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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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In my first year of chaplain residency one of our units was focused on the wonderings you and SDG mention - How is unaddressed fear, real or sensationalized, functioning within our society and how does one respond to its impacts? Our focus was more concerned with the acute care health care setting, but the concepts certainly apply. There is a theory in some camps of psychodynamics suggesting that which is not transformed is transferred. How unaddressed and potentially overwhelming fear is transferred is a question that is certainly owed more attention. It will not be a comfortable conversation if people are honest about it because of America's ongoing culture of avoidance. There is much to unpack.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [southpaw] [ In reply to ]
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when we won't pass very basic and effective gun control measures


Honest question. What very basic gun control measures would have stopped yesterday? How do you know they would be effective?
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]
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Cavechild wrote:
when we won't pass very basic and effective gun control measures


Honest question. What very basic gun control measures would have stopped yesterday? How do you know they would be effective?

Raise the age to buy guns to 21.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [CallMeMaybe] [ In reply to ]
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CallMeMaybe wrote:
My kids imagine what it would be like every time they have to do a drill at school. My daughter has anxiety at school, and this year she has a nice teacher who gave her a special code word in case my daughter gets locked outside a classroom during a drill.

There’s a wide ripple effect from the horrific trauma of each school shooting incident.

I did not have to imagine when I was in school either. We had regular nuclear attack drills. We literally practiced curling up into a ball under our desks.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]
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Cavechild wrote:
when we won't pass very basic and effective gun control measures


Honest question. What very basic gun control measures would have stopped yesterday? How do you know they would be effective?

Well the shooter bought two weapons right when he turned 18, so raising the minimum age to purchase a firearm to 21 seems like an easy one.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [gall1972] [ In reply to ]
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gall1972 wrote:
Scary to think what this country would be like if there weren't deterrents in place such as school police, building security protocols, mental health protocols, and the education and encouragement of students to report things they see and hear.

Imagine what's deterred and stopped because of these protocols already in place .... and then it's really scary to think that the above isnt anywhere near enough to stop this chaos.

When my son was 10 we moved to Norway.

He has now been 3 1/2 years at a Norwegian school.

Number of lock down drills: 0
Number of school shootings in Norway: 0

He said yesterday he is glad he is no longer at an American school.

Imagine that.........
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [southpaw] [ In reply to ]
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southpaw wrote:
Cavechild wrote:
when we won't pass very basic and effective gun control measures


Honest question. What very basic gun control measures would have stopped yesterday? How do you know they would be effective?


Well the shooter bought two weapons right when he turned 18, so raising the minimum age to purchase a firearm to 21 seems like an easy one.

That's just the most obvious one.

Waiting period may have given him a chance to reconsider. Conservatives seem to like this strategy for abortions.

Limit and track how much ammo you can buy, like we do Sudafed. It would raise a red flag and he wouldn't have had 400 rounds of ammo.

Requiring a gun license may have provided another opportunity to raise a red flag.

Get rid of 30 round magazines, or at least make them harder to get.

Gun regulations can work. We should all be thankful he didn't have access to a 600 round per minute Uzi
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Thom] [ In reply to ]
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Oh there are many fairly easy things we can do. There's not one thing that will fix the problem, but instead multiple things that work together.

You brought up abortions. Generally I don't like comparing unrelated things, but it is insane that the same state that wants to ban abortions doesn't do a single damn thing when children are murdered by firearms.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [southpaw] [ In reply to ]
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southpaw wrote:
Oh there are many fairly easy things we can do. There's not one thing that will fix the problem, but instead multiple things that work together.

You brought up abortions. Generally I don't like comparing unrelated things, but it is insane that the same state that wants to ban abortions doesn't do a single damn thing when children are murdered by firearms.

Pro-life they say.

Suffer Well.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [jmh] [ In reply to ]
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The American Taliban are wrong on so many issues to the extreme. Dems can get carried away too at times.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Thom] [ In reply to ]
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Limit and track how much ammo you can buy, like we do Sudafed. It would raise a red flag and he wouldn't have had 400 rounds of ammo.


This is one of those ones that show's a complete lack of understanding of the gun culture and would only inconvenience gun owners. When I go to the range, I regularly shoot off hundreds of rounds. So they would be tracking pretty much everyone who shoots regularly.


