I just upgraded to a Kickr Core from a wheel-on smart trainer. I love it! Less to mess with, way quieter, more accurate than my other one. I can run Zwift on my phone, ipad, or apple TV, which is convenient if my son needs to use one of those.

My experience is limited, but I bought a used H1 for my wife recently and I was surprised by how quiet it is. In DC Rainmaker's reviews, he mentions the H1 is very loud compared to the H2 and H3, so i expected it to be as loud as our older wheel-on CycleOps Powersync. It's way quieter than that. I think i paid $600 for a gently used one, and it's been great for her and me both. She likes it because it rides nice (heavy flywheel) and I like it because the house isn't as loud when she rides it. She doesn't use erg mode, just rouvy.


I don't know anything about the Suito, so i can't comment on that specifically. But, to me the two generation old H1 direct drive trainer was worth the price to upgrade.

If you're riding more than 1x/wk indoors on it, and plan on long-term use (like years) it's worth it to get a good DD trainer and computer to drive Zwift well.

Yes, it's a bit up an up front outlay, but you can use it for years.

I am still using a gen-1 Kickr, which is arguably the least accurate of them all (power drift as it warms up, luckily I monitor power with Favero pedals so I can work with it) and it's been functionally bulletproof since 2014 when I got it. (Gawd, I can't believe it's been 7 years already!)

My wife got me a fancy Macbook pro to run Zwift, but you can use any other PC or apple TV.

Zwift running well with a good trainer is awesome. Seriously, so good that as much as I adore riding and training outdoors, I will often pick a large Zwift fondo or group event/ride because it's so much fun to ride and compete against other similar riders and not deal with traffic.

I wouldn't worry too much about buying now. There will always be a "new" thing coming... but trainers often have "refreshes" more than totally new architecture.

I went from a Computrainer to a Neo2t... it felt like a pretty big upgrade. Not having to deal with changing wheels, warming up the roller, etc is pretty nice. Not life changing, but definitely an upgrade.

Evangelion quote, nice.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

I recently upgraded from a Powersync (wheel on) to a direct drive Neo 2T. The difference is noticeable between wheel on vs direct drive, but not massive, especially if you already have a power source that's accurate.

I personally really dislike erg mode and don't understand why people like it so much. I've tried it a few times and feel like I'm just fighting the trainer the whole time as it tries to lock me into a specific number, and I find I'm not as mentally engaged in the workout with erg mode. I prefer to train to ranges and allow a bit of variability based on how I'm feeling vs being locked into specific numbers. Plus, you have to hold power on your own on race day so I think the best way to train is to practice holding power on your own.

I think you would probably find the upgrade worth it, mostly because you'll have a current trainer that can connect easier which will make the workout set up process much quicker. And you may like erg mode.

I had a kickr core for two weeks before returning. It's cool (especially how it reacts in Zwift) and I loved how quiet it was, but I didn't feel like I got anything out of it that I didn't get with my old fluid trainer. I also only ride on the trainer when I have to so it wouldn't receive the use that others on this forum would get out of it.

I really like riding routes in Tacx, BigRingVR, Rouvy, etc. and sometimes Zwift and I'm in WI so I do all my riding indoors for a few months. If you don't like routes, I'm not sure there's much to be gained. Sometimes I feel like digging out my old fluid trainer for workouts. I simulate an incline to add resistance for workouts, but it makes things a little more complicated than a fluid trainer.

+1 here for going direct drive smart trainer. I tried a wheel on that failed and I returned at no cost to me. I didn't like the pfuffing around of the wheel/tires and tensioning.

I just find smart trainers more engaging than a dumb trainer. If you have a spot in training for some Z2 or tempo instead of rote intervals, having a smart trainer really is more engaging to crank out a 2 or 3 hour long indoors ride. I would shoot myself in the face before doing 3 hours of Z2 on a fluid trainer. I get that people watch movies and stuff, but to me that's kind of ruining the experience of two different things instead of optimizing the experience of one thing. I either want to enjoy riding my bike OR enjoy my movie, not compromise on both.

In general, getting your setup as pleasing and rapid to jump on as possible maximizes your training potential. Things like being able to leave everything setup and ready at all times.

I've had a Suito for about 3 months, using it about 5 x a week. It works great. No complaints or issues.

Thanks for that input. Im looking around at forums and what not and all I see are issues. Its nice to get some positive feedback. I think thats another worry of mine. If I get it and it starts to flake out vs the old trainer which just seems to run.

"Why did you spend $800 on a trainer that doesn't work?"

it seems like most of the issues have been resolved but I see lots of calibration and cadence/power spikes listed.

Also just a general question. If you had power pedals would you use those for power/cadence or still use the trainer? Any benefit one way or the other?

thanks

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God's in his heaven, alls right with the world -Nerv

Same. I can't believe that I put up with the wheel-on smart trainer for as long as I did. Training has been much more enjoyable/less frustrating with the recently purchased Kickr Core.

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Janyne

Depends. If you use the trainer a lot (I ride indoors probably 80% of the time) then it’s absolutely worth it. I’ve had a kicker for 4 years and have used the absolute hell out of it. Phenomenal training tool. If you ride indoors a good bit then you’ll 100% get your return on investment. FWIW I run Zwift on Apple TV with my kicker. Works awesome.

