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George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press.
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What a great time this would be for out illustrious President George Bush to call out to the press…and DEMAND twelve survivors from a coal mine!!! The idiot liberal press gets to sit there looking for someone to blame…certainly not their fault someone (and they will find someone to blame) gave the PRESS bad information??? (can you say “bad intelligence”) So…when the press is lead to believe something, that is no fault of their own…they can report it all they want – even the headline of my local news paper has “Miracle” on it…nice. Who here thinks that the press will learn a lesson from this? I don’t.



Would be great for George to sit in the Oval office and ask the Press to please please show where these survivors are...he wont though, he has to much class.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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certainly not their fault someone (and they will find someone to blame) gave the PRESS bad information??? (can you say “bad intelligence”)

If you are trying to draw a parallel between the bad information received in a crisis as rescue workers were desperately trying to find the victims, and intelligence that was supposed to indicate that WMD existed (intelligence gathering that took years by the way) you are really scratching at the bottom of the barrel to defend Bush.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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you are really scratching at the bottom of the barrel to defend Bush.


LOL...it is about the same...someone yelled fire in a theater...now, who do you blame when the fire cheif arrives? If you cant see the parallels, you my friend have been blinded by the liberal press. Sometimes people can only give their read on a given situation with the best information that they have been given.

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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it is about the same...someone yelled fire in a theater...now, who do you blame when the fire cheif arrives? If you cant see the parallels, you my friend have been blinded by the liberal press.

Unless of course there was intelligence that was purposely discarded or ignored (oops)....Time to think of another theory.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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Are you so ignorant you dont get that the press has AGAIN spouted off half baked stories that they never ever recind? Now, they are in a pickle...they cant go off about this one and just let it fall off the plate later in the week...they have finally bitten off more than they can chew...I guess the "informant" was an overheard cell phone conversation...what a great source!

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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I guess the "informant" was an overheard cell phone conversation...what a great source!


Kind of like Chalabi, the source for the WMD. Now that was a great source. A man convicted of money-laundering, and someone trying to get elected to the Presidency of Iraq, and he is used as the main source of intelligence, because he is considered independent. Now that is a great source.

I'm not apologizing for the press, in this case as in many others they are a disgrace, racing to sell news clips/newspapers but to draw a parallel between that and the purposeful manipulation on pre-war intelligence is simply unfounded.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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If you really think minute by minute press reporting is comparable to the process that is supposed to go into deciding to go to war, then you clearly have zero comprehension of what goes on in our government with regard to national security.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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What a great time this would be for out illustrious President George Bush to call out to the press…and DEMAND twelve survivors from a coal mine!!! The idiot liberal press gets to sit there looking for someone to blame…certainly not their fault someone (and they will find someone to blame) gave the PRESS bad information??? (can you say “bad intelligence”

Won't happen, as we all know that the press always gets at least two confirmations from other sources before they ever report something in the press as part of their permanent record.

Oh wait, except for when Dan Rather got itchy reporting about Bush's Reserve duty with the fake documents.

edit: Oh, and I guess when Newsweek screwed up reporting that U.S. interogators were flushing the Koran down toilets, setting off riots and killings in places like Pakistan. Well, you know, if coulda been true, maybe ...

Anyway, the press has already implemented their standard default damage control procedure of quoting "officials" who are starting an investigation as to how the wrong information was provided, which is worded such as to imply that either mine officials or state officials were responsible, or at the very least deflects any responsibility from the press. After all, the press doesn't make news, it covers it remaining completely impartial. Well maybe except for Dan. ;-)


Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)
Last edited by: parkito: Jan 4, 06 15:20
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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"If you really think minute by minute press reporting is comparable to the process that is supposed to go into deciding to go to war, then you clearly have zero comprehension of what goes on in our government with regard to national security. "

Slowguy, way to cut to the chase...

WRT to the press, I can find a conservative counterpart to every news outlet you would call liberal. This is a good thing; I think it's very dangerous to get all news from one point of view.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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So you're suggesting that the press be held to the same level of accountability as the president? Last I checked, the president only barely, after about a couple of years, accepted blame for going to war on faulty information.

I think going to war is a bit more serious than reporting 12 people are alive that really aren't.

Besides, shouldn't you be calling the miners idiots for choosing to be down in a dangerous mine anyway?
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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Record10Carbon



Your goal in life is to be a jerk…you are not a good person.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, why report about joyous relatives streaming out of a church, with bells ringing, saying "They're alive!! They're alive!!" If they didn't take the pulses of the people, they shouldn't report anything. Hell, they reported that these were "relatives" crying about the deaths. Did they ask to see drivers licenses? Any DNA tests being done? I agree. All ridiculous.

NOW...the damn liberal, pro-Israeli NYT's is reporting that Sharon has had a stroke and talking about what that might mean to Middle East politics. Have any of their reporters actually gone and seen him on his hospital bed? I'm guessing not. CNN is saying he is "fighting for his life"...can they see him doing that. THIS IS SILLY. Reporting hearsay. They report a Palestinian says this is a "gift from god". Anyone confirm this, anyone see gift wrap or a card?

Bush should make that hospital wheel him out into the street so we can be sure....see if they're telling the truth.

Now they're reporting that the largest prime number has been found. Think any of them got a calculator out to check it? I'm guessing not...
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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hmm. you and aj seem pertty desperate lately.

I 'm glad to see that.


_______________________________________________________________

"the trouble with normal is - it always gets worse"

- Cockburn
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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Mining company chief expresses regret over `miscommunication'
BY CHARLES SHEEHAN AND TIM JONES
Chicago Tribune

SAGO, W.Va. - Amid outrage over conflicting reports from the deadly Sago mine disaster, the mining company's top executive said Wednesday he regretted allowing family members to believe for hours that their loved ones had survived.

A choked-up Ben Hatfield, chief executive of International Coal Group, said company officials mistakenly allowed family jubilation over erroneous reports that the miners were alive "to go on longer than it should have."

"We sincerely regret the manner in which events unfolded this morning," said Hatfield, who blamed "miscommunication" for the stunning and heartbreaking turn of events early Wednesday.

"I don't think that anyone had a clue how much damage was about to be created and we truly regret that," he said.

Hours later Wednesday night, about 200 people from the towns surrounding the mine gathered for a candlelight vigil.

The one miner who survived, Randal McCloy, 27, was in critical condition in a Morgantown, W.Va., hospital with a collapsed lung and dehydration but showed no signs of brain damage or carbon monoxide poisoning, a doctor said.