A good analogy would be to stop drunk driving, we would limit and track how much alcohol you can buy.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]
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Cavechild wrote:
This is one of those ones that show's a complete lack of understanding of the gun culture and would only inconvenience gun owners. When I go to the range, I regularly shoot off hundreds of rounds. So they would be tracking pretty much everyone who shoots regularly.


Damn, that's a lot of rounds. What kind of ammo exactly? You must be well off because these days that's kinda expensive.

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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]
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Cavechild wrote:
Limit and track how much ammo you can buy, like we do Sudafed. It would raise a red flag and he wouldn't have had 400 rounds of ammo.


This is one of those ones that show's a complete lack of understanding of the gun culture and would only inconvenience gun owners. When I go to the range, I regularly shoot off hundreds of rounds. So they would be tracking pretty much everyone who shoots regularly.


A good analogy would be to stop drunk driving, we would limit and track how much alcohol you can buy.

Then what's your idea? Do you want to be a good and responsible steward of the culture you are so enthusiastically apart of?
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]
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Cavechild wrote:
Limit and track how much ammo you can buy, like we do Sudafed. It would raise a red flag and he wouldn't have had 400 rounds of ammo.


This is one of those ones that show's a complete lack of understanding of the gun culture and would only inconvenience gun owners. When I go to the range, I regularly shoot off hundreds of rounds. So they would be tracking pretty much everyone who shoots regularly.

A good analogy would be to stop drunk driving, we would limit and track how much alcohol you can buy.

I'm sorry you would be inconvenienced. I'm inconvenienced when I buy Sudafed. I'm ok with that.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Damn, that's a lot of rounds. What kind of ammo exactly?
22

You must be well off because these days that's kinda expensive.
I am, and it's gotten worse. It's why I shoot 22 pistol. I only need to put holes in paper. I don't have the gun for protection. I joke if someone broke into my house and I needed my gun, I would need about 10 minutes warning to get everything together.
Years ago I had a coworker take me to the range, and I found the focus of target shooting quite relaxing.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]
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Cavechild wrote:
when we won't pass very basic and effective gun control measures


Honest question. What very basic gun control measures would have stopped yesterday? How do you know they would be effective?

At a minimum 3 day waiting period, I would prefer 7 with a strict background check.

I have issues with raising the age to 21 just as I do with the drinking age being 21. If you want to raise the age to enter the armed forces to 21 then I'm open to that but otherwise, for me, it's a non-starter.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Thom] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sorry you would be inconvenienced. I'm inconvenienced when I buy Sudafed. I'm ok with that.


Remember the part about effective? Good thing that Sudafed law stopped the drug problem in America. I'm sure if this guy was limited to 100 rounds a day he wouldn't have just gone back the next day.

It's what scares me when people say common sense laws. Generally speaking, the people that say that lack common sense.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [jmh] [ In reply to ]
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jmh wrote:
SDG wrote:

Fair enough but I don't think open carry and concealed carry (i agree they are dumb) are relevant when it comes to why teenage guys are turning into psychotic animals and killing kids. They could get guns in the 70's and 80s just as easy. Most everyone I knew had a dad or grandpa with tons of guns in closets, gun cabinets or laying around the house. Not a one was ever used to kill someone.


Any idea on what's different about guns in the 70's and 80's that were easy to get and were in every house you knew and those available today?

By the way people talk about gun racks in trucks you would think these guys were carrying some high capacity gun in their trucks when most, if not all of them were single shot rifles with maybe an ability to hold 6 to 12 bullets.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]
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Cavechild wrote:
I'm sorry you would be inconvenienced. I'm inconvenienced when I buy Sudafed. I'm ok with that.


Remember the part about effective? Good thing that Sudafed law stopped the drug problem in America. I'm sure if this guy was limited to 100 rounds a day he wouldn't have just gone back the next day.

It's what scares me when people say common sense laws. Generally speaking, the people that say that lack common sense.

Why should he be able to buy 100 rounds a day? If you want to use that amount of ammo, purchase it to use at a gun range. If someone keeps returning day after day, you don't think that might send alarm bells ringing, especially if a background check were required each time?

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Bretom] [ In reply to ]
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Bretom wrote:
Replying to last.

I have 2 kids in public school, and a third that’ll go. We couldn’t afford ventilators in a global airborne pandemic, can’t afford enough teachers, can’t afford basic supplies. The idea that we’ll find funds to hire highly effective security guards and “harden” our schools (subtly, you understand, not like a prison), is laughable. It will never happen. Even if it did, 2 or 3 LEOs engaged this shooter and couldn’t stop him accessing the school. As many other instances have show, even if there is a good (and very brave, you often don’t get both) guy with a gun he’s often ineffective. Passing gun control legislation is highly unlikely, having a surfeit of funds in public education budgets is even less likely.