I have power pedals, but keep them turned off while on the trainer. I haven't compared the power levels between the trainer and pedals, but others have an it is negligible difference. On the advice of DC Rainmaker I believe in ERG mode I put the chain on the small front ring and a middling rear.

I had a kickr core for two weeks before returning. It's cool (especially how it reacts in Zwift) and I loved how quiet it was, but I didn't feel like I got anything out of it that I didn't get with my old fluid trainer. I also only ride on the trainer when I have to so it wouldn't receive the use that others on this forum would get out of it.


The alternative and outlier view.

First - the direct drive trainers, ARE better. But "better" here, really means how they interact with other technology and platforms and really here, it's all about Zwift. If you use Zwift a lot, you are racing on Zwift, are doing a lot of specific training on Zwift, then the direct drive trainers are the way to go.

But if you are not - if you are self motivated. If you have several bench-mark workouts and sessions that you know how you are doing. If you are not on Power, and use Heart Rate or PE - then, yes, a basic trainer will do just fine for you.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Buy the trainer and get an apple tv. A lot cheaper than a new laptop

I would continue to use the pedals for power. That will keep your numbers consistent between your prior data and your indoor and outdoor rides. I'm not sure what the accuracy of the Suito is, but your pedals might be a bit more accurate too.

fwiw, all the direct mount trainers, bar the Neo, are belt drive not direct drive.

In a word, yes. Going from an old wheel-on trainer (not smart though) to a Saris H3 has been a complete game changer. Zwift finally makes sense and is awesome now. The feel of the direct-drive trainer with a flywheel is much more realistic than a wheel-on trainer and it is super quiet. And yes, erg mode is a big deal. It's awesome for structured workouts where you just want to get the work done as efficiently as possible and don't want to focus on maintaining a specific power target (although that is an important skill too).

i'm going to agree but from the opposite direction. i have an oooold, simple (mag?) wheel-on trainer. and an old, simple tri bike (alu soloist from ~2004!).

so: for me to get even simple metrics like cadence and indoor speed, i'd need to buy some new garmin sensors. i don't have power, either, so buying a meter would be a major outlay. buy a smart trainer and i get all that measured in one place, and suddenly a lot more data from my training. i don't mind training with that data and racing by RPE, by the way. i'm sort of indifferent to things like zwift - haven't ever tried them, and maybe i'll love them, but virtual group rides and races aren't really my cup of tea.

i will upgrade my tri bike one of these days, and that may include adding a power meter and so on. but for now that's probably a couple of years away.

in addition to all that, i live in an apartment and have a 3-year-old and a 1-year-old, so . . . a quieter trainer makes a lot of sense.

so for me, i think a smart trainer might be worth it purely from the training and data POV, even if i never get into zwift. the smart trainer ticks a handful of boxes for me.

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I recently switched from an iPhone 6 to the new iPhone 12. The Apple lady promised it'd be a night-and-day difference. For me it hasn't been, at all. The thing uses my face to unlock rather than my finger. Once unlocked, the user experience seems basically identical.

I wonder if upgrading from my current Saris wheel-on, dumb trainer would be similarly underwhelming. I've got power and cadence already via the Powertap already on the bike, and they are plenty consistent and reliable. Just not sure how much added value there would be (for me) from things like more realistic feel and quieter operation. But I've been thinking about it more and more recently, now that I'm Zwifting 4-5x a week (I'm on one of their structured training plans, no group rides or races currently, or likely ever).

Same. I went from a 6 to a 12 and other than it being a little faster and slightly bigger, I didn't notice much difference.

I trained for years with a Powertap and a fluid trainer. I got a Powersync a few years ago and am on a Neo 2T right now. I do think the difference from a fluid trainer on Zwift (or other platforms with real routes, which is my preference) to a smart trainer is huge. It's a much bigger change than going from an iphone 6 to a 12. I think smart trainers are more fun, but they are more complex and tend to have more issues. And you can have software and/or connection issues. Sometimes I miss the simplicity of my fluid trainer, but apparently not enough to ever actually dig it out and ride it.

I'm kind of with you on this. I have Zwift, a power meter, KK Road Machine fluid trainer, iPad, etc...

I guess the change in resistance if you're just riding around on the routes is interesting; however, I'm usually doing workouts and trying to hit specific numbers so I don't care whether I'm going up or down a hill. The simplicity of using ERG mode for intervals "might" be nice. When racing, I pay attention to the grade and other racers so I know when to apply more power. The convenience factor is also nice but is it $800+ nice...to me, no.

I don't disagree about the simplicity of the non-smart trainers; heck, I even sometimes such set my Kickr on slope mode and watch shows while riding z2.

The Smart features of the trainer do become very fun and interesting with Zwift though, with the hill simulations, and yes, erg mode when it's not used ALL the time. (I typically engage erg only for my set intervals, but ride free on the rest.)

Are you non-smart advocates doing group rides on zwift with your Tacx Neos, etc? If you're not, that would make a lot of sense why you're not missing much.

Yup. Apple TV and Zwift is such a cost effective combo.

