Well done! How are you liking yours? I love mine. I have a minor power loss in my mantis position as well though I have never figured out why. How do you like the brake levers? Even though they were my idea, I don't use them. My hands are too big to use them comfortably :( Which arm pads are those?

Dude what's with all the frames in the background??? I'm jealous.

Are you pushing or I suppose outputting to your abilities in mantis?

Honest question as my power output in that position was severely limited by the “chicken shit” factor.

It tested very fast for me, but on the road I could never adjust to the sketchy factor.

Personal observation only.

Maurice

  




That's sounds plausible. However, I'm pretty sure my indoor power has been lower too (have to double-check that). I'm speculating that we all unconsciously shift around fore/aft in real life to maximize power output and the mantis position limits that somehow.




Used P3 framesets (pre-BBright) cost less than a wheel these days. So I keep a few around to try different experiments.




Brakes are fine for my purposes. The armpads are Ergo Mantis. My elbows kept sliding off the stock arm-rests.

I'm still having problems getting my Garmin 1000 in the right place. It's still too low and when I switch to basebar position, it overlaps my handhold.

---

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

Power output cited is indoors so handling/stability is a non-factor. Still, I can't put as much power out with my arms up and just like Jens my elbows don't move relative to my "conventional" position which has my forearms tilted about fifteen degrees.

Handling on the road suffered until I figured out I had to support my elbows. These are the pads that I run and it appears that Jens might be running them as well.
https://www.shopforwatts.co.uk/...?variant=47577493386


From a handling perspective, the only thing your bike "knows" is weight distribution and contact points. If your weight distribution and your contact points don't move there should be no change in handling so long as you are secure.

The only way to make bike computers and hydration work with the MORF bars is to stem mount (at least in my opinion at the moment... Frank has some custom mounts in the works). You'll likely have to rig up something custom. They're very nifty bars but there are downsides to them.

I found the same power issues as I tilted the bars up and was discussing in yesterdays thread.

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/New_51_Speedshop_Aerobar!_P6760107-2/


I found it is as the front comes up you lose that solid front end that you need essentially for a strong foundation through your core to produce power to the pedals. I found higher levels of power harder to produce and hard to maintain race power with the onset of fatigue. I used to race cycling time trials and I found back in the day as you moved your pads forward and could produce a bigger fulcrum/lever effect on your forearms to monster power. You can see examples in the other thread of Ullrich and Evans going power extreme. So what I did (I'm not quite as far mantis as you) was angle my pads/forearms higher than my base bar so I could cock my wrists down down to grasp the bars essentially you can pull against elbow your pads.


Sky and other companies seem to make bars so you can do the same without having to do what I did by lower where you grasp the bar I'm assuming to better generate power. I'm not sure how you go about it is extreme as you go but some food for thought.


https://www.shopforwatts.co.uk/collections/all-products/products/custom-carbon-aero-extensions


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFVfs7VKZWE

Don’t disagree,

I think for me it was psychological, ie I couldn’t get over the perception of how far away my hands were from the brakes. So always tentative.

Also as you say different or more secure cups would help, I never explored it that far.

I think if you had those cups for support and even in aero brakes at the finger tips to feather it *might* be a different feeling/perception.

Cheers,
Maurice

Nice CdA. As for power I don't think you can quantify the power loss over a session or two. It is going to take some training and then looking at the power down the road to see if your body has adapted.

---

---

Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset

You may be closing your hip angle a couple degrees in mantis position. Have you tried shorter cranks to counter it?

A well set up vintage P3 seems to be just as fast as anything out there today. Nice CdA!

I'm on 150s right now. Can't really go much shorter.

It's curious how many others have experienced a power drop for the mantis position. If your elbows are in exactly the same place, simply changing the angle of your forearms should have absolutely no effect on the biomechanics of your power generation. Yet it seems to for most people.

---

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

No idea what it is either. I don’t produce enough power at threshold to need to “pull up” on the bars as some supposedly need to. If that were the case I could see it.

I’m on 145’s.
Not sure. I’m not as mantissed as you are. Maybe you’re using more accessory muscles to hold that position?

You've got the two-piece 20-degree cups? What pads do you use?

I considered these, but the vendor won't deduct VAT when shipping to the US.

Yup. I'm using neoprene material from a mousepad that has a grippy rubber on one side. Each cup has three "cuts" of the neoprene which is the only way I could get the material to follow the shape of the cup. The cups really lock you in. If I remember I'll take some pics in the morning.

Firstly - nicely done.

Secondly - how did you amuse yourself during your racing hiatus? Don't tell me that Arabic poetry fills the void given how easily you've slipped back into your old habits...

I first learned about the morf bars watching the Kona race, why is there so much hate on this forum about them?

---

IG -frebay | Strava

If they're being ridden on an open road, or an event with other riders, they're an accident waiting to happen.

How so?

Have you ridden one?

I haven't, but one of the main ideas behind this is to remove the need to move between the aero and basebar positions - which is a valid criticism of traditional aero cockpits. I don't see any obvious reason why the Morftech bar would increase the risk to the user or other riders. Can you elaborate?

There's a reason why brakes are found on the end of handlebars/base bars approximately 40cm apart.

If you don't understand why they are located there I hope you're never riding on a road anywhere near me.

You know they morph in a spilt second into a 40cm base bar with brakes at the ends right?

These look very fast !

So, you don't intend to answer the question?
Come on, have a discussion or don't. Otherwise it's essentially tiresome trolling.

The Morftech bar switches between the two positions. You can move to a conventional basebar position before applying the brakes, and you can allegedly do so quicker than a normal transition from aero to basebar, and without both hands ever losing contact with the bar. How does this make it more dangerous?

Now, please stop childishly implying I'm an imbecile who's missing the obvious and tell me exactly what it is that I'm missing....... Thank you


[Edit] Ah - I just saw LacticTurkey's response and realise that your answer might make sense if you don't actually know what it is you're criticising. The Morftech bar is NOT fixed extensions without any basebar. The clue is in the name. It is articulated and moves between the two positions while you keep your hands on the bars. It does not remove the ability to brake from a stable position.

Sudden/emergency braking.

No time to move the bars, weight over front end, limited ability to manoeuvre around danger, wet road.

Or take time to move bars back and reduce braking distance.

And add in natural instinct in a split second situation to move hands to the non-existent permanent base bar.

These bars will be fine 99% of the time.

In the situation you describe (sudden emergency braking) the MORF bar is undoubtedly safer. There is no way I can get my hands on the brakes of a conventional base bar quicker. It’s not even close. Also, the “instinct” you speak of is broken in the first five minutes of riding the bars. They are very intuitive to use.

Thank you for the more reasonable answer.

