Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like

May 25, 22 10:44

Post #1 of 118 Views: 1353

Scary to think what this country would be like if there weren't deterrents in place such as school police, building security protocols, mental health protocols, and the education and encouragement of students to report things they see and hear.

Imagine what's deterred and stopped because of these protocols already in place .... and then it's really scary to think that the above isnt anywhere near enough to stop this chaos.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [gall1972] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 11:22

Post #2 of 118 Views: 1295

As long as we can buy an AR-15 and body armor there are no practical deterrents to keep people safe. We can build 1000+ bed mental health facilities on every street corner, it won't make any difference.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [LorenzoP] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 11:35

Post #3 of 118 Views: 1266

LorenzoP wrote:

it won't make any difference.

Disagree. Per the OP's point, there are documented cases where interventions *probably* prevent violence. (Impossible to say for sure, but sure seems likely).

It may not make sufficient or acceptable difference. But I'd have a hard time saying "no difference."

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [gall1972] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 11:38

Post #4 of 118 Views: 1260

My kids imagine what it would be like every time they have to do a drill at school. My daughter has anxiety at school, and this year she has a nice teacher who gave her a special code word in case my daughter gets locked outside a classroom during a drill.

There’s a wide ripple effect from the horrific trauma of each school shooting incident.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [LorenzoP] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 11:42

Post #5 of 118 Views: 1253

LorenzoP wrote:

As long as we can buy an AR-15 and body armor there are no practical deterrents to keep people safe. We can build 1000+ bed mental health facilities on every street corner, it won't make any difference.

This is absolute horseshit. Defending a hardened building instead of security theater would solve this problem.

No guns or off-duty rent seeking cops required.

E

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 11:48

Post #6 of 118 Views: 1240

ericMPro wrote:

LorenzoP wrote:

As long as we can buy an AR-15 and body armor there are no practical deterrents to keep people safe. We can build 1000+ bed mental health facilities on every street corner, it won't make any difference.

This is absolute horseshit. Defending a hardened building instead of security theater would solve this problem.

No guns or off-duty rent seeking cops required.

E

We can barely afford the school buildings we have now . . . the only physical deterrment would be several fortified machine guns per building.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [trail] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 11:51

Post #7 of 118 Views: 1230

trail wrote:

LorenzoP wrote:

it won't make any difference.

Disagree. Per the OP's point, there are documented cases where interventions *probably* prevent violence. (Impossible to say for sure, but sure seems likely).

It may not make sufficient or acceptable difference. But I'd have a hard time saying "no difference."

Yes, I'm a tad over the top with the 'any difference' - - - but I just watched the press conference with Gov. Abbott and I was getting more and more pissed off at the pointing to mental health, and LA\Chicago instead of their own efforts to make it easier for people to get guns in Tx.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [LorenzoP] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 11:51

Post #8 of 118 Views: 1229

LorenzoP wrote:

ericMPro wrote:

LorenzoP wrote:

As long as we can buy an AR-15 and body armor there are no practical deterrents to keep people safe. We can build 1000+ bed mental health facilities on every street corner, it won't make any difference.

This is absolute horseshit. Defending a hardened building instead of security theater would solve this problem.

No guns or off-duty rent seeking cops required.

E

We can barely afford the school buildings we have now . . . the only physical deterrment would be several fortified machine guns per building.

That’s not how defense works.

Why are you in the nothing can get better camp.

E

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 11:52

Post #9 of 118 Views: 1227

Unbelievable, really fortified buildings, arming teachers. You gotta be fricking kidding.

The issue is guns like AR15's should not be available to the public. Stop trying to put a band-aid on a bullet wound. We need to stop the sell of these type of assault weapons.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [LorenzoP] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 11:53

Post #10 of 118 Views: 1222

LorenzoP wrote:

trail wrote:

LorenzoP wrote:

it won't make any difference.

Disagree. Per the OP's point, there are documented cases where interventions *probably* prevent violence. (Impossible to say for sure, but sure seems likely).

It may not make sufficient or acceptable difference. But I'd have a hard time saying "no difference."

Yes, I'm a tad over the top with the 'any difference' - - - but I just watched the press conference with Gov. Abbott and I was getting more and more pissed off at the pointing to mental health, and LA\Chicago instead of their own efforts to make it easier for people to get guns in Tx.

You know Abbott is a dishonest ghoul that doesn’t want to fix this because what mental health programs is he actually talking about? How is he getting people free mental health support?

He doesn’t care about the children murdered here. He cares about the support of the people that want this to happen.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [chaparral] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 11:57

Post #11 of 118 Views: 1203

Abbott is a freaking moron along with cruz and the worst might be dan patrick. Those three are a disgrace.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SWEDE63] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 12:09

Post #12 of 118 Views: 1176

SWEDE63 wrote:

Unbelievable, really fortified buildings, arming teachers. You gotta be fricking kidding.

The issue is guns like AR15's should not be available to the public. Stop trying to put a band-aid on a bullet wound. We need to stop the sell of these type of assault weapons.

No. You have no idea what you’re talking about. You’ve been brainwashed by movies and security theater.

Besides, if we have budget issues we can divert $$ from cops who make $200k per year but don’t do their jobs to people who will in the places they’re needed.

Defense is not security. A well defended building would be visually indistinguishable from a normal one unless you knew what you were looking for.

Defense is dynamic, security is static. Defense is prescriptive, security is descriptive. Defense is active, security is passive.

Trade dollars for space and space for time measured in units called “child-deaths” on a scale from zero kids to all the kids. How many “child-deaths” of “space-time” do we need to accomplish the mission “defend” and what $$ or other resources do we need to make it happen? You wouldn’t need to defend indefinitely, you’d just need to defend for 18-20 “child-deaths” worth of time (based on recent massacres) until LEO arrives on scene.

Gunfire defectors, auto locking doors, panic buttons, cameras, defense in depth with redundant and bulletproof entry points and internal segregation points, comms for teachers in mutually supporting classrooms, procedures for sweeping up straggler kids in hallways. Most of these resources are already on site just not arranged in the right spatial or sequential arrangement.

Bonus, you wouldn’t have to traumatize kids with cortisol drills every quarter.

That said, in 10 years an elementary kid will turn 18 and know the system from the inside out.

E

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [CallMeMaybe] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 12:16

Post #13 of 118 Views: 1169

CallMeMaybe wrote:

My kids imagine what it would be like every time they have to do a drill at school. My daughter has anxiety at school, and this year she has a nice teacher who gave her a special code word in case my daughter gets locked outside a classroom during a drill.

There’s a wide ripple effect from the horrific trauma of each school shooting incident.

I feel for you (and your kids).

Last night I told my wife how sorry a state this country is in when I'm actually relieved my kids are out of school. Too much to worry about. 15-20 years ago we only worried that they'd get hurt during recess.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SWEDE63] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 12:17

Post #14 of 118 Views: 1166

SWEDE63 wrote:

Abbott is a freaking moron along with cruz and the worst might be dan patrick. Those three are a disgrace.

They are not morons. They know what they are doing.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 12:18

Post #15 of 118 Views: 1160

You are delusional and again doing nothing to solve the problem.

As someone already said, we can't afford new schools as it it and you want to fortify them. You should quit before you further embarrass yourself.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [gall1972] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 12:38

Post #16 of 118 Views: 1137

I don't have to imagine. I can take a plane trip to any number of countries where this kind of stuff happens only a few times in their lifetimes, not every couple of weeks.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [gall1972] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 12:41

Post #17 of 118 Views: 1130

gall1972 wrote:

Scary to think what this country would be like if there weren't deterrents in place such as school police, building security protocols, mental health protocols, and the education and encouragement of students to report things they see and hear.

Imagine what's deterred and stopped because of these protocols already in place .... and then it's really scary to think that the above isnt anywhere near enough to stop this chaos.

I don't have to imagine what it would be like without those things as when I was growing up, we had none of those things. In all of the terrible sadness and anger because of this event, I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of why these things are happening now and not in the 70's and 80's.

When I was growing up, as with many of you, guns were everywhere and very accessible to kids, teenagers, adutls etc. I grew up in Texas and gun laws were less restrictive then than they are now. We would dove hunt after HS and I parked my truck in school parking lot with shotguns and ammo at the ready all dove season. As did most of the guys in my class. Not once was I concerned about a school shooter and we had some pretty weird kids at our school. I was right not to be concerned because these things didn't happen.

Why is that? What has changed between then ( guns everywhere) and now ( guns everywhere) that makes psychotic animals want to shoot up schools? Surely it is multi-factorial but we need to study this as much as anything. I suggest kids these days are largely seeing a darker world then we ( 80's kids) grew up in. Although we had the cold war, we also had optimism about growing up, getting a job, getting married, having a family and living the american dream. The American dream was a wife, kids, boat on the weekend and vacation at the beach each summer. Maybe golf each sunday afternoon with the boys.

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things. They also see the juxtoposition of the very rich ( tic toc stars, athletes and celebrities) and see that as the american dream. If they can't achieve that status, then what is it all for. Add to that mountains of debt to go to college for the chance to even get a job paying you enough to live in an average apartment and you can see why some are depressed. Throw in two long years of COVID fear and shutdowns and it could seem hopeless to a person without a strong parental influence at home. Just my thesis but who knows.

I do agree the gun laws should be changed to outlaw AR15 ( no reason to have one),
2) waiting period for any guns ( at least a week)
3) universal background checks ( I think we already have this)
, 4) no one under the age of 21 can buy a gun,
5) outlaw all semi-autos ( even pistols)

I still don't think this would prevent a lot of these situations but hopefully a start.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SWEDE63] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 12:45

Post #18 of 118 Views: 1124

SWEDE63 wrote:

You are delusional and again doing nothing to solve the problem.

As someone already said, we can't afford new schools as it it and you want to fortify them. You should quit before you further embarrass yourself.

Where did I say "fortify"? I'm saying *defend*.

Open your mind for a minute and hear what I'm saying.

Schools can be simply and invisibly "hardened", mostly by switching constructs from "security" to "defense". Security is a construct, with abstractions, and ever increasing concentric circles, whereas defense is operative or systemic and trades a resource for a requirement, like space for time or $$ for "child-deaths". If you're a fan of sports you'll understand this from how teams use advanced statistics to invisibly improve their teams trading $$ for undervalued players and overvalued players for $$ in an attempt to buy "win-shares".

Also understand we're talking about an issue that we are agreed on 80% but 80% of us don't want to do anything that would be construed as a "win" for the other side, like fixing procedures at schools or doing simple background checks and waiting periods and age restrictions.

E

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 12:51

Post #19 of 118 Views: 1113

This is something else I don't understand about this shooting but will wait for the facts to come out. I know in my kids schools, the doors are locked all day long....no exception. If you want in, there is one way in and its through the office and you have to be buzzed in. There is no way this could have happened at my kids schools unless

1) he shot his way in through the glass or

2) the office accicentally buzzed him in.

All the other doors are locked, made of steel etc.

I suppose someone could shoot their way in through the window and there we are, but there is no way a person is just walking into my kids school with a gun. Not possible.

Add an armed secutiry guard ( one of my kids schools has an armed cop there all day everyday) and I feel pretty good about it. ( Not sure every district in Texas has an armed cop there all day)

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 12:53

Post #20 of 118 Views: 1110

On this we can agree, neither side wants to let it seem like the other side won. Being from Kansas I was never a Bob Dole fan, however back when he was in office there was at least some civility within our government.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 13:11

Post #21 of 118 Views: 1091

SDG wrote:

This is something else I don't understand about this shooting but will wait for the facts to come out. I know in my kids schools, the doors are locked all day long....no exception. If you want in, there is one way in and its through the office and you have to be buzzed in. There is no way this could have happened at my kids schools unless

1) he shot his way in through the glass or

2) the office accidentally buzzed him in.

All the other doors are locked, made of steel etc.

I suppose someone could shoot their way in through the window and there we are, but there is no way a person is just walking into my kids school with a gun. Not possible.

Add an armed security guard ( one of my kids schools has an armed cop there all day everyday) and I feel pretty good about it. ( Not sure every district in Texas has an armed cop there all day)

After 10 years of security theater active shooter drills, the school and the police have some explaining to do. County and State as well with respect to their accreditation system, Contracting Officer contract management, and cortisol dealing panic sellers of "active shooter" theater training by ex LEOs mainlining "security" instead of "defense".

My points are a) screaming "nothing can be done to fix it" is stupid, b) screaming "do something!" no matter the cost is stupid, c) we suck at protecting our kids, and should probably do something different than the same thing again and again and expecting a different result, and d) we don't even need to think outside of the box, the first step is holding our government and governmental employees accountable with regard to time, money, intellectual output, and sworn duties and responsibilities.

E

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 13:22

Post #22 of 118 Views: 1078

SDG wrote:

This is something else I don't understand about this shooting but will wait for the facts to come out. I know in my kids schools, the doors are locked all day long....no exception. If you want in, there is one way in and its through the office and you have to be buzzed in. There is no way this could have happened at my kids schools unless

1) he shot his way in through the glass or

2) the office accicentally buzzed him in.

All the other doors are locked, made of steel etc.

I suppose someone could shoot their way in through the window and there we are, but there is no way a person is just walking into my kids school with a gun. Not possible.

Add an armed secutiry guard ( one of my kids schools has an armed cop there all day everyday) and I feel pretty good about it. ( Not sure every district in Texas has an armed cop there all day)

Sounds like your kids go to school in a prison.

All the schools I went to growing up were open campuses. Big windows. When you step outside you feel the sun in your face. I rode my bike to school by myself. Then I think about what kids have today and wonder if they really know what freedom is.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 13:28

Post #23 of 118 Views: 1070

Don't be silly, freedom is owning as many guns as you want.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 13:38

Post #24 of 118 Views: 1052

FishyJoe wrote:

SDG wrote:

This is something else I don't understand about this shooting but will wait for the facts to come out. I know in my kids schools, the doors are locked all day long....no exception. If you want in, there is one way in and its through the office and you have to be buzzed in. There is no way this could have happened at my kids schools unless

1) he shot his way in through the glass or

2) the office accicentally buzzed him in.

All the other doors are locked, made of steel etc.

I suppose someone could shoot their way in through the window and there we are, but there is no way a person is just walking into my kids school with a gun. Not possible.

Add an armed secutiry guard ( one of my kids schools has an armed cop there all day everyday) and I feel pretty good about it. ( Not sure every district in Texas has an armed cop there all day)

Sounds like your kids go to school in a prison.

All the schools I went to growing up were open campuses. Big windows. When you step outside you feel the sun in your face. I rode my bike to school by myself. Then I think about what kids have today and wonder if they really know what freedom is.

No actually it's quite nice. It's a neighborhood school and many are taken by their parents in golf carts, walk on the sidewalks or ride their bikes. They leave their bikes at the front of the school and no one uses a bike lock, just lays their bike down. Skateboards, scooters everywhere and nothing locked up. Teachers are all great, energetic and the class size is small and well funded. Each kid has a ipad. They have recess twice a day and parents often come eat in the cafeteria and bring kids lunch. My kid loves the chick fil a I bring him all the time and time we eat up there.

You can have all of this and have the school locked down during the day with each door outside locked. My kids probably don't even know the doors are locked. Each class has a large window to the outside and they can daydream watching the squirrels all they want.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 13:52

Post #25 of 118 Views: 1030

SDG wrote:

gall1972 wrote:

Scary to think what this country would be like if there weren't deterrents in place such as school police, building security protocols, mental health protocols, and the education and encouragement of students to report things they see and hear.

Imagine what's deterred and stopped because of these protocols already in place .... and then it's really scary to think that the above isnt anywhere near enough to stop this chaos.

I don't have to imagine what it would be like without those things as when I was growing up, we had none of those things. In all of the terrible sadness and anger because of this event, I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of why these things are happening now and not in the 70's and 80's.

When I was growing up, as with many of you, guns were everywhere and very accessible to kids, teenagers, adutls etc. I grew up in Texas and gun laws were less restrictive then than they are now. We would dove hunt after HS and I parked my truck in school parking lot with shotguns and ammo at the ready all dove season. As did most of the guys in my class. Not once was I concerned about a school shooter and we had some pretty weird kids at our school. I was right not to be concerned because these things didn't happen.

Why is that? What has changed between then ( guns everywhere) and now ( guns everywhere) that makes psychotic animals want to shoot up schools? Surely it is multi-factorial but we need to study this as much as anything. I suggest kids these days are largely seeing a darker world then we ( 80's kids) grew up in. Although we had the cold war, we also had optimism about growing up, getting a job, getting married, having a family and living the american dream. The American dream was a wife, kids, boat on the weekend and vacation at the beach each summer. Maybe golf each sunday afternoon with the boys.

