. A few people make the claim the ST doesn't help prevent injuries and/or improve performance, contrary to the consensus of coaches, specialists, etc (not necessarily scientists), and then say that "research supports this".

3. More people provide personal examples, and admittingly these are just "I feel it is working for me" stories.

But, at no time [or at least none that I have seen], are the examples/citations of the studies that conclusively show that 'ST does not help prevent injuries' (or improive race performance), that would [1] end the discussion (or should end the discussion), and [2] significantly change the opinions and claims of those that promote ST as a means of injury prevention and/or improve race performance (or at least should change the opinion).

It would seem that those in the field, and making the interesting claims, would provide those citations (rather than vaguely refer to them) seeing that they are very important to the back and forth going on here. I just want to know whether I should never repeat the phrase "ST can help prevent injuries" or not.

OTOH, you think that "muscles are cool".

Misrepresentation. It's fairly obvious that I said that to convey that I strength-train because I think muscles are cool (they are, really), not to race faster, or to prevent injuries ... to illustrate that I have no vested interest in seeing that those *myths* (if the case may be) get passed on to the next generation.

I for one, know which knowledge to trust... I'm sorry, I meant opinion... my bad...

What we have are a large group of coaches, athletes, etc touting strength-training as a means of preventing injury and/or improving performance. In opposition to that we have some that are saying "no, strength training does not, and the research supports that claim" ... so rather than just keep (essentially) saying "does not" "does too" "does not" "does too" "I'm smarter than you, does not", I would figure the side making the contrary (most important, in this situation) case would cite the studies and end the discussion and do the triathlon world a favor, specifically encouraging triathletes to take the time they spend strength-training and allocate it to triathlon training.

I am, not at all, showing any intentional disrespect to Andrew Coggan (and admittingly I do not know his background outside of what was described in this thread), and I would hope that no unintentional disrespect is felt. Certainly AC understands that this is an internet forum, and that lots of claims get made on the internet, and sometimes it is important and crucial to cite evidence in order to demonstrate the truth. I don't think AC would take that as an attack or challenge, do you? I'd be willing to bet AC would look at it as an opportunity to inform and educate a large group of misguided and wrongly influenced, but well-meaning, people.

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well put.

research papers are just that. you still have to produce the results on the race course. I don think a paper is going to change the tri world. when we start to see champions use new techniques to get to the top it will then be hailed as a break through. everyone will then stop lifting weights and emulate what the winners are doing. ala high cadence from lance and his coach. lance does lifting too though ;)

just to toss another log on the fire that you guys can flame...

Endurance racing will burn muscle fibres. To keep your muscle mass in check you need to do some muscle building work in the gym. obviously it needs to be controlled because your not trying to become a body builder but you do have to replace that mass.

I don think a paper is going to change the tri world.

If the results are repeatedly demonstrated, it should. Whether it would may be a different story.

when we start to see champions use new techniques to get to the top it will then be hailed as a break through.

Like 'breath right' strips? How did those things lose their effectiveness so quickly? What? You mean they were only 'for fashion'?!?!?!?! =)

everyone will then stop lifting weigh

I think it will take quite a bit to get everyone to stop lifting weights. The benefits (documented, reported, or otherwise) just seem "too well known/ingrained" for a quick change to take place. Even if the evidence is anecdotal (not saying it's limited to that), it still a convincing correlation for a good number of people. People will also likely feel that if their competition is lifting and they aren't then they are "missing out" or "falling behind". That's where the demonstrated research can come in handy.

We used to joke that one of the strongest PED's one could take is "Placebol" ... as in the mind is a powerful tool. As they say in Bull Durham, "if you think you're winning because you wear women's underwear ... then you are ..." If people feel that strength training is giving them a physical advantage, then it might also be giving them a mental edge or increased confidence. I'm not suggesting that be factored into the equation and research ... but the mind is a powerful weapon in the sporting arena.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Personally, I'm always in favor of ST, however, most fail to realize the parameters needing to be considered and the justification (or when) to strength train.

The aspect that most ALWAYS neglect about this topic is that strength training MAY or MAY NOT work for someone regarding strictly performance. Will it make a person more "healthy"? Yes. Will it make someone stronger? Yes. Can certain movements prevent and rehab injury? Yes. Will this translate into performance increases for endurance athletes? Questionable. Much of this deals with the individual prescribing the ST...if they know what they're talking about, the chances of a positive outcome are increased, but more research is needed. Skip to the bottom if no one wants to read some of the studies below (keep in mind also I'm biased to which of these I pasted here from the search I did).