I won't speak for others, but I'm doing 100% structured workouts. At all times I'm Zwifting, I'm aiming to maintain X watts at Y cadence for Z minutes. I use Zwift the same way I used TrainerRoad, and I'm mostly oblivious to a lot of what's going on within the game (other riders, scenery, grade changes, draft, MPH etc.). I can obviously see those things constantly changing, and it's sort of a nice diversion I suppose, but it doesn't really impact what I'm doing.

Naturally in that workout context, having a smart trainer varying my resistance mid-interval to simulate an actual ride would be counterproductive.

Now whether I'm missing anything by not having an ERG mode, I can't say. Never tried it. I do know that as it is, I'm free to increase or decrease either watts or cadence above or below the interval targets at my discretion, depending on how I'm feeling at that moment. As I understand it, that would not be the case if I was in ERG mode.

I can definitely see how a free ride or group ride might be pretty boring and monotonous on a dumb trainer.

Still, if you are using Zwift, the smart trainer is controlling incline for you for variety. I find that very useful and immersive for Zwifting and indoor riding in general, even if I still do prefer doing hard intervals on flat or fixed inclines for consistency.

Makes a big difference in races or group rides where you can really feel the hurt throwdowns on the climbs.

I started with ERG mode for intervals but now switch it off for the main intervals and free ride them. I don't have any trouble holding power steady but prefer being able to easily raise or lower power depending on how I feel. Over time the power naturally goes up. You can also bump the power during an ERG interval on zwift but I don't find any benefit over free riding with constant resistance.

Hey congrats on daily training! I think consistency is what it's all about.

I just got a smart trainer (Kickr Core) about 4/5 months ago and my number of rides indoors has dramatically increased and my total winter rides as well since I kept my bike setup on the trainer. Normally I would miss a day or two here and there because of bad weather or some type of excuse but I really found things fun and easy when my smart trainer was setup. When I had a new TV series I wanted to continue watching, I actually found myself looking forward to watching just to find out what happened next for what I was watching!


I agree with @burnthesheep that when my setup was ready I found myself more likely to end up on the bike. Honestly it sounds like the top priority might be a computer upgrade, but I think a DD trainer will also make things so much better for training everyday.

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Hustle City is a story-driven, cycling game that rewards fitness, creativity and nerves of steel. Apply to test the beta @ http://ridehustlecity.com

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I originally used Zwift with virtual power and my Kurt kinetic Road Machine "dumb" trainer. It's one of the best trainers to use for virtual power and that worked well for a couple of years. Then I got a power meter and used that for Zwift, still on the same trainer, for another year and a half. Then, a year ago, I got a Tacx Neo 2T.

My feelings on the alternatives are as follows, and I'm sure many will disagree, especially regarding ERG mode.

A good dumb trainer can feel alright and paired with a power meter (dual sided crank/pedal, spider or hub, NOT a single sided guesstimator) is a perfectly good option. Wheel on trainers can slip and are less smooth and responsive than direct drive but if set up carefully they can work well enough, especially for steady state efforts. Less good for racing.
A good smart trainer gives the option of ERG mode and also the benefits of terrain feedback (increased resistance when climbing and vice versa). I don't like ERG mode and almost never use it. I give it another go every so often and inevitably reaffirm my dislike for it except for very easy efforts below about 65% FTP.

I wanted something quiet and have been happy with the Neo but couldn't comment on how the Suito compares.

If you have dual sided pedals, then the main thing you need is probably better hardware to run Zwift. I don't regard single sided measurement as anything more than a rough guesstimate. Most people don't have consistent 50/50 power balance from each leg so a single sided device is based on a false assumption. Also that balance can vary significantly depending on position, fatigue, intensity, and other factors. So it's not only inaccurate but also likely inconsistent. That's not to say the data from single sided devices is useless, but the data produced should be kept in context.
Zwift doesn't need a whole lot of computing power and even a mid range laptop from several years ago should manage respectably well. If the budget is tight and you aren't too bothered about terrain feedback and ERG mode, I'd advise you to just worry about getting Zwift running better for now. Having said all that: I am very happy with my current setup and would rather not go back, but I consider a reliable power source and a convenient and reliable platform for Zwift to be the priorities.

First off I just want to say thanks to everyone who chimed in. A lot of really good comments and perspectives which is what I was hoping for.

I feel like im in a "crap or get off the pot" moment and I'm hovering. I have almost pushed buy a half dozen times since starting this thread. But I think I have better expectations now. The jury seems pretty mixed on erg mode so I'm less excited about that now than I was previously. The biggest benefits I see are the noise level and convenience of not having to muck with my rear wheel which probably sounds silly but I have had two wheel issues in the past 6 months, 1 flat tube that I still need to fix on my tri bike and the tire on my road bike separated entirely from the casing.