Hatfield's remarks provided the first, partial explanation of what happened after rescue teams had reached the miners. National news reports - including TV reports by CNN and Fox News and stories in early editions of the Chicago Tribune, New York Times, Washington Post and other daily papers - told of the seemingly miraculous survival of 12 miners who had been trapped underground for more than 41 hours.

Three hours later, though, the joyous celebrations and the pealing of bells at the Sago Baptist Church abruptly ended as company officials shocked waiting family members and friends with the news that 11 of the 12 remaining miners were dead. The body of a 13th miner had been found earlier Tuesday night.

The grim task of piecing together what happened - and what went wrong - began Wednesday.

The cause of the explosion early Monday that killed the dozen miners is still not known, Hatfield said. The miner whose body was found first was killed by the blast, but the cause of death of the other 11 was unknown. How long the huddled miners survived was not disclosed.

Beyond that, though, there is confusion about the critical three hours between the rescuers' discovery of the miners and the disclosure to the families of their fate. No one apparently knows who spread the erroneous information. Unidentified people showed up at a church, supposedly telling those gathered there that rescued miners were on their way. All of this, as well as the hunger for a happy ending, fanned hours of journalistic fiction.

Hatfield said rescue teams reported finding 12 miners alive Tuesday night at 11:45 p.m. EST. Moments later the news spread via "stray cell phone conversations," Hatfield said. West Virginia Gov. Joe Manchin, who lost an uncle in a 1968 mine disaster and who earlier Tuesday said it would take a miracle to find the miners alive, heard the unexpected news at the Sago Baptist Church.

"I was sitting with families and speaking with family members. There's two rooms in the church and when one room broke out in euphoria and everyone saying `What happened, what happened?' - that's when someone said, `They found them, they're alive,'" Manchin recalled. "I looked at our communications people and I looked at my security and said, `Have we had that confirmed, do we know anything about that?' And they said, `No.'"

Then there was a stampede to the door and the church bells started ringing. The sense of gloom that had settled over this small mining community suddenly gave way to joy, with men giving each other bear hugs and people shouting "Praise the Lord."

"They (families) kept saying `12 are alive, 12 are alive.' I looked at my detachment again and I said, `Have we confirmed that?' And we didn't," Manchin said.

After praying for more than two days for a miracle, there was no stopping this miracle, even if it wasn't true. Within minutes - at 11:52 p.m. EST - the Associated Press issued an alert on its news wire, reporting family members saying the 12 miners were alive. There was no confirmation of the report from International Coal Group, which, conspicuously, would remain silent for the next three hours. Subsequent news reports would attribute the successful rescue to family members, most of them unnamed.

And the AP quoted the governor as saying, "They told us they have 12 alive."

Even among the celebrations there was confusion. Family members at the church said "outsiders" came in to say the miners were being brought there. No one knew who these people were.

Manchin said he left immediately for the mine and heard there were some "confusions" and "misstatements." But when asked before leaving the church if he could confirm the miners were alive, Manchin replied, "I said miracles do happen."

By midnight the first of the news stories would move, including a Tribune story in two early editions, under the headlines "12 found alive in coal mine" and "12 miners rescued." Those editions totaled 373,000 copies. Newsday headlined, "Miracle in the Mine." The Rocky Mountain News said "They're Alive!"

Within the half-hour, Hatfield knew he had a problem. The initial report from the rescue team that the miners were alive was followed, at 12:30 a.m., by news that only one miner, McCloy, had survived. Hatfield then wished for his own miracle, telling reporters during a Wednesday afternoon news conference that he "clinged to the hope that the other 11 might be comatose."

Hatfield said he did not know at that time if the dead could number 2 or 12. "We didn't believe there was any productive benefit" to giving people inconclusive information. So the misinformation lived on. A little more than an hour later, at 1:38 a.m., the deaths of 11 miners were confirmed. Still, there was no public statement from the company.

Hatfield, who said he had no idea who spread the erroneous word to relatives at the church, said he contacted the state police at 1 a.m., telling them to notify clergy at Sago Baptist Church to tell waiting families that "initial reports may have been inaccurate." That never happened. By 2:30 a.m., Hatfield said the company had completed a statement that would soon be delivered to unsuspecting family members at the church.

"Rightly or wrongly, we made what we believed to be the best decisions ... while working under extreme stress and physical exhaustion," Hatfield said.

When asked what he would have done differently, if he could, Hatfield said, "I would have personally gone to the church ... to say something may be wrong here."

The miracle in West Virginia officially ended shortly after Hatfield entered the church, shortly after 2:30 a.m. Chaos broke out, with screams and fights. The first word of the miners' deaths came from the Associated Press at 2:57 a.m. Wednesday, saying 11 of 12 miners initially thought to have survived were dead. The report cited family members.

Shortly after 3 a.m., the company confirmed what it had known for almost three hours.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Tridiot] [ In reply to ]
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LOL...it is shocking how ignorant some people are. You know what is even funnier, the fact that liberals cant seem to cope with the fact that they cant hold all people to the same level. They seem to have an indelible desire to try and find anything to blame on anyone for anything - BUT, if Bush is given bad information he is the devil - I cant wait to see liberals and the press blame Bush somehow for the deaths in this mine..."what could Bush have one?" - "what if Bush had more oil?" - "were any of the victims black like in New Orleans?" - blah blah blah...it is no wonder that a typical liberal makes MUCH less than a typical Republican...they are just not so bright, and in this country, the idiots struggle to get ahead and dont.



You liberals need to get past yourselves (Oh, did I mention that we run the the house, senate, and Oval office? So, who are there more of?)

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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Why are you rambling at me? I didn't post anything about politics or political parties.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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I think that was the most ignorant post ever. There's nothing sadder than blindly towing a party line.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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There's a difference between heat-of-the-moment coverage of a breaking story and a months-long process of trying to get people to believe what you do.

Reporting what is being stated and by who is different than ignoring concerns about the "intelligence" raised by many in-the-know and pushing only "your" facts.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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another Bush apologist
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [drflinn] [ In reply to ]
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I think that was the most ignorant post ever. There's nothing sadder than blindly towing a party line.




Not apologizing for the previous posters comments but some points he made were in fact on the mark as it related to Pesident Bush being responsible.

From Neal Boortz:

IT WAS GEORGE BUSH'S FAULT

There was one absolute certainty yesterday as the tragic story of the West Virginia mine disaster unfolded. By the end of the day the disaster was going to be blamed on either (a) global warming or (b) George Bush.

