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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [moonmonkey02] [ In reply to ]
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In the situation you describe (sudden emergency braking) the MORF bar is undoubtedly safer. There is no way I can get my hands on the brakes of a conventional base bar quicker. It’s not even close. Also, the “instinct” you speak of is broken in the first five minutes of riding the bars. They are very intuitive to use.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [moonmonkey02] [ In reply to ]
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moonmonkey02 wrote:
Ai_1 wrote:
moonmonkey02 wrote:
Ai_1 wrote:
How so?

Have you ridden one?

I haven't, but one of the main ideas behind this is to remove the need to move between the aero and basebar positions - which is a valid criticism of traditional aero cockpits. I don't see any obvious reason why the Morftech bar would increase the risk to the user or other riders. Can you elaborate?


There's a reason why brakes are found on the end of handlebars/base bars approximately 40cm apart.

If you don't understand why they are located there I hope you're never riding on a road anywhere near me.

So, you don't intend to answer the question?
Come on, have a discussion or don't. Otherwise it's essentially tiresome trolling.

The Morftech bar switches between the two positions. You can move to a conventional basebar position before applying the brakes, and you can allegedly do so quicker than a normal transition from aero to basebar, and without both hands ever losing contact with the bar. How does this make it more dangerous?

Now, please stop childishly implying I'm an imbecile who's missing the obvious and tell me exactly what it is that I'm missing....... Thank you


Sudden/emergency braking.

No time to move the bars, weight over front end, limited ability to manoeuvre around danger, wet road.

Or take time to move bars back and reduce braking distance.

And add in natural instinct in a split second situation to move hands to the non-existent permanent base bar.

These bars will be fine 99% of the time.
Thank you for the more reasonable answer.

I think you may have a point initially. But I would expect that after a few rides you'll be used to the new setup and your automatic responses will be appropriate once more. There's nothing natural about the existing basebar/extension configuration. You learned that too! I would argue it's not a natural instinct to get out of aero and grab the brakes, it's entirely learned, and that transition is the most dangerous thing I do while cycling. Based on the design and the feedback from forum members who've tried it, I expect your concerns are misplaced and that actually the Morftech solution, if it proves reliable, provides for shorter braking distances and reduced risk of losing control while making a rushed move to the basebar on a conventional setup.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
In the situation you describe (sudden emergency braking) the MORF bar is undoubtedly safer. There is no way I can get my hands on the brakes of a conventional base bar quicker. It’s not even close. Also, the “instinct” you speak of is broken in the first five minutes of riding the bars. They are very intuitive to use.

+1

After about 4-5 times of practicing coming out of aero on the morf bars, it was much more natural and fast. I've had to do the emergency brake thing while chickening out on unexpectedly technical descents, or in the midst of traffic/unpredictable competitors during a race, and it's always seem super sketchy on traditional bars since you are riding one handed for a time and the process takes a few seconds.

After a few times of doing this on the morf, it's second nature, more stable, and way faster. The thing for me was I initially would consciously try to move my hands out and back, and push the bar into basebar mode, but after a while I realized that you don't really need to do that, you just sit up and the bars come back.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [ClayDavis] [ In reply to ]
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+ 2

I haven't raced my bike with the bars yet, just some group rides and city rides. For me, they are much 'better' feeling than traditional aerobars, and the accompany ~0.5 - 1+ second delay that comes with reaching for the brakes.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Have you used these arm pads on the Speed Concept or jus your Shiv?

Matt
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [Pun_Times] [ In reply to ]
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Just the Shiv. I abandoned the mantis position on my Speed Concept (for now). With the reverse ski bends it was just really "kludged" for lack of a better term. I have my Zipp 110 Evos on there now which allows me to keep my hands very very close together (grips themselves are touching) which releases pressure I have in my shoulders (allows for internal rotation). This is my biggest beef with the MORF bar and there's really no way to adjust it: you can't change how close or far apart your hands are and this does result in a comfort issue for me. I'm an advocate of hands closer together than elbows but most triathletes don't set their bikes up this way so perhaps it will be a non-issue for most.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [jens] [ In reply to ]
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What is your size and weight ?