I had not thought about the possibility of increased performance due to not having a rear wheel slipping and moving around. I really enjoy Zwift which is funny b/c I didn't think I would. The trainer I have is on loan from a friend who got a kickr and couldn't sell the axiom so he let me borrow it indefinitely. It literally sat in my basement unused for over a year then covid hit and I decided to dust it off and see what all the fuss was about . 9 months later and I rode more this past year than I have in a long time. Strava says I rode over 2200 miles and I have to imagine about 2000 of those were virtual. I also have enjoyed racing. I used to race Crits as a junior but as I have gotten older Crits just scare me to death. Too many newbs who cant hold a line and it just takes one twitch from an inexperienced rider and your down and in the hospital with a trashed bike. I have been really surprised at how closely crit style racing in Zwift feels like the real thing to me so the thought of getting any benefit or helping to level the field is pretty appealing.

The most compelling argument I have thought is that my wife is ok with me getting one now and if I wait that might not be the case in a year or so.

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God's in his heaven, alls right with the world -Nerv

Given you like racing, it's probably worth mentioning that terrain feedback can be very useful in alerting you to the fact you've hit a gradient before you might have become aware of it otherwise if you're not paying close attention. I certainly find that useful in group rides and races.

The Neo is a smart trainer. If I'm doing workouts, I use slope mode to give the Neo a little more resistance and basically ride it like a fluid trainer. I don't like erg mode, so I never use it. I sometimes do intervals while riding a course so I have to deal with inclines and declines like riding outdoors. For the rest of my rides, I use it to ride courses and simulate the terrain, which really helps pass the time on easier, longer endurance rides. I get bored easily on Zwift and don't use it much. Every route feels the same to me and I find the group rides annoying (I haven't done one in a few years so maybe I should try one again, although I did drop in with a pacer last week and didn't enjoy it). I mostly ride real routes on Tacx or BigRingVR. Sometimes I ride Zwift, but that's usually to ride with friends who use it.

I wouldn't say I'm a non-smart advocate. I think the main benefit of smart trainers is that they're more entertaining and give you more options, so from a training perspective you don't really need a smart trainer. A fluid trainer and power meter will get you to the same place. I think a lot of people actually miss out on some of the benefits of smart trainers because they live in erg mode. What I found boring about a fluid trainer was that I could just hop on and ride 2 hours at a steady power and never shift. What makes the smart trainer more fun for me is that I can't do that when riding routes. I have to react to grade changes and shift and maybe stand up sometimes to climb. It keeps me engaged. The Neo has a motor to simulate downhills and it also simulates road feel like cobbles, gravel, the wooden bridges on Zwift, etc. so that makes routes a little more entertaining.

I have a wahoo kickr that I upgraded to from a cycleops fluid2. I was much like you and didn’t see the need for such an expensive trainer. After the fact it was a worthwhile upgrade- and I don’t even do zwift or anything. It’s just a much better road feel and I like the ability to use erg/ adjust ramp etc.

Based on what you are saying on how you use the trainer and Zwift I am going to say 100% unequivocally get the Suito!, you will absolutely not regret it. Yes I agree $800 is a fair amount of money but once you get it you will realize that you wished you had bought it sooner.
I like you was on the fence for a long time, I finely bought a DD trainer and my only regret is that I didn't drop the coin 2-3 years sooner, and it has nothing to do with erg mode, while I do use it occasionally for specific intervals, I am mostly in the non erg mode camp.
But I have gotten deeply into group rides and races and have also ended up riding much more then before, the ability to be able to jump on a 100k group ride is awesome, and on the Direct drive it really almost feels like the real thing.
I spent many years on a computrainer and then a PowerBeam, so I have experience with interactive wheel on trainers and this experience in my opinion just blows these out of the water, get it!.
Since it seems like you already have a iPad you are all set you won't need to get any new computer hardware or anything.

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http://www.instagram.com/cyclewise

Are you using a trainer tire? If not, you should.

When I pulled out my trainer this year, I was too lazy to switch out the tire. I didn't have any failures like you're describing, but I quickly had a black streak of rubber on the carpet behind my bike/trainer. That didn't go over well. Also a lot of wheel slippage.

I did get a trainer tire for my road bike. My tri bike however is 650c and I can not find a trainer tire that size.

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God's in his heaven, alls right with the world -Nerv

Speaking to only the question of upgrading to direct drive, I 100% recommend it.
For reference I have the Saris H2 and have had it for 2 years.

High points

• No wheel slippage.
• Typically handles higher power intervals better.
• Set it and forget it. Attach bike and you are going.
• Less need for adjustments - my wheel on smart trainer seemed to need adjustments every time I put it back on and never felt the same each time. Direct drive you lock it on and you're ready.
• The flywheel provides a super smooth ride.
• ERG handles like a boss.
• The closest to riding on the road of any trainer I have used (classic fluid, smart magnetic wheel on and now direct drive).
• Handles huge jumps in power for speed or high rpm sets.
• Seems more accurate with power and speed.
• Feels solid to ride on. Wheel on trainers always felt a little wobbly and not as secure. I jump on the bike on my direct drive and it's rock solid.

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Ryan
http://www.SetThePaceTriathlon.com
http://www.TriathlonTrainingDaddy.com
I got plans - https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...dotcom#trainingplans

For me - switching from a dumb trainer to a smart trainer made a night and day difference in indoor riding - so much so that I went from using it only when absolutely needed to riding nearly all indoors.