I think you may have a point initially. But I would expect that after a few rides you'll be used to the new setup and your automatic responses will be appropriate once more. There's nothing natural about the existing basebar/extension configuration. You learned that too! I would argue it's not a natural instinct to get out of aero and grab the brakes, it's entirely learned, and that transition is the most dangerous thing I do while cycling. Based on the design and the feedback from forum members who've tried it, I expect your concerns are misplaced and that actually the Morftech solution, if it proves reliable, provides for shorter braking distances and reduced risk of losing control while making a rushed move to the basebar on a conventional setup.

+1

After about 4-5 times of practicing coming out of aero on the morf bars, it was much more natural and fast. I've had to do the emergency brake thing while chickening out on unexpectedly technical descents, or in the midst of traffic/unpredictable competitors during a race, and it's always seem super sketchy on traditional bars since you are riding one handed for a time and the process takes a few seconds.

After a few times of doing this on the morf, it's second nature, more stable, and way faster. The thing for me was I initially would consciously try to move my hands out and back, and push the bar into basebar mode, but after a while I realized that you don't really need to do that, you just sit up and the bars come back.

+ 2

I haven't raced my bike with the bars yet, just some group rides and city rides. For me, they are much 'better' feeling than traditional aerobars, and the accompany ~0.5 - 1+ second delay that comes with reaching for the brakes.

Have you used these arm pads on the Speed Concept or jus your Shiv?

---

Matt

Just the Shiv. I abandoned the mantis position on my Speed Concept (for now). With the reverse ski bends it was just really "kludged" for lack of a better term. I have my Zipp 110 Evos on there now which allows me to keep my hands very very close together (grips themselves are touching) which releases pressure I have in my shoulders (allows for internal rotation). This is my biggest beef with the MORF bar and there's really no way to adjust it: you can't change how close or far apart your hands are and this does result in a comfort issue for me. I'm an advocate of hands closer together than elbows but most triathletes don't set their bikes up this way so perhaps it will be a non-issue for most.

What is your size and weight ?

Because apparently Michelle Vesterby is already .175 with classic bars :-)

Clearly, if Antony (the poor guy from Kona... only french triathlete below 8h in IM) is using them, it s because he find an aero interest. He is a real aero geek.

Hello jens and All,

Thanks for posting your information .... I have MorfTech bars sitting here beside me and have not had time for installation yet.

I was not considering a mantis mount but now I am since all I have to do is rotate them on the stem .... did you try them in a 15 degree position first?

What stem did you use?

Again as thanks for posting ..... if you do not have a View-Speed front skewer I will donate one to you if you are interested ..... that front fork skewer extension sticking out into the wind holding you back is all you have left to fix to get that last bit of CdA ... :)





Send me your shipping address in a PM.

---

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Sigma X stem for me. I’m fortunate in that stem allows me to hit my stack on the Shiv perfectly.

somehow I was reminded of scott tinleys foil bars - airfoil spacers could be a nice finishing touch for the morphtechs?

Here you have the bars used at Norseman where Lars Vold got up to 60 miles per hour.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M_IT4Pi39c


The bars allowed him to get lower and create more speed.

Sub-0.18 is pretty impressive. You could be giving the UK TT crowd a run for their money for lowest CdA. It is especially cool doing it with some retro equipment like the helmet and OP3.

One thing you might try with your mantis-power issue is to bring the elbows back a centimeter or two. It seemed to help me increase my power a bit

Well there's field testing when it's warm enough. And then I've been working on a scheme whereby all the people in this country on both sides of the political spectrum will come to respect each other and understand that there might be reasons behind each other's beliefs and it's not just because the other side is stupid and/or evil. I expect to complete that around the time my CdA reaches 0.16. ;-)

---

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

Wow thanks Neal. I've always wanted one of those skewers but never got around to ordering.

I'm using a cheap adjustable stem right now. But that brings up an interesting point. I was actually hoping for a slightly larger aero gain with the Morf bar. On a related note, I was expecting much better performance from the USE Tula bar over the R1 bar (the R1 bar is actually faster for me, even though the Tula bar is 2cm narrower).

I think the reason is that the Morf Bar and the Tula bar both have elbow pads roughly at the level of the top of the stem. So in both cases, I have over two inches of big fat spacers under the stem to get to the right height. I think you can see that in the photo.

With the R1 bar, I don't need any headset spacers at all; I achieve the correct pad height with the two adjustable stacks, which are very slender and aerodynamically shaped. So either aero headset spacers or some other method to raise the Morf elbow pads might produce some improvement.

---

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

From my own testing at A2 (I should really link it in my sig) I found that the MORF bar was actually slower than the Alpha X. In my case, I had a -7 conventional stem on the MORF bar to match the stack/reach of my position on the Alpha X (note: not a mantis position on those runs). Conventional stems are surprisingly aero dogs. I saw a P5 in the background of one of your photos if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps with the higher stack of that frame you could get away with a -17 aero stem of some sort?

There are spacers to elevate the arm pads on the MORF (your bar should have come with them, no?) but because the pads rise while the bars remain static things get... interesting.

May I ask, what angle Wattshop rests are you using? And with what extension configuration? I've got Use Tula 30 degree which I'm fitting in reverse (to a flat basebar) to get a bit of semi-mantis going on.

Cheers mate,
Rich.

Mmm...purely from a theoretical perspective, the more mass you have the more force is transmitted to the pedals. There is a point where the torque applied to the pedals is less than the force you can generate solely by being you, which is your mass x g, or in other words, your weight. Peddling up to this point you can turn the pedals without a problem, even without your hands in the handlebars. But, if resistance increases, you will need to increase the force to the pedals. Since the acceleration of gravity is constant, the only way to turn the pedals is by increasing your mass, which you can do by pushing your handlebars up (thus causing an inverse reaction of the same magnitude, expressed as an increase of mass).
Anyways, your biceps are not in a good region of the force-length curve, or the length-tension curve. So, you push less, so you have less mass and thus less force going through the pedals, which equates to less power output.

But of course this is a theoretical exercise. In fact reading back, I got confused with my own words, but I swear it did make sense at some point in my head.

I have a bunch of p5 fork spacers for free....just have to dig through the garage.

I was thinking of making beer openers out of them.😀

Pm if interested.

Maurice

No

I presume you're trying to say that max torque without exerting an upward load on the bars = mgL?
[with m = rider mass, g = acceleration due to gravity and L= crank arm length]

Well, assuming a rider weight of 75kg, a crank length of 155mm, and a cadence of 90RPM, I make that 1075W. Quick calculation so feel free to correct me if I've gone wrong somewhere. But, if that's correct, I think it would be just enough for most time trials, don't you?
[[ Edit: Nevertheless - I don't consider this a useful calculation for several reasons. Among them the fact it assumes a consistent torque that's due entirely to weight. This can't be the case since gravity doesn't follow the pedal around the stroke! ]]

Also, you seem to be blurring the lines between mass, force, torque, acceleration and power. These all have specific meanings. You can't increase mass by applying force. Pedal force is not torque, or power. You must multiply it by the crank length for torque and also by the angular velocity if you want power.

