A properly measured and certified course is measured through the tangents. So while you can run wide and add distance, you can't cut any unless you actually go off course and cut the corners.

If you run tangents on a certified course you run 26.2. In a pack that is tough/impossible to do, that is why newbies are always complaining that a marathon course was long.


It is different because with Kona you are competing against other competitors for slots whereas Boston it is strictly time.

I am not saying he shouldn't (as I said in a previous post) but these comparisons to KQ are not apples to apples.

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The first time man split the atom was when the atom tried to hold Jens Voigt's wheel, but cracked.

The difference is that in an IM you are competing with others under the SAME conditions. By choosing a downhill course for a BQ you are electing to compete under EASIER conditions than most of your competition.

Proliferation of downhill marathons is another manifestation of pussification of the sport (pink?).

My opinion on it, is that neither one of those are mechanical doping. The boston marathon specifically does not tell you that you can't run a downhill marathon. So in different words, they are telling you the following: "Qualifying time for Male 30-39 on a downhill course is 3:05". They just don't say the downhill part. The playing field is level. As far as the shoes, besides their hefty price tag, in my opinion, you still have to turn the legs over, and last for 3 hours of fast endurance exercise to qualify, so the work is still cut out for someone looking to qualify. My first goal I made when I got into running was to qualify for Boston. I still have not reached this goal, so for me, I am still doing everything I can to try to get there. If I don't make it in my marathon this Decemeber (Flat course), then I will probably register for a downhill course sometime in Summer 2020. Screw the haters.

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- Jordan

My Strava

Proliferation of downhill marathons is another manifestation of pussification of the sport (pink?).

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I think I need a better understanding. Are these downhill marathons just more or less 50m less gain over 26.2mi or are we talking about the "downhill" affect, etc. Drop of say 600m etc.


We have a local soft surface trail that may actually be "net downhill" by 10 or so feet, I wouldn't call that a "downhill" marathon. So is BQ just letting essentially any 26.2 count now, or are there still *some* standards to the amount of net downhill.


Or for example can anyone give me examples of some downhill marathons?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I was referring to 5k drop in elevation like Revel series:

https://www.runrevel.com/rml

 As far as the shoes, besides their hefty price tag, in my opinion, you still have to turn the legs over, and last for 3 hours of fast endurance exercise to qualify, so the work is still cut out for someone looking to qualify.


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If a shoe has a bigger bounce back and/or absorbs more of the impact, etc that essentially gives you more of an ability to have the legs turning over. And I'm not saying they are wrong to use.

If what I'm hearing about them is true that you are getting huge time savings from them, as my athlete said, it would be stupid not to look into buying them. Was it someone who just pointed out "go look at the top 10 itu guys at world's who wore them".


It's just like a downhill marathon...it's just a little bit easier, your story is kinda evidence of that. If you can't do it the regular way, do it the most easier way possible. And again if it's allowed, then it's allowed and it's then on the organization to deal with it. As I previously posted what actually is being defined by "downhill" marathons. I had thought many straight downhill races werent' allowed. But say 50m drop over 26.2mi to me isn't really "downhill" running, that's as much flat as anything.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Here in Albuquerque we have the Sandia Crest Marathon with a net elevation drop of 4459'. Click on that link and their primary selling point is literally "The Fastest Boston Qualifier East of the Rio Grande". Sure it would destroy my legs but I could probably go out there and walk/jog a BQ.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

Is that race a BQ?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Yep:
https://www.runrevel.com/rml/faq

I guess BQ has "sold out" when races like that are allowed to count. I'm not hating on it, but that's just stupid bullshit when that's allowed to count.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Now that is a downhill marathon!! I think most races are just a few 100 feet, and honestly, on a lot of them it doesnt matter. I remember running the Vegas marathon and it was a couple 100 feet loss, but you would never know it. It was mostly up and down, with an 8 mile climb in there too, so your body had no idea it went just downhill.

Look at it this way, what if Pikes peak marathon finished 500 feet lower than it started, you think that would be a fast course with negative 500 feet? But that Tuscon race just looks silly for a real time, downhill for virtually the entire course, didnt know those were available for BQ. Guess times have changed, I had to run 2;50 or under to get in...