Because apparently Michelle Vesterby is already .175 with classic bars :-)

Clearly, if Antony (the poor guy from Kona... only french triathlete below 8h in IM) is using them, it s because he find an aero interest. He is a real aero geek.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [jens] [ In reply to ]
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Hello jens and All,

Thanks for posting your information .... I have MorfTech bars sitting here beside me and have not had time for installation yet.

I was not considering a mantis mount but now I am since all I have to do is rotate them on the stem .... did you try them in a 15 degree position first?

What stem did you use?

Again as thanks for posting ..... if you do not have a View-Speed front skewer I will donate one to you if you are interested ..... that front fork skewer extension sticking out into the wind holding you back is all you have left to fix to get that last bit of CdA ... :)





Send me your shipping address in a PM.

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Sigma X stem for me. I’m fortunate in that stem allows me to hit my stack on the Shiv perfectly.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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somehow I was reminded of scott tinleys foil bars - airfoil spacers could be a nice finishing touch for the morphtechs?











nealhe wrote:
Hello jens and All,

Thanks for posting your information .... I have MorfTech bars sitting here beside me and have not had time for installation yet.

I was not considering a mantis mount but now I am since all I have to do is rotate them on the stem .... did you try them in a 15 degree position first?

What stem did you use?

Again as thanks for posting ..... if you do not have a View-Speed front skewer I will donate one to you if you are interested ..... that front fork skewer extension sticking out into the wind holding you back is all you have left to fix to get that last bit of CdA ... :)





Send me your shipping address in a PM.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [jens] [ In reply to ]
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Here you have the bars used at Norseman where Lars Vold got up to 60 miles per hour.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M_IT4Pi39c


The bars allowed him to get lower and create more speed.

Last edited by: Halvard: Oct 22, 18 15:52
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [jens] [ In reply to ]
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Sub-0.18 is pretty impressive. You could be giving the UK TT crowd a run for their money for lowest CdA. It is especially cool doing it with some retro equipment like the helmet and OP3.

One thing you might try with your mantis-power issue is to bring the elbows back a centimeter or two. It seemed to help me increase my power a bit
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
Firstly - nicely done.

Secondly - how did you amuse yourself during your racing hiatus? Don't tell me that Arabic poetry fills the void given how easily you've slipped back into your old habits...


Well there's field testing when it's warm enough. And then I've been working on a scheme whereby all the people in this country on both sides of the political spectrum will come to respect each other and understand that there might be reasons behind each other's beliefs and it's not just because the other side is stupid and/or evil. I expect to complete that around the time my CdA reaches 0.16. ;-)

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
Last edited by: jens: Oct 22, 18 20:37
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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nealhe wrote:
Hello jens and All,

Thanks for posting your information .... I have MorfTech bars sitting here beside me and have not had time for installation yet.
I was not considering a mantis mount but now I am since all I have to do is rotate them on the stem .... did you try them in a 15 degree position first?
What stem did you use?

Again as thanks for posting ..... if you do not have a View-Speed front skewer I will donate one to you if you are interested ..... that front fork skewer extension sticking out into the wind holding you back is all you have left to fix to get that last bit of CdA ... :)
Send me your shipping address in a PM.


Wow thanks Neal. I've always wanted one of those skewers but never got around to ordering.

I'm using a cheap adjustable stem right now. But that brings up an interesting point. I was actually hoping for a slightly larger aero gain with the Morf bar. On a related note, I was expecting much better performance from the USE Tula bar over the R1 bar (the R1 bar is actually faster for me, even though the Tula bar is 2cm narrower).

I think the reason is that the Morf Bar and the Tula bar both have elbow pads roughly at the level of the top of the stem. So in both cases, I have over two inches of big fat spacers under the stem to get to the right height. I think you can see that in the photo.

With the R1 bar, I don't need any headset spacers at all; I achieve the correct pad height with the two adjustable stacks, which are very slender and aerodynamically shaped. So either aero headset spacers or some other method to raise the Morf elbow pads might produce some improvement.