I don't know what a force-length curve or length-tension curve is. length of what? tension of what?

Without trying to get too technical I have been trying to explain what I think you are getting at in earlier in this thread and another thread. As you rightly say as your hands come up into this position you are basically just relying on body weight and core muscles as you can't create and a stable foundation to lock in your core through hands and elbows with tension through your arms to apply greater/or more easily generated force to the pedals. I found you lost max power and racing power dropped as the core fatigued. Everyone on here is saying they lost power and aren't sure why and that is my findings. Watch Daniela Ryf at Kona monstering her gear and you will see how she generates power.

I think this may be it, yes.
A good way to test would be maybe to look at it inversely.
Maybe have a constant power and see what kind of heart rate values or lactate are being produced to have an idea of metabolic expenditure, however here, I would probably predict lower HR since it is less of a full body effort? You reckon?
Dunno.

Your body weight is a lot more than the force you are applying to the pedals. Not even close.

Any tension you are creating above the hips is a waste of energy. Except for what you need to hold the aero position that is.

Watch video of Daniela Ryf riding and try and tell her that then... The rock and roll she generates through her torso is quite evident with a solid front end to produce the power she does. You believe what you want but tell me why everyone on this thread is losing power going mantis then?

I don't lose power in mantis. Mantis is quite the fad in UK TTs now and I doubt they are losing power either. Nothing I do to the front end seems to effect power at all.

My hips and torso also move. It's just the natural motion of pedaling, not "generating power through a solid front end". Sounds to me like compensation for a poor fit. Exactly what sort of torquing on the bars do you believe is necessary to pedal effectively?

Yes I have done a lot of study and looked at positions I understand 'mantis' is all the rage in the UK TTs. This is one of the biggest reasons I raised the original question. If all these guys are finding it more aero why aren't more of the top IM pros doing it. Their racing is a lot shorter than Im racing and maybe it is sustainable for the shorter distance. I am asking the question based on my own findings and once again you are not adding any worth.

Are you saying that Jens the thread poster and GreenPlease lower power output is due to poor position? Maybe you could give them some advice you can see the pics? Also what do you term 'mantis' did I read you were at 15 degrees? Hardly mantis... What is your average power output for an IM maybe low and something to do with it so you don't notice anything? What cadence do you average for an IM? As I have mentioned all along I am not full mantis but also found the missing link to my power loss when my hands went up by keeping my, wrists cocked, arms and body tense so I have a solid platform to keep the core solid, not move about and drive the pedals around. With the mantis your foundation is not as solid and you rely more on your core including steering the bike.

The laws of physics for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If I am producing a lot of watts as I put force on the pedal I have to maintain a solid core to force it down otherwise I lift off the seat or my body will move and you lose efficiency. Makes sense to have a more solid foundation supporting your core. Have you ever done hill or big gear reps and tell me you aren't grasping the bars to force the pedals around. Even the differences between Oly and IM where you are mashing a gear for just under an hour or riding most efficiently for just under 5 power is affected differently. I can only surmise you don't produce much power so can't really make comment or an worth?

If you look at track cycling, you will notice nearly everybody in pursuit or team pursuit is moving to mantis. Same for Hour Records. With the limit of UCI rule (10cm maximum from bottom of pad to top of bar).

Because it is more efficient aero.
And with power output very high (around PMA for individual pursuit, and burst to 150% of PMA for team pursuit).

And look at the shoulders : no much rock and roll
OK, RPM are higher, but force on pedal is still higher than in TT or Tri
If you rock and roll shoulders on track, someone will quickly explain to you that you need to work on your core.

Maybe mantis make R&R shoulder more difficult, then is a problem if your core is not strong enough ?

I don't do anything longer than a 40k. The longer the effort is, the less power you apply and the less you'd need to stabilize with your arms and shoulders. But I don't see mantis being deterrent to that anyway. All the KGF guys used mantis for team pursuit (~4 minute effort). The most popular TT in the UK is 10mi.

My forearms are at ~30 degrees currently.


You don't need a "solid core". Gravity takes care of it. At 90rpm and 300W the peak force is typically ~80lbs. And all of that is close to straight down. So long as weight on your saddle is more than that, you won't "lift off". At high outputs I pedal faster, so the power output needs to be >600W before I need to do any overt stabilizing. Sure in a sprint you need to bring the rest of the body into play, but we aren't talking about that.

By "poor fit" I mean you aren't stable in the saddle. Usually your pedal stroke is tending to make you slide off the front, so you have to constantly counteract this with your arms and shoulders. Seems to me like you should be able to let gravity do the work by moving your elbows forward a bit, and if anything I'd expect tilting the forearms and pads up would help. So I'll ask a 3rd time; exactly what forces do you need to apply in order to stabilize?

  
Ok. I think I might have this figured out.

I did a test the last two days on the indoor trainer. For reference, my FTP on this device is around 260 watts. So I did a fair effort, but nowhere near max.

Trial #1 Mantis Position
Elevation: 2200 feet
Temp: 70 deg. (no fan)
Avg Power: 240 (erg mode)
Duration: 40 minutes
Avg. HR: 141

Trial #2: 10 deg aerobars (same drop &etc. as Trial 1)
Elevation: 2200 feet
Temp: 70 deg. (no fan)
Avg Power: 240 (erg mode)
Duration: 40 minutes
Avg. HR: 140


So really no difference. That contrasts with the limited tests I've done outdoors, where I have felt like there's about a 10-15 watt power difference.

I have a theory, but am interested in what you guys think is going on....


Hint #1:

Here's a photo of my t-shirt after the workout:




Hint #2

---

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

I don't think core strength has anything to do with it. Rather posture and technique. The core muscles aren't getting used enough to fatigue in other words.

It was explained to me by competent peoples (national staff coaches, ex pro, ...)

Basically, when pedaling with some strength, if your core is not strong enough, you tend to compensate this lack of core strength using your muscular chain arms/shoulders/torso, creating tension in arms, shoulder, torso, and this create torso move left/ride.

This is why, to work core on the bike, coaches recommend to work force (slower RPM) with the hands just put on the bar, with no force in arm and shoulders, arms and shoulders totally relaxed.

When capable of pushing big gears with no tensions in arms / shoulders / up-torso, because core is strong enough, torso moves disappear, and you can move to mantis without power penalty.

 
Hmm. No takers?

Suppose I repeat the two trials (mantis & non-mantis), except I have a giant fan raised to point level at me. Do you think the results would be different?

---

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

I can't believe you are doing efforts like that without a fan in the first place! I don't have any idea why you'd lose power outside, but supposedly not while overheating on the trainer.