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things. They also see the juxtoposition of the very rich ( tic toc stars, athletes and celebrities) and see that as the american dream. If they can't achieve that status, then what is it all for. Add to that mountains of debt to go to college for the chance to even get a job paying you enough to live in an average apartment and you can see why some are depressed. Throw in two long years of COVID fear and shutdowns and it could seem hopeless to a person without a strong parental influence at home. Just my thesis but who knows.

I do agree the gun laws should be changed to outlaw AR15 ( no reason to have one),
2) waiting period for any guns ( at least a week)
3) universal background checks ( I think we already have this)
, 4) no one under the age of 21 can buy a gun,
5) outlaw all semi-autos ( even pistols)

I still don't think this would prevent a lot of these situations but hopefully a start.

This not entirely correct. Texas gun laws are far less restrictive now than 7 years ago.

1. In 2021 the need for a conceal carry permit was eliminated. Prior to that you needed to take a class/practical application for a license.

2. In 2016 you could for the first time open, sorry I mean douche, carry in Texas. At the time douche carrying required a permit.

Suffer Well.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 13:58

Post #26 of 118 Views: 692

SDG wrote:

FishyJoe wrote:

SDG wrote:

This is something else I don't understand about this shooting but will wait for the facts to come out. I know in my kids schools, the doors are locked all day long....no exception. If you want in, there is one way in and its through the office and you have to be buzzed in. There is no way this could have happened at my kids schools unless

1) he shot his way in through the glass or

2) the office accicentally buzzed him in.

All the other doors are locked, made of steel etc.

I suppose someone could shoot their way in through the window and there we are, but there is no way a person is just walking into my kids school with a gun. Not possible.

Add an armed secutiry guard ( one of my kids schools has an armed cop there all day everyday) and I feel pretty good about it. ( Not sure every district in Texas has an armed cop there all day)

Sounds like your kids go to school in a prison.

All the schools I went to growing up were open campuses. Big windows. When you step outside you feel the sun in your face. I rode my bike to school by myself. Then I think about what kids have today and wonder if they really know what freedom is.

No actually it's quite nice. It's a neighborhood school and many are taken by their parents in golf carts, walk on the sidewalks or ride their bikes. They leave their bikes at the front of the school and no one uses a bike lock, just lays their bike down. Skateboards, scooters everywhere and nothing locked up. Teachers are all great, energetic and the class size is small and well funded. Each kid has a ipad. They have recess twice a day and parents often come eat in the cafeteria and bring kids lunch. My kid loves the chick fil a I bring him all the time and time we eat up there.

You can have all of this and have the school locked down during the day with each door outside locked. My kids probably don't even know the doors are locked. Each class has a large window to the outside and they can daydream watching the squirrels all they want.

Same thing with my kids' schools in Wyoming. I'm really surprised that this isn't SOP everywhere.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [jmh] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 13:58

Post #27 of 118 Views: 692

jmh wrote:

SDG wrote:

gall1972 wrote:

Scary to think what this country would be like if there weren't deterrents in place such as school police, building security protocols, mental health protocols, and the education and encouragement of students to report things they see and hear.

Imagine what's deterred and stopped because of these protocols already in place .... and then it's really scary to think that the above isnt anywhere near enough to stop this chaos.

I don't have to imagine what it would be like without those things as when I was growing up, we had none of those things. In all of the terrible sadness and anger because of this event, I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of why these things are happening now and not in the 70's and 80's.

When I was growing up, as with many of you, guns were everywhere and very accessible to kids, teenagers, adutls etc. I grew up in Texas and gun laws were less restrictive then than they are now. We would dove hunt after HS and I parked my truck in school parking lot with shotguns and ammo at the ready all dove season. As did most of the guys in my class. Not once was I concerned about a school shooter and we had some pretty weird kids at our school. I was right not to be concerned because these things didn't happen.

Why is that? What has changed between then ( guns everywhere) and now ( guns everywhere) that makes psychotic animals want to shoot up schools? Surely it is multi-factorial but we need to study this as much as anything. I suggest kids these days are largely seeing a darker world then we ( 80's kids) grew up in. Although we had the cold war, we also had optimism about growing up, getting a job, getting married, having a family and living the american dream. The American dream was a wife, kids, boat on the weekend and vacation at the beach each summer. Maybe golf each sunday afternoon with the boys.

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things. They also see the juxtoposition of the very rich ( tic toc stars, athletes and celebrities) and see that as the american dream. If they can't achieve that status, then what is it all for. Add to that mountains of debt to go to college for the chance to even get a job paying you enough to live in an average apartment and you can see why some are depressed. Throw in two long years of COVID fear and shutdowns and it could seem hopeless to a person without a strong parental influence at home. Just my thesis but who knows.

I do agree the gun laws should be changed to outlaw AR15 ( no reason to have one),
2) waiting period for any guns ( at least a week)
3) universal background checks ( I think we already have this)
, 4) no one under the age of 21 can buy a gun,
5) outlaw all semi-autos ( even pistols)

I still don't think this would prevent a lot of these situations but hopefully a start.

This not entirely correct. Texas gun laws are far less restrictive now than 7 years ago.

1. In 2021 the need for a conceal carry permit was eliminated. Prior to that you needed to take a class/practical application for a license.

2. In 2016 you could for the first time open, sorry I mean douche, carry in Texas. At the time douche carrying required a permit.

Fair enough but I don't think open carry and concealed carry (i agree they are dumb) are relevant when it comes to why teenage guys are turning into psychotic animals and killing kids. They could get guns in the 70's and 80s just as easy. Most everyone I knew had a dad or grandpa with tons of guns in closets, gun cabinets or laying around the house. Not a one was ever used to kill someone.

I suppose if the argument is these things are happending because its easier to walk down the street and get to a school while open carrying, then OK. But I don't think people are seeing these animals on the way to the school and saying ( nothing to see here because open carry is legal) and going about their way. If I saw a teenager walking down my street ( I live right next to a school) with an AR 15 you can bet your ass 911 is getting called. I imagine I am not unique.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:06

Post #28 of 118 Views: 689

ericMPro wrote:

You wouldn’t need to defend indefinitely, you’d just need to defend for 18-20 “child-deaths” worth of time (based on recent massacres) until LEO arrives on scene.

Gunfire defectors, auto locking doors, panic buttons, cameras, defense in depth with redundant and bulletproof entry points and internal segregation points, comms for teachers in mutually supporting classrooms, procedures for sweeping up straggler kids in hallways. Most of these resources are already on site just not arranged in the right spatial or sequential arrangement.

E

It’s un fucking believable that anyone would think this is the right solution - for schools, FFS - to shootings.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:08

Post #29 of 118 Views: 681

SDG wrote:

jmh wrote:

SDG wrote:

gall1972 wrote:

Scary to think what this country would be like if there weren't deterrents in place such as school police, building security protocols, mental health protocols, and the education and encouragement of students to report things they see and hear.

Imagine what's deterred and stopped because of these protocols already in place .... and then it's really scary to think that the above isnt anywhere near enough to stop this chaos.

I don't have to imagine what it would be like without those things as when I was growing up, we had none of those things. In all of the terrible sadness and anger because of this event, I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of why these things are happening now and not in the 70's and 80's.

When I was growing up, as with many of you, guns were everywhere and very accessible to kids, teenagers, adutls etc. I grew up in Texas and gun laws were less restrictive then than they are now. We would dove hunt after HS and I parked my truck in school parking lot with shotguns and ammo at the ready all dove season. As did most of the guys in my class. Not once was I concerned about a school shooter and we had some pretty weird kids at our school. I was right not to be concerned because these things didn't happen.

Why is that? What has changed between then ( guns everywhere) and now ( guns everywhere) that makes psychotic animals want to shoot up schools? Surely it is multi-factorial but we need to study this as much as anything. I suggest kids these days are largely seeing a darker world then we ( 80's kids) grew up in. Although we had the cold war, we also had optimism about growing up, getting a job, getting married, having a family and living the american dream. The American dream was a wife, kids, boat on the weekend and vacation at the beach each summer. Maybe golf each sunday afternoon with the boys.

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things. They also see the juxtoposition of the very rich ( tic toc stars, athletes and celebrities) and see that as the american dream. If they can't achieve that status, then what is it all for. Add to that mountains of debt to go to college for the chance to even get a job paying you enough to live in an average apartment and you can see why some are depressed. Throw in two long years of COVID fear and shutdowns and it could seem hopeless to a person without a strong parental influence at home. Just my thesis but who knows.

I do agree the gun laws should be changed to outlaw AR15 ( no reason to have one),
2) waiting period for any guns ( at least a week)
3) universal background checks ( I think we already have this)
, 4) no one under the age of 21 can buy a gun,
5) outlaw all semi-autos ( even pistols)

I still don't think this would prevent a lot of these situations but hopefully a start.

This not entirely correct. Texas gun laws are far less restrictive now than 7 years ago.

1. In 2021 the need for a conceal carry permit was eliminated. Prior to that you needed to take a class/practical application for a license.

2. In 2016 you could for the first time open, sorry I mean douche, carry in Texas. At the time douche carrying required a permit.

Fair enough but I don't think open carry and concealed carry (i agree they are dumb) are relevant when it comes to why teenage guys are turning into psychotic animals and killing kids. They could get guns in the 70's and 80s just as easy. Most everyone I knew had a dad or grandpa with tons of guns in closets, gun cabinets or laying around the house. Not a one was ever used to kill someone.

I suppose if the argument is these things are happending because its easier to walk down the street and get to a school while open carrying, then OK. But I don't think people are seeing these animals on the way to the school and saying ( nothing to see here because open carry is legal) and going about their way. If I saw a teenager walking down my street ( I live right next to a school) with an AR 15 you can bet your ass 911 is getting called. I imagine I am not unique.

Why would you call the police on someone doing something totally legal?

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [chaparral] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:10

Post #30 of 118 Views: 680

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

jmh wrote:

SDG wrote:

gall1972 wrote:

Scary to think what this country would be like if there weren't deterrents in place such as school police, building security protocols, mental health protocols, and the education and encouragement of students to report things they see and hear.

Imagine what's deterred and stopped because of these protocols already in place .... and then it's really scary to think that the above isnt anywhere near enough to stop this chaos.

I don't have to imagine what it would be like without those things as when I was growing up, we had none of those things. In all of the terrible sadness and anger because of this event, I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of why these things are happening now and not in the 70's and 80's.

When I was growing up, as with many of you, guns were everywhere and very accessible to kids, teenagers, adutls etc. I grew up in Texas and gun laws were less restrictive then than they are now. We would dove hunt after HS and I parked my truck in school parking lot with shotguns and ammo at the ready all dove season. As did most of the guys in my class. Not once was I concerned about a school shooter and we had some pretty weird kids at our school. I was right not to be concerned because these things didn't happen.

Why is that? What has changed between then ( guns everywhere) and now ( guns everywhere) that makes psychotic animals want to shoot up schools? Surely it is multi-factorial but we need to study this as much as anything. I suggest kids these days are largely seeing a darker world then we ( 80's kids) grew up in. Although we had the cold war, we also had optimism about growing up, getting a job, getting married, having a family and living the american dream. The American dream was a wife, kids, boat on the weekend and vacation at the beach each summer. Maybe golf each sunday afternoon with the boys.

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things. They also see the juxtoposition of the very rich ( tic toc stars, athletes and celebrities) and see that as the american dream. If they can't achieve that status, then what is it all for. Add to that mountains of debt to go to college for the chance to even get a job paying you enough to live in an average apartment and you can see why some are depressed. Throw in two long years of COVID fear and shutdowns and it could seem hopeless to a person without a strong parental influence at home. Just my thesis but who knows.

I do agree the gun laws should be changed to outlaw AR15 ( no reason to have one),
2) waiting period for any guns ( at least a week)
3) universal background checks ( I think we already have this)
, 4) no one under the age of 21 can buy a gun,
5) outlaw all semi-autos ( even pistols)

I still don't think this would prevent a lot of these situations but hopefully a start.

This not entirely correct. Texas gun laws are far less restrictive now than 7 years ago.

1. In 2021 the need for a conceal carry permit was eliminated. Prior to that you needed to take a class/practical application for a license.

2. In 2016 you could for the first time open, sorry I mean douche, carry in Texas. At the time douche carrying required a permit.

Fair enough but I don't think open carry and concealed carry (i agree they are dumb) are relevant when it comes to why teenage guys are turning into psychotic animals and killing kids. They could get guns in the 70's and 80s just as easy. Most everyone I knew had a dad or grandpa with tons of guns in closets, gun cabinets or laying around the house. Not a one was ever used to kill someone.

I suppose if the argument is these things are happending because its easier to walk down the street and get to a school while open carrying, then OK. But I don't think people are seeing these animals on the way to the school and saying ( nothing to see here because open carry is legal) and going about their way. If I saw a teenager walking down my street ( I live right next to a school) with an AR 15 you can bet your ass 911 is getting called. I imagine I am not unique.

Why would you call the police on someone doing something totally legal?

Just a hunch. We have a strong neighborhood watch, a lot of stay at home moms always on the lookout and a very safe neighborhood. We see something, we say something. Works well for our little utopia.

I wouldn't like a teenager walking around the school with an AR15. You do you and I will do me.

Last edited by: SDG: May 25, 22 14:12

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:11

Post #31 of 118 Views: 672

SDG wrote:

Fair enough but I don't think open carry and concealed carry (i agree they are dumb) are relevant when it comes to why teenage guys are turning into psychotic animals and killing kids. They could get guns in the 70's and 80s just as easy. Most everyone I knew had a dad or grandpa with tons of guns in closets, gun cabinets or laying around the house. Not a one was ever used to kill someone.

Any idea on what's different about guns in the 70's and 80's that were easy to get and were in every house you knew and those available today?

Suffer Well.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:13

Post #32 of 118 Views: 666

SDG wrote:

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

jmh wrote:

SDG wrote:

gall1972 wrote:

Scary to think what this country would be like if there weren't deterrents in place such as school police, building security protocols, mental health protocols, and the education and encouragement of students to report things they see and hear.

Imagine what's deterred and stopped because of these protocols already in place .... and then it's really scary to think that the above isnt anywhere near enough to stop this chaos.

I don't have to imagine what it would be like without those things as when I was growing up, we had none of those things. In all of the terrible sadness and anger because of this event, I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of why these things are happening now and not in the 70's and 80's.

When I was growing up, as with many of you, guns were everywhere and very accessible to kids, teenagers, adutls etc. I grew up in Texas and gun laws were less restrictive then than they are now. We would dove hunt after HS and I parked my truck in school parking lot with shotguns and ammo at the ready all dove season. As did most of the guys in my class. Not once was I concerned about a school shooter and we had some pretty weird kids at our school. I was right not to be concerned because these things didn't happen.

Why is that? What has changed between then ( guns everywhere) and now ( guns everywhere) that makes psychotic animals want to shoot up schools? Surely it is multi-factorial but we need to study this as much as anything. I suggest kids these days are largely seeing a darker world then we ( 80's kids) grew up in. Although we had the cold war, we also had optimism about growing up, getting a job, getting married, having a family and living the american dream. The American dream was a wife, kids, boat on the weekend and vacation at the beach each summer. Maybe golf each sunday afternoon with the boys.

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things. They also see the juxtoposition of the very rich ( tic toc stars, athletes and celebrities) and see that as the american dream. If they can't achieve that status, then what is it all for. Add to that mountains of debt to go to college for the chance to even get a job paying you enough to live in an average apartment and you can see why some are depressed. Throw in two long years of COVID fear and shutdowns and it could seem hopeless to a person without a strong parental influence at home. Just my thesis but who knows.

I do agree the gun laws should be changed to outlaw AR15 ( no reason to have one),
2) waiting period for any guns ( at least a week)
3) universal background checks ( I think we already have this)
, 4) no one under the age of 21 can buy a gun,
5) outlaw all semi-autos ( even pistols)

I still don't think this would prevent a lot of these situations but hopefully a start.

This not entirely correct. Texas gun laws are far less restrictive now than 7 years ago.

1. In 2021 the need for a conceal carry permit was eliminated. Prior to that you needed to take a class/practical application for a license.

2. In 2016 you could for the first time open, sorry I mean douche, carry in Texas. At the time douche carrying required a permit.

Fair enough but I don't think open carry and concealed carry (i agree they are dumb) are relevant when it comes to why teenage guys are turning into psychotic animals and killing kids. They could get guns in the 70's and 80s just as easy. Most everyone I knew had a dad or grandpa with tons of guns in closets, gun cabinets or laying around the house. Not a one was ever used to kill someone.

I suppose if the argument is these things are happending because its easier to walk down the street and get to a school while open carrying, then OK. But I don't think people are seeing these animals on the way to the school and saying ( nothing to see here because open carry is legal) and going about their way. If I saw a teenager walking down my street ( I live right next to a school) with an AR 15 you can bet your ass 911 is getting called. I imagine I am not unique.