Well, it didn't take long. Yesterday somebody named Jack Spadaro, who is the former head of something called the National Mine Safety and Health Academy, went on Hannity and Colmes. The topic was the mining disaster in West Virginia that claimed the lives of 12 miners and left one in critical condition. He was asked what he made of the safety violations at the mine. His response: "This mine should have been closed." Fair comment.

Asked why, he said "There were too many serious violations and the record is very clear." At this point, that's obvious. So far, so good. Just another run-of-mill interview with a mining expert...the kind of thing we've heard over and over the past couple days. Then he took that extra step...the one we were all waiting for.

Asked to elaborate on why he thought the mine stayed open despite the violations, Mr. Spadaro actually said this: "I think it's because of the current Bush administration's policies toward mine operators and their reluctance to take the strong enforcement action that's sometimes necessary." That's right....those miners died because of, you guessed it, President George W. Bush's lack of enforcement action on mine operators. The president killed the miners!
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

Asked to elaborate on why he thought the mine stayed open despite the violations, Mr. Spadaro actually said this: "I think it's because of the current Bush administration's policies toward mine operators and their reluctance to take the strong enforcement action that's sometimes necessary." That's right....those miners died because of, you guessed it, President George W. Bush's lack of enforcement action on mine operators. The president killed the miners!
It's clear that this Administration (note: Administration, not Bush) favors industry groups like mining. If a mine such as this one wasn't closed, despite numerous violations and a very high accident/death rate, who is responsible? It's the regulatory agencies that are involved. Who is responsible for these agencies? I thought I recently heard Bush himself say that he, as head of the government, is responsible. So, by his own admission, he is indirectly responsible. Not directly, as the idiot author you cite claims in his straw man ("The president killed the miners!").

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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My post on ignorance was directed at Record10Carbon re: his coments about the "differences" between Liberals and Democrats as supposedly evidenced by average income, etc. We all know how helpful polarization and generalization are to the political process.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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This has got to be one of the saddest threads I have ever seen. You take a tragedy like that in WV and turn it into this? You're just as pathetic as that nut they found for Hannity.

By your reasoning Bush should more likely point at and make fun of the local church, because it was the church bells that were ringing well before any report was made in the media. Should Bush do that?

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You're not stuck in traffic. You ARE traffic.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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The idiot liberal press gets to sit there looking for someone to blame…certainly not their fault someone (and they will find someone to blame) gave the PRESS bad information??? (can you say “bad intelligence”) So…when the press is lead to believe something, that is no fault of their own…

The news was reported after 2 sources came through with confirmation. The first confirmation came from the Governor himself when a family member stopped him and asked point blank if there were 12 survivors and he said "yes." The family members then told the press.

Now do you think it is a liberal agenda? If you were sitting at an editors desk in New York, and received confirmation from a family member and the governor himself that 12 people were alive, would you sit on it or report it? How many more confirmations would you have received before you reported it?

Nice try though.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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That guy sounds like an idiot. We should leave it at that (though we can assume he's a Democrat and/or Liberal if we want to bring that element into this).

I'm not apologizing for his ignorance as to Bush's relationship to the mining industry, but most of the points he made were on the mark as Boortz notes. The infractions the mine had over the past 2 years bring to light what the regulations and regulatory powers have with regards to the actual safety of Americans. This isn't political crony-ism (unless someone can prove otherwise), this is average attempts by a business to not have the government rules prevent them from making a buck. Sometimes the government oversteps its bounds, sometimes the business breaks the laws. Sadly, honest hardworking Americans get caught up in it.

It appears that these deaths could have been prevented, or at least more of them could have been saved, had the rules/regulations been followed. I base this on what "experts" are saying on TV and the radio, and writing in print. The sad part is this is indicative of everyday life for hundreds/thousands of Americans, the rules get broken and people's lives or livelihoods get caught in the process. There are rules, meant to keep us and workers safe, being broken right now. I'm not trying to be an alarmist, because I think the system in general works pretty well, but clearly the past few years have taught us that while companies will eventually get caught (because of stupidity), you can lie/cheat/steal/fraud milliions and millions of dollars. I choose to look at these kinds of things as aberations and anomalies, but I don't blame those who look at all this stuff and feel like they can't make an impact.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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The news was reported after 2 sources came through with confirmation. The first confirmation came from the Governor himself when a family member stopped him and asked point blank if there were 12 survivors and he said "yes." The family members then told the press.


This is confirmation? "From the governor himself", not quite if it was relayed through a family member to the press. Let's see, a family member, highly emotionally involved, desparately wanting to hear good news is going to clearly and objectively hear anything anyone has to say to them after a long, difficult, emotional day? I don't think so. Not to mention press trying to scoop competitiors on a story and boost their rankings or rep. I have difficulty reading and correctly understanding my company insurance policies when I am trying to determine if a certain procedure or test is covered. I can only truly understand the policies when I don't have an immediate need. Ok, part of that is because those things are so difficult to read in the first place.

Is it such a stretch to believe when a lot is at stake, someone can interpret information incorrectly? If you were responsible for preventing the implementation of weapons that could kill thousands, or hundreds of thousands, wouldn't you think that there would be a lot of pressure and stress involved in every decision you make? How would the weight of that burden affect the weight you give the information?

R10C is having some fun with some of you, but the analogy is a lot closer to the truth than those same people realize. It is more a matter of scale and perspective


Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Tridiot] [ In reply to ]
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the republicans laissez-faire attitude toward abuses and irresponsibility on the part of business owners will bite them in ass before long. maybe this time, maybe next time.

however,as long as ignorant jerks keep saying ' oh it's the liberal media reporting this crap don't worry about it now get back in that mine'

it could be a while.

the myth of the liberal media is the greatest propaganda tool the right has ever come up with.


_______________________________________________________________

"the trouble with normal is - it always gets worse"

- Cockburn
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [zoomzoom] [ In reply to ]
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 the myth of the liberal media is the greatest propaganda tool the right has ever come up with.


Is it really?
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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[reply] the myth of the liberal media is the greatest propaganda tool the right has ever come up with.


Is it really?[/reply]

no i just said that for fun.

of course it is. the myth of the liberal media is perfect cover for any bullshit the right wants to pull.

someone calls em on it - it's just the 'liberal media'


brilliant. wish we'd thought of it.