I say again forces to hold a position that you can drive the pedals around and by creating a solid foundation I relied less on my core and was more efficient. I found it best to hold me in position as gravity isn't doing it for me. You accept at higher power you need a strong core and foundation and that filters down to racing is common sense. Of course you need a strong core in cycling and triathlon. Why would your pedal stroke try and slide you off the front of your saddle? That sounds like a poor fit or wrong saddle? If you take note of what I have said all along I found at lower power such as an IM as my core fatigued I lost power and I lost peak power with raised hands until I locked in the front end. In training and up to race pace I could produce normal power but I rely on core not that solid front end to generate my power. That is what I have found ok. Maybe you haven't?

Have a look at the last Olympics and most of them are doing what I sound fixed the problem including Martin who has gone more mantis having cocked wrists to tense the front end. They also have pads away from elbows to create fulcrum and lever on the bars to generate power pushing down at the elbows and lifting at the hands. Cancellara has gone the extreme and won gold I might add has pads in front of elbows and hands lower than elbows in the examples I showed with Evans and Ullrich. They are all keeping a tense front end to generate power. There front end is not relaxed and gravity taking course...

https://www.ridemedia.com.au/features/tt-tech-observations-from-the-olympics/

Are you moving your torso left/right after 2 or 3 hours at race pace ?
Are your arms/shoulders/up-torso "tense and working" or "relaxed" after 2 or 3 hours at race pace ?

I agree you need a strong core and as you get more mantis I find it harder to create that solid foundation but as I have said that I found by cocking my wrists to tense my front end locking my shoulders I don't have to rely on my primary core muscles to hold position so much which at lower power than these guys fatigue over an Ironman. I agree 100% with you. Pursuiters are only riding 4min so maybe get away a bit more but I am sure they have all the experts to develop a solid foundation and not using generic bars. I see Team Sky have the lower hand to cock their wrists as do many track riders that I found helped me.

https://www.shopforwatts.co.uk/collections/all-products/products/custom-carbon-aero-extensions

I feel like I have to autoquote one of my studies in order to explain some basics about cycling and Newton's 2nd law (sorry!):


Basically:

- 3 main vertical forces exist in cycling (applied on the pedals, applied on the handlebar, weight on the saddle)

- the harder you push downward on the pedals (higher power/lower cadence), the more reaction force in the opposite (upward) direction you get. Think about a jump: the harder you push on the ground, the higher you will jump... Once you exceed your bodyweight!

- the upward reaction force on the pedals can commonly exceed the weight on the saddle

- if you want to stay seated and/or stable on your saddle, you have to either 1) pull on the controlateral pedal 2) pull on the handlebar 3) accelerate your trunk downward

Hope this helps!

Full paper published in the Journal of Biomechanics here for those interested:https://hal-laas.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-01663013/document

---

- Antony Costes -
PhD in Biomechanics / Professional Triathlete (9 pro wins)

"If you cannot measure it, you cannot improve it."
Lord Kelvin

Like I said, that is posture and technique, not strength. People don't move around because their core is weak, but because they aren't trying to use their core to restrict motion; or the motion feels natural. You see variations in this because people develop different habits, probably stemming from when they learned to ride.

I don't think it really matters. Some very good TTers move around quite a lot.

Thank you Antony someone in extreme mantis and highly knowledgeable on this now Rruff may actually take note and listen?
Thanks for your input.

I wanted to test a theory.




When I ride outside in a conventional position, I have a 25-30 mph wind blowing from my neck all the way down the front of my torso. Not so when riding in the Mantis position. The wind is deflected off the aerobars and my arms to a large degree.

When I did the recent field test, even though it was fairly cool, I noticed the front of my skinsuit was quite wet afterwards. I'd never noticed this when riding in a conventional position, presumably because the greater airflow was drying the front of the skinsuit (and cooling me off)

Evaporative cooling makes a big difference, particularly at 70 degrees (or hotter) in the dry western US, like where I live. If you're racing in the UK, where it's 50 degrees and 90% humidity on a good day, it's not much of a factor.

So I'd bet you dollars to donuts, if I repeat the trial outdoors, or indoors with a big fan, there will be a significant disparity in average heartrates between the mantis and conventional positions. And that difference will be due to differential rates of cooling, not bio-mechanics.

---

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

I'm amazed he didn't clip a pedal - he corners inside foot down -

---

____________________________________

Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |

Just goes to show how far you have to lean it to clip pedal. That wasn't even close to the leans in crits. Impressive descent though!

I will ask the question. When you first went to your 'mantis' position did you lose power initially? If so how did you adapt to ride as well as you can now and obviously generate solid power? Are you pulling down from the hands or cocking your wrists to tense the front end to pull on the bars? If you care to read my posts I found I lost that solid foundation to pull on the bars as my hands went up and you are the most extreme out there.

 



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28985477

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21214352

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27571045

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1490985

---

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

Bonjour Antony

amusant de se croiser sur un forum américain alors que l'on est tous les deux du sud ouest (je suis né a Cahors).

Congrats for your race in Kona, it was great. See you in the main group during bike was really excellent news for french triathlon !
It was also great exposure for the Morftec, as you look so aero and different.

I would love to know your CdA with the Morftech, but I guess it is confidential. 0.195 ? (just trying :-)

Personnally (much lower level than you are) I ride at race pace really relaxed on the hand and arms and shoulders (was the same in pursuit), so probably keep stabilized pulling on the other pedal, or just locking the hip with the core (less pressure than my weight on the working pedal).
I can raise my hand very high, it doesn't impact my pedaling mechanics, apparently. Good candidate for the MorfTech.
Is it commercial yet ?

Maybe you should read the report. He's talking about forces so great that you naturally stand on the bike. That isn't IM cruising speeds. And if Mantis interfered with his ability to "generate power" why do you think he uses it?

Mate read what he wrote...

Basically:

- 3 main vertical forces exist in cycling (applied on the pedals, applied on the handlebar, weight on the saddle)

- the harder you push downward on the pedals (higher power/lower cadence), the more reaction force in the opposite (upward) direction you get. Think about a jump: the harder you push on the ground, the higher you will jump... Once you exceed your bodyweight!

- the upward reaction force on the pedals can commonly exceed the weight on the saddle

- if you want to stay seated and/or stable on your saddle, you have to either 1) pull on the controlateral pedal 2) pull on the handlebar 3) accelerate your trunk downward

Note 'the common reaction force on the pedals commonly exceed the weight on the saddle.' Commonly not unusually and not in reference to the study. Hence you need to pull on the handle bar as I have been saying not just support your weight that your pedal stroke will not exceed as you have been claiming.

I was asking him to explain if it did and if so there was a way he overcame it. You've already been proved wrong so let the expert and man I asked answer if he wants to.

In the summer, avg high in London is 78F and probably humid. Humidity greatly inhibits the ability of the body to reject heat via sweating and evaporation. I'll take dry western US air any day!

The studies you referenced were about cooling in excessively hot environments. If you aren't flirting with your bodies temperature handling limits (core temperature rising) I don't think you'd suffer a power loss in either position.