I used to despise indoor riding, and only did it when absolutely necessary. I then graduated to using it just for workouts, but it was still awful. Then, in winter 2016-2017 I was training for an ultra triathlon (Ultraman) and knew I'd HAVE to train the majority of time indoors because of safety (light), and just being too cold in the northeast to be outside for 7-8 hour rides. I already was training with power meter pedals. I bought a wheel-on smart trainer and joined Zwift.

Having Zwift mimic the terrain like an outdoor ride kept me interested on rides that weren't workouts- those would have truly been dreaded on the old dumb trainer. Workouts still hurt, but I love using ERG mode to teach muscle memory at certain targets. It also keeps me honest during workouts - and I'm willing to take the hit that ERG doesn't teach you mental training to keep a certain wattage on your own. I enjoy the fun "game" aspect of it with sprints and KOMs, and timed laps, etc.

For super long rides (up to about 7.5 hours on the trainer) - Zwift isn't enough and I tend to watch moves or TV on a separate device.

Since then I've changed over from the Kickr Snap to the Kickr Core. I was able to get a deal on it and went for it. For me, the benefits of the direct drive are: no daily pumping of the tires and connection of the flywheel (saves a minute or two of setup), less wear on the tire (650 wheels dont have trainer tires as options), less "riding through sand" feeling that I'd sometimes get at high resistance, and less tire slippage during sprints and really high inclines. I like the "feel" of direct drive better than the wheel-on one.

I ride indoors 3-4 days a week, and all of it is indoors right now. It's too dark before and after work during the week. When spring comes, I will likely do all rides indoors except my one longer one, and even then I'll wait until that goes over 2 hours. I supposedly have an ironman in late August, if Canada lets US people in.

Well I did it. Just ordered the Elite Suito. I also discovered the DIY rocker plate Facebook group and it looks like I can build a rocker plate for about $100. I just might have to do that.

Thanks again so much for everyones feedback. I love that slowtwitch is still a place where you can get real advice / opinions on tri related things without lots of garbage.

Cheers and happy training!

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God's in his heaven, alls right with the world -Nerv

I had a fluid wheel on trainer that I despised because it was very, very noisy and not terribly stable when I was trying to stand on the pedals. I only used it once or twice and then stuck it in a closet until my wife decided to ride on it while I was at work. Even she quit using it after a while saying that it was hurting her hearing over time.

During the Christmas season before the COVID outbreak REI had a great sale on H3 direct drive trainers. I had just dropped out of remission for my cancer and I knew I would not be able to ride outside much for a while, so I was able to get the boss (aka wife), to agree to the purchase.

I wasn't able to ride much at first, but after the majority of the cancer treatments were done, I started riding and it was a serious game changer. I thought I knew how much fitness I had lost, but the H3 and Zwift really showed me how the truth; it was more than I thought.

Today I am almost where I was before I dropped out of remission, and I will be ahead of that before the riding season begins. I am already better on the hills because hills are hard to come by in my normal riding area and Zwift has a lot of them. I have always wanted to ride some of the more spectacular century rides and I can now envision that happening. I plan on the Assault on Mt. Mitchel AND the Cheaha Challenge (12K and 13K of climbing respectively) in 2022 and I am thinking about going out to CA and CO the following year to try those inclines.

For me, there is no way that a dumb trainer could do what my H3 has done. I look forward to riding on my trainer now, and vary the training each day that I ride to fit my training plan. I don't do the Zwift workouts, I prefer to use the system freestyle, just a ride with the power displayed and then select the route that will give me the workout that I need.

My first century ride in 3 years will be this May, riding on the Natchez Trace, with two more centuries this year if my body will allow. I could not even dream of that without the versatility of a smart trainer and the ability to make realistic riding possible indoors. Even my wife agrees it was a very smart buy, and now wants one for herself so that she can ride with me virtually and simultaneously. So I will be looking to sales on smart trainers pretty soon if they are available.

Dude thanks so much for sharing. My wife had a vicious battle with breast cancer a few years back. She's in remission now too! I had no clue the damage that chemo does to a person. Unless you have been through it or taken care of someone going through it, its hard to comprehend. Thats so awesome that you have gotten so much back. My wife, I call her my primary sponsor instead of the boss, is still struggling with fatigue but is worlds better than she was at the end of treatment. The whole thing really changed both our perspectives. Every day with her is a gift and an opportunity that should not be wasted.

Enjoy your riding and I hope you have many many more centuries and other adventures ahead!

Cheers!

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God's in his heaven, alls right with the world -Nerv

To solve that problem, I got a cheap wheel and extra cassette with a normal tire and used that with my 650c bike. Replace tire as needed, no wear and tear on your usual race wheel/cassette.

How much is this? Apple TV device seems to be around $150 and Isn’t there a monthly subscription cost?

I think you have it backwards. If you already have a powermeter, then I think a basic trainer is more likely to suffice. But, if don’t have power on your bike, then going to direct drive will be much more of an upgrade.

There’s a monthly subscription cost for the Apple TV streaming service. But this doesn’t apply to Zwift. It would just be device cost and Zwift subscription.

So once you buy the Apple TV device you have access to the zwift app and zwift will be on your tv that is connected to the Apple TV device?