...this abstract alludes that specific training will generally yield specific results, but also gives the possibility that more indepth assessments are needed prior to a ST regime other than "x" weight and "y" reps will get you better.

doi: 10.1519/1533-4287(2003)017<0503:CSAETT>2.0.CO;2
The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 17, No. 3, pp. 503–508. Concurrent Strength and Endurance Training: The Influence of Dependent Variable Selection

Michael Leveritt

School of Biosciences, University of Westminster, London, United Kingdom

Michael Leveritt, Peter J. Abernethy, and Ben Barry

School of Human Movement Studies, The University of Queensland, Queensland, Australia

Peter A. Logan

Department of Exercise Physiology and Applied Nutrition, The Australian Institute of Sport, Canberra, Australia

ABSTRACT

Twenty-six active university students were randomly allocated to resistance (R, n = 9), endurance (E, n = 8), and concurrent resistance and endurance (C, n = 9) training conditions. Training was completed 3 times per week in all conditions, with endurance training preceding resistance training in the C group. Resistance training involved 4 sets of upper- and lower-body exercises with loads of 4–8 repetition maximum (RM). Each endurance training session consisted of five 5-minute bouts of incremental cycle exercise at between 40 and 100% of peak oxygen uptake ( O2peak). Parameters measured prior to and following training included strength (1RM and isometric and isokinetic [1.04, 3.12, 5.20, and 8.67 rad·s&#8722;1] strength), O2peak and Wingate test performance (peak power output [PPO], average power, and relative power decline). Significant improvements in 1RM strength were observed in the R and C groups following training. O2peak significantly increased in E and C but was significantly reduced in R after training. Effect size (ES) transformations on the other dependent variables suggested that performance changes in the C group were not always similar to changes in the R or E groups. These ES data suggest that statistical power and dependent variable selection are significant issues in enhancing our insights into concurrent training. It may be necessary to assess a range of performance parameters to monitor the relative effectiveness of a particular concurrent training regimen.

...Same here, but also the notion of "no harm no foul" with ST...

doi: 10.1519/1533-4287(1993)007<0234:CSAETO>2.3.CO;2
The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 7, No. 4, pp. 234–240.

Concurrent Strength and Endurance Training of the Elbow Extensors

Peter J. Abernethy and Brian M. Quigley

Department of Human Movement Studies, The University of Queensland, Brisbane, Qld 4072, Australia.

ABSTRACT

The purpose of this investigation was to determine the effects of 7 weeks of concurrent strength and endurance training on the triceps brachii. Fifteen fit subjects were randomly allocated to endurance (TE), strength (TS), or concurrent (TC) training groups. Endurance training involved five 5-min bouts of incremental arm cranking at between 40 and 100% of peak arm ergometer oxygen consumption (P O2). Strength training involved two 30-s sets of maximal isokinetic contractions at 4.16 rad · sec&#8722;1. The TC group completed both strength and endurance training. P O2 and strength assessments were conducted prior to and following 2, 5, and 7 weeks of training. Isokinetic strength (T30) was determined 0.52 rad (30°) from full extension for 10 angular velocities between 0.52 and 5.20 rad · sec&#8722;1. Two weeks of training significantly increased T30 at all contractile speeds for the TS, TE, and TC conditions. T30 was further increased at all contractile speeds at Weeks 5 and 7 for the TE and TC groups, respectively. Seven weeks of training significantly increased P O2 in the TE and TC conditions, but not in the TS group.



...Possible validity for ST and competitive endurance athletes...

doi: 10.1519/R-16334.1
The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 19, No. 4, pp. 826–830.

Combining Explosive and High-Resistance Training Improves Performance in Competitive Cyclists

Carl D. Paton

The Centre for Sport and Exercise Science, The Waikato Institute of Technology, Hamilton, New Zealand

William G. Hopkins

Department of Sport and Recreation, Auckland University of Technology, Auckland, New Zealand

ABSTRACT

Paton, C.D., and W.G. Hopkins. Combining explosive and high-resistance training improves performance in competitive cyclists. J. Strength Cond. Res. 19(4):826–830. 2005.— In several recent studies, athletes experienced substantial gains in sprint and endurance performance when explosive training or high-intensity interval training was added in the noncompetitive phase of a season. Here we report the effect of combining these 2 types of training on performance in the competitive phase. We randomized 18 road cyclists to an experimental (n = 9) or control (n = 9) group for 4–5 weeks of training. The experimental group replaced part of their usual training with twelve 30-minute sessions consisting of 3 sets of explosive single-leg jumps (20 for each leg) alternating with 3 sets of high-resistance cycling sprints (5 × 30 seconds at 60–70 min&#8722;1 with 30-second recoveries between repetitions). Performance measures, obtained over 2–3 days on a cycle ergometer before and after the intervention, were mean power in a 1- and 4-km time trial, peak power in an incremental test, and lactate-profile power and oxygen cost determined from 2 fixed submaximal workloads. The control group showed little mean change in performance. Power output sampled in the training sprints of the experimental group indicated a plateau in the training effect after 8–12 sessions. Relative to the control group, the mean changes (±90% confidence limits) in the experimental group were: 1-km power, 8.7% (±2.5%); 4-km power, 8.1% (±4.1%); peak power, 6.8% (±3.6); lactate-profile power, 3.7% (±4.8%); and oxygen cost, &#8722;3.0% (±2.6%). Individual responses to the training were apparent only for 4-km and lactate-profile power (standard deviations of 2.5% and 2.8%, respectively). The addition of explosive training and high-resistance interval training to the programs of already well-trained cyclists produces major gains in sprint and endurance performance, partly through improvements in exercise efficiency and anaerobic threshold.