But this is my bigger point. I don’t want hardened schools. I don’t want bullet proof glass even if it’s indistinguishable from regular glass. I don’t want armed guards even if the kids don’t see them. I flat don’t want to live in a society where defending myself and my children from potential acts of mass murder becomes a rational thing to think about and invest resources in, beyond the sort of precautions I take to avoid getting hit by lightning.

I find it quite odd your list of things we could not afford yet magically we have Billions to send to Ukraine.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]
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Cavechild wrote:
I'm sorry you would be inconvenienced. I'm inconvenienced when I buy Sudafed. I'm ok with that.


Remember the part about effective? Good thing that Sudafed law stopped the drug problem in America. I'm sure if this guy was limited to 100 rounds a day he wouldn't have just gone back the next day.

It's what scares me when people say common sense laws. Generally speaking, the people that say that lack common sense.

You claimed to be asking an honest question but are just arguing with every suggestion being made. Suggestions that have been shown to reduce gun violence in every other developed country in the world. You don't really seem interested in honest conversation.

You asked specifically about what would have stopped this event. You ignored the repeated suggestion that an higher age limit would do just that.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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Why should he be able to buy 100 rounds a day? If you want to use that amount of ammo, purchase it to use at a gun range.
So you shouldn't be able to buy 100 rounds at a gun store, but you can buy it at a gun store that also has a range. Hmmmm let me think that could work! Oh wait, one could just leave with the ammo. Or is the plan to buy them one at a time and verify they are used? Let me guess to prevent the bad guy with a gun from buying them and leaving, you're going to rely on a good guy with a gun.

If someone keeps returning day after day, you don't think that might send alarm bells ringing, especially if a background check were required each time? As I said. So they would be having alarm bells ringing constantly and doing background checks all the time. The FBI can't keep up on the background checks when you buy guns. Now you want to add the 100X more checks? In order to enact common sense laws, one first needs common sense.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]
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Cavechild wrote:
Why should he be able to buy 100 rounds a day? If you want to use that amount of ammo, purchase it to use at a gun range.
So you shouldn't be able to buy 100 rounds at a gun store, but you can buy it at a gun store that also has a range. Hmmmm let me think that could work! Oh wait, one could just leave with the ammo. Or is the plan to buy them one at a time and verify they are used? Let me guess to prevent the bad guy with a gun from buying them and leaving, you're going to rely on a good guy with a gun.

If someone keeps returning day after day, you don't think that might send alarm bells ringing, especially if a background check were required each time? As I said. So they would be having alarm bells ringing constantly and doing background checks all the time. The FBI can't keep up on the background checks when you buy guns. Now you want to add the 100X more checks? In order to enact common sense laws, one first needs common sense.

You really have no critical thinking skills do you? The ammo you buy at the range is used at the range, you don’t take it home. It would be a simple registry your name is entered in and updates as you buy. Someone comes in consistently, they would be flagged, it’s not that hard. If they allowed a national registry, the FBI background checks would not be as difficult.

But go ahead, we can’t solve problems if we don’t look for solutions. It is easier if you keep your head buried in the sand as if there isn’t a problem.

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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You really have no critical thinking skills do you?


Ummm. The ammo you buy at the range is used at the range, you don’t take it home. Since I'm struggling with the few times I ran out of ammo at the range and was having enough fun to justify paying their huge mark-up. Amazingly the ammo I had left didn't disappear when I left with it. When I went back the following week, it still worked too.


Now I'm sure a person about to shoot up a school is going to go to the range. Buy 500 rounds and when they see the sign saying Ammo Purchased Here Cannot Leave. That's going to stop them. Damn. Maybe we should put a similar sign outside of schools. You Can Only Shoot Kids With Ammo Purchased at This School. And get this, Don't actually sell ammo at the school. Damn. We solved it!


People without common sense really shouldn't propose common sense laws.
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Re: Shootings - Imagine what it'd be like [Cavechild] [ In reply to ]
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Cavechild wrote:
People without common sense really shouldn't propose common sense laws.

Since you seem to be the gatekeeper of common sense, what do you propose?

Suffer Well.
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