Yea. You download the Zwift app onto Apple TV (I think it has to be the Apple TV 4K or newer). The Zwift app is free. You then login to Zwift and start connecting sensors, etc.

Thanks; this does sound like the most simple/cost effective way to get zwift onto something bigger than a phone.

Oh yeah, wheel slippage! I forgot about that. For that reason alone direct drive is a huge advantage. It's a small detail and can be overlooked. nice call out! I also completely agree with this short list of advantages.

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Hustle City is a story-driven, cycling game that rewards fitness, creativity and nerves of steel. Apply to test the beta @ http://ridehustlecity.com

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I would have given the opposite advice. I used a trainer tyre early on with my KK Road Machine, but it was squeakier and slipped more than just using standard road tyres. Perhaps there was some contamination on them but I repeatedly tried to clean them and never managed an improvement, never had that issue in I think 3 years with normal road tyres. So the vast majority of my time on the Road machine was with the 23mm Felt TTR tyres that came with my tri bike and which I'd removed in favour of Conti GP4000SII when i bought it. I also never noticed any significant particulate come off the tyres. The KK resistance roller has an aluminium alloy rolling surface. Perhaps other roller materials, like the elastomer type used by Elite for example, favour trainer specific tyres? I don't know, but for alloy rollers I'd stick with old or unwanted road tyres. More environmentally sound and worked better than the more expensive and wasteful option for me.

Interesting. I sweat a lot, and enough of it drips onto the rear tire that it was causing the problems I described (slippage, rubber streak on the carpeting) with a traditional road tire (Conti Gatorskin). So much so that I had to concoct a "tire tent": a bath towel draped between the bike saddle and an office chair positioned behind the trainer to keep sweat from dripping on the tire.

I later switched out the tire for a Conti HomeTrainer and stopped putting up the "tire tent" before riding. So far, neither problem has resurfaced.

It's been a long time, but I think the tire came with the trainer, so no additional cost or waste is involved in using it.

Actually, the first tyre I ever used on the trainer was a Gatorskin Hardshell. It was rubbish. I think maybe it did shed some bits and it delaminated after just a few hours use.
That's when I got the trainer tyre thinking riad tyres would be destroyed but I later discovered others work great. I suspect the Gastorskins rather inflexible carcass was the main problem.

I've had a Power Tap and a dumb trainer (but a pretty high quality fluid dumb trainer) for a while. I did try out a friend's Kickr last winter, before the lock down, when I was considering changing to a smart setup.

The smart trainer is absolutely, undeniably, more fun -- but to me, it's not 10x more fun. To me, it's not even 2x as much fun; for me it's maybe 50% more fun. I thought about it for a little bit, and decided $800 for less than 2x as much fun wasn't worth it, but maybe your bank account balance is in better shape than mine.

Well it does have a recent $600 deposit courtesy of Uncle Sam...

Smart trainer on its own, no cool software - no extra fun.

Smart trainer plus riding around on zwift or using erg mode - slightly more fun, but not game changer

Smart trainer plus Zwift BIG group rides and well-attended races - GAME CHANGER. I suspect most folks who are like 'meh' about Zwift or smart trainer just haven't taken this dive. It's really that big a difference. I will literally pass on outdoor rides to do these rides they are so fun!

Seriously, if you haven't done a big Zwift fondo with 1000+ riders in it or a big race where you are holding your own in a pack of 10-20 riders and trying as group to pick off the stragglers up ahead, you're missing the best part of the smart trainer. Love attacking on the climbs!

Timely thread for sure. I'm finding the Neo2T just about everywhere (and one place under MSRP), but hesitant to pull the trigger based on the reported bearing issues. Anyone here on one that has had to go through that situation, or are you satisfied with your purchase decision? Or should I hold out for a Kickr once more supply become available?

i asked Tacx about this, and what I got back was, "the incidence," of bearing failure, "is very low." Wahoo is half the slowtwitcher preference, and the other 3 of the "big 4" trainer brands - Tacx, Elite and Saris - make up the other half. but if you go to europe it's flipped, and Tacx is the big dog. this has mushroomed up into a huge market, with smart bike trainers - excluding peloton and non-endemic brands like that - probably around a half-billion dollars at retail. this means Tacx is selling an awful, awful, awful lot of these NEO 2T trainers.

i have asked again, to see if the incidence of bearing failure is small, and we'll see what i hear back. but i think with an industry this size, and with Tacx such a large part of it, if this was as big an issue as tacx faqx is making of it we'd be hearing about it. i suspect we have hundreds, at least, of forum readers here on this trainer, and i don't see dozens of them posting about having experienced this bearing failure. here is everyone's chance to post. failing that, i must take tacx at its word, that this failure incidence is low. that said, i'll report back again when i hear from them again.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Fair point. I don't really like big rides or big group races but I'm sure others do. It makes sense that, like many other things, how you use something determines how much you value it. I use Zwift for training, not for racing.

