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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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So you're saying that Hendrix was a super-elite marathoner then..

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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I LOVE THAT QUOTE TOO! I'm going to write it on a piece of paper and tape it to my wall... and then my roommate will ask me "what the hell does that mean?" (she's not a runner)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [More is MORE] [ In reply to ]
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No, but he was one hell of a blues guitarist.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Barry, at least that will give him something to shoot for. I hope you do not mind, I am going to print of the OP and give it to him to read.

Mike

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, thanks for the excellent post. When I started 6 years ago I entered a marathon preparation program which featured a fair bit of interval and tempo work. Several of us newbies promptly developed injuries.

Since then I have been a big believer in making injury prevention a priority for new runners and for me that means being careful with speed work.

Sure, speed work can make you faster but it is hard to get faster when you can't run because of an injury.

I agree with the earlier comments that your post is worthy of printing and saving for others to read.

Grant

Grant

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Great, now I just have to figure how much cake to bake.

jaretj
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Good job. Well written so people can (hopefully but this is ST) grasp the concepts.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome post!!!

How much is enough miles though ?

Let's say your a short course guy who's pretty balanced all around.

What kind of weekly run mileage is required in the base phases before hitting the track in the summer for some 24x400's ?
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Yes Paulo, I stole your title ; ^ )

I wanted to cover some basics of distance running, particularly regarding LSD versus higher intensity training. The question often comes up, "which is better?" to which I respond, "which is better for what?" You need both! Asking which is better is kind of like asking which organ is more important; your heart or your brain?

You will often see a question posted "how can *I* get better at running?" This is often followed up with, "how much are you running?" and replied with, "15 to 20 miles per week."

At that point you'll see either Desert Dude or myself (or Paulo, Qcassidy, Doug in Co, etocaj, and some others) simply say, "you need to run more"........which is often followed by a really long thread full of debates over the importantce of high intensity training versus LSD.

So, here I am hoping to try to clear up some misunderstandings about low intensity versus high intensity training.

IMO, THE number one benefit to low intensity training is that it minimizes the amount of stress you put on your body, thus allowing you to do MORE running. Running, unlike cycling and swimming, is a high impact activity. IT BEATS YOU UP! You need to, among other things, build up your body's tolerance to the activity.

"But what about high intenisty training? Many elites do lots of it." Yes, that is absolutely true. And YOU should do it too.....when you are fully prepared for it.

Early on in your running career, you will need many months of strictly LSD training before attempting higher intensity workouts. Some coaches suggest even as much as a full year before adding any significant amounts of speed. A novice runner may be best served by running LSD only for 4 months, and then incorporating a 20 minute tempo run once week for another month, and then incorporating an additional 5 weeks of 3-5 minute intervals with 2 minute breaks a bit faster than 5K pace.

However, if the same runner was to do this for 5 years, they will stop seeing improvements. Hence the infamous "More is more" thread. More training must be done in order to stimulate the body to improve. In this case, more training entails MORE slow miles during the base period, longer faster tempo runs during the transition (early quailty, preparation, etc.) phase, and more intense intervals during the sharpening phase. In fact, the sharpening phase may even be extended for a longer period.

And the process continues. To see more improvements, MORE must be done (disclaimer: this is assuming that you were doing optimal training....not over training.)



Now, to further explain this process, I'll go back to the original question. Which is better? The fact is, high intensity training will actualy stimulate more improvement in your running. Yes, now I am saying that high intenisty training is better. There's no argument. A well trained athlete will see their greatest short term improvements during their high intensity phase. However, this phase puts the most stress on the body. A better prepared athlete will be able to handle more stress.

"What do you mean by better prepared?" Someone who has run MORE MILES! Every now and then soomeone will point me to an article showing the high amounts of intensity that an elite athlete is doing and question why *I'd* suggest less intensity. To put it simply, YOU don't have the miles under your belt that HE does. Someone pointed me to a nice article today pointing out that Kenyans will perform 60% of their training at over 90% maxHR during their intense period. However, the article ALSO pointed out that they spent TEN YEARS prior running 100% of their training LSD!!!

So, if I can TRY to give a concrete summary:

Novice runner - MOSTLY LSD with short periods of intensity near goal race.

intermediate runner - MORE LSD. Add 1 Tempo run 3 months from goal race. Add 6K of V02max interval training 5 weeks from goal race.

Advanced runner - EVEN MORE LSD. More intensity during later phases. Later phases can be extended to 4 months and maybe 8 weeks.

Elite Runner (most elite triathletes don't even fit in this category) - More LSD still! Intense training still follows same fundamentals but these athletes may run a higher percentage of their over all training at high intensities. They may also begin adding in crazy workouts that are outside the realm of what is considered fundamentaly correct. They've done fundamentaly correct training for many years. They may need a different stimulous to continue to improve.

Summary: Many of you will improve if you run MORE first, then run harder later.

Makes sense?




------------------------------------------------------------
Searching for the bliss of ultimate exertion.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [ronnieg] [ In reply to ]
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"What kind of weekly run mileage is required in the base phases before hitting the track in the summer for some 24x400's ?"

As much as is practical. I don't think you can base it solely on mileage, because for many the true maximum potential is rarely acheved and even more rarely maintained due to the time constraints of 'real life'.

If you're trying to break through on your running, perhaps the best way to do it is to spend some off-season training time building a run focus by taking your total weekly training time, factoring 2 swims and 2 rides as maintenance, and then gradually build up until you are filling the whole of the rest of your training time with LSD running. Closer to the season, you can then try re-balancing the programme and adding, in the first instance tempo work and then, later still, (using BarryP's model) intervals.


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PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, question for you. I'm preparing for a fast February marathon. I typically do 4 run workouts a week. Intervals, hills, tempo and LSD. Is it okay to incorporate 1 mile pickups during the long steady? (I've been running a long time). Did a 1:31 1/2 marathon and trying to go under 3 hours for a full.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [fade] [ In reply to ]
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Thanx , it sounds like great advice. I've been thinking about doing that for a couple of years , but have been afraid to lose cycling prowess.

I hear lots of running messes up your biking big time. I've never ran more than 30 miles in a week and have only done that once . I average 15 miles p/w usualy .

We'll see , I'm gonna try it.. Thanx again
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [ronnieg] [ In reply to ]
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A lot of how much cycling 'prowess' you keep will probably depend on what you do as 'maintenance cycling'. What sort of riding do you currently do?


Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, grt explanation. A question. LSD can be boring. If you carry on a conversation, which I believe should be possible during low intensity z1 lsd, and your heart rate bumps up 10-15bpm but you're not out of breath are you still in z1 and achieving lsd objectives?
Peter
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [konz] [ In reply to ]
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Very nice post, Barry.

I might add that once one develops a nice aerobic base, the majority of their "speedwork" should be geared more towards tempo running vs track workouts. Tempo running is easier on the body and IMO, a better vehicle to reach one's highest potential in running. Most non-elite runners run track workouts way too fast early, then fade in the later intervals, leading to poor pacing. I found this out the hard way!!!

Here is a well written article, by quite a respected coach I might add, on the benefits of tempo running

http://www.runningtimes.com/articles/?id=8093

Best

Mark
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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...or, in "Iron speak," you can't sharpen the blade uptil you have forged the steel.

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [ronnieg] [ In reply to ]
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It's all about how you balance your program. Each individual is different. However, for any of us, the sky is the limit.

Several months before your "racing season" you should focus on running "as much as possible." Yes, you still need to fit in swimming and cycling. It's up to you to figure out how much you can handle, how much available time you have, etc. However, because we train three sports, it is really virtualy impossible to run too much.

If you are ONLY RUNNING, and are training for a 5K or longer, I wouldn't worry about running too much until you reach at least 80 miles per week (don't laugh!). Now, and I want to make myself VERY clear here, I'm NOT saying that YOU should run 80 miles a week. YOU might only be able to handle 25 miles per week. My point is that your GOAL should be to continue to increase that number as much as your body will allow.

Now, since 99.9% of us fit into the "80 miles per week or LESS" category, I recommend that you spend about 50% of your training time leading up to your goal race on LSD running. By this I mean if your goal race is in 6 months, the first 3 should focus on building long slow mileage. If it is in 4 months, then spend 2 months in this period.

The remaining period should phase in tempo runs and even some LIGHT track work (ie....6x200 quick, but not sprinting....should fee comfortable).

The last phase will be very individual. I TYPICALY recommend adding in V02max intervals in the last 4 to 5 weeks. I also typicaly recommend that they total about 6,000 meters. This is assuming you have been running around 20+ miles per week for a triathlete or 35+ miles per week for a runner. A more advanced runner can extend this period out as far as 12 weeks. (FYI - I'm a top 2% triathlete runner and only do this for 6 weeks!).

As you gain experience and continue to log your workouts, you should notice a point where your workouts stop improving. THAT is roughly how long you should them for. For example, this year you may plan to do 8 weeks of V02max. The first week you'll notice that you can run 6 minute pace. The next is 5:53 pace, then 5:50, 5:49, 5:47, 5:48, 5:47, 5:49, 5:50. Here you should notice that you really stopped gaining any benefit from the workouts 4 weeks into it. Next year you'll likely want to shorten this phase.

"WHAT IF I HAVE MORE THAN 6 MONTHS TO TRAIN?" I like 6 month build ups to a race. If you have 9 months or more, I like to take the first 3 or 4 months and create a mini peak out of it. Maybe shoot for a 5k road race in December and do a little bit of track work and tempo training leading up to it.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [konz] [ In reply to ]
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Your heart rate can climb during a longer run. There are a lot of things that can effect heart rate, so don't be a slave to the monitor. Pace (given normal terrain) is more of an indicator than anything. If your HR goes up but your pace is the same as it normaly is in z1 AND you feel the way you normaly do, then you are fine.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [RoughOnStuff] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, question for you. I'm preparing for a fast February marathon. I typically do 4 run workouts a week. Intervals, hills, tempo and LSD. Is it okay to incorporate 1 mile pickups during the long steady? (I've been running a long time). Did a 1:31 1/2 marathon and trying to go under 3 hours for a full.
I always thought I was low maintenance, but maybe I'm not....

______________________________________________________

For some people yes. Probably not for you. You REALLY need to focus on mileage at this point. Not speed. A marathon on only 4 runs a week is going to be tough. I'd recommend dumping ALL of your workouts for at least the next 6 weeks and focus solely on increasing the length and frequency of your runs. I have a friend who is likely to run low 2:30. He's been running 70 to 120 miles per week for almost 15 years. He only started adding in workouts in the last 3 months of his schedule. He spent the first 5 months of his schedule just getting used to high mileage and long runs at over 20 miles.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [RoughOnStuff] [ In reply to ]
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What February marathon are you doing? I'm doing Hyannis :)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Hyannis as well!
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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My long run right now is 20-23 miles once per week. My tempo is usually about 11 miles, couple miles warm up and cool down in there. So, my weekly mileage is between 40-50 miles. I need to get it above 70?
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I couldn’t agree with you more, simplicity and freedom to me is one of the biggest appeals to running. You don't need to do any complex calculations or spend hours thinking about how to best optimize your running plans.

I saw the biggest improvements in my running during last winter. I would just go out and run, some days long, some days hard, some days easy, some days a combination. I would let my body decide what pace it wanted to do and I would concentrate on enjoying the crisp winter mornings and the crunch of fresh snow beneath my feet. I ran more just because I was enjoying the escape that running provides from everyday life.

---------------------------
http://www.nunnsontherun.com
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP, very good post - something many have known about for some time but can not seem to grasp, myself included. I had the intentions of running a LSD yesterday of slightly over 1 hour. I would notice my heart rate picking up to my normal levels and I would back off, no matter what I did my heart rate would rise to my "normal" level. at the end my heart rate averaged 157, where normally I am between 160 and 165 depending on intensity.

how low should my heart rate be on a LSD (understanding everyone has different numbers) if my max is 180 and anaerobic threshold "feels" around 170 to 172?

Thanks for your insight.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [trekhilo] [ In reply to ]
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110 to 145 or about 60-80% of max.

At the end of a longer run it may creep up higher.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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