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
Last edited by: jens: Oct 22, 18 20:40
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [jens] [ In reply to ]
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From my own testing at A2 (I should really link it in my sig) I found that the MORF bar was actually slower than the Alpha X. In my case, I had a -7 conventional stem on the MORF bar to match the stack/reach of my position on the Alpha X (note: not a mantis position on those runs). Conventional stems are surprisingly aero dogs. I saw a P5 in the background of one of your photos if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps with the higher stack of that frame you could get away with a -17 aero stem of some sort?

There are spacers to elevate the arm pads on the MORF (your bar should have come with them, no?) but because the pads rise while the bars remain static things get... interesting.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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May I ask, what angle Wattshop rests are you using? And with what extension configuration? I've got Use Tula 30 degree which I'm fitting in reverse (to a flat basebar) to get a bit of semi-mantis going on.

Cheers mate,
Rich.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [jens] [ In reply to ]
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Mmm...purely from a theoretical perspective, the more mass you have the more force is transmitted to the pedals. There is a point where the torque applied to the pedals is less than the force you can generate solely by being you, which is your mass x g, or in other words, your weight. Peddling up to this point you can turn the pedals without a problem, even without your hands in the handlebars. But, if resistance increases, you will need to increase the force to the pedals. Since the acceleration of gravity is constant, the only way to turn the pedals is by increasing your mass, which you can do by pushing your handlebars up (thus causing an inverse reaction of the same magnitude, expressed as an increase of mass).
Anyways, your biceps are not in a good region of the force-length curve, or the length-tension curve. So, you push less, so you have less mass and thus less force going through the pedals, which equates to less power output.

But of course this is a theoretical exercise. In fact reading back, I got confused with my own words, but I swear it did make sense at some point in my head.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [jens] [ In reply to ]
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I have a bunch of p5 fork spacers for free....just have to dig through the garage.

I was thinking of making beer openers out of them.😀

Pm if interested.

Maurice
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [orbis] [ In reply to ]
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orbis wrote:
Mmm...purely from a theoretical perspective, the more mass you have the more force is transmitted to the pedals. There is a point where the torque applied to the pedals is less than the force you can generate solely by being you, which is your mass x g, or in other words, your weight. Peddling up to this point you can turn the pedals without a problem, even without your hands in the handlebars. But, if resistance increases, you will need to increase the force to the pedals. Since the acceleration of gravity is constant, the only way to turn the pedals is by increasing your mass, which you can do by pushing your handlebars up (thus causing an inverse reaction of the same magnitude, expressed as an increase of mass).
Anyways, your biceps are not in a good region of the force-length curve, or the length-tension curve. So, you push less, so you have less mass and thus less force going through the pedals, which equates to less power output.

But of course this is a theoretical exercise. In fact reading back, I got confused with my own words, but I swear it did make sense at some point in my head.

No

I presume you're trying to say that max torque without exerting an upward load on the bars = mgL?
[with m = rider mass, g = acceleration due to gravity and L= crank arm length]

Well, assuming a rider weight of 75kg, a crank length of 155mm, and a cadence of 90RPM, I make that 1075W. Quick calculation so feel free to correct me if I've gone wrong somewhere. But, if that's correct, I think it would be just enough for most time trials, don't you?
[[ Edit: Nevertheless - I don't consider this a useful calculation for several reasons. Among them the fact it assumes a consistent torque that's due entirely to weight. This can't be the case since gravity doesn't follow the pedal around the stroke! ]]

Also, you seem to be blurring the lines between mass, force, torque, acceleration and power. These all have specific meanings. You can't increase mass by applying force. Pedal force is not torque, or power. You must multiply it by the crank length for torque and also by the angular velocity if you want power.

I don't know what a force-length curve or length-tension curve is. length of what? tension of what?
Last edited by: Ai_1: Oct 23, 18 8:44
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [orbis] [ In reply to ]
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orbis wrote:
Mmm...purely from a theoretical perspective, the more mass you have the more force is transmitted to the pedals. There is a point where the torque applied to the pedals is less than the force you can generate solely by being you, which is your mass x g, or in other words, your weight. Peddling up to this point you can turn the pedals without a problem, even without your hands in the handlebars. But, if resistance increases, you will need to increase the force to the pedals. Since the acceleration of gravity is constant, the only way to turn the pedals is by increasing your mass, which you can do by pushing your handlebars up (thus causing an inverse reaction of the same magnitude, expressed as an increase of mass).
Anyways, your biceps are not in a good region of the force-length curve, or the length-tension curve. So, you push less, so you have less mass and thus less force going through the pedals, which equates to less power output.