I'll half agree with this. I had a dumb trainer, and tried Zwift a few years ago. Meh. A little more interesting than just the trainer alone, but still not enough to keep me engaged for more than 20-30 minutes. A few years ago, I got a smart wheel-on trainer, and that was a big improvement. The changes in resistance made it bit more engaging, but it was still loud, wheel would slip during sprints, response and road feel weren't great, limited to 10% slope, etc. So I didn't use it a whole lot more. Last year, I got an Elite Direto X, that was a game changer. Quieter, better response, better slope simulation, and I found myself routinely riding longer than planned (sometimes running late for work!). Even before I tried racing, I had already racked up twice as many miles on Zwift by early summer than I had in the same period outdoors the year before. Racing is fun, but I could still give that up and still enjoy Zwift...

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

.

You are too limited in your Zwift mindset.

Racing isn't for 'racing' - you DON'T have to go all-out for every race - you can enter group rides and fondos etc. where you can just do your intervals in the middle of the group ride and don't worry about the results. It makes intervals WAYYYY more fun than doing them even with erg mode on Zwift solo.

Your first few rides like this you'll almost certainly get caught up in the competitiveness and mess up your workout by racing it, but after you do this week after week, you'll get in the groove. A typical hour workout for me is enter a group ride of about 40k (24mi) usually not a race and of open category (not power category limited). You can ride with small packs for your z1-z2 which is so much more fun than solo, drop off and do your intervals on your own, and then if you're still feeling frisky at the end, throw down some z3-z5 stuff which is also super fun.

I also still do solo structured workouts not in an event - it's actually super easy to enter your workout in the Zwift workout creator. I'll turn off erg mode on z1/z2 but erg it for the hard stuff where I might slack off. The variety is great.

Zwift now has enough well-attended group rides of 1-3 hrs at all time of the day that it's not hard to find such rides. Pre-COVID, it was hit or miss finding well attended group events, but now it's easy. Especially with the TourDeZwift that started this week - 1500 riders on the group ride this morning! Zwift is so much better with the ample other riders around.

FWIW I pretty much never race 'all-out' on Zwift anymore, like full gas all out the whole way as I'd do in a road racing event. Messes up my training with the fatigue load and doesn't fit in the plans I'm using. So just because you don't 'race' doesn't mean you still can't enjoy the racelike atmosphere, and yes, it is a game changer.

Well, originally you said the game changer was large rides and races, but now you're enlarging it to include regular workouts. But the thing is, when I used my friend's Kickr, I wasn't racing; I was doing both (semi-) structured workouts and unstructured riding around workouts. So this sounds pretty much like what you're saying now, and I didn't think it was a game changer.

I already had power on my bike, I already had sensors, I already had an ANT+ stick. I did have to buy a trainer tire (but not a spare cassette) for $35. So, as I said, the fun improvement was less than twice, but $800 is more than twice $35. I still don't see the value proposition for me, but I'm happy you see it for you. Ride on.

I have no idea how extensive the bearing issue is, but Garmin uploaded a video on Nov 2, 2020 to youtube showing how to replace bearings in a Neo which suggests the issue may be a bit bigger than their claim of "very low."

Did you enter actual zwift events? Big ones? If so, then ok, it's not for you.

If you just rode around zwiftr, both structured and unstructured, I'd argue you are missing the best part of zwift (by farrr).

i suspect that if they did not upload the video; that if they said nothing; did nothing; ignored the crosstalk that we see here on this thread; then they'd be criticized for their silence, complacency, and lack of transparency. if you manage a brand in this day and age you can't win for losing. nevertheless, as i said, all those who've had to replace a failed bearing in this unit is free to post here, so we can get a sense for how widespread this problem really is.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Just so I'm sure I understand you, you're saying that although I'm perfectly happy as I am right now and achieving my goals to my own satisfaction, you want me to buy an $800 smart trainer and enter big Zwift events to make you happy?

Yes! Waste your money! Make me happy!

More seriously, I'm obviously trying to point out that you're potentially missing out on the best part of an experience that you may have completely misunderstood in your limited interactions with it. But hey, if you prefer your fluid trainer, go for it. I thought my Kickr without zwift was as good as it got until I started Zwifting the way I do it now, and now I can't even imagine doing those soul-sucking workouts anymore without it.

2 hrs on a trainer near-weekly, even with a TV, just sucks. No way around it. 2 hrs in a Zwift fondo/group ride = fun that I actually look forward to. As said before, I've passed up quite a few nice outdoor rides for them, which is saying a lot, as I really value outdoor rides as I do a lot of indoor stuff already, but if it's a Zwift fondo with 1500 riders, that's a pretty fun experience!

Words matter. I have no idea the extent of this problem, but it’s rather easy for Garmin to claim the issue rate is “low” or “very low” without providing any detail as to what those terms mean. It’s as vague as a wheel manufacturer claiming their wheels are “fast”.

Mine's been just fine!

They may not be reading this thread.

I haven't had bearing issues, and I certainly hope the issue isn't extensive because I own a Neo, but my 6 week old Neo 2T just died today. Garmin is sending me a new resistance unit, which I guess is everything but the freehub and legs. It seems like it would be easier to send me a whole new trainer. They called it a "serviced unit" so then I asked if it was refurbished and they said it is "believed to be new," whatever that means. So now I have to swap parts over to a new partial unit that may or may not be new, which is annoying when you buy the most expensive trainer on the market and it's less than 2 months old.

