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Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars
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Well actually 0.179, in Sunday morning's weekly Chung test.
That was with a slightly slower front wheel and no shoe covers or trip socks. So maybe I can get to 0.177 with those enhancements.

I thought I'd let you all in on this after seeing how much fun everybody was making of the poor guy with Morf bars on the Kona thread. My rough guess from testing is that I'm saving about 10 watts from the Mantis and about 5 from the no-basebar. Unfortunately, I have significant power loss in the Mantis position. I haven't figured that out, as my elbows are at the same height as before.


Here's roughly what it looked like:





Last edited by: jens: Oct 21, 18 15:23
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [jens] [ In reply to ]
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Well done! How are you liking yours? I love mine. I have a minor power loss in my mantis position as well though I have never figured out why. How do you like the brake levers? Even though they were my idea, I don't use them. My hands are too big to use them comfortably :( Which arm pads are those?
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [jens] [ In reply to ]
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Dude what's with all the frames in the background??? I'm jealous.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Are you pushing or I suppose outputting to your abilities in mantis?

Honest question as my power output in that position was severely limited by the “chicken shit” factor.

It tested very fast for me, but on the road I could never adjust to the sketchy factor.

Personal observation only.

Maurice

http://www.multisportsolutions.com
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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mauricemaher wrote:
Are you pushing or I suppose outputting to your abilities in mantis? Honest question as my power output in that position was severely limited by the “chicken shit” factor....
Maurice


That's sounds plausible. However, I'm pretty sure my indoor power has been lower too (have to double-check that). I'm speculating that we all unconsciously shift around fore/aft in real life to maximize power output and the mantis position limits that somehow.


Fishbum wrote:
Dude what's with all the frames in the background??? I'm jealous.


Used P3 framesets (pre-BBright) cost less than a wheel these days. So I keep a few around to try different experiments.


GreenPlease wrote:
Well done! How are you liking yours? I love mine. I have a minor power loss in my mantis position as well though I have never figured out why. How do you like the brake levers? Even though they were my idea, I don't use them. My hands are too big to use them comfortably :( Which arm pads are those?


Brakes are fine for my purposes. The armpads are Ergo Mantis. My elbows kept sliding off the stock arm-rests.

I'm still having problems getting my Garmin 1000 in the right place. It's still too low and when I switch to basebar position, it overlaps my handhold.





Last edited by: jens: Oct 21, 18 17:14
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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Power output cited is indoors so handling/stability is a non-factor. Still, I can't put as much power out with my arms up and just like Jens my elbows don't move relative to my "conventional" position which has my forearms tilted about fifteen degrees.

Handling on the road suffered until I figured out I had to support my elbows. These are the pads that I run and it appears that Jens might be running them as well.
https://www.shopforwatts.co.uk/...?variant=47577493386


From a handling perspective, the only thing your bike "knows" is weight distribution and contact points. If your weight distribution and your contact points don't move there should be no change in handling so long as you are secure.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [jens] [ In reply to ]
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The only way to make bike computers and hydration work with the MORF bars is to stem mount (at least in my opinion at the moment... Frank has some custom mounts in the works). You'll likely have to rig up something custom. They're very nifty bars but there are downsides to them.
Last edited by: GreenPlease: Oct 21, 18 17:22
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [jens] [ In reply to ]
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I found the same power issues as I tilted the bars up and was discussing in yesterdays thread.

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/New_51_Speedshop_Aerobar!_P6760107-2/


I found it is as the front comes up you lose that solid front end that you need essentially for a strong foundation through your core to produce power to the pedals. I found higher levels of power harder to produce and hard to maintain race power with the onset of fatigue. I used to race cycling time trials and I found back in the day as you moved your pads forward and could produce a bigger fulcrum/lever effect on your forearms to monster power. You can see examples in the other thread of Ullrich and Evans going power extreme. So what I did (I'm not quite as far mantis as you) was angle my pads/forearms higher than my base bar so I could cock my wrists down down to grasp the bars essentially you can pull against elbow your pads.


Sky and other companies seem to make bars so you can do the same without having to do what I did by lower where you grasp the bar I'm assuming to better generate power. I'm not sure how you go about it is extreme as you go but some food for thought.


https://www.shopforwatts.co.uk/collections/all-products/products/custom-carbon-aero-extensions


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFVfs7VKZWE
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Don’t disagree,

I think for me it was psychological, ie I couldn’t get over the perception of how far away my hands were from the brakes. So always tentative.

Also as you say different or more secure cups would help, I never explored it that far.

I think if you had those cups for support and even in aero brakes at the finger tips to feather it *might* be a different feeling/perception.

Cheers,
Maurice

http://www.multisportsolutions.com
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [jens] [ In reply to ]
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Nice CdA. As for power I don't think you can quantify the power loss over a session or two. It is going to take some training and then looking at the power down the road to see if your body has adapted.


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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [jens] [ In reply to ]
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You may be closing your hip angle a couple degrees in mantis position. Have you tried shorter cranks to counter it?
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [jens] [ In reply to ]
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A well set up vintage P3 seems to be just as fast as anything out there today. Nice CdA!
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]
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KingMidas wrote:
You may be closing your hip angle a couple degrees in mantis position. Have you tried shorter cranks to counter it?

I'm on 150s right now. Can't really go much shorter.

It's curious how many others have experienced a power drop for the mantis position. If your elbows are in exactly the same place, simply changing the angle of your forearms should have absolutely no effect on the biomechanics of your power generation. Yet it seems to for most people.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [jens] [ In reply to ]
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No idea what it is either. I don’t produce enough power at threshold to need to “pull up” on the bars as some supposedly need to. If that were the case I could see it.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [jens] [ In reply to ]
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jens wrote:
KingMidas wrote:
You may be closing your hip angle a couple degrees in mantis position. Have you tried shorter cranks to counter it?

