They wouldn't by anybody who really knows anything about the physiology of exercise and training.

Actually, muscle mass and hence strength are generally fairly well-maintained until the 5th or 6th decade of life, then begin to decline at a measurable rate. Thus, contrary to the recommendations of some popular coaches, the aging endurance athlete who wishes to preserve as much of their performance ability as possible as they get older should first look to trying to maintain their VO2max, since that starts declining sooner, and at a faster rate, than muscle mass/strength.

"huge impact" - you'll have to be a bit more specific

the best triathlon coach in the world, you know, the guy who's coached countless world champions, well, his athletes don't lift. just think how much better they could be if they took your advice.

So...unless people on this forum can say they could beat marc allen in his mid to late 30's without lifting, then I'm going say he's the man to listen too. He might know a thing or two about triathlons.

How do you know for sure that he would have been slower if he hadn't lifted?

You have to be careful drawing correlations between what others do and your own performance.

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Evidence?

"best triathlon coach in the world" is subjective.

because he said he was faster when he started lifting. I can't imagine he'd write that if it weren't true.

I don't have to be careful. I know how I feel and know from my training and performance.

either way, I admitted that I was wrong regarding hgh/testosterone release with regards to lifting vs anaerobic exercise. However, I still have some questions about it. My body feels very different after lifting than it does after a crippling hard anaerobic/vo2 max workout.

so my question is, why is it published quite often generally accepted by most people that muscle mass decreases starting in the mid 30's?

is it such a minimal amount that it doesn't really have an effect, is it just plain wrong, or is it something else??

My body feels very different after lifting than it does after a crippling hard anaerobic/vo2 max workout.

On that I would agree. In fact, I like weightlifting (in moderation) because I feel good and it allows me to exercise every muscle in my body, in a short period of time. I just don't believe it helps make you a faster runner/biker or swimmer and the scientific evidence appears to support that view.

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

They wouldn't by anybody who really knows anything about the physiology of exercise and training.

Well, duh.

I didn't say anyone "in the know" would.

Weight-lifting does help prevent injury[/reply]
Evidence?

Do I really need to list all of the triathlon, weight-training, sports specific training, articles, books, etc that state weight-training can decrease risk of injury? Can it include strength training to prevent naturally occuring strength imbalances? Balancing left/right strength? Balancing ab/low-back strength? balancing quad/ham strength? Or strength-training to thicken/strengthen weak bones that are more susceptible for fractures? Exercises to strengthen rotator cuff?

You remark "evidence" as if I am the first person to ever suggest that weight-training can be beneficial for injury prevention. It seems to be a universally (with few exceptions, I guess) understood correlation. While I am not averting doing the busy work, it would seem that the onus, in this situation, would be on those in the minority that are making the counter-claim.

I'll post some sources, and I have nothing vested, so am willing to change an incorrect opinion, if the case may be. I guess I'm asking to decide if this is time worthwhile investment on my part.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

there are plenty of pervasive ideas out there that are just plain wrong. if the data clearly supports weight training for injury prevention, you should have no problem finding a few good sources.

you point to all the articles, books, etc. that is exactly the problem. just because a certain idea is widely disseminated doesn't make it correct. you can probably find an equal number of sources supporting the idea of stretching for injury prevention. reality is that there is no evidence for that either.

and for slayer's comment - i suppose it's ultimately subjective, but i don't think you'll find much disagreement among those who know these things. or if you want an objective measure, number of world champions would do it.

you point to all the articles, books, etc. that is exactly the problem. just because a certain idea is widely disseminated doesn't make it correct.

I certainly agree with that statement, and I am fond of the quote "If a million people say a stupid thing, it's still a stupid thing". Bad information has a way of sticking around.

you should have no problem finding a few good sources.