Why would you call the police on someone doing something totally legal?

Just a hunch. We have a strong neighborhood watch, a lot of stay at home moms always on the lookout and a very safe neighborhood. We see something, we say something. Works well for our little utopia.

I wouldn't like a teenager walking around the school with an AR15. You do you and I will do me.

And what is the cop going to do exactly?

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [jmh] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:14

Post #33 of 118 Views: 666

jmh wrote:

SDG wrote:

Fair enough but I don't think open carry and concealed carry (i agree they are dumb) are relevant when it comes to why teenage guys are turning into psychotic animals and killing kids. They could get guns in the 70's and 80s just as easy. Most everyone I knew had a dad or grandpa with tons of guns in closets, gun cabinets or laying around the house. Not a one was ever used to kill someone.

Any idea on what's different about guns in the 70's and 80's that were easy to get and were in every house you knew and those available today?

Not much. Lots of AR15s, lots of assault rifles and HK sniper rifles, tons of ammo, lots of semi-auto pistols, even a few full autos at the house where my friends dad was in the FBI. We used to take mac 10's his dad had and shoot them in the back pasture.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [chaparral] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:18

Post #34 of 118 Views: 660

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

jmh wrote:

SDG wrote:

gall1972 wrote:

Scary to think what this country would be like if there weren't deterrents in place such as school police, building security protocols, mental health protocols, and the education and encouragement of students to report things they see and hear.

Imagine what's deterred and stopped because of these protocols already in place .... and then it's really scary to think that the above isnt anywhere near enough to stop this chaos.

I don't have to imagine what it would be like without those things as when I was growing up, we had none of those things. In all of the terrible sadness and anger because of this event, I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of why these things are happening now and not in the 70's and 80's.

When I was growing up, as with many of you, guns were everywhere and very accessible to kids, teenagers, adutls etc. I grew up in Texas and gun laws were less restrictive then than they are now. We would dove hunt after HS and I parked my truck in school parking lot with shotguns and ammo at the ready all dove season. As did most of the guys in my class. Not once was I concerned about a school shooter and we had some pretty weird kids at our school. I was right not to be concerned because these things didn't happen.

Why is that? What has changed between then ( guns everywhere) and now ( guns everywhere) that makes psychotic animals want to shoot up schools? Surely it is multi-factorial but we need to study this as much as anything. I suggest kids these days are largely seeing a darker world then we ( 80's kids) grew up in. Although we had the cold war, we also had optimism about growing up, getting a job, getting married, having a family and living the american dream. The American dream was a wife, kids, boat on the weekend and vacation at the beach each summer. Maybe golf each sunday afternoon with the boys.

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things. They also see the juxtoposition of the very rich ( tic toc stars, athletes and celebrities) and see that as the american dream. If they can't achieve that status, then what is it all for. Add to that mountains of debt to go to college for the chance to even get a job paying you enough to live in an average apartment and you can see why some are depressed. Throw in two long years of COVID fear and shutdowns and it could seem hopeless to a person without a strong parental influence at home. Just my thesis but who knows.

I do agree the gun laws should be changed to outlaw AR15 ( no reason to have one),
2) waiting period for any guns ( at least a week)
3) universal background checks ( I think we already have this)
, 4) no one under the age of 21 can buy a gun,
5) outlaw all semi-autos ( even pistols)

I still don't think this would prevent a lot of these situations but hopefully a start.

This not entirely correct. Texas gun laws are far less restrictive now than 7 years ago.

1. In 2021 the need for a conceal carry permit was eliminated. Prior to that you needed to take a class/practical application for a license.

2. In 2016 you could for the first time open, sorry I mean douche, carry in Texas. At the time douche carrying required a permit.

Fair enough but I don't think open carry and concealed carry (i agree they are dumb) are relevant when it comes to why teenage guys are turning into psychotic animals and killing kids. They could get guns in the 70's and 80s just as easy. Most everyone I knew had a dad or grandpa with tons of guns in closets, gun cabinets or laying around the house. Not a one was ever used to kill someone.

I suppose if the argument is these things are happending because its easier to walk down the street and get to a school while open carrying, then OK. But I don't think people are seeing these animals on the way to the school and saying ( nothing to see here because open carry is legal) and going about their way. If I saw a teenager walking down my street ( I live right next to a school) with an AR 15 you can bet your ass 911 is getting called. I imagine I am not unique.

Why would you call the police on someone doing something totally legal?

Just a hunch. We have a strong neighborhood watch, a lot of stay at home moms always on the lookout and a very safe neighborhood. We see something, we say something. Works well for our little utopia.

I wouldn't like a teenager walking around the school with an AR15. You do you and I will do me.

And what is the cop going to do exactly?

Well, lets see. If the psychotic kid with the AR15 attempts to walk into the school, the COP could shoot him dead as he lies. In Texas, he would probably be awarded a medal after an investigation. He could also stop him and question him. Take your open carry shit elsewhere. The cop would not be reprimanded for stopping the kid.

We don't watch teenagers walk into schools with AR's and do nothing. Not a good plan.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:21

Post #35 of 118 Views: 654

SDG wrote:

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

jmh wrote:

SDG wrote:

gall1972 wrote:

Scary to think what this country would be like if there weren't deterrents in place such as school police, building security protocols, mental health protocols, and the education and encouragement of students to report things they see and hear.

Imagine what's deterred and stopped because of these protocols already in place .... and then it's really scary to think that the above isnt anywhere near enough to stop this chaos.

I don't have to imagine what it would be like without those things as when I was growing up, we had none of those things. In all of the terrible sadness and anger because of this event, I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of why these things are happening now and not in the 70's and 80's.

When I was growing up, as with many of you, guns were everywhere and very accessible to kids, teenagers, adutls etc. I grew up in Texas and gun laws were less restrictive then than they are now. We would dove hunt after HS and I parked my truck in school parking lot with shotguns and ammo at the ready all dove season. As did most of the guys in my class. Not once was I concerned about a school shooter and we had some pretty weird kids at our school. I was right not to be concerned because these things didn't happen.

Why is that? What has changed between then ( guns everywhere) and now ( guns everywhere) that makes psychotic animals want to shoot up schools? Surely it is multi-factorial but we need to study this as much as anything. I suggest kids these days are largely seeing a darker world then we ( 80's kids) grew up in. Although we had the cold war, we also had optimism about growing up, getting a job, getting married, having a family and living the american dream. The American dream was a wife, kids, boat on the weekend and vacation at the beach each summer. Maybe golf each sunday afternoon with the boys.

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things. They also see the juxtoposition of the very rich ( tic toc stars, athletes and celebrities) and see that as the american dream. If they can't achieve that status, then what is it all for. Add to that mountains of debt to go to college for the chance to even get a job paying you enough to live in an average apartment and you can see why some are depressed. Throw in two long years of COVID fear and shutdowns and it could seem hopeless to a person without a strong parental influence at home. Just my thesis but who knows.

I do agree the gun laws should be changed to outlaw AR15 ( no reason to have one),
2) waiting period for any guns ( at least a week)
3) universal background checks ( I think we already have this)
, 4) no one under the age of 21 can buy a gun,
5) outlaw all semi-autos ( even pistols)

I still don't think this would prevent a lot of these situations but hopefully a start.

This not entirely correct. Texas gun laws are far less restrictive now than 7 years ago.

1. In 2021 the need for a conceal carry permit was eliminated. Prior to that you needed to take a class/practical application for a license.

2. In 2016 you could for the first time open, sorry I mean douche, carry in Texas. At the time douche carrying required a permit.

Fair enough but I don't think open carry and concealed carry (i agree they are dumb) are relevant when it comes to why teenage guys are turning into psychotic animals and killing kids. They could get guns in the 70's and 80s just as easy. Most everyone I knew had a dad or grandpa with tons of guns in closets, gun cabinets or laying around the house. Not a one was ever used to kill someone.

I suppose if the argument is these things are happending because its easier to walk down the street and get to a school while open carrying, then OK. But I don't think people are seeing these animals on the way to the school and saying ( nothing to see here because open carry is legal) and going about their way. If I saw a teenager walking down my street ( I live right next to a school) with an AR 15 you can bet your ass 911 is getting called. I imagine I am not unique.

Why would you call the police on someone doing something totally legal?

Just a hunch. We have a strong neighborhood watch, a lot of stay at home moms always on the lookout and a very safe neighborhood. We see something, we say something. Works well for our little utopia.

I wouldn't like a teenager walking around the school with an AR15. You do you and I will do me.

And what is the cop going to do exactly?

Well, lets see. If the psychotic kid with the AR15 attempts to walk into the school, the COP could shoot him dead as he lies. In Texas, he would probably be awarded a medal after an investigation. He could also stop him and question him. Take your open carry shit elsewhere. The cop would not be reprimanded for stopping the kid.

We don't watch teenagers walk into schools with AR's and do nothing. Not a good plan.

So you’re saying people shouldn’t be allowed to open carry? What about concealed carry? Or maybe there’s an even better way…

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:23

Post #36 of 118 Views: 653

Kay Serrar wrote:

SDG wrote:

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

jmh wrote:

SDG wrote:

gall1972 wrote:

Scary to think what this country would be like if there weren't deterrents in place such as school police, building security protocols, mental health protocols, and the education and encouragement of students to report things they see and hear.

Imagine what's deterred and stopped because of these protocols already in place .... and then it's really scary to think that the above isnt anywhere near enough to stop this chaos.

I don't have to imagine what it would be like without those things as when I was growing up, we had none of those things. In all of the terrible sadness and anger because of this event, I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of why these things are happening now and not in the 70's and 80's.

When I was growing up, as with many of you, guns were everywhere and very accessible to kids, teenagers, adutls etc. I grew up in Texas and gun laws were less restrictive then than they are now. We would dove hunt after HS and I parked my truck in school parking lot with shotguns and ammo at the ready all dove season. As did most of the guys in my class. Not once was I concerned about a school shooter and we had some pretty weird kids at our school. I was right not to be concerned because these things didn't happen.

Why is that? What has changed between then ( guns everywhere) and now ( guns everywhere) that makes psychotic animals want to shoot up schools? Surely it is multi-factorial but we need to study this as much as anything. I suggest kids these days are largely seeing a darker world then we ( 80's kids) grew up in. Although we had the cold war, we also had optimism about growing up, getting a job, getting married, having a family and living the american dream. The American dream was a wife, kids, boat on the weekend and vacation at the beach each summer. Maybe golf each sunday afternoon with the boys.

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things. They also see the juxtoposition of the very rich ( tic toc stars, athletes and celebrities) and see that as the american dream. If they can't achieve that status, then what is it all for. Add to that mountains of debt to go to college for the chance to even get a job paying you enough to live in an average apartment and you can see why some are depressed. Throw in two long years of COVID fear and shutdowns and it could seem hopeless to a person without a strong parental influence at home. Just my thesis but who knows.

I do agree the gun laws should be changed to outlaw AR15 ( no reason to have one),
2) waiting period for any guns ( at least a week)
3) universal background checks ( I think we already have this)
, 4) no one under the age of 21 can buy a gun,
5) outlaw all semi-autos ( even pistols)

I still don't think this would prevent a lot of these situations but hopefully a start.

This not entirely correct. Texas gun laws are far less restrictive now than 7 years ago.

1. In 2021 the need for a conceal carry permit was eliminated. Prior to that you needed to take a class/practical application for a license.

2. In 2016 you could for the first time open, sorry I mean douche, carry in Texas. At the time douche carrying required a permit.

Fair enough but I don't think open carry and concealed carry (i agree they are dumb) are relevant when it comes to why teenage guys are turning into psychotic animals and killing kids. They could get guns in the 70's and 80s just as easy. Most everyone I knew had a dad or grandpa with tons of guns in closets, gun cabinets or laying around the house. Not a one was ever used to kill someone.

I suppose if the argument is these things are happending because its easier to walk down the street and get to a school while open carrying, then OK. But I don't think people are seeing these animals on the way to the school and saying ( nothing to see here because open carry is legal) and going about their way. If I saw a teenager walking down my street ( I live right next to a school) with an AR 15 you can bet your ass 911 is getting called. I imagine I am not unique.

Why would you call the police on someone doing something totally legal?

Just a hunch. We have a strong neighborhood watch, a lot of stay at home moms always on the lookout and a very safe neighborhood. We see something, we say something. Works well for our little utopia.

I wouldn't like a teenager walking around the school with an AR15. You do you and I will do me.

And what is the cop going to do exactly?

Well, lets see. If the psychotic kid with the AR15 attempts to walk into the school, the COP could shoot him dead as he lies. In Texas, he would probably be awarded a medal after an investigation. He could also stop him and question him. Take your open carry shit elsewhere. The cop would not be reprimanded for stopping the kid.

We don't watch teenagers walk into schools with AR's and do nothing. Not a good plan.

So you’re saying people shouldn’t be allowed to open carry? What about concealed carry? Or maybe there’s an even better way…

Yes, I am saying, as I have for years, no one should be allowed to open carry. Very stupid and dangerous.

I don't want to be in a chick fil a and have a guy sitting next to me with a pistol on his waist. If I ever say that, I would be out the door with family in tow. So far, since the law was changed, I have not seen a single person open carrying.

I suggest concealed carry is stupid as well but at least they had to have a license and take courses.

Last edited by: SDG: May 25, 22 14:24

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SWEDE63] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:24

Post #37 of 118 Views: 652

SWEDE63 wrote:

On this we can agree, neither side wants to let it seem like the other side won. Being from Kansas I was never a Bob Dole fan, however back when he was in office there was at least some civility within our government.

Please understand when I say “harden” …

a) I don’t mean with concrete and rebar I mean make it harder or more costly or more time consuming to hit the target

b) the target is the kids not the school.

c) the threat to our children is now endemic and Societal and cultural and memetic.

All in all, hire a police force that will respond sooner then the current “one full classroom of massacred kids” standard unit of measure, and hire administrators that can extend the threat surface space-time out to where the police response begins.

E

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:29

Post #38 of 118 Views: 645

ericMPro wrote:

SWEDE63 wrote:

On this we can agree, neither side wants to let it seem like the other side won. Being from Kansas I was never a Bob Dole fan, however back when he was in office there was at least some civility within our government.

Please understand when I say “harden” …

a) I don’t mean with concrete and rebar I mean make it harder or more costly or more time consuming to hit the target

b) the target is the kids not the school.

c) the threat to our children is now endemic and Societal and cultural and memetic.

All in all, hire a police force that will respond sooner then the current “one full classroom of massacred kids” standard unit of measure, and hire administrators that can extend the threat surface space-time out to where the police response begins.

E

I can't tell if you are being serious with your over the top suggestions or just trying to make a point by being so over the top.

You have schools becoming akin to SEAL TEAM SIX locking down a safe house in Kandahar. While I agree we need to increase cops on site, lock doors, have bullet proof glass put in and a few other things, not sure we can do all you require.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:32

Post #39 of 118 Views: 642

I think Eric speaks in a semi different language but from what I can piece together, it's sort of like taking mostly the same lego blocks you currently have, but arranging them differently in order to have a much better final product.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:35

Post #40 of 118 Views: 641

I don't have any answers, I don't know what to say other than it is complicated.

At what point do we just come out and say are all these school children, teachers, shoppers at stores, people in churches or in federal buildings just collateral damage for the concept of our freedom and right to own firearms? And then we have to ask at what point is it worth it or not?

I am getting sort of tired of people and politicians praying for Texas, or Sandy Hook, or Buffalo, or California, or wherever the next mass shooting occurs and then going on with their lives business as usual. Gun ownership and control is an absolute American problem and so far we haven't learned a damn thing from all these killings. Where do we start to change when prolly half the country does not believe we need to change or we need to but are unwilling? Until then the collateral damage continues.

It is complicated. But business as usual not addressing the problem is addressing the problem in a do nothing way.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:42

Post #41 of 118 Views: 635

SDG wrote:

jmh wrote:

SDG wrote:

Fair enough but I don't think open carry and concealed carry (i agree they are dumb) are relevant when it comes to why teenage guys are turning into psychotic animals and killing kids. They could get guns in the 70's and 80s just as easy. Most everyone I knew had a dad or grandpa with tons of guns in closets, gun cabinets or laying around the house. Not a one was ever used to kill someone.

Any idea on what's different about guns in the 70's and 80's that were easy to get and were in every house you knew and those available today?

Not much. Lots of AR15s, lots of assault rifles and HK sniper rifles, tons of ammo, lots of semi-auto pistols, even a few full autos at the house where my friends dad was in the FBI. We used to take mac 10's his dad had and shoot them in the back pasture.

You father, grandfather and friend's dad's were very different than the norm of having a .308 bolt action hunting rifle, a shotguns, or a revolver that were far, far more common in most households in that era. An AR-15 in the house was much more rare in that era than they are today.