_______________________________________________________________

"the trouble with normal is - it always gets worse"

- Cockburn
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [zoomzoom] [ In reply to ]
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from thenation.com:

That the media were biased against the Reagan Administration is an article of faith among Republicans. Yet James Baker, perhaps the most media-savvy of them, owned up to the fact that any such complaint was decidedly misplaced. "There were days and times and events we might have had some complaints [but] on balance I don't think we had anything to complain about," he explained to one writer. Patrick Buchanan, among the most conservative pundits and presidential candidates in Republican history, found that he could not identify any allegedly liberal bias against him during his presidential candidacies. "I've gotten balanced coverage, and broad coverage--all we could have asked. For heaven sakes, we kid about the 'liberal media,' but every Republican on earth does that," the aspiring American ayatollah cheerfully confessed during the 1996 campaign. And even William Kristol, without a doubt the most influential Republican/neoconservative publicist in America today, has come clean on this issue. "I admit it," he told a reporter. "The liberal media were never that powerful, and the whole thing was often used as an excuse by conservatives for conservative failures." Nevertheless, Kristol apparently feels no compunction about exploiting and reinforcing the ignorant prejudices of his own constituency. In a 2001 pitch to conservative potential subscribers to his Rupert Murdoch-funded magazine, Kristol complained, "The trouble with politics and political coverage today is that there's too much liberal bias.... There's too much tilt toward the left-wing agenda. Too much apology for liberal policy failures. Too much pandering to liberal candidates and causes." (It's a wonder he left out "Too much hypocrisy.")


well that's an accurate description of my feelings on the subject.

avoid responsibility. blame the ref.


_______________________________________________________________

"the trouble with normal is - it always gets worse"

- Cockburn
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [balanceguy] [ In reply to ]
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"You're not only an attention whore, but an idiot to boot."

You really shouldn't name call, especially when you haven't offerred anything better. There's a huge difference between being smart and having a smart mouth. I tell that to the youngsters I tutor and coach.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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"Asked to elaborate on why he thought the mine stayed open despite the violations, Mr. Spadaro actually said this: "I think it's because of the current Bush administration's policies toward mine operators and their reluctance to take the strong enforcement action that's sometimes necessary." That's right....those miners died because of, you guessed it, President George W. Bush's lack of enforcement action on mine operators. The president killed the miners!"

Huh ????

How about this - It's because of the Bush Administration's policy or lack of it in controlling state governments on traffic laws that should be made responsible for every traffic related death in the USA. All the people who died on the roads during the time he's in office ... George Bush killed them all!
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [zoomzoom] [ In reply to ]
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Naivete. That's the word for people who refuse to see the liberal media for what they are.

The liberal slant has been objectively identified in a study, most recently by two professors; one from UCLA and the other from Univ. of Missouri.

Clearly they have an agenda and clearly this past year provided many examples of how they attempted to foment this agenda.

Open your eyes and you too can see the light.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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"the myth of the liberal media is the greatest propaganda tool the right has ever come up with."

your answer - Is it really?

my answer - Without exception ...everything in life, in society, in politics, in personal behaviour requires a strike of balance. Either extreme is not the best.

This includes the freedom of press. Total unbridled freedom of press is NOT a good thing.

I challenge anyone to come up with a viable exception to my without exception statement above.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [kangaroo] [ In reply to ]
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You may wish to rephrase your challenge. It doesn't make sense. What is it exactly you are asking?
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [zoomzoom] [ In reply to ]
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"The liberal media were never that powerful, and the whole thing was often used as an excuse by conservatives for conservative failures."

Bingo.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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[font "Arial"][size 3]The news was reported after 2 sources came through with confirmation. The first confirmation came from the Governor himself when a family member stopped him and asked point blank if there were 12 survivors and he said "yes." The family members then told the press.[/size][/font]

[font "Arial"][size 3]Now do you think it is a liberal agenda? If you were sitting at an editors desk in New York, and received confirmation from a family member and the governor himself that 12 people were alive, would you sit on it or report it? How many more confirmations would you have received before you reported it?[/size][/font]

What ever happened to reporting on what was actually happening instead of listening to 2 people who aren't even in the mines. In my opinion, nothing should be reported until the reporter sees it. Too many media types nowadays just want to be the first to report something. I don't care which one was the first, I want to watch or read the one who is the most accurate. And none of them are doing that nowadays. They report on heresay and conjecture far too much. Unless I see what is going on, I don't listen to any reporter.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Startmeup] [ In reply to ]
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And that agenda would be what? Do all the press corps from coast to coast meet monthly to discuss the agenda or do they just send out a memo via email? Do you have any inkling the coordination that would be needed for such a nefarious agenda to actually exist? How does one "objectively" measure something that is inherently subjective? What is the metric used to determine "liberal bias"? How does the international press factor into this? With such obvious liberal bias and assuming a close correlation between liberal and Democrat, why was Clinton raked over the coals so consistently? Wouldn't there have been more favorable coverage?

The media is anti-establishment. And they are incompetent. Some are conservative and some are liberal. The drum beat of "liberal bias" in the media is a form of plausible deniability writ large...but at best, it is waaaaay overblown.




f/k/a mclamb6
Last edited by: mclamb6: Jan 5, 06 10:04
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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Not according to the study. It was objectively shown the liberal bias of the media.

No, it's not way overblown. And yes, they do speak to each other, ie., the WP talks to the NYT and the NYT talks to the LAT. Do you think they operate in a vacuum?

The fact is that the majority of the press as well as academia are left oriented. They continue to push their agendas in the papers and in college classrooms.

I take it you don't read the NYT or you would see what's going on with its own omboudsman. Even he doesn't believe half the stuff they're printing.

The list goes on and on. Fortunately, only the left believes its drivel.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Startmeup] [ In reply to ]
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So in other words, you have absolutely no response to any of the questions I asked. Duly noted.

I particularly like how you now threw in academia as pushing this nefarious agenda...what a joke. If I wanted to find a liberal professor, I could find a liberal professor. If I wanted to find a conservative professor, I could find a conservative professor. This tin hat stuff is amusing.




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Startmeup] [ In reply to ]
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The challenge is very clear. Can you suggest a situation where balance is not the right choice?


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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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I can see you don't really follow the news and/or what's been going on within academia. It's a rather naive comment to say that you could find a conservative professor if you wanted to.

This all sounds like it's news to you. Welcome to reality. I'm not sure where you've been, but the only people who haven't accepted that there isn't a left tilt to the media and academia are those on forums apparently.