A quick google search for "strength-training and injury prevention" produces these links:

http://www.google.com/...nd+injury+prevention

By clicking on the "Scholarly articles for strength training and injury prevention" link you get these 21,700 articles:

http://scholar.google.com/...;lr=&oi=scholart

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Here's a sample I just pulled that seems to be a common theme:

http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/injury.htm Weak muscles

Many injuries are caused by weak muscles which simply are not ready to handle the specific demands of your sport. This is why people who start a running program for the first time often do well for a few weeks but then, as they add the mileage on, suddenly develop foot or ankle problems, hamstring soreness or perhaps lower back pain. Their bodies simply are not strong enough to cope with the demands of the increased training load. For this reason, it is always wise to couple resistance training with regular training.

Make It Specific

Resistance training can fortify muscles and make them less susceptible to damage, especially if the strength building exercises involve movements that are similar to those associated with the sport. Time should be devoted to developing the muscle groups, strength training, appropriate to the demands of your sport. If you are a thrower then lots of time should be spent developing muscles at the front of the shoulder which increases the force with which you can throw, but you must also work systematically on the muscles at the back of the shoulder which control and stabilize the shoulder joint.


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http://sportsmedicine.about.com/...rength1/a/092005.htm

Core Stability Linked to Injury Prevention

“Core stability training is a concrete way to improve balance, athletic performance, and potentially prevent a variety of injuries in people of all ages and fitness levels,” said John D. Willson, MSPT, co-author of the study, doctoral candidate and research assistant at the University of Delaware in Newark. “Because core stability is an important component of nearly every physical activity, we have the opportunity to further research the impact of core stability across the human lifecycle and within various age groups.”

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http://www.runnersworld.com/...8-169-0-9915,00.html

Build A Solid Foundation
Strength-training your legs helps you run strong and stay injury-free

"Here is the REAL secret to marathon success: Devote some of your precious training time to lower-body strength training. All the pavement pounding isn't building the muscles in balance, says New York City musculoskeletal therapist Jim Wharton, and you're asking for trouble when you overtax weaker muscles."

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http://www.ms-se.com/...0!-949856145!8091!-1

[I'm not a member, thus could not access the full text] Prescription of resistance training for health and disease.


Clinical Sciences Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. 31(1):38-45, January 1999.
FEIGENBAUM, MATTHEW S.; POLLOCK, MICHAEL L.

Abstract:
Prescription of resistance training for health and disease. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., Vol. 31, No. 1, pp. 38-45, 1999. When prescribed appropriately, resistance training is effective for developing fitness, health, and for the prevention and rehabilitation of orthopedic injuries.

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One routinely sees suggestions to work on the "weak links" in their body ... usually lower back, obliques, and other muscles involved in "trunk stability" in order to decrease risk of lower back injury. Same deal with balancing pushing and pulling strength in order to prevent/correct shoulder strength imbalances that can/may lead to injury.

Also, going on the addage that injury increases with fatigue ... wouldn't a stronger muscle (relative) fatigue less quickly?

I guess I am unclear on exactly what type/amount of source you are asking for. I have no problem admitting that I do not routinely read professional peer-reviewed Exercise journals, and politely ask, if you have information readily available that suggest strength-training does not decrease risks of injury to provide them ... if for no other reason than to prevent me from skimming, copying and pasting articles/links, only to have you tell me "your sources are wrong". Fair request?

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Here's something I've found that might be useful.

http://www.exrx.net/ExInfo.html [/url]Bone

Tensile strength and elasticity of bones decrease about 2% per decade from age 20 to 90 years (Hayes, 1986).

Bone is only one fifth the weight of steel but can withstand two times the compression force as granite, or four times the compression force as concrete.

Weight bearing activities such as walking can prevent bone mineral loss. Weight resistive exercises can prevent bone mineral loss if the antigravity musculature is activated.