I can't find from the 70's and 80's on AR-15 sales for the 70's and 80's but in the mid 2000's there were about 1/10 of the AR-15 sold in the US than in 2021. This number was much smaller in the early 2000's. One could surmise that there were a fraction of the 2007 number in the 70's and 80's given the trend.

The AWB ended (lapsed really) in 2004.

Suffer Well.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:46

Post #42 of 118 Views: 629

ericMPro wrote:

LorenzoP wrote:

As long as we can buy an AR-15 and body armor there are no practical deterrents to keep people safe. We can build 1000+ bed mental health facilities on every street corner, it won't make any difference.

This is absolute horseshit. Defending a hardened building instead of security theater would solve this problem.

No guns or off-duty rent seeking cops required.

E

I’m sorry, but I would rather imagine a future where our kids do not have to go to school in an armed encampment.

drn92

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:47

Post #43 of 118 Views: 629

SDG wrote:

Kay Serrar wrote:

SDG wrote:

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

jmh wrote:

SDG wrote:

gall1972 wrote:

Scary to think what this country would be like if there weren't deterrents in place such as school police, building security protocols, mental health protocols, and the education and encouragement of students to report things they see and hear.

Imagine what's deterred and stopped because of these protocols already in place .... and then it's really scary to think that the above isnt anywhere near enough to stop this chaos.

I don't have to imagine what it would be like without those things as when I was growing up, we had none of those things. In all of the terrible sadness and anger because of this event, I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of why these things are happening now and not in the 70's and 80's.

When I was growing up, as with many of you, guns were everywhere and very accessible to kids, teenagers, adutls etc. I grew up in Texas and gun laws were less restrictive then than they are now. We would dove hunt after HS and I parked my truck in school parking lot with shotguns and ammo at the ready all dove season. As did most of the guys in my class. Not once was I concerned about a school shooter and we had some pretty weird kids at our school. I was right not to be concerned because these things didn't happen.

Why is that? What has changed between then ( guns everywhere) and now ( guns everywhere) that makes psychotic animals want to shoot up schools? Surely it is multi-factorial but we need to study this as much as anything. I suggest kids these days are largely seeing a darker world then we ( 80's kids) grew up in. Although we had the cold war, we also had optimism about growing up, getting a job, getting married, having a family and living the american dream. The American dream was a wife, kids, boat on the weekend and vacation at the beach each summer. Maybe golf each sunday afternoon with the boys.

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things. They also see the juxtoposition of the very rich ( tic toc stars, athletes and celebrities) and see that as the american dream. If they can't achieve that status, then what is it all for. Add to that mountains of debt to go to college for the chance to even get a job paying you enough to live in an average apartment and you can see why some are depressed. Throw in two long years of COVID fear and shutdowns and it could seem hopeless to a person without a strong parental influence at home. Just my thesis but who knows.

I do agree the gun laws should be changed to outlaw AR15 ( no reason to have one),
2) waiting period for any guns ( at least a week)
3) universal background checks ( I think we already have this)
, 4) no one under the age of 21 can buy a gun,
5) outlaw all semi-autos ( even pistols)

I still don't think this would prevent a lot of these situations but hopefully a start.

This not entirely correct. Texas gun laws are far less restrictive now than 7 years ago.

1. In 2021 the need for a conceal carry permit was eliminated. Prior to that you needed to take a class/practical application for a license.

2. In 2016 you could for the first time open, sorry I mean douche, carry in Texas. At the time douche carrying required a permit.

Fair enough but I don't think open carry and concealed carry (i agree they are dumb) are relevant when it comes to why teenage guys are turning into psychotic animals and killing kids. They could get guns in the 70's and 80s just as easy. Most everyone I knew had a dad or grandpa with tons of guns in closets, gun cabinets or laying around the house. Not a one was ever used to kill someone.

I suppose if the argument is these things are happending because its easier to walk down the street and get to a school while open carrying, then OK. But I don't think people are seeing these animals on the way to the school and saying ( nothing to see here because open carry is legal) and going about their way. If I saw a teenager walking down my street ( I live right next to a school) with an AR 15 you can bet your ass 911 is getting called. I imagine I am not unique.

Why would you call the police on someone doing something totally legal?

Just a hunch. We have a strong neighborhood watch, a lot of stay at home moms always on the lookout and a very safe neighborhood. We see something, we say something. Works well for our little utopia.

I wouldn't like a teenager walking around the school with an AR15. You do you and I will do me.

And what is the cop going to do exactly?

Well, lets see. If the psychotic kid with the AR15 attempts to walk into the school, the COP could shoot him dead as he lies. In Texas, he would probably be awarded a medal after an investigation. He could also stop him and question him. Take your open carry shit elsewhere. The cop would not be reprimanded for stopping the kid.

We don't watch teenagers walk into schools with AR's and do nothing. Not a good plan.

So you’re saying people shouldn’t be allowed to open carry? What about concealed carry? Or maybe there’s an even better way…

Yes, I am saying, as I have for years, no one should be allowed to open carry. Very stupid and dangerous.

I don't want to be in a chick fil a and have a guy sitting next to me with a pistol on his waist. If I ever say that, I would be out the door with family in tow. So far, since the law was changed, I have not seen a single person open carrying.

I suggest concealed carry is stupid as well but at least they had to have a license and take courses.

Seems like we agree then. The “No carry” way is best. Best you get on to your local representative and let them know how you feel.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:51

Post #44 of 118 Views: 620

Kay Serrar wrote:

SDG wrote:

Kay Serrar wrote:

SDG wrote:

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

jmh wrote:

SDG wrote:

gall1972 wrote:

Scary to think what this country would be like if there weren't deterrents in place such as school police, building security protocols, mental health protocols, and the education and encouragement of students to report things they see and hear.

Imagine what's deterred and stopped because of these protocols already in place .... and then it's really scary to think that the above isnt anywhere near enough to stop this chaos.

I don't have to imagine what it would be like without those things as when I was growing up, we had none of those things. In all of the terrible sadness and anger because of this event, I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of why these things are happening now and not in the 70's and 80's.

When I was growing up, as with many of you, guns were everywhere and very accessible to kids, teenagers, adutls etc. I grew up in Texas and gun laws were less restrictive then than they are now. We would dove hunt after HS and I parked my truck in school parking lot with shotguns and ammo at the ready all dove season. As did most of the guys in my class. Not once was I concerned about a school shooter and we had some pretty weird kids at our school. I was right not to be concerned because these things didn't happen.

Why is that? What has changed between then ( guns everywhere) and now ( guns everywhere) that makes psychotic animals want to shoot up schools? Surely it is multi-factorial but we need to study this as much as anything. I suggest kids these days are largely seeing a darker world then we ( 80's kids) grew up in. Although we had the cold war, we also had optimism about growing up, getting a job, getting married, having a family and living the american dream. The American dream was a wife, kids, boat on the weekend and vacation at the beach each summer. Maybe golf each sunday afternoon with the boys.

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things. They also see the juxtoposition of the very rich ( tic toc stars, athletes and celebrities) and see that as the american dream. If they can't achieve that status, then what is it all for. Add to that mountains of debt to go to college for the chance to even get a job paying you enough to live in an average apartment and you can see why some are depressed. Throw in two long years of COVID fear and shutdowns and it could seem hopeless to a person without a strong parental influence at home. Just my thesis but who knows.

I do agree the gun laws should be changed to outlaw AR15 ( no reason to have one),
2) waiting period for any guns ( at least a week)
3) universal background checks ( I think we already have this)
, 4) no one under the age of 21 can buy a gun,
5) outlaw all semi-autos ( even pistols)

I still don't think this would prevent a lot of these situations but hopefully a start.

This not entirely correct. Texas gun laws are far less restrictive now than 7 years ago.

1. In 2021 the need for a conceal carry permit was eliminated. Prior to that you needed to take a class/practical application for a license.

2. In 2016 you could for the first time open, sorry I mean douche, carry in Texas. At the time douche carrying required a permit.

Fair enough but I don't think open carry and concealed carry (i agree they are dumb) are relevant when it comes to why teenage guys are turning into psychotic animals and killing kids. They could get guns in the 70's and 80s just as easy. Most everyone I knew had a dad or grandpa with tons of guns in closets, gun cabinets or laying around the house. Not a one was ever used to kill someone.

I suppose if the argument is these things are happending because its easier to walk down the street and get to a school while open carrying, then OK. But I don't think people are seeing these animals on the way to the school and saying ( nothing to see here because open carry is legal) and going about their way. If I saw a teenager walking down my street ( I live right next to a school) with an AR 15 you can bet your ass 911 is getting called. I imagine I am not unique.

Why would you call the police on someone doing something totally legal?

Just a hunch. We have a strong neighborhood watch, a lot of stay at home moms always on the lookout and a very safe neighborhood. We see something, we say something. Works well for our little utopia.

I wouldn't like a teenager walking around the school with an AR15. You do you and I will do me.

And what is the cop going to do exactly?

Well, lets see. If the psychotic kid with the AR15 attempts to walk into the school, the COP could shoot him dead as he lies. In Texas, he would probably be awarded a medal after an investigation. He could also stop him and question him. Take your open carry shit elsewhere. The cop would not be reprimanded for stopping the kid.

We don't watch teenagers walk into schools with AR's and do nothing. Not a good plan.

So you’re saying people shouldn’t be allowed to open carry? What about concealed carry? Or maybe there’s an even better way…

Yes, I am saying, as I have for years, no one should be allowed to open carry. Very stupid and dangerous.

I don't want to be in a chick fil a and have a guy sitting next to me with a pistol on his waist. If I ever say that, I would be out the door with family in tow. So far, since the law was changed, I have not seen a single person open carrying.

I suggest concealed carry is stupid as well but at least they had to have a license and take courses.

Seems like we agree then. The “No carry” way is best. Best you get on to your local representative and let them know how you feel.

Do you see open carry as the problem in these school shootings? While I think it is dump and panders to the ranger ricks out there, I don't think open carry folks are doing these things or its existence is making it harder for cops to root out the psychos who are doing these things.

I see buying guns online and getting them at 18 to be much bigger problem? I do and will suggest these changes should be made.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:51

Post #45 of 118 Views: 620

SDG wrote:

Kay Serrar wrote:

SDG wrote:

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

jmh wrote:

SDG wrote:

gall1972 wrote:

Scary to think what this country would be like if there weren't deterrents in place such as school police, building security protocols, mental health protocols, and the education and encouragement of students to report things they see and hear.

Imagine what's deterred and stopped because of these protocols already in place .... and then it's really scary to think that the above isnt anywhere near enough to stop this chaos.

I don't have to imagine what it would be like without those things as when I was growing up, we had none of those things. In all of the terrible sadness and anger because of this event, I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of why these things are happening now and not in the 70's and 80's.

When I was growing up, as with many of you, guns were everywhere and very accessible to kids, teenagers, adutls etc. I grew up in Texas and gun laws were less restrictive then than they are now. We would dove hunt after HS and I parked my truck in school parking lot with shotguns and ammo at the ready all dove season. As did most of the guys in my class. Not once was I concerned about a school shooter and we had some pretty weird kids at our school. I was right not to be concerned because these things didn't happen.

Why is that? What has changed between then ( guns everywhere) and now ( guns everywhere) that makes psychotic animals want to shoot up schools? Surely it is multi-factorial but we need to study this as much as anything. I suggest kids these days are largely seeing a darker world then we ( 80's kids) grew up in. Although we had the cold war, we also had optimism about growing up, getting a job, getting married, having a family and living the american dream. The American dream was a wife, kids, boat on the weekend and vacation at the beach each summer. Maybe golf each sunday afternoon with the boys.

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things. They also see the juxtoposition of the very rich ( tic toc stars, athletes and celebrities) and see that as the american dream. If they can't achieve that status, then what is it all for. Add to that mountains of debt to go to college for the chance to even get a job paying you enough to live in an average apartment and you can see why some are depressed. Throw in two long years of COVID fear and shutdowns and it could seem hopeless to a person without a strong parental influence at home. Just my thesis but who knows.

I do agree the gun laws should be changed to outlaw AR15 ( no reason to have one),
2) waiting period for any guns ( at least a week)
3) universal background checks ( I think we already have this)
, 4) no one under the age of 21 can buy a gun,
5) outlaw all semi-autos ( even pistols)

I still don't think this would prevent a lot of these situations but hopefully a start.

This not entirely correct. Texas gun laws are far less restrictive now than 7 years ago.

1. In 2021 the need for a conceal carry permit was eliminated. Prior to that you needed to take a class/practical application for a license.

2. In 2016 you could for the first time open, sorry I mean douche, carry in Texas. At the time douche carrying required a permit.

Fair enough but I don't think open carry and concealed carry (i agree they are dumb) are relevant when it comes to why teenage guys are turning into psychotic animals and killing kids. They could get guns in the 70's and 80s just as easy. Most everyone I knew had a dad or grandpa with tons of guns in closets, gun cabinets or laying around the house. Not a one was ever used to kill someone.

I suppose if the argument is these things are happending because its easier to walk down the street and get to a school while open carrying, then OK. But I don't think people are seeing these animals on the way to the school and saying ( nothing to see here because open carry is legal) and going about their way. If I saw a teenager walking down my street ( I live right next to a school) with an AR 15 you can bet your ass 911 is getting called. I imagine I am not unique.

Why would you call the police on someone doing something totally legal?

Just a hunch. We have a strong neighborhood watch, a lot of stay at home moms always on the lookout and a very safe neighborhood. We see something, we say something. Works well for our little utopia.

I wouldn't like a teenager walking around the school with an AR15. You do you and I will do me.

And what is the cop going to do exactly?

Well, lets see. If the psychotic kid with the AR15 attempts to walk into the school, the COP could shoot him dead as he lies. In Texas, he would probably be awarded a medal after an investigation. He could also stop him and question him. Take your open carry shit elsewhere. The cop would not be reprimanded for stopping the kid.

We don't watch teenagers walk into schools with AR's and do nothing. Not a good plan.

So you’re saying people shouldn’t be allowed to open carry? What about concealed carry? Or maybe there’s an even better way…

Yes, I am saying, as I have for years, no one should be allowed to open carry. Very stupid and dangerous.

I don't want to be in a chick fil a and have a guy sitting next to me with a pistol on his waist. If I ever say that, I would be out the door with family in tow. So far, since the law was changed, I have not seen a single person open carrying.

I suggest concealed carry is stupid as well but at least they had to have a license and take courses.

Wrong again. In Texas, where you and I live, as of September of last year, there is no need for a license or taking a course to conceal carry.

Damn son, you are ignorant on this topic.

Suffer Well.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [jmh] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:53

Post #46 of 118 Views: 618

jmh wrote:

SDG wrote:

Kay Serrar wrote:

SDG wrote:

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

jmh wrote:

SDG wrote:

gall1972 wrote:

Scary to think what this country would be like if there weren't deterrents in place such as school police, building security protocols, mental health protocols, and the education and encouragement of students to report things they see and hear.

Imagine what's deterred and stopped because of these protocols already in place .... and then it's really scary to think that the above isnt anywhere near enough to stop this chaos.

I don't have to imagine what it would be like without those things as when I was growing up, we had none of those things. In all of the terrible sadness and anger because of this event, I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of why these things are happening now and not in the 70's and 80's.

When I was growing up, as with many of you, guns were everywhere and very accessible to kids, teenagers, adutls etc. I grew up in Texas and gun laws were less restrictive then than they are now. We would dove hunt after HS and I parked my truck in school parking lot with shotguns and ammo at the ready all dove season. As did most of the guys in my class. Not once was I concerned about a school shooter and we had some pretty weird kids at our school. I was right not to be concerned because these things didn't happen.

Why is that? What has changed between then ( guns everywhere) and now ( guns everywhere) that makes psychotic animals want to shoot up schools? Surely it is multi-factorial but we need to study this as much as anything. I suggest kids these days are largely seeing a darker world then we ( 80's kids) grew up in. Although we had the cold war, we also had optimism about growing up, getting a job, getting married, having a family and living the american dream. The American dream was a wife, kids, boat on the weekend and vacation at the beach each summer. Maybe golf each sunday afternoon with the boys.

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things. They also see the juxtoposition of the very rich ( tic toc stars, athletes and celebrities) and see that as the american dream. If they can't achieve that status, then what is it all for. Add to that mountains of debt to go to college for the chance to even get a job paying you enough to live in an average apartment and you can see why some are depressed. Throw in two long years of COVID fear and shutdowns and it could seem hopeless to a person without a strong parental influence at home. Just my thesis but who knows.

I do agree the gun laws should be changed to outlaw AR15 ( no reason to have one),
2) waiting period for any guns ( at least a week)
3) universal background checks ( I think we already have this)
, 4) no one under the age of 21 can buy a gun,
5) outlaw all semi-autos ( even pistols)

I still don't think this would prevent a lot of these situations but hopefully a start.

