Hello

I think you use your core. You can't do without. Let me explain :

The real point is LATERAL ROTATION : I push on right pedal, and (sometimes) pull on left pedal. Logically, my butt should rotate left massively. So, what prevent my butt / hip to rotate left ?
The CORE

The CORE muscles prevent the hips to go left and right, curving your spine alternatively on both sides. They ensure the link between the hips and the torso, making possible to stabilize the hips LATERALLY using torso weight or anchor via arms/hands.

Personally, I stabilize my hips laterally (through core muscles) via torso weight and bike angulation left/right and elbow pressure on the pads, being relaxed on shoulders, arms and hands. Mantis not an issue.

In your case, I suppose if you express the need for a "strong foundation", probably it is not core weakness, but simply lack of stabilization through equilibrium. Core is not weak, simply it doesn't succeed in counteracting pedaling effect (lateral rotation, NOT vertical take off) with torso weight, so you use arms/hands. But the stabilizing forces are still transmitted via core.

I think this was also the case for Cancellara.

Look at Cancellara : it move quite a bit the torso, and apparently quite use the arms : reasons for flat bars ?
Now look at Wiggins (approx same weight, same power) : no torso move, relaxed in the arms/hand. Because of track background ? And going mantis easily (see its Hour Record position).

Core is used in both cases : you and Cancellara, to transmit arm effort to stabilize ? Wiggins and me (could be worse as a comparaison :-) to transmit torso weight to stabilize ?

Like the comparaisons ?

You're preaching to the converted here I understand it and as I explained. With the more solid foundation I used primary muscles more to create a shape to counteract that lateral rotation forcers. When I didn't have that support of primary muscles, I relied on core for stability and over the course of four plus hours and my core fatigued, my peddling efficiency dropped and so did power. That is what happened... I have quite a strong core but that isn't to say I couldn't condition it more.

Cancellara is a power rider monstering a big gear and Wiggins finesses at I am sure a slightly higher cadence but yes with a track background and both will be generating forces on the bars. Ryf is bobbing about counteracting pedalling forces through her core with a strong position on the bars as she puts out big power for her weight at lower cadence and she rides that way from early in the Ironman...

I get it and I'm done with it but thanks for your input. Seems some people can't accept they are wrong? Once again he doesn't approach the question I am asking just attacking my findings even though through my sharing I explained how I found the fix and explained it. I personally believe it is more power related so was interested in the discussion.

If going mantis is more aero then why aren't the top uber cyclists in IRONMAN doing it more so?

It takes a miniscule amount of effort to counter that. For most of us it's less force than it takes to stand.

And when someone's hips rock while pedaling, which way do they actually move? Away from the force, or towards it? Hint:
https://www.youtube.com/embed/DBlumXFuLt8
See if you can find someone who rocks their hips in the way that you say. For instance right hip comes up while pressing down with the right leg.

Several possibilities, I guess

1) in some cases, they tested in wind tunnel and find no gain ?

2) they find gains, but are afraid of changing position for little gain ?

3) for some of them, it will happen ? Look at Alex Dowsett position (not a tri guy, but interesting exemple). In 2015 he was low mantis (Hour record preparation wind tunnel pictures, and all other pictures), in 2018 if you look at photos from the UCI TT Worlds he is significantly higher hands, despite UCI rules constraint. He uses max possible value (10cm), plus some additional offset from elbow being below bottom of pads.

In 2015 for HR he was already below CdA 0.18 (with 2 lenticular), he is still pushing its aero going from low to med mantis. UCI not authorize high mantis.

1) wrong again

2) I suspect you did not understand what I mean. And the mechanic of this. You mix cause and consequences.

I understand you just cannot recognize you are wrong. Your problem, not mine. Bye.

   
So here's some anecdata on Regular and Mantis position and temperature. All trials were for 40 minutes at 240 watts; temp of 70 degrees.

#1) Mantis position; no fan: avg HR: 141
#2) Arms flat; no fan: ave HR: 140

#3) Mantis position with fan: avg HR 138
#4) Arms flat with fan: avg HR: 135


So, there is maybe some indication that a flat-arm position allows you to cool more from airflow than the Mantis position does. A couple of additional points:

* I was not wearing a helmet. So I had the benefit of substantial cooling on my head when the fan was on. With a helmet on, the relative advantage of the arms-flat position would probably be more apparent.