I was really liking the Neo and some of the features like downhill simulation and real road feel until it died today. Hopefully the replacement is rock solid.

This is why I never sold my KK road machine years ago. I think smart trainers are fun, but I don't trust them enough to own one without keeping a back up fluid trainer.

I was going to upgrade to a Neo2T but now I'm going to wait!

I was also going to sell off my Kickr gen1 (which has been absolutely bulletproof, but does have some power drift as it warms up for the first 45') but now I'm seeing that it's a good idea to have a backup unit since Zwifting/indoor bike is so critical to my workout regiment.

i have, or have had in the past year, 5 smart trainers. 2 x kickr (new kickr and kickr bike); neo bike, saris H2 and H3. and there's an elite direto that i just took out of the box. i can't opine about the direto... yet. but all the others have had a lot of use and abuse, and i haven't had any of them fail. the only problem i've had is that sometimes the H2 forgets how to pair. but actually solved that with a workaround.

i've had one problem with the kickr bike, and that is a dodgy firmware update. i'm investigating that now. mind, i try to get these trainers and bikes to fail. i'm hoping to find the weak link. if i could find it i'd report it to you. and, before you say something i'll regret, these people aren't a partner here. wahoo however is.

this isn't to say stuff fails to fail because i can't get it to fail, yours obviously did, and i can see why you're lasered on it, because you're personally affected and right now. i just don't like to assume otherwise honorable and august brands are lying. i'd rather take them at their word and let them hang themselves if they deserve hanging.

as to tacx users who "may not be reading this thread," i guess i have to chuckle about all the brands - those much smaller than tacx - that've had dozens or even hundreds of posts placed here when the company or the product fails to produce. those who've got chapped hides about a brand or a product have never struck me as having a hard time finding the appropriate thread on this forum on which to lodge their complaint.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I have mixed feelings on them right now. I still think they're great trainers. The accuracy is supposed to be among the best for smart trainers. I used to ride with a Powertap hub on a wheel-on smart trainer, and the numbers I see on the Tacx are right in line with what I expected. I can't compare though since my power meter is in my wheel. Downhill simulation and real road feel are pretty cool. You can feel the wooden bridges on Zwift, and I think it's pretty close to what a wooden bridge would feel like. I also like not having to calibrate. It's a little hard to give a recommendation right after mine died though. Hopefully I just got a bad unit, which can happen with any brand, and everything will be good after the new resistance unit shows up.

I like having a backup trainer, and I figure I probably can't sell that fluid trainer for all that much anyway. I don't think many people are looking for fluid trainers these days.

ETA: While it's hard to say you should go buy one right after mine died, I also wouldn't tell you not to buy one. If the failure rate was above 50%, so that you were more likely to get a bad unit than a good unit, I would imagine it would be well known that there are huge issues with these and I don't think that's the case.

I don't think they're lying. I suspect they don't know. They called it a serviced unit and I asked if that meant it's refurbished. I think the customer service rep asked someone who said "I believe they're new" and then relayed that to me. It's just not very convincing so now I'm wondering if I'm getting a new or refurbished unit. It doesn't help that I bought my girlfriend a garmin for her birthday years ago that had an issue within the first week and they replaced it with a refurbished watch. I suppose in the end it doesn't matter as long as it works, but it's frustrating because I thought I bought the best trainer on the market and now I'm digging out the backup trainer for a few days and may have just paid top dollar for a refurbished unit. Her refurbished replacement watch has been going strong for years without a single issue so there's that.

Someone did a poll on the FB group asking how many people have had a bearing issue and 10% of people said yes. I'm not sure what to make of that number because I think a lot of people join those groups to ask about problems so it's possibly skewed high. Some people probably had a bearing issue after 200 miles of use and some after 10,000 miles. Both may answer yes, but those are two very different scenarios. I suspect the issue isn't as bad as some people make it out to be, but also a bit higher than Garmin wants to admit.

I do all my outdoor rides solo. Last time I rode in a group was probably when the Iron Cowboy rolled through my area on his 50/50/50 thing a few years ago. I showed out for that just to see what it was all about and be a (very small) part of it.

I doubt I'd be into group riding/events/races on Zwift, since I don't seek any of those things out IRL.

Personally I think it's only partially a reproduction of real life, there's more to it than that; and not wanting to ride in groups in real life doesn't mean you wouldn't enjoy the dynamics of riding in groups on Zwift. There's no obligation to interact socially with anyone if that's not your thing - It's not really mine on Zwift. However, group rides and races on Zwift do make it far more engaging and interesting in my opinion. The entire objective of Zwift is surely to provide context for the effort you're making, mostly via visual feedback. Some of that is just the terrain, but group riding adds far more to that.

I'd disagree with you - I'd wager that if you did a Zwift fondo or big group ride (not just a race), you'd find it really fun and interesting. You might think you have to love outdoor group rides to love a Zwift group ride, but it's not the case.

Thanks for all the responses and not letting the thread to devolve into a Wahoo vs Tacx/Garmin debate and distract from the OP's post. With all that said, I saw that Clever Training has/had the Kickr in stock so ordered up one from them. Looking forward to getting the Pain Cave set up and seeing where this all goes. Fingers crossed for no issues!