This not entirely correct. Texas gun laws are far less restrictive now than 7 years ago.

1. In 2021 the need for a conceal carry permit was eliminated. Prior to that you needed to take a class/practical application for a license.

2. In 2016 you could for the first time open, sorry I mean douche, carry in Texas. At the time douche carrying required a permit.

Fair enough but I don't think open carry and concealed carry (i agree they are dumb) are relevant when it comes to why teenage guys are turning into psychotic animals and killing kids. They could get guns in the 70's and 80s just as easy. Most everyone I knew had a dad or grandpa with tons of guns in closets, gun cabinets or laying around the house. Not a one was ever used to kill someone.

I suppose if the argument is these things are happending because its easier to walk down the street and get to a school while open carrying, then OK. But I don't think people are seeing these animals on the way to the school and saying ( nothing to see here because open carry is legal) and going about their way. If I saw a teenager walking down my street ( I live right next to a school) with an AR 15 you can bet your ass 911 is getting called. I imagine I am not unique.

Why would you call the police on someone doing something totally legal?

Just a hunch. We have a strong neighborhood watch, a lot of stay at home moms always on the lookout and a very safe neighborhood. We see something, we say something. Works well for our little utopia.

I wouldn't like a teenager walking around the school with an AR15. You do you and I will do me.

And what is the cop going to do exactly?

Well, lets see. If the psychotic kid with the AR15 attempts to walk into the school, the COP could shoot him dead as he lies. In Texas, he would probably be awarded a medal after an investigation. He could also stop him and question him. Take your open carry shit elsewhere. The cop would not be reprimanded for stopping the kid.

We don't watch teenagers walk into schools with AR's and do nothing. Not a good plan.

So you’re saying people shouldn’t be allowed to open carry? What about concealed carry? Or maybe there’s an even better way…

Yes, I am saying, as I have for years, no one should be allowed to open carry. Very stupid and dangerous.

I don't want to be in a chick fil a and have a guy sitting next to me with a pistol on his waist. If I ever say that, I would be out the door with family in tow. So far, since the law was changed, I have not seen a single person open carrying.

I suggest concealed carry is stupid as well but at least they had to have a license and take courses.

Wrong again. In Texas, where you and I live, as of September of last year, there is no need for a license or taking a course to conceal carry.

Damn son, you are ignorant on this topic.

Was referring to the old rule prior to open carry. ( see had to) Sure, now they can do whatever they want. I still don't see that as the issue in theses shootings but sure, that needs to change to

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 14:57

Post #47 of 118 Views: 610

SDG wrote:

No actually it's quite nice. It's a neighborhood school and many are taken by their parents in golf carts, walk on the sidewalks or ride their bikes. They leave their bikes at the front of the school and no one uses a bike lock, just lays their bike down. Skateboards, scooters everywhere and nothing locked up. Teachers are all great, energetic and the class size is small and well funded. Each kid has a ipad. They have recess twice a day and parents often come eat in the cafeteria and bring kids lunch. My kid loves the chick fil a I bring him all the time and time we eat up there.

You can have all of this and have the school locked down during the day with each door outside locked. My kids probably don't even know the doors are locked. Each class has a large window to the outside and they can daydream watching the squirrels all they want.

I live in Canada and the schools in my neighborhood have basketball courts / running tracks / soccer fields that are not fenced. How do you defend these?
Do you have a big fence around sport fields?

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 15:01

Post #48 of 118 Views: 604

SDG wrote:

Kay Serrar wrote:

SDG wrote:

Kay Serrar wrote:

SDG wrote:

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

chaparral wrote:

SDG wrote:

jmh wrote:

SDG wrote:

gall1972 wrote:

Scary to think what this country would be like if there weren't deterrents in place such as school police, building security protocols, mental health protocols, and the education and encouragement of students to report things they see and hear.

Imagine what's deterred and stopped because of these protocols already in place .... and then it's really scary to think that the above isnt anywhere near enough to stop this chaos.

I don't have to imagine what it would be like without those things as when I was growing up, we had none of those things. In all of the terrible sadness and anger because of this event, I still haven't seen anyone address the issue of why these things are happening now and not in the 70's and 80's.

When I was growing up, as with many of you, guns were everywhere and very accessible to kids, teenagers, adutls etc. I grew up in Texas and gun laws were less restrictive then than they are now. We would dove hunt after HS and I parked my truck in school parking lot with shotguns and ammo at the ready all dove season. As did most of the guys in my class. Not once was I concerned about a school shooter and we had some pretty weird kids at our school. I was right not to be concerned because these things didn't happen.

Why is that? What has changed between then ( guns everywhere) and now ( guns everywhere) that makes psychotic animals want to shoot up schools? Surely it is multi-factorial but we need to study this as much as anything. I suggest kids these days are largely seeing a darker world then we ( 80's kids) grew up in. Although we had the cold war, we also had optimism about growing up, getting a job, getting married, having a family and living the american dream. The American dream was a wife, kids, boat on the weekend and vacation at the beach each summer. Maybe golf each sunday afternoon with the boys.

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things. They also see the juxtoposition of the very rich ( tic toc stars, athletes and celebrities) and see that as the american dream. If they can't achieve that status, then what is it all for. Add to that mountains of debt to go to college for the chance to even get a job paying you enough to live in an average apartment and you can see why some are depressed. Throw in two long years of COVID fear and shutdowns and it could seem hopeless to a person without a strong parental influence at home. Just my thesis but who knows.

I do agree the gun laws should be changed to outlaw AR15 ( no reason to have one),
2) waiting period for any guns ( at least a week)
3) universal background checks ( I think we already have this)
, 4) no one under the age of 21 can buy a gun,
5) outlaw all semi-autos ( even pistols)

I still don't think this would prevent a lot of these situations but hopefully a start.

This not entirely correct. Texas gun laws are far less restrictive now than 7 years ago.

1. In 2021 the need for a conceal carry permit was eliminated. Prior to that you needed to take a class/practical application for a license.

2. In 2016 you could for the first time open, sorry I mean douche, carry in Texas. At the time douche carrying required a permit.

Fair enough but I don't think open carry and concealed carry (i agree they are dumb) are relevant when it comes to why teenage guys are turning into psychotic animals and killing kids. They could get guns in the 70's and 80s just as easy. Most everyone I knew had a dad or grandpa with tons of guns in closets, gun cabinets or laying around the house. Not a one was ever used to kill someone.

I suppose if the argument is these things are happending because its easier to walk down the street and get to a school while open carrying, then OK. But I don't think people are seeing these animals on the way to the school and saying ( nothing to see here because open carry is legal) and going about their way. If I saw a teenager walking down my street ( I live right next to a school) with an AR 15 you can bet your ass 911 is getting called. I imagine I am not unique.

Why would you call the police on someone doing something totally legal?

Just a hunch. We have a strong neighborhood watch, a lot of stay at home moms always on the lookout and a very safe neighborhood. We see something, we say something. Works well for our little utopia.

I wouldn't like a teenager walking around the school with an AR15. You do you and I will do me.

And what is the cop going to do exactly?

Well, lets see. If the psychotic kid with the AR15 attempts to walk into the school, the COP could shoot him dead as he lies. In Texas, he would probably be awarded a medal after an investigation. He could also stop him and question him. Take your open carry shit elsewhere. The cop would not be reprimanded for stopping the kid.

We don't watch teenagers walk into schools with AR's and do nothing. Not a good plan.

So you’re saying people shouldn’t be allowed to open carry? What about concealed carry? Or maybe there’s an even better way…

Yes, I am saying, as I have for years, no one should be allowed to open carry. Very stupid and dangerous.

I don't want to be in a chick fil a and have a guy sitting next to me with a pistol on his waist. If I ever say that, I would be out the door with family in tow. So far, since the law was changed, I have not seen a single person open carrying.

I suggest concealed carry is stupid as well but at least they had to have a license and take courses.

Seems like we agree then. The “No carry” way is best. Best you get on to your local representative and let them know how you feel.

Do you see open carry as the problem in these school shootings? While I think it is dump and panders to the ranger ricks out there, I don't think open carry folks are doing these things or its existence is making it harder for cops to root out the psychos who are doing these things.

I see buying guns online and getting them at 18 to be much bigger problem? I do and will suggest these changes should be made.

I would agree, but you seem not to like your states laws, so would suggest you lobby for change and vote for the side that’s in favor of sensible gun controls.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Doru] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 15:06

Post #49 of 118 Views: 600

Doru wrote:

SDG wrote:

No actually it's quite nice. It's a neighborhood school and many are taken by their parents in golf carts, walk on the sidewalks or ride their bikes. They leave their bikes at the front of the school and no one uses a bike lock, just lays their bike down. Skateboards, scooters everywhere and nothing locked up. Teachers are all great, energetic and the class size is small and well funded. Each kid has a ipad. They have recess twice a day and parents often come eat in the cafeteria and bring kids lunch. My kid loves the chick fil a I bring him all the time and time we eat up there.

You can have all of this and have the school locked down during the day with each door outside locked. My kids probably don't even know the doors are locked. Each class has a large window to the outside and they can daydream watching the squirrels all they want.

I live in Canada and the schools in my neighborhood have basketball courts / running tracks / soccer fields that are not fenced. How do you defend these?
Do you have a big fence around sport fields?

We have all of those as well. No problems so far and kids play outside everyday. I don't recall ever seeing the situation where any of these cases happened outdoors at the school. I guess if they ever had that, the kids would run into the school as fast as they could.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 15:07

Post #50 of 118 Views: 598

ericMPro wrote:

SWEDE63 wrote:

On this we can agree, neither side wants to let it seem like the other side won. Being from Kansas I was never a Bob Dole fan, however back when he was in office there was at least some civility within our government.

Please understand when I say “harden” …

a) I don’t mean with concrete and rebar I mean make it harder or more costly or more time consuming to hit the target

b) the target is the kids not the school.

c) the threat to our children is now endemic and Societal and cultural and memetic.

All in all, hire a police force that will respond sooner then the current “one full classroom of massacred kids” standard unit of measure, and hire administrators that can extend the threat surface space-time out to where the police response begins.

E

How about you stop talking in riddles and stop proposing unworkable (from a cost perspective) solutions to the problem.

And making schools a bit more “hardened” as targets, or getting cops to arrive a few seconds sooner, are not going to solve the problem. The problem is the quantity of guns in our society and the ease with which anyone can buy one. This is not rocket science.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 15:10

Post #51 of 118 Views: 473

SDG wrote:

Why is that? What has changed between then ( guns everywhere) and now ( guns everywhere) that makes psychotic animals want to shoot up schools? Surely it is multi-factorial but we need to study this as much as anything. I suggest kids these days are largely seeing a darker world then we ( 80's kids) grew up in. Although we had the cold war, we also had optimism about growing up, getting a job, getting married, having a family and living the american dream. The American dream was a wife, kids, boat on the weekend and vacation at the beach each summer. Maybe golf each sunday afternoon with the boys

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things.

This is a fascinating take.

Are today's young people troubled because:

1) of actual fear of things actually getting worse for today's young people?

Or

2) because of fear of things that appear to be getting worse (from fear porn, etc.), but actually in reality things are just dandy?

I ask this because I had a very politically conservative graduating HS senior boy neighbor (whose parents are also both far right conservatives) tell me last year that he thought that the world had 10 decent years left, and after that things were gonna go to hell because of global warming.

When I heard him say that, my jaw nearly hit the ground ...

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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Greg66] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 15:17

Post #52 of 118 Views: 461

Greg66 wrote:

ericMPro wrote:

You wouldn’t need to defend indefinitely, you’d just need to defend for 18-20 “child-deaths” worth of time (based on recent massacres) until LEO arrives on scene.

Gunfire defectors, auto locking doors, panic buttons, cameras, defense in depth with redundant and bulletproof entry points and internal segregation points, comms for teachers in mutually supporting classrooms, procedures for sweeping up straggler kids in hallways. Most of these resources are already on site just not arranged in the right spatial or sequential arrangement.

E

It’s un fucking believable that anyone would think this is the right solution - for schools, FFS - to shootings.

It's unbelievable that anyone would think doing the same thing we've been doing is the right solution.

It's not the guns, it's the interests pushing the guns, and the interests radicalizing people. Attack them, defend the children. Both of these are achieve by "effective accountable executive branch government" which is my solution for the moment to this problem. Legislative branch government is completely broken.

E

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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 15:20

Post #53 of 118 Views: 454

SDG wrote:

ericMPro wrote:

SWEDE63 wrote:

On this we can agree, neither side wants to let it seem like the other side won. Being from Kansas I was never a Bob Dole fan, however back when he was in office there was at least some civility within our government.

Please understand when I say “harden” …

a) I don’t mean with concrete and rebar I mean make it harder or more costly or more time consuming to hit the target

b) the target is the kids not the school.

c) the threat to our children is now endemic and Societal and cultural and memetic.

All in all, hire a police force that will respond sooner then the current “one full classroom of massacred kids” standard unit of measure, and hire administrators that can extend the threat surface space-time out to where the police response begins.

E

I can't tell if you are being serious with your over the top suggestions or just trying to make a point by being so over the top.

You have schools becoming akin to SEAL TEAM SIX locking down a safe house in Kandahar. While I agree we need to increase cops on site, lock doors, have bullet proof glass put in and a few other things, not sure we can do all you require.

I am being completely serious. The problem is that you have malware installed on your operating system that conflates competence with military porn. They are not the same.

Pretend we're talking about football play diagrams.

E

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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 15:22

Post #54 of 118 Views: 453

SDG wrote:

FishyJoe wrote:

SDG wrote:

This is something else I don't understand about this shooting but will wait for the facts to come out. I know in my kids schools, the doors are locked all day long....no exception. If you want in, there is one way in and its through the office and you have to be buzzed in. There is no way this could have happened at my kids schools unless

1) he shot his way in through the glass or

2) the office accicentally buzzed him in.

All the other doors are locked, made of steel etc.

I suppose someone could shoot their way in through the window and there we are, but there is no way a person is just walking into my kids school with a gun. Not possible.

Add an armed secutiry guard ( one of my kids schools has an armed cop there all day everyday) and I feel pretty good about it. ( Not sure every district in Texas has an armed cop there all day)

Sounds like your kids go to school in a prison.

All the schools I went to growing up were open campuses. Big windows. When you step outside you feel the sun in your face. I rode my bike to school by myself. Then I think about what kids have today and wonder if they really know what freedom is.

No actually it's quite nice. It's a neighborhood school and many are taken by their parents in golf carts, walk on the sidewalks or ride their bikes. They leave their bikes at the front of the school and no one uses a bike lock, just lays their bike down. Skateboards, scooters everywhere and nothing locked up. Teachers are all great, energetic and the class size is small and well funded. Each kid has a ipad. They have recess twice a day and parents often come eat in the cafeteria and bring kids lunch. My kid loves the chick fil a I bring him all the time and time we eat up there.

You can have all of this and have the school locked down during the day with each door outside locked. My kids probably don't even know the doors are locked. Each class has a large window to the outside and they can daydream watching the squirrels all they want.

So what's to stop someone waiting for recess or school getting out and doing the shoot em up? I don't want to see it happen, but you seem to be under the illusion that locked doors are an impediment. If there are windows, then there will always be a line of sight with a shooter.

I don't want to see any of it happen, but in reality most security measures are theater.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [307trout] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 15:22

Post #55 of 118 Views: 453

307trout wrote:

I think Eric speaks in a semi different language but from what I can piece together, it's sort of like taking mostly the same lego blocks you currently have, but arranging them differently in order to have a much better final product.

Yes. This is both strategy (decision to use the same things) and tactics (arrangement of resources in space and time).

Also could be framed as ways and means.

What to do and how to do it.

Etc.

E

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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [drn92] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 15:23

Post #56 of 118 Views: 450

drn92 wrote:

ericMPro wrote:

LorenzoP wrote:

As long as we can buy an AR-15 and body armor there are no practical deterrents to keep people safe. We can build 1000+ bed mental health facilities on every street corner, it won't make any difference.

This is absolute horseshit. Defending a hardened building instead of security theater would solve this problem.

No guns or off-duty rent seeking cops required.

E

I’m sorry, but I would rather imagine a future where our kids do not have to go to school in an armed encampment.

drn92

I'm really questioning everybody's motivations and reading comprehension. I'm advocating for using time and space instead of guns and ammo to keep our kids safe. Literally a gun-free zone.

E

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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 15:25

Post #57 of 118 Views: 449

SDG wrote:

Doru wrote:

SDG wrote:

No actually it's quite nice. It's a neighborhood school and many are taken by their parents in golf carts, walk on the sidewalks or ride their bikes. They leave their bikes at the front of the school and no one uses a bike lock, just lays their bike down. Skateboards, scooters everywhere and nothing locked up. Teachers are all great, energetic and the class size is small and well funded. Each kid has a ipad. They have recess twice a day and parents often come eat in the cafeteria and bring kids lunch. My kid loves the chick fil a I bring him all the time and time we eat up there.