But of course this is a theoretical exercise. In fact reading back, I got confused with my own words, but I swear it did make sense at some point in my head.

Without trying to get too technical I have been trying to explain what I think you are getting at in earlier in this thread and another thread. As you rightly say as your hands come up into this position you are basically just relying on body weight and core muscles as you can't create and a stable foundation to lock in your core through hands and elbows with tension through your arms to apply greater/or more easily generated force to the pedals. I found you lost max power and racing power dropped as the core fatigued. Everyone on here is saying they lost power and aren't sure why and that is my findings. Watch Daniela Ryf at Kona monstering her gear and you will see how she generates power.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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I think this may be it, yes.
A good way to test would be maybe to look at it inversely.
Maybe have a constant power and see what kind of heart rate values or lactate are being produced to have an idea of metabolic expenditure, however here, I would probably predict lower HR since it is less of a full body effort? You reckon?
Dunno.
Last edited by: orbis: Oct 23, 18 14:00
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
As you rightly say as your hands come up into this position you are basically just relying on body weight and core muscles as you can't create and a stable foundation to lock in your core through hands and elbows with tension through your arms to apply greater/or more easily generated force to the pedals.

Your body weight is a lot more than the force you are applying to the pedals. Not even close.

Any tension you are creating above the hips is a waste of energy. Except for what you need to hold the aero position that is.
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
As you rightly say as your hands come up into this position you are basically just relying on body weight and core muscles as you can't create and a stable foundation to lock in your core through hands and elbows with tension through your arms to apply greater/or more easily generated force to the pedals.


Your body weight is a lot more than the force you are applying to the pedals. Not even close.

Any tension you are creating above the hips is a waste of energy. Except for what you need to hold the aero position that is.


Watch video of Daniela Ryf riding and try and tell her that then... The rock and roll she generates through her torso is quite evident with a solid front end to produce the power she does. You believe what you want but tell me why everyone on this thread is losing power going mantis then?
Last edited by: Shambolic: Oct 23, 18 19:52
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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I don't lose power in mantis. Mantis is quite the fad in UK TTs now and I doubt they are losing power either. Nothing I do to the front end seems to effect power at all.

My hips and torso also move. It's just the natural motion of pedaling, not "generating power through a solid front end". Sounds to me like compensation for a poor fit. Exactly what sort of torquing on the bars do you believe is necessary to pedal effectively?
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Re: Finally got to .17 CdA with MorfTech bars [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I have done a lot of study and looked at positions I understand 'mantis' is all the rage in the UK TTs. This is one of the biggest reasons I raised the original question. If all these guys are finding it more aero why aren't more of the top IM pros doing it. Their racing is a lot shorter than Im racing and maybe it is sustainable for the shorter distance. I am asking the question based on my own findings and once again you are not adding any worth.

Are you saying that Jens the thread poster and GreenPlease lower power output is due to poor position? Maybe you could give them some advice you can see the pics? Also what do you term 'mantis' did I read you were at 15 degrees? Hardly mantis... What is your average power output for an IM maybe low and something to do with it so you don't notice anything? What cadence do you average for an IM? As I have mentioned all along I am not full mantis but also found the missing link to my power loss when my hands went up by keeping my, wrists cocked, arms and body tense so I have a solid platform to keep the core solid, not move about and drive the pedals around. With the mantis your foundation is not as solid and you rely more on your core including steering the bike.

The laws of physics for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If I am producing a lot of watts as I put force on the pedal I have to maintain a solid core to force it down otherwise I lift off the seat or my body will move and you lose efficiency. Makes sense to have a more solid foundation supporting your core. Have you ever done hill or big gear reps and tell me you aren't grasping the bars to force the pedals around. Even the differences between Oly and IM where you are mashing a gear for just under an hour or riding most efficiently for just under 5 power is affected differently. I can only surmise you don't produce much power so can't really make comment or an worth?
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