...and then the abstracts that typically get misrepresented b/c people take the stance that strength training is good for injury prevention, but fail to realize physiological parameters prior to training or the specific injury mechanism (such as q-angles, ACL diameter, and muscle strength), and then lump all injury into the "strength training improves all injury prevention"...

doi: 10.1519/R-13473.1
The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 18, No. 4, pp. 703–707.

Effects of a Knee Ligament Injury Prevention Exercise Program on Impact Forces in Women

Bobbie S. Irmischer, Chad Harris, Ronald P. Pfeiffer, Mark A. DeBeliso, and Kevin G. Shea

Center for Orthopaedic and Biomechanics Research, Boise State University, Boise, Idaho 83725

Kent J. Adams

Exercise Physiology Lab, University of Louisville, Louisville, Kentucky 40292

Kevin G. Shea

Intermountain Orthopaedics, Boise, Idaho 83702

ABSTRACT

Irmischer, B.S., C. Harris, R.P. Pfeiffer, M.A. DeBeliso, K.J. Adams, and K.G. Shea. Effects of a knee ligament injury prevention (KLIP) exercise program on impact forces in women. J. Strength Cond. Res. 18(4):000–000. 2004.—Previous research suggests high impact forces generated during landings contribute to noncontact anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) injuries. In women, neuromuscular differences appear to modify the ability to dissipate landing forces when compared to men. This study examined peak vertical impact forces (Fp) and rate of force development (RFD) following a 9-week, low-intensity (simple jump-landing-jump tasks) and volume (number of foot contacts per workout) plyometric-based knee ligament injury prevention (KLIP) program. Female subjects were randomly assigned into control (n = 14) and treatment (n = 14) groups. Treatment subjects attended KLIP sessions twice a week for 9 weeks, and control subjects received no intervention. Ground reaction forces (Fp and RFD) generated during a step-land protocol were assessed at study onset and termination. Significant reductions in Fp (p = 0.0004) and RFD (p = 0.0205) were observed in the treatment group. Our results indicate that 9 weeks of KLIP training altered landing strategies in women to lower Fp and RFD. These changes are considered conducive to a reduced risk of knee injury while landing.

Bottom line:

1) Strength training increases strength (obviously), but it is specific gains from the adaptation

2) ST may or may not translate into increased endurance performance, but is less likely to "hurt" performance overall. You do have to consider the time factor for this one- we all have limited time, and we all know time in the saddle and pounding the pavement has been proven to make one faster, but time in the gym may not.

3) Injury prevention is specific to the predisposition of the individual and focus of the prevention. Simply "lifiting" with the hopes of injury prevention is a waste of time if that is the primary focus.

4) Muscles ARE cool (awesome statement Triple- very honest, direct and to the point).

5) Most who ST have no idea why and will often take the advice of some yahoo shamon in the middle of the chinese rain forest as gospel, as well as the "miracle" Rx to go with it. The 30-60 minutes spent ST-ing would probably be better spent on the S/B/R, or learning how to ST more effectively so they spend less time in the gym and possibly getting the advantages from it (or likewise not making themselves slower).

If done correctly, ST may or may not make you a better athlete, and will provide better health and fitness. Done incorrectly, and performance may suffer some, but not enough for most of us to care or notice.

See everyone at the races- hopefully looking like muscle-toned stud's and studette's rather than little boys and girls...

Rob

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http://www.reathcon.com

But to also address some of your comments more specifically rather than some random abstracts posted-

I mispoke with the "pro v con" statement, b/c it's not so much "con", but injury prevention is specific to the predisposition and the training prescribed to address it. That's one when people say "do leg extension to strengthen the knee and prevent injury" don't have clue one of what they are talking about.

The evidence and research that I am talking about is not groundbreaking- it's been there for decades. Over the years, people have dumbed down the training programs to a simple, anyone-can-do-it, approach so that even Mr. Beaver Cleaver across the street can get the benefits (which is a good thing). However, for optimal performance I personally believe that power movements, plyometrics, and movements with acceleration should be the focus (in individuals who already have the basic 2 sets of 12-15 reps of a 6 week training program, etc etc etc). It also shouldn't take long (ex: 80-100 hits for the plyo's specific to running and cycling, 4x4 of a power movement, and one compound strength movement of 3x8 ), roughly about 15-25 min with rest included, and some abs, pushups, and pullups done periodically to compliment.

History proves that everything moves in cycles- and if I had to make a prediction I would say that people will start in the next few years going back to more grassroots power/calisthenic training and quit wasting time with their 40,000 low weight reps and changing the angle of the foot on the leg press to get all parts of the quad.

But, once again, I agree with you- muscles are cool. It's just not cool (and this is not directed at you) when people do or don't do ST programs just b/c they read it in a magazine or heard it from a coach. People need to get some facts and then decide for themselves.

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http://www.reathcon.com

"just to toss another log on the fire that you guys can flame...

Endurance racing will burn muscle fibres."



I've got to get my hands on this research- where is it located???