You can have all of this and have the school locked down during the day with each door outside locked. My kids probably don't even know the doors are locked. Each class has a large window to the outside and they can daydream watching the squirrels all they want.

I live in Canada and the schools in my neighborhood have basketball courts / running tracks / soccer fields that are not fenced. How do you defend these?
Do you have a big fence around sport fields?

We have all of those as well. No problems so far and kids play outside everyday. I don't recall ever seeing the situation where any of these cases happened outdoors at the school. I guess if they ever had that, the kids would run into the school as fast as they could.

Then you will need multiple security guards to protect open sport fields, which would be very expensive and impractical.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 15:28

Post #58 of 118 Views: 448

FishyJoe wrote:

I don't want to see any of it happen, but in reality most security measures are theater.

This is the crux of the problem. We live in the real world, and the real world is unforgiving. This is why we have kids play games at school... ritualized combat that are unforgiving like the real world. Ironically we adults are living in a fake social/emotional world where we thing forgiveness is baked in and mistakes don't count or something, and security theater soothes our feelings. That is the only thing I can think of to explain our lack of creativity or sense of urgency.

E

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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Doru] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 15:36

Post #59 of 118 Views: 438

Doru wrote:

SDG wrote:

No actually it's quite nice. It's a neighborhood school and many are taken by their parents in golf carts, walk on the sidewalks or ride their bikes. They leave their bikes at the front of the school and no one uses a bike lock, just lays their bike down. Skateboards, scooters everywhere and nothing locked up. Teachers are all great, energetic and the class size is small and well funded. Each kid has a ipad. They have recess twice a day and parents often come eat in the cafeteria and bring kids lunch. My kid loves the chick fil a I bring him all the time and time we eat up there.

You can have all of this and have the school locked down during the day with each door outside locked. My kids probably don't even know the doors are locked. Each class has a large window to the outside and they can daydream watching the squirrels all they want.

I live in Canada and the schools in my neighborhood have basketball courts / running tracks / soccer fields that are not fenced. How do you defend these?
Do you have a big fence around sport fields?

I would argue that the target is "kids in classrooms" because these are radicalized terrorists not murderers or criminals, and we are losing 1 unit of "kids in classroom" per massacre, because that's what is fetishized and sexualized and that's what's reinforced by the economy or market in that police have a one classroom massacred response time... nobody fantasizes about being a proficient marksman from a distance engaging kids in a field and people might notice a sniper setting up. They'd all run and scatter. These monsters want to hear the screams and see things up close.

Which sounds horrible but is helpful to us in that we can defend against that, defend the 1 classroom getting massacred, but we can't defend sports fields unless we're doing an area defense which we can't do without background checks, waiting periods, red flags, and a will to monitor and investigate threats.

E

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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 15:52

Post #60 of 118 Views: 430

What about concealed carry?

How exactly does one concealed carry a rifle?

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 15:58

Post #61 of 118 Views: 436

Kay Serrar wrote:

ericMPro wrote:

SWEDE63 wrote:

On this we can agree, neither side wants to let it seem like the other side won. Being from Kansas I was never a Bob Dole fan, however back when he was in office there was at least some civility within our government.

Please understand when I say “harden” …

a) I don’t mean with concrete and rebar I mean make it harder or more costly or more time consuming to hit the target

b) the target is the kids not the school.

c) the threat to our children is now endemic and Societal and cultural and memetic.

All in all, hire a police force that will respond sooner then the current “one full classroom of massacred kids” standard unit of measure, and hire administrators that can extend the threat surface space-time out to where the police response begins.

E

How about you stop talking in riddles and stop proposing unworkable (from a cost perspective) solutions to the problem.

And making schools a bit more “hardened” as targets, or getting cops to arrive a few seconds sooner, are not going to solve the problem. The problem is the quantity of guns in our society and the ease with which anyone can buy one. This is not rocket science.

I feel like I'm asking an 1800s surgeon to wash his hands before surgery... you're absolutely baffled as to why you'd do that.

Yes, you're right the number of guns in our society is WAY too high but it's not THE problem. THE problem is the interests that push guns and radicalize people. They are doing what they do with zero pushback or even recognition. Because of that, there are too many guns and too many radicalized people in America, which now seems to be propagating memetically, or by itself, which could lead to a really horrific society and culture.

My reaction, for the moment, is to control what I can control and perhaps channel resiliency and preparedness and just lock the doors at our schools and make it more difficult to massacre and slaughter our babies. Removing guns from our society is a supra-national extra-political problem that's not achievable by a local school board and won't come to pass for 100 years at this rate. My solution is to do something we can do now, for free, based on the realities at play.

Realize what's the target, realize who the actors are, lock the fucking doors, reduce the police response time, save the 1 classroom that is getting slaughtered by reducing the N to 0.

E

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Last edited by: ericMPro: May 25, 22 15:59

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 16:23

Post #62 of 118 Views: 418

ericMPro wrote:

LorenzoP wrote:

As long as we can buy an AR-15 and body armor there are no practical deterrents to keep people safe. We can build 1000+ bed mental health facilities on every street corner, it won't make any difference.

This is absolute horseshit. Defending a hardened building instead of security theater would solve this problem.

No guns or off-duty rent seeking cops required.

E

Cruz mentioned this today during his rant on Fox, one entrance/exit. So guess we will just let the kids burn if there is a fire or be sitting ducks if the shooter(s) get past the guard. Jez...................

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [ruby1] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 16:52

Post #63 of 118 Views: 412

ruby1 wrote:

ericMPro wrote:

LorenzoP wrote:

As long as we can buy an AR-15 and body armor there are no practical deterrents to keep people safe. We can build 1000+ bed mental health facilities on every street corner, it won't make any difference.

This is absolute horseshit. Defending a hardened building instead of security theater would solve this problem.

No guns or off-duty rent seeking cops required.

E

Cruz mentioned this today during his rant on Fox, one entrance/exit. So guess we will just let the kids burn if there is a fire or be sitting ducks if the shooter(s) get past the guard. Jez...................

I can't tell if you're actually serious.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [307trout] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 17:08

Post #64 of 118 Views: 404

307trout wrote:

ruby1 wrote:

ericMPro wrote:

LorenzoP wrote:

As long as we can buy an AR-15 and body armor there are no practical deterrents to keep people safe. We can build 1000+ bed mental health facilities on every street corner, it won't make any difference.

This is absolute horseshit. Defending a hardened building instead of security theater would solve this problem.

No guns or off-duty rent seeking cops required.

E

Cruz mentioned this today during his rant on Fox, one entrance/exit. So guess we will just let the kids burn if there is a fire or be sitting ducks if the shooter(s) get past the guard. Jez...................

I can't tell if you're actually serious.

Why do you question this comment and not the suggestion that we "harden" schools? Single entrance schools are a terrible idea for a number of reasons. Not only safety (fire, stampede, etc) but for logistical reasons as well. Schools are busy places and one entrance would be a nightmare to deal with.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [ruby1] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 17:24

Post #65 of 118 Views: 398

ruby1 wrote:

ericMPro wrote:

LorenzoP wrote:

As long as we can buy an AR-15 and body armor there are no practical deterrents to keep people safe. We can build 1000+ bed mental health facilities on every street corner, it won't make any difference.

This is absolute horseshit. Defending a hardened building instead of security theater would solve this problem.

No guns or off-duty rent seeking cops required.

E

Cruz mentioned this today during his rant on Fox, one entrance/exit. So guess we will just let the kids burn if there is a fire or be sitting ducks if the shooter(s) get past the guard. Jez...................

Crus is an idiot, and so is one entrance.

The idea is to shrink the threat surface such that the schools resources link up with the police’s.

This is not a commentary about politics or gun control, just closing things that close, locking things that lock.

E

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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [southpaw] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 17:30

Post #66 of 118 Views: 394

southpaw wrote:

307trout wrote:

ruby1 wrote:

ericMPro wrote:

LorenzoP wrote:

As long as we can buy an AR-15 and body armor there are no practical deterrents to keep people safe. We can build 1000+ bed mental health facilities on every street corner, it won't make any difference.

This is absolute horseshit. Defending a hardened building instead of security theater would solve this problem.

No guns or off-duty rent seeking cops required.

E

Cruz mentioned this today during his rant on Fox, one entrance/exit. So guess we will just let the kids burn if there is a fire or be sitting ducks if the shooter(s) get past the guard. Jez...................

I can't tell if you're actually serious.

Why do you question this comment and not the suggestion that we "harden" schools? Single entrance schools are a terrible idea for a number of reasons. Not only safety (fire, stampede, etc) but for logistical reasons as well. Schools are busy places and one entrance would be a nightmare to deal with.

They figured out emergency exits for secured doors a long time ago. You may have even seen an alarmed crash door as an emergency exit.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [zed707] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 17:34

Post #67 of 118 Views: 392

zed707 wrote:

southpaw wrote:

307trout wrote:

ruby1 wrote:

ericMPro wrote:

LorenzoP wrote:

As long as we can buy an AR-15 and body armor there are no practical deterrents to keep people safe. We can build 1000+ bed mental health facilities on every street corner, it won't make any difference.

This is absolute horseshit. Defending a hardened building instead of security theater would solve this problem.

No guns or off-duty rent seeking cops required.

E

Cruz mentioned this today during his rant on Fox, one entrance/exit. So guess we will just let the kids burn if there is a fire or be sitting ducks if the shooter(s) get past the guard. Jez...................

I can't tell if you're actually serious.

Why do you question this comment and not the suggestion that we "harden" schools? Single entrance schools are a terrible idea for a number of reasons. Not only safety (fire, stampede, etc) but for logistical reasons as well. Schools are busy places and one entrance would be a nightmare to deal with.

They figured out emergency exits for secured doors a long time ago. You may have even seen an alarmed crash door as an emergency exit.

Holy hell, you solved the riddle!!!

Our schools have functioned this way for as long as I can remember.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [307trout] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 17:43

Post #68 of 118 Views: 383

307trout wrote:

zed707 wrote:

southpaw wrote:

307trout wrote:

ruby1 wrote:

ericMPro wrote:

LorenzoP wrote:

As long as we can buy an AR-15 and body armor there are no practical deterrents to keep people safe. We can build 1000+ bed mental health facilities on every street corner, it won't make any difference.

This is absolute horseshit. Defending a hardened building instead of security theater would solve this problem.

No guns or off-duty rent seeking cops required.

E

Cruz mentioned this today during his rant on Fox, one entrance/exit. So guess we will just let the kids burn if there is a fire or be sitting ducks if the shooter(s) get past the guard. Jez...................

I can't tell if you're actually serious.

Why do you question this comment and not the suggestion that we "harden" schools? Single entrance schools are a terrible idea for a number of reasons. Not only safety (fire, stampede, etc) but for logistical reasons as well. Schools are busy places and one entrance would be a nightmare to deal with.

They figured out emergency exits for secured doors a long time ago. You may have even seen an alarmed crash door as an emergency exit.

Holy hell, you solved the riddle!!!

Our schools have functioned this way for as long as I can remember.

It still makes no sense to me to design schools to accommodate murderers. But whatever man, you can have your fantasy.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 18:10

Post #69 of 118 Views: 374

FishyJoe wrote:

SDG wrote:

FishyJoe wrote:

SDG wrote:

This is something else I don't understand about this shooting but will wait for the facts to come out. I know in my kids schools, the doors are locked all day long....no exception. If you want in, there is one way in and its through the office and you have to be buzzed in. There is no way this could have happened at my kids schools unless

1) he shot his way in through the glass or

2) the office accicentally buzzed him in.

All the other doors are locked, made of steel etc.

I suppose someone could shoot their way in through the window and there we are, but there is no way a person is just walking into my kids school with a gun. Not possible.

Add an armed secutiry guard ( one of my kids schools has an armed cop there all day everyday) and I feel pretty good about it. ( Not sure every district in Texas has an armed cop there all day)

Sounds like your kids go to school in a prison.

All the schools I went to growing up were open campuses. Big windows. When you step outside you feel the sun in your face. I rode my bike to school by myself. Then I think about what kids have today and wonder if they really know what freedom is.

No actually it's quite nice. It's a neighborhood school and many are taken by their parents in golf carts, walk on the sidewalks or ride their bikes. They leave their bikes at the front of the school and no one uses a bike lock, just lays their bike down. Skateboards, scooters everywhere and nothing locked up. Teachers are all great, energetic and the class size is small and well funded. Each kid has a ipad. They have recess twice a day and parents often come eat in the cafeteria and bring kids lunch. My kid loves the chick fil a I bring him all the time and time we eat up there.

You can have all of this and have the school locked down during the day with each door outside locked. My kids probably don't even know the doors are locked. Each class has a large window to the outside and they can daydream watching the squirrels all they want.

So what's to stop someone waiting for recess or school getting out and doing the shoot em up? I don't want to see it happen, but you seem to be under the illusion that locked doors are an impediment. If there are windows, then there will always be a line of sight with a shooter.

I don't want to see any of it happen, but in reality most security measures are theater.

The NRA did come up with a solution here of how to build schools. The answer, and this may shock you, was basically a prison. No windows, no trees or bushes (if you had to have bushes make them thorny), fences that demonstrate "territorial ownership", no parking lots, etc.

I am sure kids would love going to school in a prison.

But on the plus side the NRA was generously providing this advice for free. So that is nice.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [southpaw] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 18:16

Post #70 of 118 Views: 372

southpaw wrote:

307trout wrote:

ruby1 wrote:

ericMPro wrote:

LorenzoP wrote:

As long as we can buy an AR-15 and body armor there are no practical deterrents to keep people safe. We can build 1000+ bed mental health facilities on every street corner, it won't make any difference.

This is absolute horseshit. Defending a hardened building instead of security theater would solve this problem.

No guns or off-duty rent seeking cops required.

E

Cruz mentioned this today during his rant on Fox, one entrance/exit. So guess we will just let the kids burn if there is a fire or be sitting ducks if the shooter(s) get past the guard. Jez...................

I can't tell if you're actually serious.

Why do you question this comment and not the suggestion that we "harden" schools? Single entrance schools are a terrible idea for a number of reasons. Not only safety (fire, stampede, etc) but for logistical reasons as well. Schools are busy places and one entrance would be a nightmare to deal with.

Maybe we can rename them triangle shirtwaist elementary?

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [chaparral] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 18:32

Post #71 of 118 Views: 367

Replying to last.

I have 2 kids in public school, and a third that’ll go. We couldn’t afford ventilators in a global airborne pandemic, can’t afford enough teachers, can’t afford basic supplies. The idea that we’ll find funds to hire highly effective security guards and “harden” our schools (subtly, you understand, not like a prison), is laughable. It will never happen. Even if it did, 2 or 3 LEOs engaged this shooter and couldn’t stop him accessing the school. As many other instances have show, even if there is a good (and very brave, you often don’t get both) guy with a gun he’s often ineffective. Passing gun control legislation is highly unlikely, having a surfeit of funds in public education budgets is even less likely.

But this is my bigger point. I don’t want hardened schools. I don’t want bullet proof glass even if it’s indistinguishable from regular glass. I don’t want armed guards even if the kids don’t see them. I flat don’t want to live in a society where defending myself and my children from potential acts of mass murder becomes a rational thing to think about and invest resources in, beyond the sort of precautions I take to avoid getting hit by lightning.

"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Bretom] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 18:38

Post #72 of 118 Views: 363

Bretom wrote:

Replying to last.

I have 2 kids in public school, and a third that’ll go. We couldn’t afford ventilators in a global airborne pandemic, can’t afford enough teachers, can’t afford basic supplies. The idea that we’ll find funds to hire highly effective security guards and “harden” our schools (subtly, you understand, not like a prison), is laughable. It will never happen. Even if it did, 2 or 3 LEOs engaged this shooter and couldn’t stop him accessing the school. As many other instances have show, even if there is a good (and very brave, you often don’t get both) guy with a gun he’s often ineffective. Passing gun control legislation is highly unlikely, having a surfeit of funds in public education budgets is even less likely.

But this is my bigger point. I don’t want hardened schools. I don’t want bullet proof glass even if it’s indistinguishable from regular glass. I don’t want armed guards even if the kids don’t see them. I flat don’t want to live in a society where defending myself and my children from potential acts of mass murder becomes a rational thing to think about and invest resources in, beyond the sort of precautions I take to avoid getting hit by lightning.