It's not like it's any secret. But you must read in order to know that.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
And that agenda would be what? Do all the press corps from coast to coast meet monthly to discuss the agenda or do they just send out a memo via email? Do you have any inkling the coordination that would be needed for such a nefarious agenda to actually exist? How does one "objectively" measure something that is inherently subjective? What is the metric used to determine "liberal bias"? How does the international press factor into this? With such obvious liberal bias and assuming a close correlation between liberal and Democrat, why was Clinton raked over the coals so consistently? Wouldn't there have been more favorable coverage?
You weren't paying attention to the whole CPB thing, where that consultant was surreptitiously hired to check for liberal bias on "Now with Bill Moyers" and other PBS shows. His standard? If the person disagreed with the Bush Administration, it counted as a liberal point of view. Even if the person saying it was Republican Chuck Hegel. I'm not making this up.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Startmeup] [ In reply to ]
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mclamb6 did not say that Academia and the press were not left oriented. He said that you can find a conservative

professor if you want to. And this is true.


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"We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Startmeup] [ In reply to ]
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I can't help but notice you provide absolutely no back up to your statements and refuse to answer any of the questions I posed. Rather, you simply adopt a condescending tone and move on. Very telling.




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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This one has been beat to death. If you come from the position that there's no liberal bias in the media, then there's really not much to discuss since it reveals that you are naive and uninitiated.

I suppose that all the liberal story slants are just coincidences.

If it looks like a duck....
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [mclamb6] [ In reply to ]
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Hence the reputation of "Resident troll" at trinewbies...

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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Startmeup] [ In reply to ]
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Then please explain the conservative slants and "blood-in-the-water" type attacks against Clinton. This continued into Gore's presidential campaign as well.

As I said, the media is anti-establishment and incompetent. Bias is minimal.




f/k/a mclamb6
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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You weren't paying attention to the whole CPB thing, where that consultant was surreptitiously hired to check for liberal bias on "Now with Bill Moyers" and other PBS shows. His standard? If the person disagreed with the Bush Administration, it counted as a liberal point of view. Even if the person saying it was Republican Chuck Hegel. I'm not making this up.



PLEASE. You really aren't going to use Bill Moyers as your shining example are you?



"The major example of this is PBS omnipresence Bill Moyers. In 1999, Knight-Ridder reporter Frank Greve revealed than in his moonlighting job as the president of a liberal foundation (the Florence and John Schumann Foundation), Moyers was funding left-wing activists for campaign finance “reform”– and then interviewing them on his show, giving them national exposure at taxpayer expense, with no disclosure.

In June of 1999, Moyers hosted a PBS show ironically called “Free Speech for Sale,” and he opened with the views of three "reformers" -- Burt Neuborne of the Brennan Center for Justice, Charles Lewis of the Center for Public Integrity, and Bob Hall of Democracy South. But as Greve reported, Moyers "never revealed that their organizations have received a total of $2.6 million from the Schumann Foundation in the last five years."




OOPS.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Can you even read?

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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [zoomzoom] [ In reply to ]
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no i just said that for fun.

Well you are easily entertained aren't you?

of course it is. the myth of the liberal media is perfect cover for any bullshit the right wants to pull.
Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?


someone calls em on it - it's just the 'liberal media'

brilliant. wish we'd thought of it.




You are just to easy.

Koppel and Brokaw: Health care is a right

Larry Elder



Ted Koppel, who formerly hosted "Nightline," and Tom Brokaw, who formerly hosted the "NBC Nightly News," recently sat down with NBC's Tim Russert on "Meet the Press."

(By way of background, Russert, the senior vice president and Washington, D.C., bureau chief for NBC News, once worked for New York Democratic Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan and New York Gov. Mario Cuomo. Meanwhile, across the dial, ABC promoted former Clinton aide George Stephanopolous of "This Week" to chief Washington correspondent at ABC News. But we digress.)

With Koppel and Brokaw's "retirement," one wonders whether they might be careless and reveal their liberal bias in favor of big government, high taxes and regulation. They didn't disappoint. Remember former Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry said, "Health care should be a right, not a privilege"? Koppel and Brokaw apparently agree.

Koppel: " . . . [W]e have been priding ourselves on having the best medical care in the world -- and you know something? You can get the best medical care in the world, he can get the best medical care in the world, I can. Most Americans can't. And there are 43 million Americans who aren't getting any medical care at all. That is a scandal."

Note Koppel made no distinction between those without medical care and those without medical insurance.

Russert should have said, "I think you mean there are 43 million Americans without medical insurance. And even the term 'American' should be taken with a grain of salt. For, out of the 43 million, this includes approximately 10 million people here illegally. Furthermore, the 43 million includes a large number of young, healthy Americans who decided to keep the money otherwise spent on premiums. And of that 43 million, Ted, approximately 20 million go without health-care insurance for four months or less. So when you get down to it, the hard-core number of Americans without health-care insurance is probably 10 to 15 million Americans, and out of a population of nearly 280 million, do we really want to call this a crisis?"

Russert might have continued, "Furthermore, Ted, by law, any hospital that accepts government funds -- including Medicare and Medicaid -- must treat indigents in its ER. And don't forget about Medicaid, under which poor people get health care through taxpayers. To say nothing of free clinics found in virtually every city, no- or low-cost vaccination programs, and programs under which drug companies give free drugs to those who cannot afford it." But Russert said nothing.

Now, on to Mr. Brokaw.

Brokaw: "That [medical care] is getting attention at least, where people are trying to come to grips with that. And what was so stunning to me was that the Bush administration, after winning a very sizeable popular vote in the 2004 election, put as its highest priority the reform of Social Security and not health care in America, because I thought that's where most people were concerned."

I almost fell out of my chair.

Honestly, did Brokaw, following Bush's victory in 2004, expect the president to announce "Hillarycare" as his top priority!!??? Yeah, Kerry promised this, but the president promised to reform Social Security. Pardon Bush for attempting to fulfill a campaign promise. And pardon Bush for at least voicing Republican principles that our health-care system suffers from too much government interference, rather than too little.

One more word about the former "Nightline" host's "Meet the Press" interview: Remember, Koppel said, you have the best medical care, Tim, and you do, Tom, and I do, but most Americans don't. News flash for Mr. Koppel: Super-rich guys like you possess the power to get more, bigger, better, faster. That's why so many people aspire to wealth.