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http://www.reathcon.com

I haven't read this entire thing, so I don't know if any of this has been covered...

- When you run, your quads are your shock absorbers. If you are really light, this will be less of an issue. Otherwise, you will want to build these guys up a little.

- You also don't want to become too quad-dominant. If you do, it will seriously limit your running efficiency. So hit the hamstrings.

- There are other sport-specific resistance training exercises you can do that will improve your core strength (a must), and your form. Things where you combine hip extension with some kind of arm swing or torso rotation.

Obviously, you don't want to get huge, but there are some benefits to lifting. Just don't overdo it.

Why read the whole thread and have your ideas challenged and maybe even learn a thing or two, when instead you can just spew off the stuff that you believe to be true?

I hold degrees in Kinesiology and Biology, and I am an NSCA Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist. I have read the research, and I am pretty confident that what I say is true. That is why.

Oh, you're in the weight training business... I'm sure it's purely coincidental that more and more only those are still recommending weight training for endurance training.

Like a coach good friend of mine once said, "there are many reasons why you should be doing weight training, but improving performance isn't one of them".

I am in the "going to medical school" business. I've worked with college strength coaches before though. What I'm suggesting is mostly for preventing injury and maintaining performance. I don't think you can really improve your performance much in an endurance event with strength training, other than maybe core stuff.

I do realize you were being general, but you did mean that the quad was a stabilizer in this equation and not a shock absorber, right? Because the "building up" is more a function of periodized training with proper recovery-

Also- which exercise does "combine hip extension with some kind of arm swing or torso rotation" relate to endurance training? No offense, but this is the kind of BS functional crap I was talking about before. Believe me, I've been to the crazy CEC shows that have Santana and others twisting as if they're Chubby Checker, but tell me how that is going to improve "core" strength for endurance athletes. I'll agree possibly with an adventure racer, but that's about it.

Unless I'm mistaken as well in some of the literature, getting "huge quads" also doesn't mean limiting run efficiency, does it?

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http://www.reathcon.com

do a search of pub med. i dont have to sling the studies around. are you really going to debate glycolysis here?

In long races where one have a drop in blood glucose levels they can and will burn muscle proteins. you can fight it off but a season of long distance racing or a single hard race with nutrition slips will in great probability show some muscle catabolization.

I used to lift a lot of weights and was really fast and beat a lot of people because I lifted all those weights. But then, I raced a bunch of people who were faster than me and they didn't lift any weights which is why they were faster. ; ^ )

In my 13 months of trying to pick apart tri-training I'd always wondered why triathletes focus more attention to weight training than runners, swimmers, and cyclists. After reading this thread (among many others) I understand why. >= P

Personaly, I've witnessed many athletes make huge breakthroughs in performance. Not once have I ever heard one say "......that was the year that I REALLY focused on weight training."

...................I'm sorry. Was I thinking criticaly? I'll stop.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

since I logged off back on page 2 this thread blows me away how it exploded. I did read it all though and found it interesting. One thing I love about triathletes..almost all of them are very passionate about their sport and it comes through in your writing. What I am about to write, the exercise physiologists can try to blow holes in all this, but this is reality for ultras..at least for me as a mid 30s female. I did submit to pre-race testing (and as usual always blood numbers pre and post) still trying to get in for post-race testing.

For Rob..since you picked on my moving my quads to hit all angles--taught to me by a body builder and I feel is the one thing that has kept my knees from having any problems...I am not normal (in my distances I do) and I don't know if what I do would apply to shorter races. The long information I am about to give you, no other athlete would share with me--it is ALL trial and error. I highly doubt anyone will ever need this information, but you just never know, and I am nothing more than a big chemical/lab rat experiment. From the emails I receive for training advice it is evident so much to learn..so here you go:

I only put it out there because some athletes are starting to take on the double (my 2nd favorite distance 5x is my fav.) iron. You DO need all the muscle you can handle (not bulk, streamlined longer you go the more bulk you need) for the endurance and fatigue factor. I think there are maybe under 70 (?) people that have now finished the deca iron, I got it right the first time, and missed the second and plan on nailing it my third in Nov. So our sample pool is a wee bit small and only one research paper has been done on it. For females we are now looking at only 5 finishers and I am one of them (was told Kathy stopped at number 5 in Michigan, really thought she would nail it :-(. During my first I gained body weight on purpose before the race since I saw a great deal of RAAM riders gaining some weight to have as excess food since what you are burning you can't put back in and you have to have reserves somewhere. That idea backfired on me and was carrying in too much weight and GAINED weight during the event. This time around I put on 15 lbs extra and think that is almost the ideal weight for me. Next time I am going to put on the 15 lbs but more in muscle form than just body fat form. I am looking for the ideal percentage of extra fat and muscle bulk to carry me through--and the research does not exist for this - trial and error does. Hormones I am told also comes into play, which I don't doubt. Sadly as a female I am more susceptible to other problems you men are not. But what is cool is not peaking until mid 40s so the ST is going to get me there in my best form. It isn't about winning/finishing every race, it is about protecting the body for that one perfect day be it 10 yrs from now.