Each of those things you listed is a direct reduction in freedoms to each and every American that not only attends school, but also goes to grocery stores, churches, festivals, concerts, etc. Making accomodations in our infrastructure for murderers when we won't pass very basic and effective gun control measures makes us less free. Living without constant threat of deadly violence makes us more free.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 18:48

Post #73 of 118 Views: 358

ericMPro wrote:

Kay Serrar wrote:

ericMPro wrote:

SWEDE63 wrote:

On this we can agree, neither side wants to let it seem like the other side won. Being from Kansas I was never a Bob Dole fan, however back when he was in office there was at least some civility within our government.

Please understand when I say “harden” …

a) I don’t mean with concrete and rebar I mean make it harder or more costly or more time consuming to hit the target

b) the target is the kids not the school.

c) the threat to our children is now endemic and Societal and cultural and memetic.

All in all, hire a police force that will respond sooner then the current “one full classroom of massacred kids” standard unit of measure, and hire administrators that can extend the threat surface space-time out to where the police response begins.

E

How about you stop talking in riddles and stop proposing unworkable (from a cost perspective) solutions to the problem.

And making schools a bit more “hardened” as targets, or getting cops to arrive a few seconds sooner, are not going to solve the problem. The problem is the quantity of guns in our society and the ease with which anyone can buy one. This is not rocket science.

I feel like I'm asking an 1800s surgeon to wash his hands before surgery... you're absolutely baffled as to why you'd do that.

Yes, you're right the number of guns in our society is WAY too high but it's not THE problem. THE problem is the interests that push guns and radicalize people. They are doing what they do with zero pushback or even recognition. Because of that, there are too many guns and too many radicalized people in America, which now seems to be propagating memetically, or by itself, which could lead to a really horrific society and culture.

My reaction, for the moment, is to control what I can control and perhaps channel resiliency and preparedness and just lock the doors at our schools and make it more difficult to massacre and slaughter our babies. Removing guns from our society is a supra-national extra-political problem that's not achievable by a local school board and won't come to pass for 100 years at this rate. My solution is to do something we can do now, for free, based on the realities at play.

Realize what's the target, realize who the actors are, lock the fucking doors, reduce the police response time, save the 1 classroom that is getting slaughtered by reducing the N to 0.

E

Look, I know you have a bit of a hard on for this magical solution, but the reality is that an 18 year old kid with a hidden gun and an intent to kill is still going to find his way into a school, and sometimes they are actually students doing the shooting. What you propose would be prohibitively costly and barely make a difference, if at all. It might also not meet fire safety codes.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [southpaw] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 18:49

Post #74 of 118 Views: 358

southpaw wrote:

Bretom wrote:

Replying to last.

I have 2 kids in public school, and a third that’ll go. We couldn’t afford ventilators in a global airborne pandemic, can’t afford enough teachers, can’t afford basic supplies. The idea that we’ll find funds to hire highly effective security guards and “harden” our schools (subtly, you understand, not like a prison), is laughable. It will never happen. Even if it did, 2 or 3 LEOs engaged this shooter and couldn’t stop him accessing the school. As many other instances have show, even if there is a good (and very brave, you often don’t get both) guy with a gun he’s often ineffective. Passing gun control legislation is highly unlikely, having a surfeit of funds in public education budgets is even less likely.

But this is my bigger point. I don’t want hardened schools. I don’t want bullet proof glass even if it’s indistinguishable from regular glass. I don’t want armed guards even if the kids don’t see them. I flat don’t want to live in a society where defending myself and my children from potential acts of mass murder becomes a rational thing to think about and invest resources in, beyond the sort of precautions I take to avoid getting hit by lightning.

Each of those things you listed is a direct reduction in freedoms to each and every American that not only attends school, but also goes to grocery stores, churches, festivals, concerts, etc. Making accomodations in our infrastructure for murderers when we won't pass very basic and effective gun control measures makes us less free. Living without constant threat of deadly violence makes us more free.

Thank you, that was well put and I couldnt agree more.

"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Bretom] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 19:32

Post #75 of 118 Views: 336

A lot of schools, maybe even most schools were designed decades if not centuries ago. The last thing on their mind was security, some might not even have had locks if you go back far enough.

The high school I went to was designed in the 1950's. It would be almost impossible to turn into a prison. The campus is laid out like a college campus, with many one story buildings spread out over acres of land. There are gigantic windows right next to the doors. You can look right in.

It would probably cost tens of millions to secure all the schools in my hometown district like some have suggested. It's just not reality.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 20:35

Post #76 of 118 Views: 667

In my first year of chaplain residency one of our units was focused on the wonderings you and SDG mention - How is unaddressed fear, real or sensationalized, functioning within our society and how does one respond to its impacts? Our focus was more concerned with the acute care health care setting, but the concepts certainly apply. There is a theory in some camps of psychodynamics suggesting that which is not transformed is transferred. How unaddressed and potentially overwhelming fear is transferred is a question that is certainly owed more attention. It will not be a comfortable conversation if people are honest about it because of America's ongoing culture of avoidance. There is much to unpack.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [southpaw] [ In reply to ]

May 25, 22 22:26

Post #77 of 118 Views: 646

when we won't pass very basic and effective gun control measures

Honest question. What very basic gun control measures would have stopped yesterday? How do you know they would be effective?

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 3:17

Post #78 of 118 Views: 628

Cavechild wrote:

when we won't pass very basic and effective gun control measures

Honest question. What very basic gun control measures would have stopped yesterday? How do you know they would be effective?

Raise the age to buy guns to 21.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [CallMeMaybe] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 3:47

Post #79 of 118 Views: 619

CallMeMaybe wrote:

My kids imagine what it would be like every time they have to do a drill at school. My daughter has anxiety at school, and this year she has a nice teacher who gave her a special code word in case my daughter gets locked outside a classroom during a drill.

There’s a wide ripple effect from the horrific trauma of each school shooting incident.

I did not have to imagine when I was in school either. We had regular nuclear attack drills. We literally practiced curling up into a ball under our desks.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 4:23

Post #80 of 118 Views: 612

Cavechild wrote:

when we won't pass very basic and effective gun control measures

Honest question. What very basic gun control measures would have stopped yesterday? How do you know they would be effective?

Well the shooter bought two weapons right when he turned 18, so raising the minimum age to purchase a firearm to 21 seems like an easy one.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [gall1972] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 4:42

Post #81 of 118 Views: 606

gall1972 wrote:

Scary to think what this country would be like if there weren't deterrents in place such as school police, building security protocols, mental health protocols, and the education and encouragement of students to report things they see and hear.

Imagine what's deterred and stopped because of these protocols already in place .... and then it's really scary to think that the above isnt anywhere near enough to stop this chaos.

When my son was 10 we moved to Norway.

He has now been 3 1/2 years at a Norwegian school.

Number of lock down drills: 0
Number of school shootings in Norway: 0

He said yesterday he is glad he is no longer at an American school.

Imagine that.........

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [southpaw] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 5:18

Post #82 of 118 Views: 585

southpaw wrote:

Cavechild wrote:

when we won't pass very basic and effective gun control measures

Honest question. What very basic gun control measures would have stopped yesterday? How do you know they would be effective?

Well the shooter bought two weapons right when he turned 18, so raising the minimum age to purchase a firearm to 21 seems like an easy one.

That's just the most obvious one.

Waiting period may have given him a chance to reconsider. Conservatives seem to like this strategy for abortions.

Limit and track how much ammo you can buy, like we do Sudafed. It would raise a red flag and he wouldn't have had 400 rounds of ammo.

Requiring a gun license may have provided another opportunity to raise a red flag.

Get rid of 30 round magazines, or at least make them harder to get.

Gun regulations can work. We should all be thankful he didn't have access to a 600 round per minute Uzi

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Thom] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 5:20

Post #83 of 118 Views: 583

Oh there are many fairly easy things we can do. There's not one thing that will fix the problem, but instead multiple things that work together.

You brought up abortions. Generally I don't like comparing unrelated things, but it is insane that the same state that wants to ban abortions doesn't do a single damn thing when children are murdered by firearms.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [southpaw] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 5:23

Post #84 of 118 Views: 579

southpaw wrote:

Oh there are many fairly easy things we can do. There's not one thing that will fix the problem, but instead multiple things that work together.

You brought up abortions. Generally I don't like comparing unrelated things, but it is insane that the same state that wants to ban abortions doesn't do a single damn thing when children are murdered by firearms.

Pro-life they say.

Suffer Well.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [jmh] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 5:58

Post #85 of 118 Views: 558

The American Taliban are wrong on so many issues to the extreme. Dems can get carried away too at times.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Thom] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 9:19

Post #86 of 118 Views: 535

Limit and track how much ammo you can buy, like we do Sudafed. It would raise a red flag and he wouldn't have had 400 rounds of ammo.

This is one of those ones that show's a complete lack of understanding of the gun culture and would only inconvenience gun owners. When I go to the range, I regularly shoot off hundreds of rounds. So they would be tracking pretty much everyone who shoots regularly.

A good analogy would be to stop drunk driving, we would limit and track how much alcohol you can buy.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 9:27

Post #87 of 118 Views: 530

Cavechild wrote:

This is one of those ones that show's a complete lack of understanding of the gun culture and would only inconvenience gun owners. When I go to the range, I regularly shoot off hundreds of rounds. So they would be tracking pretty much everyone who shoots regularly.

Damn, that's a lot of rounds. What kind of ammo exactly? You must be well off because these days that's kinda expensive.

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 9:33

Post #88 of 118 Views: 525

Cavechild wrote:

Limit and track how much ammo you can buy, like we do Sudafed. It would raise a red flag and he wouldn't have had 400 rounds of ammo.

This is one of those ones that show's a complete lack of understanding of the gun culture and would only inconvenience gun owners. When I go to the range, I regularly shoot off hundreds of rounds. So they would be tracking pretty much everyone who shoots regularly.

A good analogy would be to stop drunk driving, we would limit and track how much alcohol you can buy.

Then what's your idea? Do you want to be a good and responsible steward of the culture you are so enthusiastically apart of?

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 9:36

Post #89 of 118 Views: 525

Cavechild wrote:

Limit and track how much ammo you can buy, like we do Sudafed. It would raise a red flag and he wouldn't have had 400 rounds of ammo.

This is one of those ones that show's a complete lack of understanding of the gun culture and would only inconvenience gun owners. When I go to the range, I regularly shoot off hundreds of rounds. So they would be tracking pretty much everyone who shoots regularly.

A good analogy would be to stop drunk driving, we would limit and track how much alcohol you can buy.

I'm sorry you would be inconvenienced. I'm inconvenienced when I buy Sudafed. I'm ok with that.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 9:40

Post #90 of 118 Views: 519

Damn, that's a lot of rounds. What kind of ammo exactly?
22

You must be well off because these days that's kinda expensive.
I am, and it's gotten worse. It's why I shoot 22 pistol. I only need to put holes in paper. I don't have the gun for protection. I joke if someone broke into my house and I needed my gun, I would need about 10 minutes warning to get everything together.
Years ago I had a coworker take me to the range, and I found the focus of target shooting quite relaxing.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 9:47

Post #91 of 118 Views: 521

Cavechild wrote:

when we won't pass very basic and effective gun control measures

Honest question. What very basic gun control measures would have stopped yesterday? How do you know they would be effective?

At a minimum 3 day waiting period, I would prefer 7 with a strict background check.

I have issues with raising the age to 21 just as I do with the drinking age being 21. If you want to raise the age to enter the armed forces to 21 then I'm open to that but otherwise, for me, it's a non-starter.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Thom] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 9:52

Post #92 of 118 Views: 517

I'm sorry you would be inconvenienced. I'm inconvenienced when I buy Sudafed. I'm ok with that.

Remember the part about effective? Good thing that Sudafed law stopped the drug problem in America. I'm sure if this guy was limited to 100 rounds a day he wouldn't have just gone back the next day.

It's what scares me when people say common sense laws. Generally speaking, the people that say that lack common sense.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [jmh] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 9:53

Post #93 of 118 Views: 515

jmh wrote:

SDG wrote:

Fair enough but I don't think open carry and concealed carry (i agree they are dumb) are relevant when it comes to why teenage guys are turning into psychotic animals and killing kids. They could get guns in the 70's and 80s just as easy. Most everyone I knew had a dad or grandpa with tons of guns in closets, gun cabinets or laying around the house. Not a one was ever used to kill someone.

Any idea on what's different about guns in the 70's and 80's that were easy to get and were in every house you knew and those available today?

By the way people talk about gun racks in trucks you would think these guys were carrying some high capacity gun in their trucks when most, if not all of them were single shot rifles with maybe an ability to hold 6 to 12 bullets.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 9:55

Post #94 of 118 Views: 512

Cavechild wrote:

I'm sorry you would be inconvenienced. I'm inconvenienced when I buy Sudafed. I'm ok with that.

Remember the part about effective? Good thing that Sudafed law stopped the drug problem in America. I'm sure if this guy was limited to 100 rounds a day he wouldn't have just gone back the next day.

It's what scares me when people say common sense laws. Generally speaking, the people that say that lack common sense.

Why should he be able to buy 100 rounds a day? If you want to use that amount of ammo, purchase it to use at a gun range. If someone keeps returning day after day, you don't think that might send alarm bells ringing, especially if a background check were required each time?

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Bretom] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 9:55

Post #95 of 118 Views: 512

Bretom wrote:

Replying to last.

I have 2 kids in public school, and a third that’ll go. We couldn’t afford ventilators in a global airborne pandemic, can’t afford enough teachers, can’t afford basic supplies. The idea that we’ll find funds to hire highly effective security guards and “harden” our schools (subtly, you understand, not like a prison), is laughable. It will never happen. Even if it did, 2 or 3 LEOs engaged this shooter and couldn’t stop him accessing the school. As many other instances have show, even if there is a good (and very brave, you often don’t get both) guy with a gun he’s often ineffective. Passing gun control legislation is highly unlikely, having a surfeit of funds in public education budgets is even less likely.

But this is my bigger point. I don’t want hardened schools. I don’t want bullet proof glass even if it’s indistinguishable from regular glass. I don’t want armed guards even if the kids don’t see them. I flat don’t want to live in a society where defending myself and my children from potential acts of mass murder becomes a rational thing to think about and invest resources in, beyond the sort of precautions I take to avoid getting hit by lightning.

I find it quite odd your list of things we could not afford yet magically we have Billions to send to Ukraine.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 11:19

Post #96 of 118 Views: 495

Cavechild wrote:

I'm sorry you would be inconvenienced. I'm inconvenienced when I buy Sudafed. I'm ok with that.

Remember the part about effective? Good thing that Sudafed law stopped the drug problem in America. I'm sure if this guy was limited to 100 rounds a day he wouldn't have just gone back the next day.

It's what scares me when people say common sense laws. Generally speaking, the people that say that lack common sense.

You claimed to be asking an honest question but are just arguing with every suggestion being made. Suggestions that have been shown to reduce gun violence in every other developed country in the world. You don't really seem interested in honest conversation.

You asked specifically about what would have stopped this event. You ignored the repeated suggestion that an higher age limit would do just that.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 12:08

Post #97 of 118 Views: 483

Why should he be able to buy 100 rounds a day? If you want to use that amount of ammo, purchase it to use at a gun range.
So you shouldn't be able to buy 100 rounds at a gun store, but you can buy it at a gun store that also has a range. Hmmmm let me think that could work! Oh wait, one could just leave with the ammo. Or is the plan to buy them one at a time and verify they are used? Let me guess to prevent the bad guy with a gun from buying them and leaving, you're going to rely on a good guy with a gun.

If someone keeps returning day after day, you don't think that might send alarm bells ringing, especially if a background check were required each time? As I said. So they would be having alarm bells ringing constantly and doing background checks all the time. The FBI can't keep up on the background checks when you buy guns. Now you want to add the 100X more checks? In order to enact common sense laws, one first needs common sense.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 12:26

Post #98 of 118 Views: 479

Cavechild wrote:

Why should he be able to buy 100 rounds a day? If you want to use that amount of ammo, purchase it to use at a gun range.
So you shouldn't be able to buy 100 rounds at a gun store, but you can buy it at a gun store that also has a range. Hmmmm let me think that could work! Oh wait, one could just leave with the ammo. Or is the plan to buy them one at a time and verify they are used? Let me guess to prevent the bad guy with a gun from buying them and leaving, you're going to rely on a good guy with a gun.

If someone keeps returning day after day, you don't think that might send alarm bells ringing, especially if a background check were required each time? As I said. So they would be having alarm bells ringing constantly and doing background checks all the time. The FBI can't keep up on the background checks when you buy guns. Now you want to add the 100X more checks? In order to enact common sense laws, one first needs common sense.

You really have no critical thinking skills do you? The ammo you buy at the range is used at the range, you don’t take it home. It would be a simple registry your name is entered in and updates as you buy. Someone comes in consistently, they would be flagged, it’s not that hard. If they allowed a national registry, the FBI background checks would not be as difficult.