* For 1 out of every 10 minutes, I rode in an upright position (relief for arthritis in my hip joint). This may have also diminished the difference between #3 and #4 a little.


A 3 BPM difference for a steady run like this in the 135BPM range is borderline significant in my book. Normally, I'd only see that kind of difference with decent-size difference in temperature, altitude, or fitness. I know, It's hardly compelling proof. But I encourage others to try similar experiments.

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

That is interesting. Were these trials performed on different days or closer together? How did the effort feel, high hands vs low?

Each trial on a different day. RPE is definitely higher for high hands both with and without a fan. Though curiously, this was not reflected in data from the trials without a fan, where the avg HR was almost identical with both low and high hands.

I feel like there's still something we're all missing here. I just don't see how angling your forearms up can have any direct influence on the force exerted by your legs. I am a masher extraordinaire. When I was younger I did short TTs with wattage over 300 at a cadence around 70. I never felt like I had to pull on the aerobars. Even if I did, I think I could have pulled on them just as well with my forearms angled up. Yet I, and whole lot of other people, seem to find it harder to generate the same power with our forearms up.

One possibility, is that the Mantis position is inadvertently causing people to have more extension than they do normally. Even if the pads are in exactly the same place, resting on the olecranon (Mantis position), rather than the area just fore of the olecranon could mean an extra cm or two of extension. Just a thought.

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

My day to day variation in HR/W is more than what you are seeing. But maybe you are more consistent? If this is a workout you do regularly, then you'd know what "normal" is. If it feels harder, that's certainly meaningful. Your FTP is pretty close to 240W isn't it?

I know from experience that I can't replicate your test, using HR as a measure of physiological stress. I'd have to do a very near maximal effort, and I'm too old to be doing that very often. I had low hands in my first race this year, and mantis in the three others. When I switched my power didn't drop doing intervals, and it was what I expected in races too. If I am losing anything, it's very little. Are you normally sensitive to front end changes?

RChung wrote:

Are you posting here under both the names Shambolic and Hambini?

I did search the thread for Hambini after you posted this and saw his name popped up in the cut thread today. Funny enough I was watching a video of Team Sky on a aero testing company website and all the other videos of similar genre pop up on youtube that you can select to watch on the side and there was a name I recognised as the poster. I think this may be your man...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YUo1ryCFm8

Thanks. That explains more than I thought it would.

FTP is about 260. I have a fairly consistent record for this particular workout. However, given normal HR variability and the variability in the Hammer trainer, I'm not going to make much of the relatively small HR differences. Based on PE, I'm going with the guess that switching to the mantis position, ceteris paribus, results in slightly more extension.

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

RIP.

https://plus.google.com/...29/posts/hmAiHQjav2C

That's horrible. Any more information on this?

RIP Frank.

RIP. From the interactions I had with Frank he was very pleasant fellow.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

RIP.

I’d befriended him over the last two years while he developed his bars. Great guy in every way. RIP Frank.

Man I hate reading this stuff...

RIP

RIP - this is horrible news, and I am incredibly saddened to hear this.

I last corresponded with Frank 1-2 months ago as I was continuing to provide feedback on the Morf bars. I'm so sorry to hear this and so very sorry for his family.

Man, sad to hear that. Not seeing any more info regarding what happened, but I guess that will come later.

I'm hearing it might have been a bicycle crash? Um, which leads to wonder...and I'm totally speculating here, but wonder if it didn't have something to do with the bars. I hope not.

To be honest, it could be a thousand other things but this also crossed my mind. But whatever the reason it is another cyclist accident where a familiy is loosing a member.

That is such sad news and my thoughts go out to his family.

RIP

Jeroen

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Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

Also speculating, I'd wager it was a visibility issue. He rode early in the morning and, at this time of the year, in the dark, as that was the only time he had due to work and family commitments. I'm sure we'll know the actual cause in due time.

So this wasn't a motor vehicle related "accident" then?

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No idea. I don't have any more information than anyone else here. Just shooting from the hip.