I suggest you look up the forces applied to the pedals at typical racing speeds. Your constant assertion that you need to crank on the bars with your arms in order to pedal is plain silly. Sure if you weigh 100 lbs and can do a 112mi TT at >400W you may generate enough force to lift off the saddle, but I doubt that is what you are experiencing ;)

Antony

also noticed the strips on your left calf.
Move the boundary layer from laminar to turbulent to reduce calf drag ? Same principles as "picot" vortex generation, but in linear form ?

In St Georges you had some calf compression kit with a strip at the same place also ? Commercially available ?

Mate in you opinion not engineer Antony it seems you disagree with? Thanks for adding nothing to what I am hoping to get answered yet again. I am wanting to create a solid foundation to the front end and rely less on my core for stability. It all trickles down from producing large power to racing power you need it for efficiency. Maybe tonking along on an easy training ride not so much. I am basing all this on my findings not crap you probably read on this forum and are now an expert?

That's just my point. Airflow doesn't make as much of a difference in humid conditions, because evaporative cooling is minimal. You're going to be hot whether you mantis or not.




Totally disagree. The trade-off between temperature and power output is curvi-linear starting at fairly low temps, it does not just start at some really high threshold:

https://www.physiology.org/...plphysiol.00367.2010



When you're generating 250-300 watts, you're generating more heat than a hair dryer on full blast and it's easy to push high core temperatures even when the ambient temperatures are fairly low. Check out XC ski racers, who wear practically nothing when it's 15 degrees.

I can tell you from lots of experience, airflow has a major impact on both cooling and power output even at fairly low temperatures (50-60 deg.). Anybody who has been on an indoor trainer both with and without a fan can tell you that. Turn on a big fan and voila! you have an extra 10 watts.

---

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

Hello jens and All,

Another cooling reference:

https://groups.google.com/...lHCTrFQ/zdGJFdBv1Q8J

---

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Hello Shambolic and All,

If your theory is valid ..... looks like what is needed to relax the upper body is a seat belt or better yet ..... a clip in butt rig. Sit and you click into to the seat. Twerk and you are released.

Legs do the work and upper body relaxed.

In the olden days of triathlon some riders experimented with a cable attached 'bike to body' to generate more power .... I have seen pics of the rig here on ST.

---

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

Heat kills me. I got heatstroke a couple decades ago in a race >100F and I've had low tolerance since. I wouldn't even think of riding hard on a trainer without a couple fans. And when I used to put my trainer on the deck at 30F I needed a fan then too (bad idea, but that's another story). But I figured I was an outlier. If modest temperatures are enough to slow you down, why do people going for hour records want temperatures 80-85F?

I know airflow, temperature, and humidity matter. But in this case you are postulating that the mantis position blocks airflow enough to inhibit cooling and degrade your power production, even with modest (70F or less?) temperatures. Do you observe a drop off in power with temperature when you do intervals outside? I can do as well at 85F as 50F (not humid), for TT intervals up to 15min anyway. That should be long enough to see something.

It will be interesting to see what you come up with.

Ceteris paribus, at record-level speeds (50kph), going from 60 degrees to 85 degrees equates to 17 watts less air resistance.



IME, the heat effect doesn't really start to kick in until after about 20 minutes. I actually have a fairly large dataset of 30-40-minute intervals from 50-75 degrees conducted both with and without fans. The HR is virtually identical in most of them for the first 15 minutes or so. It varies a lot after that, depending on the temperature and fan/no fan.

---

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

It's 4.8% anyway, and lower air density means lower power output as well. I was thinking about Aguascalientes where everyone wanted to wait for it to get >80F. You are already at 6,000ft so the drag gains from further lowering air density are nearly balanced by the power reduction. If it's hot enough to reduce power in addition, it doesn't seem like optimal conditions.

HR/watts does climb when it's hot, but HR is a poor proxy for pretty much anything we care about. The question is, is it hot enough to inhibit your power output, and how much?

According to the link you posted above, it looks like 15min is long enough to see a big difference if it's hot (40C or 104F), even though core temperature was the same in both cases: "Ely et al. (22) examined 15-min cycling TT performance in two environments (20 and 40°C), which produced Tsk of 31 and 36°C, similar to MacDougal et al. (58), while Tc remained near 38°C. Ely et al. (22) found that ratings of perceived exertion (RPE), heart rate (HR), and Tc were similar between self-paced trials. Total work performed at 40°C was 15–20% less than 20°C (with test CV ∼5%)"

This is the reason we can't have nice things.

Hello

what Antony Costes says is true, of course, it is physics law. But it does work differently for different peoples.

I made some experiments yesterday. Took my road bike to some D+ and tested different things.

1) vertical balance (you push on pedal, does your butt leave the saddle ?) : even at 400w, RPM 100, butt not leaving the saddle, without help of a belt, or grabbing the bar

2) lateral balance (you push on right pedal, do you fall on the left side of the bike ?): more tricky
I tested up to 250w (more than I apply in a 70.3), RPM 75. I tested how I grab the bar. Well... finished with only one finger on each side, with no pressure on it. And my torso do not seems moving.
I don't need any help of hand/arm to stay stable on the bike pushing the pedals. So I searched how this was working, at least for me.
Answer is : when pushing on right pedal, the bike slightly angle to the left, then pushing left pedal, bike slightly angle to the right.
My core absorb this small left / right movement of the bike, while my torso do not move, and shoulders, arms and hands are totally relaxed.

I suppose others peoples might have different strategies to keep their balance (consciously or not). Including using their hands/arms/shoulders.

For me it probably came from track work, at 120+ RPM, trying to keep hand and arm relaxed, mandatory in tight peloton races.

I agree it works for different people and especially different distances. So as you say at 250W which I come close to averaging on a good IM you were using relatively little support. I generally average low 80 cadence now and in the only IM I did more mantis my power was initially fine but tapered away with fatigue holding stability as you can do but relying on core, not having as strong foundation as I can create up front. I have said all along I feel I can generate the power but it doesn't feel as easily generated and my max power is lower. Why purely rely on core to stop bobbing about when having a more solid front end you can have to rely on it less with a more tenses hands/arms locking your shoulders. I'm not tearing my bars off but have some tension. I understand all this and as I have said I found a way to overcome what I found a more relaxed front as my arms went up and could keep the ability for me to maintain power. I was trying to share my findings with the OP and GreenPlease who said they lost power going mantis to have rruff who just has followed me across three treads now to say I didn't lose power, Antony Coates is full of shit as well, I'm right, your wrong but I have nothing to add...