During my first deca, fellow athlete Beat (Swiss) is a Medical Doctor and has done a great deal of research on ultra athletes and he taught me that I actually needed to put on muscle bulk up top to have as burn power for food--and he looked huge to start and dwindled by the end of the race. Everyone dwindles and becomes scrawny.

This last race I shut down the ability to swallow on day 7 (should have been yanked on day 3) and was barely able to get in my Infinit fluid from day 7-11- maybe 4 water bottles/day. I still have no clue how I got to day 11 without being able to eat and swallow. The one thing that got me through was my muscle mass (which is significantly smaller now) and my body fat-although my chest seems to never want to disappear. I don't like the gaining/losing but my body is becoming more efficient. I had very little swelling this time around because I simply couldn't put things in my body and slept between 6-12 hrs/day so I rested (way more important than Weight training!)..and I upped my protein.

Your body DOES burn itself up--to think different you just haven't experienced/witnessed--and you cannot do research with what happens at dayX or this happened in a 6 hr time frame therefore this will happen during 17 hrs. or 10 days. I have studied a ton of research and in the process of doing my last research paper and it blows me how short the trials actually are, and then they make judgement calls on a human body that did not come with an owners manual.

Since I have been back, people don't recognize me because of how small the body became (which is the size I was before the ultras)--and a few have told me to just eat. I do have 3 different sizes I bounce through during the season, usually at my highest size right before a race and then my smallest one month after the race. I hit the gym and of course am weak, I have that burn smell coming off my body from it metabolizing itself (TCA cycle, and no way am I going to remember the whys - my brain is shot so I might have the wrong pathway). I tried to swim and there is no power to speak of, but it is coming back gradually, haven't ventured on the bike that is this week, and the run actually feels good. I for one HATE weights, but know from personal trial and error (which is how Iron training began in the first place) that without the weight training (and I am down right evil in the gym) I couldn't pull off what I pull off--even if it isn't the outcome I want. The body can go significantly further with the muscle strength.

I think for shorter, quicker, faster races you need a totally different build. It is up to the individual to decide what works for them. I would even work with a coach that is AGAINST the weights, because I am going to do them anyway and don't need their input--especially since they aren't me and don't race in my shoes. When you start getting into multiple days (weeks), you need the muscle, because you are not going to eat the bare minimum to try to put back what you are burning. You are correct in the old school way of training. The explosive exercises is one element I do institute along with a ton of balance work (can't tell you how many rolled ankles I have saved).

now will someone KILL this thread. Time for another siesta :-)

Not disputing the protein contribution to exercise in extreme circumstances, but before you start getting worked up over the term "glycolysis", you better educate yourself on the term "gluconeogenesis." To say that one is "burning muscle" in those situations is off track as to what is really going on.

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http://www.reathcon.com

I'm not debating what you have and have not accomplished, and it wasn't my intention to pick it apart to death.

And it would probably not be wise to get into a debate over who has seen more "war" than the other one (ref: "Your body DOES burn itself up--to think different you just haven't experienced/witnessed--"). Don't think for a second just b/c I'm not toeing the line at a deca or double that I don't understand or know.

Since you did bring up the comment on "old school way of training"- it's not old school or new school. It's what is specific and proven. Ultra's are unique as is, no argument there. Tri-training can often lead to being an experiment of one, but as you yourself said, the body does not come with an owners manual. Personally, I'd rather stick with science rather than anectodal or what a body builder says, but that is your choice.

All things aside, good luck with your ultra's. It's mind over matter after the first 16 hours- you don't mind, so it doesn't matter.

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http://www.reathcon.com

Rob..

here's the deal. I DO want testing, it is just a matter of finding the time to ask for testing to be done on us midrace. Oh and to find someone with enough funding to go to these events. It looks like I might be heading to Dubai next Dec/Jan08. I might be doing some bloodwork individually at the next stage racing thing. I am tired of trying to figure out what does/does not work. It is a very painful process and really tired of the outcomes (post race swelling/swelling on the brain/ this optical problem after any long race--that they attribute to my tight goggles/seeing double, triple on far distances/ ect). I have read so much it isn't funny, and yet I still am not getting it. It would be way easier for one of the researchers to just set us straight. Which is where half of what I do comes from. The other half I am over the guess work.

btw..I don't like debates on who has seen more war..I never made that claim, I was just trying to give you background of where the loss was coming from--which is a complete opposite of what I was taught in school -sorry if you took it the wrong way--probably using words that in my head mean one thing and in your World mean another. The body loss is very real but it only comes after a body gain (which is most likely fluid and gas). I read the entire thread just looking for insight--I'll do anything to avoid the gym. I only see it (body wasting)/feel it as soon as I am usually starting the second marathon and my quads feel trashed, which is usually the time I start to feel the severe equillibrium problems - I would love to see what is real versus perceived and would even submit to testing mid race. I try to gather what is happening via looking at times and the mind does play tricks on you..everything is amplified.