In animal studies, the first 40 repetitions of an exercise stimulates greater than 95% of bone formation. Additional repetitions do not significantly increase bone formation (Riewald S. Bone of Contention: What Exercises Increase Bone Strength? Strength and Conditioning Journal. 26, 1, pg 46-47.). [/url]Tendon and Ligament

Resistance training can increase the size and strength of tendons and ligaments (Fahey et al. 1975). [/url]Knee Stability

Closed chain exercises like leg presses and squats can improve knee stability. The stresses placed upon the joints and muscles during closed chained movements are more are more functional and offer more natural stresses on the body as compared to open chain exercises like leg extensions. Peterson, J.A, Bryant, C.X., Understanding Closed Chained Exercise, The Fitness Handbook, 2, 125-130, 1995. Youth Weight Training & Safety

Regular participation in a broad-based training program that includes resistance training can significantly reduce sports related injuries in adolescents.

Faigenbaum AD, Schram J (2004). Can resistance training reduce injuries in youth sports? Strength and Conditioning Journal. 26(3) 16-21. Strength Imbalance and Injury Relationship

Individuals with strength differences of more than 10% between the quadriceps of the right and left legs were more likely to sustain lower limb injuries compared to individuals without such strength imbalances (Bender et al, 1964)

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I'm probably going to regret bringing this thread back to page one, but since this topic comes up over and over-

Both Dr. C and Triple bring up excellent and valid points. As with all positions on the topic, people can always dig up studies on both sides of the equation of pro v. con concerning strength training being a benefit to endurance athletes. Dr. C's expertise and research make him a legit source, and Triple's sources are some of the more accepted ones out there.

However, it does go to show that out of 6 pages of posts, roughly 90% was "muscle & fiction" reasoning (i.e.- read it in a magazine, book, or internet website). It is amazing to hear (and in the past many of us, myself included, fall victim to some of the anecdotal evidence out there) how many people will take as gospel what a "coach" or magazine says. It's pretty phunny.

The optimal and specific strength training that may benefit endurance athletes is totally the opposite of slowtwitch dogma, judging from most of these posts. I will say that if anyone (specifically endurance athletes) out there is spending more than 15-20 minutes in the weight room, you're wasting valuable training time better spent on the run and bike...and no, it isn't "phunctional" training...which is probably the most misunderstood term out there in the strength training field.

However, breaking it down to a level of health/basic fitness v. elite competition, since 99.9% of the forum users fall into the category of health/basic fitness, there's nothing wrong with doing some non-specific strength training. Some get it, and most don't. If people do lift, at least find someone who knows something other than a weekend course in personal training or says they are a coach. Don't be afraid to question as well why a coach says "lift this" or where they get their information from.

See everyone at the races,

Rob

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http://www.reathcon.com

Good points..

I assume you were referring to Sutton. Of the top of your head, what other coaches don't really advocate weights? I'm just too lazy to go research. Does Watson or Carmichael?

I would also like to know why it is every time I've had an overuse injury the physical therapy to recover always involves strengthening (usually involving weight or bands) and stretching? For those that disagree with the use of weights for injury prevention...could you please answer that question?? Are my doctors and PT's also misinformed??? if so, then there are an awful lot of doctors who are wrong.

Also, if muscle loss doesn't really start happening until much later in life as you claim...then could you please explain why we don't see any 50 year olds in the olympics. If they are still willing and able to train like a 25-30 year old, then why don't we see any 50+ year olds competing on the world level? again...I would really like to know why we generally see such a drop off in performance in most professional athlete's after their mid 30's (well...before steroids and hgh came into the picture).

I'm not doubting that you and others here might be right...I'd just like to know why I should believe something that is the complete opposite of the most commonly held beliefs and flies in the face of what we see at the professional ranks.

You're confusing injury prevention with injury rehabilitation.


Because there's a lot more to Olympic-level performance than just strength/muscle mass, and because even a tiny decrement would be enough to prevent you from reaching such a high level of performance.

But hey, if you don't to take the word of someone who studies exercise and aging for a living, you're free to go read the research yourself...