If you look at the example pictures I sent from the Olympics the rider who won gold Cancellara was in a pure power position if you want to trial that with hands lower than elbows and pads forward of elbows and tell me differences in max power you can produce as compared to what you can in mantis I would be interested in. I have done this. This is all trickle down when it comes to riding efficiency. Maybe I have an inefficient pedal stroke and rely on having tension through my front end, maybe it's I have a weak core but rruff says core has no impact I find that very funny. Especially because it come out now he does short racing like 40km and I'm talking about Ironmans. I don't know but as Antony said generally you need to apply more force than your body can provide and maybe in the short time you tested you could do it with core? I would be interested in what Antony has to say but after the antics that have gone on in this thread he would be unlikely to respond. He actually used to ride a very powerful position before going up. Hence I would be interested in his input.
http://antony-costes.onlinetri.com/index.php?page_id=8232&news_id=54547

This has all become a side track and people trying to discredit what I was initially asking by sharing what I could see what may the true answer from my findings.

If going mantis is more aero then why aren't the top uber cyclists in IRONMAN doing it more so?

I have had one poster say as yaw angles increase then it isn't as aero but the trend had been that going mantis is more aero and with the relaxed position guidelines for tt racing in the UK they are all going very mantis and even the UCI cyclists are starting to go that way. I actually find it a more comfortable position that has won me over more than anything.

Maybe it is relying less on core for the bike and that helps keeping it fresh for a run off the bike (definitely not Starky) I don't know there may be other reasons but no one seems to actually want to approach. Starykowicz, Kienle, Frodeno, Weiss who was actually flatter (less mantis) than years before at Kona and rode second fasted bike and I think highest average power NP 334W, why aren't they going more mantis?

I know very basic summary this article sums it up. It says mantis relaxes your arms as I've stated and is it because biomechanically they lose the ability to generate power over an Ironman and those loses are greater than the aero gains?

https://triathlonworld.com/gear/hit-your-best-triathlon-bike-split-nailing-your-suit-helmet-wheels-and-position-144987

Aerodynamics is not a single step, but a process. It is no coincidence that professional athletes invest several hours in aerodynamic measurements to optimize their position and equipment. Here’s a summary of our findings from our MAD Days tests:

1. Postion is where you need to start. Athletes achieve their greatest success through a biomechanically optimized position combined with an aerodynamic position. Those should be taken care of with a professional bike fitting.

As you say, many different questions

Mantis more aero ?
it seems that high mantis give very good results in some cases, but of course it depend on many parameters. Possibly in some cases you don't need to go that high to reach your peak aero.

Mantis vs power ?
probably each rider have its own way of pushing on the pedals, using muscle chain differently (or different muscle chains) to stay stable, and this is changing with fatigue. If going to use the arms when core fatiguing (apparently your case), certainly the way to put the arms have an impact.
If I remember well Tony Martin went to low mantis at some point (from flat) then went back a bit. He saw the aero advantage, but this was probably too much a change for his muscle chain ?

Why uberbiker not going higher mantis ?
it is a risk to change position, and adaptation of muscle chain take time. When you are already very good at this game, it is probably difficult to invest a few months of adaptation for an insecure result. Probably more difficult for an "old" uberbiker to adapt, than new comers. Look at Lucy Charles position for 2018m compared to 2017. Probably aero optimized, and she can adapt more easily, as she is new to the game. Muscular chains still to be fully develop. I suspect CdA around 0.185, and less than 200w average in Kona for her.

I agree and good input. The kind of conversation I was hoping for not 'you don't lose power.' I do think power and cadence fall into that fact and why you will see uber biker Ryf in classic power and a more slight Charles with less power probably higher cadence going more mantis aero maybe compare to a Lange. As I say look at Weiss position on the same bike at Kona over the last few years and he has actually gone flatter this year. It is a trade off for riding style, power and aero gains and he is a power rider. Aero are proven easy gains but if you lose power then you will be reluctant to go there. The more uber bikers seem more concerned about getting aero gain through going narrow over raised hands that is probably more biomechanically optimized for them staying flatter? As you say there are so many variables in play and every athlete is different. I just wanted to have a reasonable discussion like we are now.

250w=184.4 ft-lbf/sec
80rpm=4.4 ft/sec assuming 160mm cranks

so ~42 lbf at pedal for entire revolution if you assume you only apply force for 50% of revolution, then ~84 lbf during power application. you are going to have to be pretty small to lift yourself off saddle or put out mega watts(as rruff says) . I used to do 500w+ for 1 min in aero with no tension in arms. the folks I know that pull on extensions do so cuz its just how they learned to ride(and tend to be more squirrelly, in general) and any force generated pulling up is lost at armrests. if you use you core and pull up on bars on a road bike, you can pop a wheelie

Everyone keeps saying this so tell me why Cancellara in the position I showed at the olympics is reefing on the bars at say 400W in a less aero position? Antony Coates said you need to put force on the bars, I'm saying I need to put force on the bars. I need to create a solid foundation to not rely on my core in an Ironman. You must have an extreme core to not put force on the bars at 500W and it isn't sustainable. I'm talking 4-5 hours efficiency. It is about creating a solid shape using more major muscles to save your core and enable more efficient power transfer.

Once again as you seem to be an 'expert' then answer my question rather than attack what I have personally found and explained.

If going mantis is more aero then why aren't the top uber cyclists in IRONMAN doing it more so?

it's not more aero for me, maybe it isn't for them

I did not attack in anyway, just pointing out science



experiment.....get on trainer, ride at 250w in bars, now sit up riding no hands and notice power does not drop, rest is supliferous(sp), doesn't mean you don't prefer your method(damn double negative, you get the point)

or...….one could ride a road bike like that horrible example of a cyclist in the chevy or gmc truck commercial(makes me want to barf) :)


edit: and I don't know how those folks in the tdf can ride the invisible aerobars, but they do as do others on this board

I get the point but as Antony Coates who has done a study on it that the amount of force you exert on the pedals is more that just sitting on the seat supplies and you need to pull on the bars, a perfect pedal stroke (that very few people would have) or accelerate the trunk. You can rely on your core but I find it more efficient not to.

my core is crap, as every PT I have ever been to has told me.

I tried riding down the road once pulling on the bars some, that was not entertaining. I prefer to put my energy into my legs and not waste in my arms, in my case. my bars have no tape on extensions, hands get sweaty,I usually just hook one finger under the edge of the shifters unless its a rough road, then 2 or 3. my pinky finger is not going to support a whole lot of load. I also suffer from carpal tunnel in both hands, so cannot, even if I wanted to, grip the bars with any force for long(also why I XC skate ski sans poles) your abs and lower back will support a lot of load and do whether you are trying to do something or not.

sitting upright on a chair, I just applied some single foot force to a scale knee bent at 90deg with hands crossed on chest, less than ideal, result....52 lbs( I am weakened from open heart surgery so have pity on me, plus my legs are killing from second day of trying to jog on treadmill(reminds me of why I don't run much, ugh))

end result...ride how you want as it works for you. just supplying my anecdotes here

Are you posting here under both the names Shambolic and Hambini?