This goes to the huge issue of media bias and its influence on how people feel, think and vote. Two years ago, a UCLA political scientist named Tim Groseclose studied media bias. He certainly anticipated a leftward tilt, "because surveys have shown that reporters tend to vote more Democrat than Republican." But the magnitude of the leftward bias surprised even him. His co-author, Jeff Milyo, said, "There is a quantifiable and significant bias in that nearly all of them [major media outlets] lean to the left."

Brokaw and Koppel's attitudes explain the number of "news" pieces showing the allegedly excellent health-care coverage Europeans and Canadians receive. This explains why, for example, during televised discussions over health care, you rarely see a free market talking head opposing price controls, pushing for less regulation and urging more private sector competition.

No, Koppel, Brokaw and Russert (by his silence), effectively say: Health care is a right; taxpayers are morally obligated to pay for it; and Bush turned his back on voters by not supporting Hillarycare.

But then, there's no such thing as media bias.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, thanks for that witty repartee. I don't think I could've come up with such a retort.
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Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Startmeup] [ In reply to ]
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This is too easy..

In its December 13 edition, the Weekly Standard reports that a pair of university professors has employed a unique research technique that is precise enough to assign actual bias values to each media outlet examined.



Developed by Tim Groseclose of UCLA and Jeffrey Milyo of the University of Missouri, the study is called, “A Measure of Media Bias,” and it reportedly measures with some objectivity the political leanings of publishers and broadcasters of hard news.



According to Robert J. Barro, the Paul M. Warburg Professor of Economics at Harvard University, who discussed the project with the Standard, the professors “use a clever statistical technique to construct an objective measure of conservative or liberal bias in the news coverage of major U.S. television and radio stations, newspapers, magazines and the Internet.”



Barro, who is also a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, said the study illustrates “that the liberal inclination of the mainstream media is clear.”



Barro explained to the Standard that Groseclose and Milyo have developed a variation of the ratings of U.S. Congressional voting records issued by Americans for Democratic Action (ADA). It’s a 0-100 scale – the higher the score, the more liberal the position.

The well known rating system – when applied to the congress – uses a calculus that among other things determines how often congressmen and senators favorably mention 200 prominent think tanks in speeches. Those lawmakers referring favorably to conservative think tanks achieve a score skewed to the conservative or lower end of the ADA scale. Those referring favorably to liberal think tanks move up the scale – into the more liberal zone.



The researchers simply gauged the tendency of 20 prominent media outlets to cite favorably those same think tanks in news stories. The theory is that Media outlets, like the lawmakers, which refer favorably to conservative or liberal think tanks, move up and down the scale accordingly.



Whether the alchemy is foolproof or not, the results are telling. According to Groseclose and Milyo, the most liberally biased news product is the Wall Street Journal, with a rating of 85.1.



The New York Times’ rating of 73.7 puts it even with Dan Rather and the CBS Evening News – the most biased news program on television.

Meanwhile, Fox News with Brit Hume and The Washington Times rank as the most conservative, with ratings of 39.7 and 35.4 respectively.

Some mainstream outlets came out of the alchemy as very middle-of-the-road. For example, ABC’s Good Morning, America scored a rating of 56.1; CNN News Night with Aaron Brown a 56.0; and the NewsHour with Jim Lehrer a 55.8 rating.

The only Internet journalist put through the ringer, Matt Drudge and his popular “DrudgeReport,” was just left-of-center, with a rating of 60.4.

Here’s a run down on how top media outlets scored:



  • Wall Street Journal 85.1

  • New York Times 73.7

  • CBS Evening News 73.7

  • Los Angeles Times – 70.0

  • CBS Early Show – 66.6

  • Washington Post – 66.6

  • Newsweek – 66.3

  • NPR Morning Edition – 66.3

  • US News and World Report – 65.8

  • Time Magazine – 65.4

  • NBC Today Show – 64.0

  • USA Today (the country’s No. 1 newspaper, in terms of circulation) – 63.4

  • NBC Nightly News – 61.6

  • ABC World News Tonight 61.0

  • DrudgeReport 60.4

  • ABC Good Morning America 56.1

  • CNN with Aaron Brown 56.0

  • News Hour with Jim Lehrer 55.8

  • Fox News with Brit Hume 39.7

  • Washington Times 35.4



    A paradox, noted Barro, was that the major media is even more biased to the left than Democratic members of Congress.

  • Quote Reply
    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [jhc] [ In reply to ]
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    Can you even read?



    Can you even make sense? What are talking about?
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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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    In Reply To:
    You weren't paying attention to the whole CPB thing, where that consultant was surreptitiously hired to check for liberal bias on "Now with Bill Moyers" and other PBS shows. His standard? If the person disagreed with the Bush Administration, it counted as a liberal point of view. Even if the person saying it was Republican Chuck Hegel. I'm not making this up.



    PLEASE. You really aren't going to use Bill Moyers as your shining example are you?



    "The major example of this is PBS omnipresence Bill Moyers. In 1999, Knight-Ridder reporter Frank Greve revealed than in his moonlighting job as the president of a liberal foundation (the Florence and John Schumann Foundation), Moyers was funding left-wing activists for campaign finance “reform”– and then interviewing them on his show, giving them national exposure at taxpayer expense, with no disclosure.

    In June of 1999, Moyers hosted a PBS show ironically called “Free Speech for Sale,” and he opened with the views of three "reformers" -- Burt Neuborne of the Brennan Center for Justice, Charles Lewis of the Center for Public Integrity, and Bob Hall of Democracy South. But as Greve reported, Moyers "never revealed that their organizations have received a total of $2.6 million from the Schumann Foundation in the last five years."




    OOPS.


    No, I'm not actually using Bill Moyers as an example of anything. Can you read any more, Bob? I was referring to a conservative political hack (Ken Tomlinson) who hired a consultant ostensibly to measure liberal bias on a number of PBS programs; said consultant used as his measure of "liberal" whether the person disagreed with the policies of the Bush Administration. It could as well have been "Sesame Street" he examined. The point is that the consultant used a ridiculous yardstick to measure "liberal bias".

    You got that? Nothing to do with Bill Moyers. Everything to do with how "liberal bias" was purportedly measured.

    Oh, Tomlinson was unceremoniously thrown out on his ass this fall for this and other misdeeds.

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    "Go yell at an M&M"
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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Startmeup] [ In reply to ]
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    There is no doubt that the media in general are left biased. However, if you do read the paper written by

    the researchers http://www.polisci.ucla.edu/...close/Media.Bias.pdf and if you know how google

    works, you realize that the way the researchers designed their measure does not take into consideration self

    references which basically means that you can artificially increase the score by voting for yourself (which

    was an issue in the initial design of the rank a page had in google). Therefore, if you have more of one type of

    'something' (say a liberal) you increase the risk of self reference.