Agreed, not apples to apples but there is some small degree of course choosing giving one an advantage, most obvious case in point is a weak swimmer but a strong runner picking IM Chattanooga. To a lesser degree, a lighter but stronger cyclist picking say, IM France etc. every course has advantages for certain athletes. Still need to compete and one never knows who will show up but I would be surprised if most KQers don't pick courses that suit themselves the most.

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

Here in Albuquerque we have the Sandia Crest Marathon //

That looks brutal on your legs, and it is all done at pretty high altitudes. I wonder how many people get altitude sick at 10,000 ft. that seems to be the cutoff? It would have been nice if they found a nice graded dirt road for at lest 1/2 that race, all of it would have been nicer. I bet for some low landers who are not built for the high mountains, this race is actually slower..

If you actually look at results, the times aren't all that fast because most of the good runners here, of which there are plenty, aren't dumb enough to race it. Alitutude wise though, anyone who is acclimated to the city's altitude of 5000-6500 feet won't have any problems spending 45 minutes at 10000. I've biked up the road up the mountain this route uses multiple times and honestly I've never felt any different from the altitude at the very top (10,700') than riding anywhere else in the city.

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Benjamin Deal - Professional - Instagram - TriRig - Lodi Cyclery
Deals on Wheels - Results, schedule, videos, sponsors

Steamtown marathon in Scranton, PA has a 1,000ft net drop and is known for being a relatively easy BQ.

One of their marketing points "On average, 22% to 25% of Steamtown finishers qualify for the Boston Marathon".

Here's a strawman: Find a fast course that meets the OT qualifying rules:

1. The qualifying mark must be made on a USATF certified course, in an event sanctioned by USA Track & Field or a member federation of the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF). The course must be USATF/IAAF/AIMS certified with an active course certification and have an elevation loss no greater than 3.25 meters/km.

So go run Cal International (fast OT qualifier, 340' drop), rather than rolling down a hill (Revel Run, Sandia Crest, etc).

But whatever.

And thats my point. Are we really progressing or just cheating ourselves by running these huge drop marathons to BQ and or getting so much tech in our shoes to go faster. Thats my internal debate, where the line? where my line?

I get the shoe debate and its a bit more murky and seems ok to me, you still need an engine to drive the shoes. But the downhill marathons seem over the top for me. At first I fairly innocently recommended a friend who was desperate to get into Boston, "run downhill!"

Now that I see the BQ times keep lowering, are we really getting faster (engine wise) or are we using more tools that make us perceive it as faster?

Can’t really tell people to calm down about doping when you put it in the title to get attention

Just sayin

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

Now that I see the BQ times keep lowering, are we really getting faster (engine wise) or are we using more tools that make us perceive it as faster? //

Move the time down to where it used to be, 2;50open/3;10 masters and women. Then I dont see a problem anymore, probably less than 5k runners. I have seen the progression of this monstrosity of a race, and it is quite apparent it is numbers they are after, and the ruse of a time standard is just a thing to make it seem special and elite(and of course all the $$ that come with those numbers). When you have probably over 40k people actually "qualify", its pretty much like getting into USAT nationals. Train a little bit, find a particular race, and you are in. If not, do it again, and again, and again, until you do...


Nothing wrong with that of course, I applaud the business acumen of the owners of the race. They played the running field perfectly...

Thanks, just received an email from USAT today informing me that I qualified for nationals.

Thanks, just received an email from USAT today informing me that I qualified for nationals. ///

Did you actually have to do a race? I got an email once, and I didnt even race!!!

I think so. I had a great season, so now I’m going to look up what it took to qualify and see if it was a specific race. Showed it to my wife, she was duly impressed (I won’t show her this thread🤫).

Why? Boston is not a flat course. It is a statute downhill.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Yeah, Boston got something like 400ft elevation loss, but I don’t think anyone is going to argue that it’s an “easy” course.

On the flip side you got races with 5000ft elevation loss with a sole purpose of making it as easy as possible to BQ.