Haha no haven't seen any Hambini posts?

I did some hard intervals on the trainer the other day, and at 500W my butt stays put with no input from my arms. My core isn't doing much either. Is core fatigue really a thing? I've experienced fatigue of my pedaling muscles (legs and glutes), which leads to a break down of form (more moving around)... I guess so I can engage the muscles a little differently so I can get more out of them. But my core isn't working hard as long as I'm in the saddle.

Curious, did you lose power in mantis? A lot of people here claim they do.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/training/strong-to-the-core-31235


https://tridot.com/why-core-strength-is-so-important-for-triathlon

Yes, I know plenty of people tout the importance of core strength in cycling. It's quite the fad. It isn't true though unless you're a track sprinter.

If you are bracing with your back, stomach tense, or pushing or pulling on the bars to ride at 250W, I know you are applying forces that are *unnecessary*. I know because I don't do it, and most *good* riders don't either. And pretty simple physics will show you that it's unnecessary as well.

But that doesn't mean you *can't* apply unnecessary forces. Since it doesn't directly effect the muscles you are using to turn the cranks, it may not even slow you down. So knock yourself out, rowing on those bars. On the other hand if you'd like to learn how to pedal without unnecessary tension, that could be an interesting discussion.

my mantis wasn't that extreme, 15deg plus "tall" extensions, but at anything above 10cm above armrest for extension end, CdA goes up for me.

I did not note any power loss 0-15deg, but then I made sure I kept elbow drop the same. My guess is that not all folks make sure they keep it apples to apples and end up with more drop as they go more mantis and don't take it into account.(it can be substantial) since I keep my elbows on armrest, it is easy for me to know how much to adjust drop to stay the same.

I'd also need more reach to go more mantis as my helmet touches my arms at 15 deg with my head tuck

I do(well, did) seated 700-800w uphill repeats(short duration) seated, no arm tension butt did not go anywhere, rpms for that are 115-125

Hello

well... no, you are totally wrong.

some peoples here concentrate on the VERTICAL aspect : "when I push on my pedal, will my butt quit the saddle ?". This is NOT the problem. In tri the pedal push is too light. And in sprint, you pull nearly as much on opposite pedal. So, not a problem.

The real point is LATERAL ROTATION : I push on right pedal, and (sometimes) pull on left pedal. Logically, my butt should rotate left massively. So, what prevent my butt / hip to rotate left ?
The.... what ?.... the.... CORE

The CORE muscles prevent the hips to go left and right, curving your spine alternatively on both sides. They ensure the link between the hips and the torso, making possible to stabilize the hips LATERALLY using torso weight (in my case, mainly through slight bike angulation, in some other cases through elbow on the pads, or arms and hands).

When Shambolic express he need a "strong foundation", probably it is not core weakness, but simply lack of equilibrium. His core is not weak, simply it doesn't succeed in counteracting pedaling effect (lateral rotation, NOT vertical take off) with torso weight, so it use arms/hands. But the stabilizing force is still transmitted via core.

And for you, you use your core muscles. Even if you don't know it. If you pedal soft, you use them soft.If you pedal hard, you use them hard. Without the core muscles (essentially lateral one, not abdo), your hips will be wobbling around, and your spine will hurt.

Yes core is quite a fad you really are an expert it seems and I'm sure all top sport athletes including triathletes will agree. Despite all articles, Antony Coates input who studied it and everything else you keep believing that...

'Core strength will allow you to handle the output generated by your legs so you can stay in the proper triathlon bike position for the entirety of the race. You’ll protect your back muscles, you’ll increase your oxygen intake, and you’ll stay efficient longer.'

Hello

I think you use your core. You can't do without. Let me explain :

The real point is LATERAL ROTATION : I push on right pedal, and (sometimes) pull on left pedal. Logically, my butt should rotate left massively. So, what prevent my butt / hip to rotate left ?
The CORE

The CORE muscles prevent the hips to go left and right, curving your spine alternatively on both sides. They ensure the link between the hips and the torso, making possible to stabilize the hips LATERALLY using torso weight or anchor via arms/hands.

Personally, I stabilize my hips laterally (through core muscles) via torso weight and bike angulation left/right and elbow pressure on the pads, being relaxed on shoulders, arms and hands. Mantis not an issue.

In your case, I suppose if you express the need for a "strong foundation", probably it is not core weakness, but simply lack of stabilization through equilibrium. Core is not weak, simply it doesn't succeed in counteracting pedaling effect (lateral rotation, NOT vertical take off) with torso weight, so you use arms/hands. But the stabilizing forces are still transmitted via core.

I think this was also the case for Cancellara.

Look at Cancellara : it move quite a bit the torso, and apparently quite use the arms : reasons for flat bars ?
Now look at Wiggins (approx same weight, same power) : no torso move, relaxed in the arms/hand. Because of track background ? And going mantis easily (see its Hour Record position).

Core is used in both cases : you and Cancellara, to transmit arm effort to stabilize ? Wiggins and me (could be worse as a comparaison :-) to transmit torso weight to stabilize ?

Like the comparaisons ?

You're preaching to the converted here I understand it and as I explained. With the more solid foundation I used primary muscles more to create a shape to counteract that lateral rotation forcers. When I didn't have that support of primary muscles, I relied on core for stability and over the course of four plus hours and my core fatigued, my peddling efficiency dropped and so did power. That is what happened... I have quite a strong core but that isn't to say I couldn't condition it more.

Cancellara is a power rider monstering a big gear and Wiggins finesses at I am sure a slightly higher cadence but yes with a track background and both will be generating forces on the bars. Ryf is bobbing about counteracting pedalling forces through her core with a strong position on the bars as she puts out big power for her weight at lower cadence and she rides that way from early in the Ironman...

I get it and I'm done with it but thanks for your input. Seems some people can't accept they are wrong? Once again he doesn't approach the question I am asking just attacking my findings even though through my sharing I explained how I found the fix and explained it. I personally believe it is more power related so was interested in the discussion.

If going mantis is more aero then why aren't the top uber cyclists in IRONMAN doing it more so?

It takes a miniscule amount of effort to counter that. For most of us it's less force than it takes to stand.

And when someone's hips rock while pedaling, which way do they actually move? Away from the force, or towards it? Hint:
https://www.youtube.com/embed/DBlumXFuLt8
See if you can find someone who rocks their hips in the way that you say. For instance right hip comes up while pressing down with the right leg.

Several possibilities, I guess

1) in some cases, they tested in wind tunnel and find no gain ?

2) they find gains, but are afraid of changing position for little gain ?

3) for some of them, it will happen ? Look at Alex Dowsett position (not a tri guy, but interesting exemple). In 2015 he was low mantis (Hour record preparation wind tunnel pictures, and all other pictures), in 2018 if you look at photos from the UCI TT Worlds he is significantly higher hands, despite UCI rules constraint. He uses max possible value (10cm), plus some additional offset from elbow being below bottom of pads.