Would you expect that somebody with a power-profile like Alejandro Valverde does a few specific exercises with weights? I'm considering doing some neuro-muscular specific work (that's my intention anyway, not 100% sure this is the best route) and I'm just not sure how much of a risk it is in regards to being able to recover from those types of sessions. Specifically, I was thinking of doing two main exercises; dead-lifts and leg presses. Only one main work set for each exercise, and that being a low rep (sub 5 reps) at very high loads. Previous to the work set of course I'd warm up and do the exercises with some gradually increasing weight, but only at low reps so as not to take away from my muscles capacity to work. Is this type of thinking far off base if my goal is to increase my 5 second power?

The sort of stuff you read in "...professional peer-reviewed Exercise journals".

I really have no idea.


Unless you've already reached a plateau by doing, e.g., standing starts and/or want to race on the track, I'd skip the weights in favor of something more cycling specific (like standing starts). I've seen people (like my wife) increase their 5 s power by 25% in just a matter of weeks as a result of this type of training (plus tapering).

Okay. I supplied some.

I don't feel the need (or really the desire) to go through all ~22K google 'scholarly' (or the 426 at PubMedCentral) entries regarding "strength training and injury prevention" and pull out each and every one that supports the position that ST does or can help prevent injury. The amount of time invested versus the "reward achieved" is simply not worth it. Basically I would get to do a lot of work for no reward. I don't see any benefit in "proving" (not a good word, I know) that strength-training helps or may help prevent injury, when it's already something that is accepted by most.

Again, if you are in the field, and know off-hand of convincing research that shows that strength training has no effect on injury prevention, I politely suggest it would be much simpler to just lay it out. I will read it.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Yeah, I agree that I don't how a statement like "weightlifting doesn't help injury prevention," can be made. The reality, in my opinion, is that every person has different needs and some may need time in the gym. Other's may not. Personally, I find time spent lifting to be beneficial to correcting muscular and structural imbalances (I work with a physical therapist/personal trainer group) and thus an important component of my triathlon training.

I m 46 ......if I do not lift weights.........I fade.........strength .....energy......etc......Dave Scott is right.

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I shall never misuse Rex Kwon Do
I shall be a champion of freedom and justice

Although you would be better off making the movement bike-specific, as in being on the bike and working specifically on your 5s power, the movements you're talking about (deadlift and leg press) are too "slow" of a movement to get that response which you're looking for.

DB power exercises may be a better way to go (DB snatch, clean, and squat jumps).

You also have to remember that there is a significantly less power output on the bottom-to-up pedal stroke. B/c of this, a higher cadence isn't how much you can "power" through the bottom and "pull up" on the back/up stroke, but more of "getting the leg out of the way" as the opposite leg starts to power down. So for power movements to mimic this, there needs to be a period of an "unweighted" element during the phase after concentric movement of the quad (or straightening the leg).

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http://www.reathcon.com

As with all positions on the topic, people can always dig up studies on both sides of the equation of pro v. con concerning strength training being a benefit to endurance athletes. Dr. C's expertise and research make him a legit source, and Triple's sources are some of the more accepted ones out there.

I would be interested to see the studies on the "con" side (i.e., ST doesn't help prevent injury). I admit that the seeming consensus that ST does help prevent injuries makes me wonder what exactly these studies show, and why so many, in their writings, ignore the findings of these studies ... but up to this point, in this thread, we've only heard that these studies exist. I would like to see them because they would have the significance that would be analogous to a "landmark case" in the field of EP ... or at least it would seem to me.

Evidence, research, and ideas, that could/would "topple the establishment" (i.e. drastically change popular opinion in one aspect) are usually exciting ... if they are within a field that one has somewhat of an interest. It would seem that many here have an interest in strength training, exercise, and preventing injury. It would seem that such studies would be both eye-opening and interesting to quite a few.

I enjoy strenth-training and recommend it to many people ... but I also freely admit I don't strength-train for "injury-prevention benefits" ... or even to "race faster". I think muscles are cool.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --