"should I just keep quiet because i find boredom and injury comes with single sport focus?"

No, I'm not trying to come across in that manner at all. Saying you get bored and could injure yourself with a single sport focus is a lot different than stating you think biking is a benefit to finishing the marathon because it allows you to train aerobically for more than 3 hours. So again, your relative success at marathon running comes from your marathon training, not your biking. If you don't think this is true, then so be it.

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

Although my contribution may be OT
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_threaded;post=1009666;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;
Seems like a contribution on how people could be a tad more productive rather than simply saying "You're wrong"

As far as adding to the discussion, I'm not nearly the calibur of coach or runner that BarryP is so anything I could probably add would not be to the level of his experiance,no? Or do you suggest I should post something potentially incorrect because you need someone else to tell they're wrong?

~Matt

"if not to stalk my posts?"

And typically I ignore your post as they are typically the same "cryptic" response or a simple "You're wrong"

Occasionally I'll read your posts as they are part of a branch. The occasional jab is just fun, for me anyway. If anyone here deserves it you do.

~Matt

"your relative success at marathon running comes from your marathon training, not your biking"

To use the report posted by Paulo - the "relative success" comes from improvements in "overall fitness" which is greater than the same running volume without supplementary workouts in other sports.

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www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

"To use the report posted by Paulo - the "relative success" comes from improvements in "overall fitness" which is greater than the same running volume without supplementary workouts in other sports."

The additional cross training may help "overall fitness".

The report just says that the benefit, to running, will not be as much as spending that additional time actually running.

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Note to self: increase training load.

Hey Dev,

It's funny you should mention that. About 6 years ago I was playing ice hockey....you've heard of ice hockey, right?......twice a week and then roller blading twice a week. I decided to go out and play a game of full court basketball. I felt so good that I played for a good 2 to 3 hours. MY CALVES HURT SO BAD the next day!!!!

Armstrong USED to be a good runner and, with proper training he can be a good runner again.....but it takes years of running to realize ones potential in the marathon no matter how strong their heart and lungs are.

The pounding IS part of it, as are the specific neuro-muscular responses. But there is also a biological component. The running muscles need to be trained. Their are adaptations that occur specificly to those muscles that do not occur during other activities. Just like the other day when I went canoeing. I had a strong heart, but man was my back sore the next day. My rowing muscles were weak and they pooped out quick!

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I think he said earlier that he can't possibly spend the additional time running without blowing up and getting injured/burned out (can't remember the exact wording). Sure specificity rules, and running is the most specific to running, but the bottom line is biking is more specific to running than sitting on the couch :-) Consider bike training as part of building the overall fitness cake...layer 1 of the cake, then layer 2 of the cake is more running, layer three is replace some of that biking with even more running...then we get into the icing that we were talking about in the first 10 posts on this thread.

...personally, I'm trying to fill in some of the icing that goes in between layers...not the real icing, but the glue icing that holds the cake together and gives me just enough leg speed to react to the odd surge of the competition, pick things up on downhills without braking, and generally be light on the feet...the "grey zone 6.5 to 8 min mile speed" (using the word loosely as 8 min miles is shuffling for many :-) ) , that is good enough for the purposes of most of us age group dudes.

Barry, and I bet if Armstrong tried hard enough, he could quickly get back to "faking it though" a 16 min 5k, but you can't fake a marathon...which is why I prefer races that are 13 miles or less. Any longer and you have to have the "real goods" and do the "real training"....cross training can only take you so far. Look at Steve Larsen last year...he beat Reid and deBoom at half Vineman, "faking it though a solid half marathon"....but then when it came to a full marathon at Kona, he was nowhere to be seen!

For this reason, I really liked Mitch Gold's Ironman run approach. He basically said, that if you want to RUN a marathon off a 2.4mile swim and 112 mile bike, then you have to do marathoner training while doing swim and bike training. It sounds really simple, but the bottom line is that it is insanely tough to do 60 mile weeks while riding and biking. But people are surprised that they can't run a good marathon in an Ironman, when they aren't trained for a marathon...bottom line, no free lunch when it comes to running that far, but if your body can't take it or is not ready, then cross training is the next best option!

t2k,

Unfortunately there isn't a whole lot of literature out there for the injury prone runner. No matter how hard we try, you'll never see one of us reach elite status.

I've had some theories of my own, but even just recently had a long talk with a poediatrist who was a former track star / injury prone runner as well and he had some different opinions.

In the end, your best option for running is to run and do lots of it. If you CAN't, then you will have to live for what is the next best thing. For running it is sessions of aqua jogging. Further down the chain you get into cycling.

So, yes, cycling will help your marathon if it is between doing that and doing nothing. ie 40 mpw running and 150 mpw cycling is better than just 40 mpw running. There is SOME cross over.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Barry, due to the lack of literature, I believe it is nice to hear what works for the so called over injured/underprepared, who have taken different approaches to success. As we know, the variables in any study cannot be fully controlled, so a discussion of real world success might also be valuable. I took 55 min off my marathon PB when I started biking and running vs running alone. Now I can take this stat and make it say what I want.