So if you have anything that gives insight (especially that eye sight stuff..that is so annoying!) feel free to forward it to me (real email is under my name). I want to still be able to do these in my 60s and not just do them, but do them well. I am ready for my breakthrough race and willing to try out other methods, why not, have tried everything else.

sorry to the oriiginal poster for the hijack. time to go soak my body there is a beautiful tub calling my name with some awesome bath salts and a nice glass of water..no vino for a few more weeks :-(

The quadriceps (all of them) are active in controlling flexion of the knee when the foot strikes. This eccentric action absorbs shock (impulse = F(dt) = m(dv)). Call it stabilization if you want, but it is working like a suspension for your body.

As for gluconeogenesis, you can make glucose out of anything with three-carbon chains that you can cleave off. This includes many "gluconeogenic" amino acids.

As for the "chubby checker" stuff... I don't really know what you mean. But I'm not opposed to stuff like woodchoppers, and most S&C coaches would agree.

LOL, welcome back from vacation. I hope MB treated you nice.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

"This eccentric action absorbs shock"

...for deceleration movements...

"you can make glucose out of anything"

Yes, you're right. But, that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

"...I don't really know what you mean. But I'm not opposed to stuff like woodchoppers, and most S&C coaches would agree."

I mean many ST coaches giving movements with no consideration for why or for what purpose. The "Twist"...you know, the song?...I know, stupid joke, but it's no more stupid than a ST coaches giving a triathlete a woodchopper. "Woodchoppers" have a place, but not in a triathletes program, which is the focus for this topic.

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http://www.reathcon.com

I have a background of lifting as well. I pretty much only lift once a month now and allow swimming training to work the upper body.

I'm 5'9 and presently 165 ( race weight 160 ). Whilst lifting , I have been up to 180lbs , 8-10 years ago.

Still , I notice I'm carrying substantially more upper body mass than 80% of IM competitors. I will be attempting to shed more mass by increasing my running and changing timing of eating certain foods.

I find it more difficult in the shorter events ( OD's , etc ) than HIM and IM's.

I do believe however that core strength still needs to be worked on frequently though.

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"You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream" - Les Brown
"Discipline is the bridge between goals and accomplishment" - Jim Rohn

You can't make glucose out of "anything". It has to have a specific three-carbon unit that can be cleaved by specific enzymes. Think amino-acid side-chains.

Woodchoppers may not be ideal, but at the same time you're getting transversus, oblique, spinal erectors, and possibly the hip extensors, depending on how you do it. I've seen swimmers do it (and by "swimmers", I'm talking about arguably the best swimming and diving program in the history of college athletics... UT-Austin), so I have a hard time believing that it is as dumb as you seem to think.

Don't you mean Stanford?

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Stanford, Texas, Auburn... throw them all in a bag and pick one.

The beach was nice, though I completely gave up on ocean swimming. The waves were just too much for me to handle.

Anyway, I used it to rest up a bit and cut my mileage back some.

It's funny, reading through this thread reminds me of some political arguments I had with my thick headed stuborn grandfather. It seems as though you can divide the population into two categories; critical thinkers and ideologues. A critical thinker takes in information, processes it, then draws a conclusion, takes in more information, processes it, and draws a new conclusion. He then compares his new conclusion to his old one and tries to understand the differences between these conclusions. Repeat process until nirvana or death is achieved.

The idealogue, on the other hand, begins with an ideology. This ideology can be formed from a belief system instilled from parents, religion, or can even just be pulled right out of his ass. The ideologue then takes in new information, compares it to his already established ideology, and then decides if this new information is accurate or a lie that is based on some sort of plot to deceive us (accuracy is defined as being consistent with established ideology).

I belive this phenomenon is caused by the "ego." To convince someone that their previously held belief (training philosophy) is "wrong" is to tell them that they have been "wasting their time" doing something that is "stupid." This now makes them "stupid" and diminishes their sense of self worth. Instead of embracing the new information with enthusiasm for never before seen success, they rationalize until the cows come home.

I know a guy who is convinced that triathlon training is better for running than strictly run training. The ratonale is, "Except for that one season when I set all of those PR's, my fastest times had always been off of triathlon training." In other words, even though he dropped his 5K PR by 30 seconds during a period when run volume was dramaticaly increased, he is still convinced that tri-training is better for running because his previous PR's were all during tri-training.

Anyway, this is what I was thinking about while sitting atop my mountain meditating last week (ala Musashi of the 5 Rings). Actually it was while I was zoning out during a 14 hour drive home.

.......ahhh. Ready to get back to the daily grind!

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I hesitate to respond because I claim to be no expert on this particular subject (though that dosen't preclude me from knowing more than most who have already posted).

Kenyan distance runners do "some" strength training. By some, I mean a few sets of push ups in the morning. I think this probably falls well under the 1% that Brian had talked about earlier. 99+% has already been spent on base, LT, V02max, nutrition, rest, stretching, form, and plyometrics. After that has all been fit into the program they found room to squeeze in a few sets of pushups.

I think the real key is to find out exactly what is limiting your training. For most it is a factor of either avaliable training time or fatigue. In general, if it is the former then you don't have time to lift. If it is the latter, then you don't have the energy. In either case, you're not lifting.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

What happens when both sides seem to be idealouges? =)

You're right ... it is very similar to a political discussion.

"I'm right. Why? Because I have to be." That seems to be the sentiment running through the thread ... on both sides.

Like most discussions, whichever side is most condescneding to the other ... wins.

I guess this thread is destined to repeat itself in, oh, 2 months (tops), with the same things being said by different usernames, the same examples of successful triathletes, the same reference to personal situations, and the same vague references to "the literature/research".

Perhaps Slowman should e-mail the top 5 Exercise Physiologists and Tri Coaches in the world and ask them to point us to the best information. *grin* ... or ... perhaps he could ask someone in the know to write a research-based article on the "Benefits and Myths of Strength Training on Triathlon Training".

It'd be cool for a thread to lay down some real research-based information instead of the same ol yes-no-yes-no-yes-no back and forth. There have to be coaches and professionals in the field, who post here, who are interested in educating others, that can present the 'literature' in a way that people can use.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

THAT'S ONLY BECAUSE YOU CAN'T RAISE YOUR VOICE ON THE INTERNET!!!!!!!

; ^ )

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

let me ask you this Triple Threat. This is not negative nor do I want you to think this is a barb pointed at you. you did bring up some valid points about idealouges holding onto divergent views. This is not a defense of myself or others but an observation at some of the posts that are made on these types of threads.

Do you or any others think that Paulo, BarryP, JoB (don't remember if he posted on this, but he is a smart guy) and I as well as some of the other coaches that post regulary, don't read the textbooks, the reseach studies, talk with other coaches, athletes, read common literature, trade research articles that we think the others might enjoy, find useful or laugh at etc. Do you think we just post our point of view w/out having spent countless hours training ourselves in the science and research not to mention the hands on hours that we spend with our athletes? None of the coaches I talk with on a regular basis on ST are here to steer people wrong, we all use evidence based scientific principles to train athletes, and make them much faster than they were even after coaching those same people for 3-6yrs. We are all giving advice, information based on N=100's or 1000's vs N=1, 2 or 3. What I notice is many of the people who post on here in these threads read something from a book or hear something that worked for their buddy then apply what they read or heard to themselves. There is no thought behind it other than if it worked for X it will work for me, or if so and so said it then it will work for me. What they fail to do is grasp and understand the principle(s) behind what is written then apply that to their specific situation.

An example was a thread either here or gordo's where someone was asking if they should use a Daniels marathon program for their IM training. What they failed to do was grasp the principles behind the program, then apply those principles to their situation. They wanted to figure out which program would be correct for them the utilize it straight from the book.

Am I saying that I am/we are the ultimate word or authority? No, but I am saying that I'm not going to post something that I know to be completely against the evidence and science of coaching, nor would I post something that worked for just two or three of my athletes but not the rest that I tried it on. But I will post on subjects where I grasp the principles and can then take those priciples and apply them to individuals on an individual basis and consistently achieve positive results. I also know that the other coaches that I communicate with regularly do the same thing.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Guess what you'll get if you just pull a training philosophy out of your ass?

A large following, a book deal, and numerous speaking engagements? ... if you win with it. =)

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Do you or any others think that Paulo, BarryP, JoB (don't remember if he posted on this, but he is a smart guy) and I as well as some of the other coaches that post regulary, don't read the textbooks, the reseach studies, talk with other coaches, athletes, read common literature, trade research articles that we think the others might enjoy, find useful or laugh at etc.

Do you think we just post our point of view w/out having spent countless hours training ourselves in the science and research not to mention the hands on hours that we spend with our athletes?

Of course not and of course not.

Quite the opposite, as a matter of fact. I was assumming that you guys have read a bunch of professional information, and continue to read the latest from the professional journals, etc ... whereas others/we do not. That's why I was asking for some citations and references (nothing elabaroate) from you guys. I figured you guys might know them "off the top of your head". I was hoping to hear some of the names and findings of those instrumental to forming your's and others' ideas, and I also felt that it could sort of "settle the discussion" (so to speak).

I bring that up because you guys (i.e., coaches, etc) bring up a point, and someone counters by saying, "well, mark allen says ....". I was thinking that the bulk of what the research says would overshadow (or should overshadow) what "Triathlon legend" or "current champion" thought about the issue. [I encounter the same situation in my field, where too many decisions, ideas, and policies are constructed by "hunches", "gut feelings", "imitations", rather than what we know or what research indicates]

I hold most professional coaches in high regard, respect what they do and what they say, and place value on both of those. I was looking at this from a perspective of a chance for you guys to "educate the masses on the research" so to speak. Maybe that's not as easily done as I was thinking, or maybe that (the research) was intended to be implied in your opinion, or perhaps there's just too much to mention.

Honestly, in this thread, my prevailing interest was whether I should stop saying "strength training helps prevent injuries" or not. I've read that numerous places, and in this thread, was asked for evidence supporting that claim. I provided some and figured that the info I supplied would be critiqued and rebutted/supported by research, and I'd have my answer on whether I should or should not continue repeating that claim.