I'm on 150s right now. Can't really go much shorter.

It's curious how many others have experienced a power drop for the mantis position. If your elbows are in exactly the same place, simply changing the angle of your forearms should have absolutely no effect on the biomechanics of your power generation. Yet it seems to for most people.

I’m on 145’s.
Not sure. I’m not as mantissed as you are. Maybe you’re using more accessory muscles to hold that position?
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
Power output cited is indoors so handling/stability is a non-factor. Still, I can't put as much power out with my arms up and just like Jens my elbows don't move relative to my "conventional" position which has my forearms tilted about fifteen degrees.

Handling on the road suffered until I figured out I had to support my elbows. These are the pads that I run and it appears that Jens might be running them as well.
https://www.shopforwatts.co.uk/...?variant=47577493386


From a handling perspective, the only thing your bike "knows" is weight distribution and contact points. If your weight distribution and your contact points don't move there should be no change in handling so long as you are secure.

You've got the two-piece 20-degree cups? What pads do you use?

I considered these, but the vendor won't deduct VAT when shipping to the US.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [geetee] [ In reply to ]
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Yup. I'm using neoprene material from a mousepad that has a grippy rubber on one side. Each cup has three "cuts" of the neoprene which is the only way I could get the material to follow the shape of the cup. The cups really lock you in. If I remember I'll take some pics in the morning.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [jens] [ In reply to ]
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Firstly - nicely done.

Secondly - how did you amuse yourself during your racing hiatus? Don't tell me that Arabic poetry fills the void given how easily you've slipped back into your old habits...


Connect - Velogic Fit l Facebook l Twitter
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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I first learned about the morf bars watching the Kona race, why is there so much hate on this forum about them?
Last edited by: frebay: Oct 22, 18 2:20
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [frebay] [ In reply to ]
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If they're being ridden on an open road, or an event with other riders, they're an accident waiting to happen.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [moonmonkey02] [ In reply to ]
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How so?

Have you ridden one?

I haven't, but one of the main ideas behind this is to remove the need to move between the aero and basebar positions - which is a valid criticism of traditional aero cockpits. I don't see any obvious reason why the Morftech bar would increase the risk to the user or other riders. Can you elaborate?
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
How so?

Have you ridden one?

I haven't, but one of the main ideas behind this is to remove the need to move between the aero and basebar positions - which is a valid criticism of traditional aero cockpits. I don't see any obvious reason why the Morftech bar would increase the risk to the user or other riders. Can you elaborate?

There's a reason why brakes are found on the end of handlebars/base bars approximately 40cm apart.

If you don't understand why they are located there I hope you're never riding on a road anywhere near me.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [moonmonkey02] [ In reply to ]
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You know they morph in a spilt second into a 40cm base bar with brakes at the ends right?

These look very fast !
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [moonmonkey02] [ In reply to ]
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moonmonkey02 wrote:
Ai_1 wrote:
How so?

Have you ridden one?

I haven't, but one of the main ideas behind this is to remove the need to move between the aero and basebar positions - which is a valid criticism of traditional aero cockpits. I don't see any obvious reason why the Morftech bar would increase the risk to the user or other riders. Can you elaborate?


There's a reason why brakes are found on the end of handlebars/base bars approximately 40cm apart.

If you don't understand why they are located there I hope you're never riding on a road anywhere near me.

So, you don't intend to answer the question?
Come on, have a discussion or don't. Otherwise it's essentially tiresome trolling.

The Morftech bar switches between the two positions. You can move to a conventional basebar position before applying the brakes, and you can allegedly do so quicker than a normal transition from aero to basebar, and without both hands ever losing contact with the bar. How does this make it more dangerous?

Now, please stop childishly implying I'm an imbecile who's missing the obvious and tell me exactly what it is that I'm missing....... Thank you


[Edit] Ah - I just saw LacticTurkey's response and realise that your answer might make sense if you don't actually know what it is you're criticising. The Morftech bar is NOT fixed extensions without any basebar. The clue is in the name. It is articulated and moves between the two positions while you keep your hands on the bars. It does not remove the ability to brake from a stable position.
Last edited by: Ai_1: Oct 22, 18 3:34
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
moonmonkey02 wrote:
Ai_1 wrote:
How so?

Have you ridden one?

I haven't, but one of the main ideas behind this is to remove the need to move between the aero and basebar positions - which is a valid criticism of traditional aero cockpits. I don't see any obvious reason why the Morftech bar would increase the risk to the user or other riders. Can you elaborate?


There's a reason why brakes are found on the end of handlebars/base bars approximately 40cm apart.

If you don't understand why they are located there I hope you're never riding on a road anywhere near me.
So, you don't intend to answer the question?
Come on, have a discussion or don't. Otherwise it's essentially tiresome trolling.

The Morftech bar switches between the two positions. You can move to a conventional basebar position before applying the brakes, and you can allegedly do so quicker than a normal transition from aero to basebar, and without both hands ever losing contact with the bar. How does this make it more dangerous?

Now, please stop childishly implying I'm an imbecile who's missing the obvious and tell me exactly what it is that I'm missing....... Thank you

Sudden/emergency braking.

No time to move the bars, weight over front end, limited ability to manoeuvre around danger, wet road.

Or take time to move bars back and reduce braking distance.

And add in natural instinct in a split second situation to move hands to the non-existent permanent base bar.

These bars will be fine 99% of the time.
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