But go ahead, we can’t solve problems if we don’t look for solutions. It is easier if you keep your head buried in the sand as if there isn’t a problem.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 13:14

Post #99 of 118 Views: 469

You really have no critical thinking skills do you?

Ummm. The ammo you buy at the range is used at the range, you don’t take it home. Since I'm struggling with the few times I ran out of ammo at the range and was having enough fun to justify paying their huge mark-up. Amazingly the ammo I had left didn't disappear when I left with it. When I went back the following week, it still worked too.

Now I'm sure a person about to shoot up a school is going to go to the range. Buy 500 rounds and when they see the sign saying Ammo Purchased Here Cannot Leave. That's going to stop them. Damn. Maybe we should put a similar sign outside of schools. You Can Only Shoot Kids With Ammo Purchased at This School. And get this, Don't actually sell ammo at the school. Damn. We solved it!

People without common sense really shouldn't propose common sense laws.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 13:19

Post #100 of 118 Views: 464

Cavechild wrote:

People without common sense really shouldn't propose common sense laws.

Since you seem to be the gatekeeper of common sense, what do you propose?

Suffer Well.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 13:24

Post #101 of 118 Views: 493

Cavechild wrote:

Now I'm sure a person about to shoot up a school is going to go to the range. Buy 500 rounds and when they see the sign saying Ammo Purchased Here Cannot Leave. That's going to stop them. Damn. Maybe we should put a similar sign outside of schools. You Can Only Shoot Kids With Ammo Purchased at This School. And get this, Don't actually sell ammo at the school. Damn. We solved it![/font]

People without common sense really shouldn't propose common sense laws.

Are you arguing against all laws then? Why have any laws at all if every single law can be broken?

I recommend you stop arguing ideas and look at facts. Let’s find some relevant facts that we agree are true. After we have the relevant facts, we can use them to form reasonable ideas. In law, the briefs always start with a statement of facts. So start with facts and apply ideas & rules.

Fact: countries with restrictive gun laws have fewer incidents of gun violence. A 2016 review of 130 studies in 10 countries, published in Epidemiologic Reviews, found that new legal restrictions on owning and purchasing guns tended to be followed by a drop in gun violence. That's a strong indicator that restricting access to guns can save lives.

Do you agree with this fact?

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 14:18

Post #102 of 118 Views: 478

Cavechild wrote:

You really have no critical thinking skills do you?

Ummm. The ammo you buy at the range is used at the range, you don’t take it home. Since I'm struggling with the few times I ran out of ammo at the range and was having enough fun to justify paying their huge mark-up. Amazingly the ammo I had left didn't disappear when I left with it. When I went back the following week, it still worked too.

Now I'm sure a person about to shoot up a school is going to go to the range. Buy 500 rounds and when they see the sign saying Ammo Purchased Here Cannot Leave. That's going to stop them. Damn. Maybe we should put a similar sign outside of schools. You Can Only Shoot Kids With Ammo Purchased at This School. And get this, Don't actually sell ammo at the school. Damn. We solved it!

People without common sense really shouldn't propose common sense laws.

A gun range would need to be secured, eliminating the possibility of leaving with ammo. And since you don’t want someone without common sense proposing laws, it’s a good thing you haven’t.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 15:32

Post #103 of 118 Views: 447

A gun range would need to be secured, eliminating the possibility of leaving with ammo.
Ahhh. I see so the guy with a fully loaded AR about to shoot up a school is going to be stopped from leaving with ammo. How exactly? A good guy with a gun? So we can secure a shooting range, but not a school?

Sort of amazing. Your common sense gun laws are pretty much what the GOP is proposing.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [CallMeMaybe] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 15:39

Post #104 of 118 Views: 444

Do you agree with this fact?
Yes. And at least publicly the democrats do. There are two problems.
1.) Most of the GOP doesn't.
2.) The Democrats gun control implementation plan is trying to change the GOP's mind. Isn't the definition of insanity trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [gall1972] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 16:07

Post #105 of 118 Views: 436

I cannot get these thoughts out of my head last night, and today.
My daughter loved her school. She loved her teachers, and her classroom. She was the first in her class to ride her bike to school. The year that she started to bike to school, I followed her the first few times to and then from, without her being aware. I heard her sing as she pedaled. I watched her lock the bike and proceed, skipping into the building. Her school was an extension of her home. She had a Disney Princess book bag, a purple lunch box, and round Poindexter eyeglasses. She introduced her classmates to using chopsticks at lunch, and thought it was cool that she was the only one of her friends that ate Okinawa Sweet Potatoes (they’re purple). I was a school board member at her school. I could walk the halls during the school day. I wore pajamas and read stories to her class on “Pajama Day.” Once or twice I looked at her through the classroom window. I watched and listened to her sing. I saw her laugh. And I saw her completely focused while meticulously writing on her paper - her pencil appearing excessively long in her tiny hand. I have a shoe box filled with her projects - and a well stained Art smock.
Then I see her startled jump and shout as the class door gets kicked open. I hear her friends and teacher scream. I see her confusion. I see and hear shooting and I see her scream and paralyzed in terror as her tiny friends and teacher explode. I see their body parts come off, and I hear her shout “Mommy! Daddy!” I can feel her fear and her abandonment. I feel her last thoughts… “Where is my daddy? Why isn’t he here?” And I can’t tell her “Baby, just run to Jesus!”
I have to have a police officer tell me that I need to identify the pieces of my little girl. I have to hold her mother. I sit in her silent bedroom and smell her, while the void gets deeper. The emptiness of never hearing her joyful laugh. I will be forced to place the most beautiful thing I have ever done in the ground, knowing that she wondered where I was.
I hope these thoughts turn to prayers for parents and legislators, because so far today, I don’t know what else to do with them.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 16:12

Post #106 of 118 Views: 435

Cavechild wrote:

Do you agree with this fact?
Yes. And at least publicly the democrats do. There are two problems.
1.) Most of the GOP doesn't.
2.) The Democrats gun control implementation plan is trying to change the GOP's mind. Isn't the definition of insanity trying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Why don’t the GOP believe this fact?

You seem attuned to the GOP mindset. How about using your special insight to make a huge fucking difference in this world instead of fighting with me? I’m giving you all my best arguments. Take them. Put your shoulder to this huge rock and help me push.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 18:50

Post #107 of 118 Views: 413

SDG wrote:

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things. They also see the juxtoposition of the very rich ( tic toc stars, athletes and celebrities) and see that as the american dream. If they can't achieve that status, then what is it all for. Add to that mountains of debt to go to college for the chance to even get a job paying you enough to live in an average apartment and you can see why some are depressed. Throw in two long years of COVID fear and shutdowns and it could seem hopeless to a person without a strong parental influence at home. Just my thesis but who knows.

I think there's much validity in the above. I can see why kids these days get anxious. The access to information (and misinformation) makes it so much easier to be led down a dark path. I really don't want to get started on the net effect of social media.

SDG wrote:

I do agree the gun laws should be changed to outlaw AR15 ( no reason to have one),
2) waiting period for any guns ( at least a week)
3) universal background checks ( I think we already have this)
, 4) no one under the age of 21 can buy a gun,
5) outlaw all semi-autos ( even pistols)

I still don't think this would prevent a lot of these situations but hopefully a start.

1) and 5) Whole-heartedly agree
2) without an urgent reason for one (like an abusive ex about to be released on parole) that waiting period should be much longer, like 2-3+ months. Plan ahead and demonstrate over time you're not a risk.

Imagine living in a world where active shooter drills were not required, or where schools didn't need to be locked. It's reality in many parts.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]

May 26, 22 21:39

Post #108 of 118 Views: 403

Cavechild wrote:

A gun range would need to be secured, eliminating the possibility of leaving with ammo.
Ahhh. I see so the guy with a fully loaded AR about to shoot up a school is going to be stopped from leaving with ammo. How exactly? A good guy with a gun? So we can secure a shooting range, but not a school?

Sort of amazing. Your common sense gun laws are pretty much what the GOP is proposing.

The fact that you cannot see the difference between a gun range and a school is astounding. I hope there are good guys with guns at a gun range, I don’t want them to be required at my grandson’s school. What about that is so hard to understand?

FFS, Francois little boy is having active shooter drills at 3, you don’t see this as a problem?

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]

May 27, 22 1:11

Post #109 of 118 Views: 390

I can not imagine living somewhere where having active shooter drills for infants is normalised. That's so fucked up I don't even have the words

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [SDG] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 22 6:37

Post #110 of 118 Views: 327

SDG wrote:

Why is that? What has changed between then ( guns everywhere) and now ( guns everywhere) that makes psychotic animals want to shoot up schools? Surely it is multi-factorial but we need to study this as much as anything. I suggest kids these days are largely seeing a darker world then we ( 80's kids) grew up in. Although we had the cold war, we also had optimism about growing up, getting a job, getting married, having a family and living the american dream. The American dream was a wife, kids, boat on the weekend and vacation at the beach each summer. Maybe golf each sunday afternoon with the boys.

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things. They also see the juxtoposition of the very rich ( tic toc stars, athletes and celebrities) and see that as the american dream. If they can't achieve that status, then what is it all for. Add to that mountains of debt to go to college for the chance to even get a job paying you enough to live in an average apartment and you can see why some are depressed. Throw in two long years of COVID fear and shutdowns and it could seem hopeless to a person without a strong parental influence at home. Just my thesis but who knows. tart.

This is an interesting view. But, a question: are today's young people troubled because:

1) of actual fear of things actually getting worse for today's young people?

Or
2) because of fear of things that appear to be getting worse (from fear porn, etc.), but actually in reality things are just dandy?

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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Jun 1, 22 6:47

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 22 6:44

Post #111 of 118 Views: 326

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

SDG wrote:

[quote ga

Why is that? What has changed between then ( guns everywhere) and now ( guns everywhere) that makes psychotic animals want to shoot up schools? Surely it is multi-factorial but we need to study this as much as anything. I suggest kids these days are largely seeing a darker world then we ( 80's kids) grew up in. Although we had the cold war, we also had optimism about growing up, getting a job, getting married, having a family and living the american dream. The American dream was a wife, kids, boat on the weekend and vacation at the beach each summer. Maybe golf each sunday afternoon with the boys.

Kids currently only see fear porn all over the internet and social media about the word coming to an end because of climate change, race relations, discrimination, and all sorts of other things. They also see the juxtoposition of the very rich ( tic toc stars, athletes and celebrities) and see that as the american dream. If they can't achieve that status, then what is it all for. Add to that mountains of debt to go to college for the chance to even get a job paying you enough to live in an average apartment and you can see why some are depressed. Throw in two long years of COVID fear and shutdowns and it could seem hopeless to a person without a strong parental influence at home. Just my thesis but who knows. tart.

This is an interesting view. But, a question: are today's young people troubled because:

1) of actual fear of things actually getting worse for today's young people?

Or
2) because of fear of things that appear to be getting worse (from fear porn, etc.), but actually in reality things are just dandy?

My running theory is that things just look like they are getting worse.
1. Unlike when we use to get our news at 6pm every night, we now are bombarded with it. 24 hours news stations, twitter, facebook, etc.... Our brains cannot take in all that and process it properly. So while it looks like there are a tonne "more" things happening. The fact is, we are just hearing about more incidents. We get not only the global but also a lot of local. We just can't process it all. So personally, I think it is not on the rise but rather we are just hearing about it a lot more. I believe violent crime is actually on the decline in many places.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [M~] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 22 6:50

Post #112 of 118 Views: 320

I would agree with you about crime and violent crime.

But what about environmental, climate, and/or existential crises?

Are those real, or imaginary?

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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 22 6:53

Post #113 of 118 Views: 315

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

I would agree with you about crime and violent crime.

But what about environmental, climate, and/or existential crises?

Are those real, or imaginary?

Ah, yeah those are real. At least my perception of them is and the weather patterns seem to be changing as well.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [M~] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 22 6:58

Post #114 of 118 Views: 310

M~ wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

I would agree with you about crime and violent crime.

But what about environmental, climate, and/or existential crises?

Are those real, or imaginary?

Ah, yeah those are real. At least my perception of them is and the weather patterns seem to be changing as well.

So that kinda begs the question, is the darker world (as SDG says above) that youth are seeing every day, does this influence the mental health of them as a whole? And does it influence the more vulnerable ones? Could the darker world that we are all living in influence young (and somewhat young) people to kill others in mass shootings?

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
DarkSpeedWorks.com.....Reviews.....Insta.....Facebook
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Last edited by: DarkSpeedWorks: Jun 1, 22 7:00

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 22 7:11

Post #115 of 118 Views: 302

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

M~ wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

I would agree with you about crime and violent crime.

But what about environmental, climate, and/or existential crises?

Are those real, or imaginary?

Ah, yeah those are real. At least my perception of them is and the weather patterns seem to be changing as well.

So that kinda begs the question, is the darker world (as SDG says above) that youth are seeing every day, does this influence the mental health of them as a whole? And does it influence the more vulnerable ones? Could the darker world that we are all living in influence young (and somewhat young) people to kill others in mass shootings?

Again, in my opinion 100% yes. It affects everyone but especially the younger ones who are still developing. And some kids are really susceptible more than others to certain kinds of stimulus. Heck it influences "fully formed" adults to act in stupid ways, what hope does a kid have??!

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 22 7:46

Post #116 of 118 Views: 284

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

M~ wrote:

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:

I would agree with you about crime and violent crime.

But what about environmental, climate, and/or existential crises?

Are those real, or imaginary?

Ah, yeah those are real. At least my perception of them is and the weather patterns seem to be changing as well.

So that kinda begs the question, is the darker world (as SDG says above) that youth are seeing every day, does this influence the mental health of them as a whole? And does it influence the more vulnerable ones? Could the darker world that we are all living in influence young (and somewhat young) people to kill others in mass shootings?

I can certainly see scenarios, fed by these worlds, that lead to young, isolated people going on a rampage against their peers. They hate the people around them for any number of reasons. However that clarity really dissipates with this recent example as well as Sandy Hook. What possible motive could drive one to target those so young? Whether it was horrible coincidence (the first classrooms they came across) or not I suppose we won't know.

When I was young I don't recall hearing too much about what was going on around the world. It had to be a really significant event. Today you can't escape it. But it's not just news stories. Social media posts result in 100's or thousands of heated back and forths. There is a lot of visible hostility. It takes a pretty stable individual to block out all that noise.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Doru] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 22 15:46

Post #117 of 118 Views: 256

Doru wrote:

SDG wrote:

No actually it's quite nice. It's a neighborhood school and many are taken by their parents in golf carts, walk on the sidewalks or ride their bikes. They leave their bikes at the front of the school and no one uses a bike lock, just lays their bike down. Skateboards, scooters everywhere and nothing locked up. Teachers are all great, energetic and the class size is small and well funded. Each kid has a ipad. They have recess twice a day and parents often come eat in the cafeteria and bring kids lunch. My kid loves the chick fil a I bring him all the time and time we eat up there.

You can have all of this and have the school locked down during the day with each door outside locked. My kids probably don't even know the doors are locked. Each class has a large window to the outside and they can daydream watching the squirrels all they want.

I live in Canada and the schools in my neighborhood have basketball courts / running tracks / soccer fields that are not fenced. How do you defend these?
Do you have a big fence around sport fields?

During sports activities and recess, a squad of armored and heavily armed teachers first go out on to the courts and fields, scan for threats, then setup a perimeter until the activity is over. If anyone approaches, sniper overwatch will assess if they are a threat or can be let through the perimeter.

Trieatalot

It's a C minus world.

Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Trieatalot] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 22 15:56

Post #118 of 118 Views: 252

Trieatalot wrote:

Doru wrote:

SDG wrote:

No actually it's quite nice. It's a neighborhood school and many are taken by their parents in golf carts, walk on the sidewalks or ride their bikes. They leave their bikes at the front of the school and no one uses a bike lock, just lays their bike down. Skateboards, scooters everywhere and nothing locked up. Teachers are all great, energetic and the class size is small and well funded. Each kid has a ipad. They have recess twice a day and parents often come eat in the cafeteria and bring kids lunch. My kid loves the chick fil a I bring him all the time and time we eat up there.

You can have all of this and have the school locked down during the day with each door outside locked. My kids probably don't even know the doors are locked. Each class has a large window to the outside and they can daydream watching the squirrels all they want.

I live in Canada and the schools in my neighborhood have basketball courts / running tracks / soccer fields that are not fenced. How do you defend these?
Do you have a big fence around sport fields?

During sports activities and recess, a squad of armored and heavily armed teachers first go out on to the courts and fields, scan for threats, then setup a perimeter until the activity is over. If anyone approaches, sniper overwatch will assess if they are a threat or can be let through the perimeter.

Man, you're good, that's funny! (its better to laugh than to cry ... )

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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