I won't speak for others, but I'm doing 100% structured workouts. At all times I'm Zwifting, I'm aiming to maintain X watts at Y cadence for Z minutes. I use Zwift the same way I used TrainerRoad, and I'm mostly oblivious to a lot of what's going on within the game (other riders, scenery, grade changes, draft, MPH etc.). I can obviously see those things constantly changing, and it's sort of a nice diversion I suppose, but it doesn't really impact what I'm doing.

Naturally in that workout context, having a smart trainer varying my resistance mid-interval to simulate an actual ride would be counterproductive.

Now whether I'm missing anything by not having an ERG mode, I can't say. Never tried it. I do know that as it is, I'm free to increase or decrease either watts or cadence above or below the interval targets at my discretion, depending on how I'm feeling at that moment. As I understand it, that would not be the case if I was in ERG mode.

I can definitely see how a free ride or group ride might be pretty boring and monotonous on a dumb trainer.

Still, if you are using Zwift, the smart trainer is controlling incline for you for variety. I find that very useful and immersive for Zwifting and indoor riding in general, even if I still do prefer doing hard intervals on flat or fixed inclines for consistency.

Makes a big difference in races or group rides where you can really feel the hurt throwdowns on the climbs.

I started with ERG mode for intervals but now switch it off for the main intervals and free ride them. I don't have any trouble holding power steady but prefer being able to easily raise or lower power depending on how I feel. Over time the power naturally goes up. You can also bump the power during an ERG interval on zwift but I don't find any benefit over free riding with constant resistance.

Hey congrats on daily training! I think consistency is what it's all about.

I just got a smart trainer (Kickr Core) about 4/5 months ago and my number of rides indoors has dramatically increased and my total winter rides as well since I kept my bike setup on the trainer. Normally I would miss a day or two here and there because of bad weather or some type of excuse but I really found things fun and easy when my smart trainer was setup. When I had a new TV series I wanted to continue watching, I actually found myself looking forward to watching just to find out what happened next for what I was watching!


I agree with @burnthesheep that when my setup was ready I found myself more likely to end up on the bike. Honestly it sounds like the top priority might be a computer upgrade, but I think a DD trainer will also make things so much better for training everyday.

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Hustle City is a story-driven, cycling game that rewards fitness, creativity and nerves of steel. Apply to test the beta @ http://ridehustlecity.com

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Instagram @ridehustlecity

I originally used Zwift with virtual power and my Kurt kinetic Road Machine "dumb" trainer. It's one of the best trainers to use for virtual power and that worked well for a couple of years. Then I got a power meter and used that for Zwift, still on the same trainer, for another year and a half. Then, a year ago, I got a Tacx Neo 2T.

My feelings on the alternatives are as follows, and I'm sure many will disagree, especially regarding ERG mode.

A good dumb trainer can feel alright and paired with a power meter (dual sided crank/pedal, spider or hub, NOT a single sided guesstimator) is a perfectly good option. Wheel on trainers can slip and are less smooth and responsive than direct drive but if set up carefully they can work well enough, especially for steady state efforts. Less good for racing.
A good smart trainer gives the option of ERG mode and also the benefits of terrain feedback (increased resistance when climbing and vice versa). I don't like ERG mode and almost never use it. I give it another go every so often and inevitably reaffirm my dislike for it except for very easy efforts below about 65% FTP.

I wanted something quiet and have been happy with the Neo but couldn't comment on how the Suito compares.

If you have dual sided pedals, then the main thing you need is probably better hardware to run Zwift. I don't regard single sided measurement as anything more than a rough guesstimate. Most people don't have consistent 50/50 power balance from each leg so a single sided device is based on a false assumption. Also that balance can vary significantly depending on position, fatigue, intensity, and other factors. So it's not only inaccurate but also likely inconsistent. That's not to say the data from single sided devices is useless, but the data produced should be kept in context.
Zwift doesn't need a whole lot of computing power and even a mid range laptop from several years ago should manage respectably well. If the budget is tight and you aren't too bothered about terrain feedback and ERG mode, I'd advise you to just worry about getting Zwift running better for now. Having said all that: I am very happy with my current setup and would rather not go back, but I consider a reliable power source and a convenient and reliable platform for Zwift to be the priorities.