As I mentioned before, I strength training for non-performance reasons, and I know the key to my individual performance lies within that magic pill called 'consistency' ... so I have no real vested or impact interest in how the discussion turns out, I was just kind of interested in some kind of "resolution", and I am quite interested in EP, research, etc.

Sorry for the length, and hopefully not too much disrespect was felt by you and others. I can imagine if the roles were reversed I would have similar feelings of "Does this guy think we're dumb or what?". That was not my intention.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

"'you can make glucose out of anything"

Yes, you're right'"



Being sarcastic is difficult at times over the internet. My fault.

I'm not denying the process of forming glucose by the body, or the results of a world class swimming team- and although this is going far away from the topic orignially posted, what I am denying is that there is a direct correlation to a long-distance endurance event having muscle wasting like what has been researched in a TOTALLY different field (cancer patients).

Unless you have something to contribute which states a signifcant muscle wasting during mainstream long-distance endurance events, we'll agree to disagree.

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http://www.reathcon.com

Good post Brian. I agree with it 100%.

My contribution came from Train Hard, Race Easy. I can't remember who wrote it but it is a very good book that explains the Kenyan system of training....at least at the time the book was written.



Personaly I have a decent background in weight lifting. I converted to "body building" about 7 years ago and put on about 40 lbs of muscle mass and added 100+ lbs to my bench press and 150+ lbs to my squat. In addition I spent a lot of time in the weight room during college (while running track and XC).

From my "personal" experiences with weight training, I've never felt any significant benefit from it yet have noticed that I run significantly faster when I weigh less. In fact, I can tell you of many instances where an athlete has improved their performance significantly while running at a lower weight, after an increased period of mileage, better rest, more intense workouts (or less intense workouts), more LT training, more rep training, etc. or any combination of th eprevious. However, I have have never seen a direct correlation that would lead me to believe strength training leads to improved endurance performance.

With regard to running specificaly (a subject I feel a lot more comfortably debating) most books I've read include very little if any advice on incorporating liftig into your routine. I have seen some suggestions of weight lifting with regard to cycling, however, my impression was that it was pretty low on the list of priorities. Once you combine the sports you have to ask yourself is it realistic to include every aspect of training of all three disciplines.

I have seen some books/articles recomend lifting for triathletes yet, again, it seemed to be a fairly low priority and they failed to give any real direction on how it should be implimented, which exercises were important, why they should be used, or any convincing evidence of how a particular lifting routine had helped a particular athlete. Most articles I've read include suggestions such as "If you usualy lift on Mondays then continue to do so, otherwise you can use that as a day off." Phrases like this lead me to believe that it's probably not that important.

I have always been prone to injury and have seen many PT's in the past. I have never felt that strength training has directly contributed to a decrease in injury and I have never been prescribed a strength training routine. In fact, if you wanted to draw a correlation, I get injured less now than I did when I lifted weights (be careful here. Correlation does not imply causation). What I HAVE had prescribed is specific stretching and strengthening exercises focused on specifc weaknesses which have ALWAYS been in minor auxilary muscles as opposed to the large muscle groups that are often stimulated during most strength training.

AC would be better equipped to handle a discussion on injury prevention (I would expect) but I found Peter Egoscue's book Health through Motion to be pretty informative. He prescribes specific stretching and strengthening exercises which may or may not be helpful, but more importantly he explains very clearly how your body is meant to function.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I should clarify: 4 years ago I gave up body building, lost the 40 lbs, and got back into running and have more recently gotten into triathlon. I haven't touched a weight in 2 years but have probably added about 5 - 8 lbs of muscle through swimming and cycling.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Pub med has plenty of things to read on this. you have to try several search terms. I was reading a few yesterday but did not save them. I found studies on runners, extreme distance ski crossings, rowers and cyclists showing that there is muscle loss, along with fat loss. Some of this information is cited in nutritional studies and others are looking at hormonal responses etc. The muscle loss is not as pronounced as fat loss but there is some. There wasnt anything spec to tris. I am very weary of this topic so please forgive not citing anything but im tired and this is just the internet.

I am with triple threat. If you guys would share with us the studies showing that there is no benefit to strength training in any part of a yearly triathlon training program I think that would be extremely helpful. I am not able to find anything of the sort in my searches. Most of what I have read says there is no 1x1 correlation to be drawn. The studies are also not triathlon specific, and some in my opinion are rather silly because they are extremely controlled singular movements for short durations. You have to read quite a bit into them and think of how they might apply to multisport training. Here in lies the problem.

Maybe you guys who read and share this stuff all the time could get together and conduct your own study of say 20 multisport elites for a year. Im not trying to be an ass either. Somebody is going to have to step up and do some real hard core research and see if reduced injuries from ST will make you more consistent leading to a faster or more winning competitor. You could also then settle your argument that there is no muscle loss at all during a season of endurance racing / training. Unfortunately I have to work a day job and go to school at night. SO until someone grants me a few mill to do the study or start up a multisport research foundation I think your last statement will probably be where it gets left for a long time.

Its been fun though.

See you on the track.