In 2015 for HR he was already below CdA 0.18 (with 2 lenticular), he is still pushing its aero going from low to med mantis. UCI not authorize high mantis.

1) wrong again

2) I suspect you did not understand what I mean. And the mechanic of this. You mix cause and consequences.

I understand you just cannot recognize you are wrong. Your problem, not mine. Bye.

   
So here's some anecdata on Regular and Mantis position and temperature. All trials were for 40 minutes at 240 watts; temp of 70 degrees.

#1) Mantis position; no fan: avg HR: 141
#2) Arms flat; no fan: ave HR: 140

#3) Mantis position with fan: avg HR 138
#4) Arms flat with fan: avg HR: 135


So, there is maybe some indication that a flat-arm position allows you to cool more from airflow than the Mantis position does. A couple of additional points:

* I was not wearing a helmet. So I had the benefit of substantial cooling on my head when the fan was on. With a helmet on, the relative advantage of the arms-flat position would probably be more apparent.

* For 1 out of every 10 minutes, I rode in an upright position (relief for arthritis in my hip joint). This may have also diminished the difference between #3 and #4 a little.


A 3 BPM difference for a steady run like this in the 135BPM range is borderline significant in my book. Normally, I'd only see that kind of difference with decent-size difference in temperature, altitude, or fitness. I know, It's hardly compelling proof. But I encourage others to try similar experiments.

---

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

That is interesting. Were these trials performed on different days or closer together? How did the effort feel, high hands vs low?

Each trial on a different day. RPE is definitely higher for high hands both with and without a fan. Though curiously, this was not reflected in data from the trials without a fan, where the avg HR was almost identical with both low and high hands.

I feel like there's still something we're all missing here. I just don't see how angling your forearms up can have any direct influence on the force exerted by your legs. I am a masher extraordinaire. When I was younger I did short TTs with wattage over 300 at a cadence around 70. I never felt like I had to pull on the aerobars. Even if I did, I think I could have pulled on them just as well with my forearms angled up. Yet I, and whole lot of other people, seem to find it harder to generate the same power with our forearms up.

One possibility, is that the Mantis position is inadvertently causing people to have more extension than they do normally. Even if the pads are in exactly the same place, resting on the olecranon (Mantis position), rather than the area just fore of the olecranon could mean an extra cm or two of extension. Just a thought.

---

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

My day to day variation in HR/W is more than what you are seeing. But maybe you are more consistent? If this is a workout you do regularly, then you'd know what "normal" is. If it feels harder, that's certainly meaningful. Your FTP is pretty close to 240W isn't it?

I know from experience that I can't replicate your test, using HR as a measure of physiological stress. I'd have to do a very near maximal effort, and I'm too old to be doing that very often. I had low hands in my first race this year, and mantis in the three others. When I switched my power didn't drop doing intervals, and it was what I expected in races too. If I am losing anything, it's very little. Are you normally sensitive to front end changes?

RChung wrote:

Are you posting here under both the names Shambolic and Hambini?

I did search the thread for Hambini after you posted this and saw his name popped up in the cut thread today. Funny enough I was watching a video of Team Sky on a aero testing company website and all the other videos of similar genre pop up on youtube that you can select to watch on the side and there was a name I recognised as the poster. I think this may be your man...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YUo1ryCFm8

Thanks. That explains more than I thought it would.

FTP is about 260. I have a fairly consistent record for this particular workout. However, given normal HR variability and the variability in the Hammer trainer, I'm not going to make much of the relatively small HR differences. Based on PE, I'm going with the guess that switching to the mantis position, ceteris paribus, results in slightly more extension.

---

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

RIP.

https://plus.google.com/...29/posts/hmAiHQjav2C

That's horrible. Any more information on this?

RIP Frank.

RIP. From the interactions I had with Frank he was very pleasant fellow.

---

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

RIP.

I’d befriended him over the last two years while he developed his bars. Great guy in every way. RIP Frank.

Man I hate reading this stuff...

RIP

RIP - this is horrible news, and I am incredibly saddened to hear this.

I last corresponded with Frank 1-2 months ago as I was continuing to provide feedback on the Morf bars. I'm so sorry to hear this and so very sorry for his family.

Man, sad to hear that. Not seeing any more info regarding what happened, but I guess that will come later.

I'm hearing it might have been a bicycle crash? Um, which leads to wonder...and I'm totally speculating here, but wonder if it didn't have something to do with the bars. I hope not.

To be honest, it could be a thousand other things but this also crossed my mind. But whatever the reason it is another cyclist accident where a familiy is loosing a member.

That is such sad news and my thoughts go out to his family.

RIP

Jeroen

---

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

Also speculating, I'd wager it was a visibility issue. He rode early in the morning and, at this time of the year, in the dark, as that was the only time he had due to work and family commitments. I'm sure we'll know the actual cause in due time.

So this wasn't a motor vehicle related "accident" then?

---

---

Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset

No idea. I don't have any more information than anyone else here. Just shooting from the hip.

 
I only communicated with Frank through email. But from that it was clear that he was a guy with a great sense of humor and a cleverness and passion for what he did. I am very sad for his family. I'm guessing from his early prototype videos he had at least one young kid. That's heartbreaking.

---

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

I heard third or fourth van something about running into a truck/bus. I haven’t seen anything on the news or in the local papers though which is weird.

The most important part of this thread is what is written on the T Shirt (OK I am biased as I have two close family members who went there for their MSc)....OK back to morph

I met Frank when he was traveling through Tucson and got to try his Morf-Tech bar in a poorly lit parking lot at a park at night. It was an awesome experience. He had like 3 TT bikes neatly lined up in the back of a minivan/SUV.

There is no information online about the circumstances of his sudden death. There might be a lawsuit, open police investigation, etc, and maybe some sorts of a gag order?

I hope we find out eventually. Houston roads are amongst the deadliest in the country.

Condolences to Frank's family and friends.

---

Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.

It looks like the family has set up a trust to help with the children's education:

https://www.legacy.com/...35725&fhid=10720

"Springett was killed last week after crashing his bicycle into a school bus"

The idea that an experienced cyclist like Frank would crash into a 13-ton bright yellow high viz object baffles me. Most school bus vs. bike crashes are due to the school bus driver failing to yield.

https://abc13.com/triathlete-remembered-after-fatal-bicycle-crash-involving-bus/5122425/

---

Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.

I wonder if the ST main page will dig into this and cover it more? I hope so.

While we have never tried his bars, it seems like Frank's invention was a significant and practical contribution to the sport and to the state of the art.

Definitely worthy of some detailed Slowtwitch coverage of what happened, and perhaps an idea of where things will go from here.

---

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
--

Yes, there is a major lack of info on this. The news reports make it sound like he was at fault (he crashed into a bus), but no details are given.