First off I just want to say thanks to everyone who chimed in. A lot of really good comments and perspectives which is what I was hoping for.

I feel like im in a "crap or get off the pot" moment and I'm hovering. I have almost pushed buy a half dozen times since starting this thread. But I think I have better expectations now. The jury seems pretty mixed on erg mode so I'm less excited about that now than I was previously. The biggest benefits I see are the noise level and convenience of not having to muck with my rear wheel which probably sounds silly but I have had two wheel issues in the past 6 months, 1 flat tube that I still need to fix on my tri bike and the tire on my road bike separated entirely from the casing.

I had not thought about the possibility of increased performance due to not having a rear wheel slipping and moving around. I really enjoy Zwift which is funny b/c I didn't think I would. The trainer I have is on loan from a friend who got a kickr and couldn't sell the axiom so he let me borrow it indefinitely. It literally sat in my basement unused for over a year then covid hit and I decided to dust it off and see what all the fuss was about . 9 months later and I rode more this past year than I have in a long time. Strava says I rode over 2200 miles and I have to imagine about 2000 of those were virtual. I also have enjoyed racing. I used to race Crits as a junior but as I have gotten older Crits just scare me to death. Too many newbs who cant hold a line and it just takes one twitch from an inexperienced rider and your down and in the hospital with a trashed bike. I have been really surprised at how closely crit style racing in Zwift feels like the real thing to me so the thought of getting any benefit or helping to level the field is pretty appealing.

The most compelling argument I have thought is that my wife is ok with me getting one now and if I wait that might not be the case in a year or so.

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God's in his heaven, alls right with the world -Nerv

Given you like racing, it's probably worth mentioning that terrain feedback can be very useful in alerting you to the fact you've hit a gradient before you might have become aware of it otherwise if you're not paying close attention. I certainly find that useful in group rides and races.

The Neo is a smart trainer. If I'm doing workouts, I use slope mode to give the Neo a little more resistance and basically ride it like a fluid trainer. I don't like erg mode, so I never use it. I sometimes do intervals while riding a course so I have to deal with inclines and declines like riding outdoors. For the rest of my rides, I use it to ride courses and simulate the terrain, which really helps pass the time on easier, longer endurance rides. I get bored easily on Zwift and don't use it much. Every route feels the same to me and I find the group rides annoying (I haven't done one in a few years so maybe I should try one again, although I did drop in with a pacer last week and didn't enjoy it). I mostly ride real routes on Tacx or BigRingVR. Sometimes I ride Zwift, but that's usually to ride with friends who use it.

I wouldn't say I'm a non-smart advocate. I think the main benefit of smart trainers is that they're more entertaining and give you more options, so from a training perspective you don't really need a smart trainer. A fluid trainer and power meter will get you to the same place. I think a lot of people actually miss out on some of the benefits of smart trainers because they live in erg mode. What I found boring about a fluid trainer was that I could just hop on and ride 2 hours at a steady power and never shift. What makes the smart trainer more fun for me is that I can't do that when riding routes. I have to react to grade changes and shift and maybe stand up sometimes to climb. It keeps me engaged. The Neo has a motor to simulate downhills and it also simulates road feel like cobbles, gravel, the wooden bridges on Zwift, etc. so that makes routes a little more entertaining.

I have a wahoo kickr that I upgraded to from a cycleops fluid2. I was much like you and didn’t see the need for such an expensive trainer. After the fact it was a worthwhile upgrade- and I don’t even do zwift or anything. It’s just a much better road feel and I like the ability to use erg/ adjust ramp etc.