One could say that all the bike miles were responsible for taking me from 3:43 to 2:48, on the other hand one could say that it was a decade of cumulative run miles from 18 to 28 years old. The reality is a combination of both. All that biking allowed me to run for 10 years without an major injuries cause I could mix up my fitness regime and maintain a good muscle balance, something that pure runners often cannot sustain over a decade of pounding :-) Specificity is great in short bouts, but for most of us, we are simply not built to sustain the month in month out run volumes required to run an even half decent marathon :-(

*sigh*....If only I had known this in college.

11-91 to 1-92 shin splints

6-92 to 8-93 tendonitis in both knees

8-94 to 2-95 swelling under knee cap

11-95 to end of college ITBS

Combine that with a bout of mono and a bad case of pnumonia. Lets just say I'm amazed of what I DID do while I was there.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Barry from 1980-1985 when was only running in high school and college, I battled shin splints, achilles issues and back issues...then when I started biking I was able to actually run pain free (relatively...).

Another rule of thumb....run a minimum of 3x40 min per week all year...as slow as you want. This is the best path to maintain a continuous solid running base, from which it is easy to ramp into a "real program". In the past 25 years there was only one 4 month block where I stopped running (zero running) and I really regretted it. It felt like I had never run before when I resume.

Best way to get in shape is to never get out of shape :-)...that's what my friend Rick Hellard says...he just ran 2:36 this spring and went 8:41 at an Ironman at age 40!

Hey thanks Barry, you've given me a wealth of information to work from.

I knew I wasn't running enough , but 80 m/pw for 5k ? Who knew!!!!

I shouldn't be suprised though, I read about it on letsrun all the time.

Thanx again...

Ronnie

To tell you the truth I don't bike or swim much either. I do S 7000 / B 75m / R 15m per week , give or take. Off season I do it slow. In season I do mile reps on a dirt trail w/ 3 min rest ( 5:20 pace ) On the bike I'll ride a 2 1/2 hr ride w/ lots of elevation and 1x20 min 53x12 on a flat road.

Another ride would be a 12m tempo Z 3 - 5 build , and another hill ride w/ short steep climbs where I go anaerobic.

I'm generaly a masher on the flats , I like 85 rpms. I love to climb and do uphill TT's. I weigh 123 pounds.

I seem to do pretty good at short course on this lite schedule , but always get dropped on the run by good runners. I've won one race in my life and have more second , thirds and fourths than I can count LOL.

Hopefully with BarryP's advice I'll learn how to run ???

>>run a minimum of 3x40 min per week all year

I went from not being able to run 800 yds w/o pain, to finally being able to run for 1 hour pain-free.

I got a bad URI that limited me to 2 hrs running one week, and NO running the next.

Sure enough, this week I'm back to having pain 20 minutes into the run.

Run durability - use it or lose it - QUICK.

You should be able to carry on a conversation, you sholdn't actually carry on a conversation.

Styrrell

In honor of this thread I did my 10.5ish mile run this morning 7 minutes slower than I did it this past Saturday. Now I just need to do this 5 or 6 times per week for the next three months and I'll be ready to train for a spring marathon.

Dude, your post is such bullshit, I don't know where to begin........it is so wrong on so many levels that I don't know where to start. I'm going to go out and enjoy a cigarette. I'll be in touch.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Too bad for you nobody took your bet...

Do you think you could train for 10 hours a week? For the duration of a run phase, I might aim for a maximum of something like:

2 x 1hr swim focusing on good technique and long reps at Oly race pace (200s-750s)

2 x 1hr ride as 15 mins warm-up, 30-40mins subFT (roughly 2hr race effort), 5-15mins cool-down

This would keep you ticking over and generate some fairly useful systemic fitness, and then you can spend the rest of your training time (six hours) building up a running block where you only run LSD pace. Paulo gave me some good advice a while ago suggesting a build up where you run 2 days in succession, then take a day off, then repeat the 2 days running but increase the duration of the runs by 5 mins until you hit 60mins running. So, assuming you start a 15 mins, which I would, your run programme would go:

15, 15, Day off, 20, 20, Day off, 25, 25 ,Day off, 30, 30, Day off, 35, 35, Day off, 40, 40, Day off, 45, 45, Day off etc

As a final note I would suggest you schedule swims not rides on your non-running days, always get your run done before your ride when you're doing both on the same day. So, a week might be:

M = Run am

T = Run am, Ride pm

W = Swim

Th = Run am

F = Run am, Ride pm

S = Swim

Su = Run am

and so on...

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Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing

Looks like a good way not to get injured too , thanks....

Ronnieg,

I can't remember what your original question was, but it seems like you are concerned about injury. To get better at running, your first goal is to push up to, but not beyond, a level that your body can withstand. 6 hours of running may be too much. But maybe you can build to 4 hours. What fade showed is a very realistic program for a lot of people. Whether or not you are one of them is something you have to figure out for yourself.

You can always mix in sessions of aqua jogging to increase your overall run volume. I'm doing mine today at lunch!

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Ah yes, aquajogging the not-so-dirty little secret of many great runners.

aquajogging can do useful things when used in marathon preps, too....

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Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing

I only wish I believed in it 15 years ago.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Swimming in the pool is boring enough.

I'd rather aquabike if I was forced to running in place in the pool.