    It does not mean that the media is left biased. It only means that the numbers given are likely to be smaller than

    what they are giving.


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    "We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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    OK got it. I can read fine. I just misunderstood the intent. Point taken.
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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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    "There is no doubt that the media in general are left biased. "

    You said it all
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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Startmeup] [ In reply to ]
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    You have a very selective way to read things.



    Now, I really said everything.


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    "We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [armytriguy] [ In reply to ]
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    In Reply To:
    Can you even read?



    Can you even make sense? What are talking about?


    See Ken's post below yours.

    If you dont want to look like a dolt, take to seconds to think before responding with some prefabricated rant

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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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    You did state that the media has a liberal bias. This we know to be true. What's also clear is that the study speaks for itself without your added attempt to characterize it (which, by the way, is incorrect).
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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Startmeup] [ In reply to ]
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    I would love to hear your explanation of what is in this paper. Did you read it? Are you familiar with the way google

    works to rank pages? Please, enlighten us.


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    "We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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    It's clear by your continued referral to the left leaning google and its ranking system that you have clearly missed the meaning and validity of the work done by the noted authors.

    I read the paper which, by the way, came out a year ago. Did you read it? The only thing that needs to be illuminated is your understanding of statistics.

    It's really rather simple. Mountain, meet molehill.
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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Startmeup] [ In reply to ]
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    It is clear that you are absolutely clueless. I could also bet that among the several thousand people registered on this forum, very few if any, have an understanding of statistics as deep as mine.


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    "We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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    Except, it appears, in this case.

    I believe that I'll follow Robert J. Barro, the Paul M. Warburg Professor of Economics at Harvard University, who stated that the professors “use a clever statistical technique to construct an objective measure of conservative or liberal bias in the news coverage of major U.S. television and radio stations, newspapers, magazines and the Internet.”



    Barro, who is also a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, said the study illustrates “that the liberal inclination of the mainstream media is clear.”

    I'm gonna go with his knowledge of stats in lieu of yours.
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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Startmeup] [ In reply to ]
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    So Harvard guarantees truth? Hillarious. The sentence 'use a clever statistical technique etc.' certainly doesn't imply that the results are meaningful and correctly applied.

    Your comment about 'the left leaning google' is funny too. Basically what is described in the paper is a rather simple approach used in game theory. It is definitely not unique, was not invented by the authors, however it was applied to the case of measuring left or right bias by the authors. So, they are only using a rather old approach to their problem of measuring bias.

    Now, the way Google ranks pages uses a much smarter strategy that has nothing to do with being left or right. It has to do with markov chains and a bit of graph theory. It is designed to prevent artificial inflation of a score when one 'player' A votes for B who then votes for A. Nothing in the approach used in the paper to measure bias prevents this.

    Then of course, I do not expect you to understand any of this. It's more for those here who can actually think on their feet.

    The funny thing is that you do not even realize that I agreed with you that the media is left biased. It's obvious. I am just saying that the paper you referred to is likely to exagerate the scores in favor of 'more liberal' because it omits critical elements to prevent circular voting.


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    "We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Startmeup] [ In reply to ]
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    "You may wish to rephrase your challenge. It doesn't make sense. What is it exactly you are asking? "

    cut n paste - Without exception ...everything in life, in society, in politics, in personal behaviour requires a strike of balance. Either extreme is not the best.

    My point is every aspect of our lives requires balance and either extreme is not good eg full freedom of the press v total censorship. Needs to be something in between somewhere. eg full uncontrolled democracy and freedom to whatever one wants vs dictatorship. Over politeness to the extent of pandering as opposed to rudeness. Being a fat sedentary slob as opposed to someone whose obsessed in triathlon he forgets everything else.

    Find me an aspect of life where this doesn't apply and an extreme is better than a compromised balance.
    Quote Reply
    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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    No, you stated initially that you agreed with the proposition.

    By the way, exaggerate has two g's.

    Yes, I will believe this particular Harvard professor. He's not just "a" Harvard prof. Oh, and remember,

    "figures lie and liars figure".

    how's that for "thinking on my feet" Mr. Malthus?
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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [kangaroo] [ In reply to ]
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    My point is every aspect of our lives requires balance and either extreme is not good

    Do you think your views on Muslims is balanced?

    __________________________________________________

    You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

    Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

    Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
    Quote Reply
    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Startmeup] [ In reply to ]
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    Oh please. I've worked for a major news organization. An agenda? Half the time the managers can't even agree on who's going to work the weekends, much less taking over the world!
    Quote Reply
    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Startmeup] [ In reply to ]
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    A quote is the best thing you can do to think on your feet?

    Let me suggest some good reading for you to understand what measurement means

    Krantz, Tverski, Suppes, Luce, Measurement theory. 1974.

    You can stick to volume 1.

    Although meaningfulness is only treated in volume III, I believe.


    "Mit der Dummheit kampfen Gotter selbst vergebens" (J.C.F von Schiller)


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    "We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe."
    Last edited by: JW von Goethe: Jan 5, 06 14:13
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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [JW von Goethe] [ In reply to ]
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    I did read the paper (which is why it took me a while to post) and I think the entire paper misses the point. After the appendix section is the graph showing representatives, media sources, and the part I think everyone missed. The average republican mark is at ~15 and the average democrat is at ~75 these are from memory so don't smash me on those two numbers.

    Almost all of the media outlets fall between them. Since bias is in the eyes of the beholder the republicans see most of the outlets to the left of them and the democrats see most of the outlets to the right so ... they both perceive bias ... Chicken little to world 'The sky is falling'. The other section of the report that is important is the part that details how biased doesn't mean untruthful or incorrect.

    I'm a flaming left-wing pinko commi and I think this report is OK. The media is liberal biased but if you read enough sources (my favorites are thewire.com, bbc.co.uk, cnn.com and I listen to NPR on my morning commute) you can almost see the forest for the trees.
    Quote Reply
    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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    In Reply To:
    The news was reported after 2 sources came through with confirmation. The first confirmation came from the Governor himself when a family member stopped him and asked point blank if there were 12 survivors and he said "yes." The family members then told the press.
    Are you sure about this? I saw a interview last night of the Gov on TV about this exact thing. He said (me paraphasing) that he was in the church when the news that everyone was alive broke, he heard the story himself and asked someone on his staff to confirm it. He then went on to say that he was never able to confirm it up until the point where it was announced that the 12 men had actually died. Now either the Gov lied in the interview I saw or your sources for this confirmation are wrong.