Based on what you are saying on how you use the trainer and Zwift I am going to say 100% unequivocally get the Suito!, you will absolutely not regret it. Yes I agree $800 is a fair amount of money but once you get it you will realize that you wished you had bought it sooner.
I like you was on the fence for a long time, I finely bought a DD trainer and my only regret is that I didn't drop the coin 2-3 years sooner, and it has nothing to do with erg mode, while I do use it occasionally for specific intervals, I am mostly in the non erg mode camp.
But I have gotten deeply into group rides and races and have also ended up riding much more then before, the ability to be able to jump on a 100k group ride is awesome, and on the Direct drive it really almost feels like the real thing.
I spent many years on a computrainer and then a PowerBeam, so I have experience with interactive wheel on trainers and this experience in my opinion just blows these out of the water, get it!.
Since it seems like you already have a iPad you are all set you won't need to get any new computer hardware or anything.

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http://www.instagram.com/cyclewise

Are you using a trainer tire? If not, you should.

When I pulled out my trainer this year, I was too lazy to switch out the tire. I didn't have any failures like you're describing, but I quickly had a black streak of rubber on the carpet behind my bike/trainer. That didn't go over well. Also a lot of wheel slippage.

I did get a trainer tire for my road bike. My tri bike however is 650c and I can not find a trainer tire that size.

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God's in his heaven, alls right with the world -Nerv

Speaking to only the question of upgrading to direct drive, I 100% recommend it.
For reference I have the Saris H2 and have had it for 2 years.

High points

• No wheel slippage.
• Typically handles higher power intervals better.
• Set it and forget it. Attach bike and you are going.
• Less need for adjustments - my wheel on smart trainer seemed to need adjustments every time I put it back on and never felt the same each time. Direct drive you lock it on and you're ready.
• The flywheel provides a super smooth ride.
• ERG handles like a boss.
• The closest to riding on the road of any trainer I have used (classic fluid, smart magnetic wheel on and now direct drive).
• Handles huge jumps in power for speed or high rpm sets.
• Seems more accurate with power and speed.
• Feels solid to ride on. Wheel on trainers always felt a little wobbly and not as secure. I jump on the bike on my direct drive and it's rock solid.

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Ryan
http://www.SetThePaceTriathlon.com
http://www.TriathlonTrainingDaddy.com
I got plans - https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...dotcom#trainingplans

For me - switching from a dumb trainer to a smart trainer made a night and day difference in indoor riding - so much so that I went from using it only when absolutely needed to riding nearly all indoors.

I used to despise indoor riding, and only did it when absolutely necessary. I then graduated to using it just for workouts, but it was still awful. Then, in winter 2016-2017 I was training for an ultra triathlon (Ultraman) and knew I'd HAVE to train the majority of time indoors because of safety (light), and just being too cold in the northeast to be outside for 7-8 hour rides. I already was training with power meter pedals. I bought a wheel-on smart trainer and joined Zwift.

Having Zwift mimic the terrain like an outdoor ride kept me interested on rides that weren't workouts- those would have truly been dreaded on the old dumb trainer. Workouts still hurt, but I love using ERG mode to teach muscle memory at certain targets. It also keeps me honest during workouts - and I'm willing to take the hit that ERG doesn't teach you mental training to keep a certain wattage on your own. I enjoy the fun "game" aspect of it with sprints and KOMs, and timed laps, etc.

For super long rides (up to about 7.5 hours on the trainer) - Zwift isn't enough and I tend to watch moves or TV on a separate device.

Since then I've changed over from the Kickr Snap to the Kickr Core. I was able to get a deal on it and went for it. For me, the benefits of the direct drive are: no daily pumping of the tires and connection of the flywheel (saves a minute or two of setup), less wear on the tire (650 wheels dont have trainer tires as options), less "riding through sand" feeling that I'd sometimes get at high resistance, and less tire slippage during sprints and really high inclines. I like the "feel" of direct drive better than the wheel-on one.

I ride indoors 3-4 days a week, and all of it is indoors right now. It's too dark before and after work during the week. When spring comes, I will likely do all rides indoors except my one longer one, and even then I'll wait until that goes over 2 hours. I supposedly have an ironman in late August, if Canada lets US people in.

Well I did it. Just ordered the Elite Suito. I also discovered the DIY rocker plate Facebook group and it looks like I can build a rocker plate for about $100. I just might have to do that.

Thanks again so much for everyones feedback. I love that slowtwitch is still a place where you can get real advice / opinions on tri related things without lots of garbage.

Cheers and happy training!

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God's in his heaven, alls right with the world -Nerv

I had a fluid wheel on trainer that I despised because it was very, very noisy and not terribly stable when I was trying to stand on the pedals. I only used it once or twice and then stuck it in a closet until my wife decided to ride on it while I was at work. Even she quit using it after a while saying that it was hurting her hearing over time.

During the Christmas season before the COVID outbreak REI had a great sale on H3 direct drive trainers. I had just dropped out of remission for my cancer and I knew I would not be able to ride outside much for a while, so I was able to get the boss (aka wife), to agree to the purchase.

I wasn't able to ride much at first, but after the majority of the cancer treatments were done, I started riding and it was a serious game changer. I thought I knew how much fitness I had lost, but the H3 and Zwift really showed me how the truth; it was more than I thought.

Today I am almost where I was before I dropped out of remission, and I will be ahead of that before the riding season begins. I am already better on the hills because hills are hard to come by in my normal riding area and Zwift has a lot of them. I have always wanted to ride some of the more spectacular century rides and I can now envision that happening. I plan on the Assault on Mt. Mitchel AND the Cheaha Challenge (12K and 13K of climbing respectively) in 2022 and I am thinking about going out to CA and CO the following year to try those inclines.

For me, there is no way that a dumb trainer could do what my H3 has done. I look forward to riding on my trainer now, and vary the training each day that I ride to fit my training plan. I don't do the Zwift workouts, I prefer to use the system freestyle, just a ride with the power displayed and then select the route that will give me the workout that I need.

My first century ride in 3 years will be this May, riding on the Natchez Trace, with two more centuries this year if my body will allow. I could not even dream of that without the versatility of a smart trainer and the ability to make realistic riding possible indoors. Even my wife agrees it was a very smart buy, and now wants one for herself so that she can ride with me virtually and simultaneously. So I will be looking to sales on smart trainers pretty soon if they are available.

Dude thanks so much for sharing. My wife had a vicious battle with breast cancer a few years back. She's in remission now too! I had no clue the damage that chemo does to a person. Unless you have been through it or taken care of someone going through it, its hard to comprehend. Thats so awesome that you have gotten so much back. My wife, I call her my primary sponsor instead of the boss, is still struggling with fatigue but is worlds better than she was at the end of treatment. The whole thing really changed both our perspectives. Every day with her is a gift and an opportunity that should not be wasted.

Enjoy your riding and I hope you have many many more centuries and other adventures ahead!

Cheers!

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God's in his heaven, alls right with the world -Nerv

To solve that problem, I got a cheap wheel and extra cassette with a normal tire and used that with my 650c bike. Replace tire as needed, no wear and tear on your usual race wheel/cassette.

How much is this? Apple TV device seems to be around $150 and Isn’t there a monthly subscription cost?

I think you have it backwards. If you already have a powermeter, then I think a basic trainer is more likely to suffice. But, if don’t have power on your bike, then going to direct drive will be much more of an upgrade.

There’s a monthly subscription cost for the Apple TV streaming service. But this doesn’t apply to Zwift. It would just be device cost and Zwift subscription.

So once you buy the Apple TV device you have access to the zwift app and zwift will be on your tv that is connected to the Apple TV device?

Yea. You download the Zwift app onto Apple TV (I think it has to be the Apple TV 4K or newer). The Zwift app is free. You then login to Zwift and start connecting sensors, etc.

Thanks; this does sound like the most simple/cost effective way to get zwift onto something bigger than a phone.

Oh yeah, wheel slippage! I forgot about that. For that reason alone direct drive is a huge advantage. It's a small detail and can be overlooked. nice call out! I also completely agree with this short list of advantages.

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Hustle City is a story-driven, cycling game that rewards fitness, creativity and nerves of steel. Apply to test the beta @ http://ridehustlecity.com

http://ridehustlecity.com
Instagram @ridehustlecity