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    I'm just a 10 cent rider on a $2,500.00 Bike

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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [hasbeenswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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    that he was in the church when the news that everyone was alive broke, he heard the story himself and asked someone on his staff to confirm it.

    That is exactly what I heard. The article then said he went outside of the church on the way to confirm it and a lady approached him and asked "is it true that all 12 are alive" and he said "yes." That comment was overheard and reported to the media.

    The governor was asked about this and he said "he was caught up in the excitement of thinking they were alive."

    That's what I read this morning and I'll try to find the article on-line.

    Of course, all of this was reported so I'm not sure who to believe anymore.

    __________________________________________________

    You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

    Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

    Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
    Quote Reply
    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [hasbeenswimmer] [ In reply to ]
    Quote | Reply
    Are you sure about this?

    Okay, I found this from our paper, not on-line. The article was written by Allen G. Breed of the AP, and I'll quote what I read..

    ..."Manchin (Governor) had been in the church praying with the families when the unidentified man made the announcement (that all 12 are alive). He looked around at his troopers and communications people in puzzlement.

    "Have we confirmed that?" he asked. No, was the reply.

    Manchin told the families that he was going back over to the mine to get more information.

    Wanda Groves, the mother of trapped miner Jerry Groves, was walking beside Manchin when she stumbled. As the Governor helped the struggling woman regain her footing, Darlene Groves, the woman's daughter-in-law, touched the sleeve of the governor's leather jacket and asked him:"Are all 12 men alive?"

    Darlene Groves said the governor turned to her and said quietly, "Yes."

    Manchin would say later he got "caught up in the euphoria." But what was supposed to have been a personal exchange was overheard, and a private word of encouragement suddenly took the shape of official confirmation from the highest level of state government....

    __________________________________________________

    You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

    Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

    Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
    Quote Reply
    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Casey] [ In reply to ]
    Quote | Reply
    Wanda Groves, the mother of trapped miner Jerry Groves, was walking beside Manchin when she stumbled. As the Governor helped the struggling woman regain her footing, Darlene Groves, the woman's daughter-in-law, touched the sleeve of the governor's leather jacket and asked him:"Are all 12 men alive?"

    Darlene Groves said the governor turned to her and said quietly, "Yes."

    Manchin would say later he got "caught up in the euphoria." But what was supposed to have been a personal exchange was overheard, and a private word of encouragement suddenly took the shape of official confirmation from the highest level of state government....


    Well the good Gov managed to leave this part of the story out of his interview on TV, how convenient of him.

    Thanks for the clairification.


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    I'm just a 10 cent rider on a $2,500.00 Bike

    Quote Reply
    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [hasbeenswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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    Well the good Gov managed to leave this part of the story out of his interview on TV, how convenient of him.

    I have been waiting to see what comes of this. I hope it doesn't turn into a he said/she said but it appeared from the article that his words were overheard so it should prove interesting.

    I hate to put any blame on him because he was probably as hopeful as anyone and to have this come back to him would be unfortunate. The article I read was very long and detailed and it just pointed to an overall lack of communication without trying to implicate anyone. The writer did a very fair job and he was bending over trying to stay neutral and avoid putting blame on anyone.

    I feel badly for the Governor but the identity of the person who made the announcement that they were alive in the first place has not yet, to my knowledge, been revealed. It appears however, that the real miscommunication came from the rescuers wearing gas masks and their response was misquoted. I don't think there was ever any indication of purposefully misleading anyone.

    The other thing that should have been handled better was allowing the people to celebrate the news for over 2 hours, knowing that the outcome was not confirmed.

    __________________________________________________

    You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

    Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

    Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
    Quote Reply
    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Casey] [ In reply to ]
    Quote | Reply
    It appears however, that the real miscommunication came from the rescuers wearing gas masks and their response was misquoted. I don't think there was ever any indication of purposefully misleading anyone.


    I suspected this all along. I have been in many situations where I was wearing a simpe HEPA mask and had a hard time communicating becasue of the mask and background noise. I can't imagine doing the same in a full SCBA mask.

    The other thing that should have been handled better was allowing the people to celebrate the news for over 2 hours, knowing that the outcome was not confirmed.


    Yup that was a big mistake, huge on the people who really knew.

    With regard to the Media in general getting it wrong, it just seems it happens far to often these days.

    As evidence we have the

    Katrina 10,000 dead

    Katrina - murders in the convention center and super dome

    Dan Rather forged documents

    2004 Elections exit polling all going huge to Kerry

    2000 Elections calling Florida for Gore

    And on and on

    ----------------------------------------------------------
    I'm just a 10 cent rider on a $2,500.00 Bike

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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [Casey] [ In reply to ]
    Quote | Reply
    "Do you think your views on Muslims is balanced?"

    Yes -:)

    because I think (in fact I know first hand) most Muslims are not bad. In fact the cultures many belong to make them naturally very aphable and welcoming people, it's just that they are under a negative influence from their religion. Is recognizing existing facts for what they are and things happening around us everyday re-affirming these acts considered extreme?

    Same if I said Christians tend to be influenced to become religious direct salemen and women or that it's ridiculous for a celebate Catholic priest to give marital advice.

    If you have a white painted wall in your house and on seeing it I commented that it was white. Is that extreme or just a fact?

    If these things qualify as really extreme, since they are fact then you have called my bluff and won.

    Happy and Prosperous New Year ahead!
    Last edited by: kangaroo: Jan 5, 06 19:58
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    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [hasbeenswimmer] [ In reply to ]
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    Rather never forged a thing.

    Fox News, 9/5/05:
    "In New Orleans, Nagin upticked his estimate of the probable death toll in his city from merely thousands, telling NBC's "Today" show, 'It wouldn't be unreasonable to have 10,000.'" The Feds sent in something like 25,000 body bags.

    Not everything can be known with precision the instant it is happening. Contray to the ability many people here seem to have.
    Quote Reply
    Re: George Bush should point at, and make fun of the press. [trifolk] [ In reply to ]
    Quote | Reply
    I never said Rather forged anything, but he gladly and knowingly aired the forged info.

    If you want to defend the media coverage of Katrina have at it. It was filled with speculation and little fact checking

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    I'm just a 10 cent rider on a $2,500.00 Bike

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